NBA 2018-19: Dynasty Season 5; Can The Carrington Warriors Defend???
- Thread starter stringertom
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heftylefty
Hall of Fame
-NN-
G.O.A.T.
lol
T1000
Legend
The Raptors are a terrible matchup for GS without KD. Lol at thinking they won because the fix was in.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
They will always have the Alouettes
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Don't want to pick on the refs but the NBA really needs to do something about the officiating. And these are supposed to be the best refs chosen for the finals?!
Last night a player had established perfect defensive position (Lowry IIRC) and was knocked back hard on his ass and was still called for the defensive foul. Announcers were shocked when looking at the replay. Yes, it is a fast game but this was obvious in real-time as well.
What are these refs looking at? Used to think it was incompetence but when it is so blatant and frequent one wonders if the refs are crooked.
Bad officiating almost makes you not want to watch the game.
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Curry says he makes this shot all day long in practice...Had a pretty good look. But shot way off.
"The best shooter ever" needs to step up and do better in final shots.
Look at VanVleet hustle for the offensive rebound, with 6 seconds still left, while Curry just stands around.
"The best shooter ever" needs to step up and do better in final shots.
Look at VanVleet hustle for the offensive rebound, with 6 seconds still left, while Curry just stands around.
donquijote
G.O.A.T.
They have Canadiens and crazy about them.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Who?
donquijote
G.O.A.T.
Paranoid schizophrenic?
NonP
Legend
Yours truly is back to dispense his last words of wisdom on the 2019 NBA Playoffs. Before I go on, though, I'm beginning to think I really am something of a basketball genius. My crystal ball and analysis were on target this entire postseason, and like I said Vegas can thank its lucky stars I ain't a betting man! (Seriously, I do hope to coach a pro bball team someday.)
OK, enough self-fell@ting. Let's recap:
That "why-the-hell-not" delay was actually the right call. Not only were the refs simply doing their job the Dubs had a slim chance to tie/win it: Kawhi somehow misses the 1st FT but makes the 2nd, in which case Steph or whoever can throw a Hail Mary pass for a super-quick catch-and-shoot trey and pray for a miracle. Highly unlikely, yes, but crazier things have happened in sports.
TBF nearly all players fail more often than not in potential game-tying/winning shots. Agreed on his lack of hustle in the end, but he really should've tried for a better shot. 9.6 seconds is plenty of time for a good old-fashioned P&R, for one.
OK, enough self-fell@ting. Let's recap:
- As some of you know I've been pushing Kawhi as the real MVP for at least 3-4 years now, and if there were any lingering doubts as to his standing even at the end of this regular season the last two months should have quashed them for good. At the very least he's one of the two best players today (along with KD, whose current status is obviously very much up in the air), and if his passing and ball handling remain a tad suspect and he's not quite the transcendent scorer that MJ or Kobe was, well, nobody is (yes, including KD) and every ATG had a surmountable weakness or two (except His Airness, of course).
- Lowry showed once again why he's arguably the most important (or, if you prefer, most valuable) Raptor. Forget his game-high +/- (16, if you care to know) last nite - Toronto's ball movement is so much more fluid with him on the floor, and it's no surprise that GS's comeback began in earnest when Kyle met his nemesis yet again and had to be benched due to foul trouble. And I love the guy's hustle! Easily one of the most underappreciated players in the league, and perhaps its premier PG to boot (again, as opposed to best player at his position).
- Good on Nurse to revert to my wise counsel and give Ibaka one last moment to shine, especially since Gasol was again close to useless (how can a guy with his physique and talent be so damn soft?!) and badly needed someone to pick up the slack.
- Not so good on Nurse to all but sideline Green. I get that he had two bad outings in a row, but you're still looking at one of the best shooters in NBA Finals history who can also play pesky D, and yet in the most important game of the season you allow him a measly 17 minutes without a single shot attempt? SMH.
- Those detractors who still insist Draymond is good only because he plays in the "right system" (whatever that means) don't deserve to be taken seriously. Playing all but 4 of 48 minutes in the second elimination game of a grueling finals while posting 11 points, 19 boards(!) and 13 dimes - that's championship mettle no matter how you cut it. If the GS front office had any lick of sense they'd do everything in their power to keep DG on the roster (though that's looking rather dicey following the latest news that they still plan to offer both KD and Klay max deals, as they damn should).
- The same could be said of Iggy, the proverbial can-do-all sixth man that so many champs have relied on time after time (Kukoc with the 2nd 3-peat Bulls, Ginobili and then Diaw with the Spurs, Odom with the 2nd Phil-Kobe Lakers - the list goes on). But man, WTF is with his godawful shooting at the charity stripe? The guy managed to post an acceptable 35% from downtown but didn't even crack 40% (a truly dismal 37.8%) from the money line this postseason! This despite being a decent career FT shooter at 71%. And you thought Westbrook had it bad enough (like I said Russ actually shot a stellar 88.5% from the line vs. the Blazers, a big leap from his crap 65.6% in the regular season). Time to hit the practice court for Andre, if he's not calling it quits already.
- I still think Curry is the best pure shooter in NBA history, but his performance in this series is a good reminder that shooting and scoring aren't necessarily the same thing. Steph's relative lack of size and athleticism keeps him from developing a fuller bag of offensive tricks, and perhaps more importantly his defense has always fallen short of the elite benchmark set by the rest of the Hamptons Five. And this may be something of a heresy but Klay is the more explosive scorer between the two, which coupled with his superior D gives him more leverage to influence a game, especially in the money season.
- By a similar token let's dispense with the notion of home-court advantage, which is a textbook case of correlation ≠ causation: perhaps it's less an "advantage" than an indication that the team with a superior record is indeed the superior team in the first place. You don't need to have watched this series to recognize this blatant fallacy, though it should be axiomatic from experience that the supposed home-court advantage matters little at this level.
- Given what we've seen in the last two weeks it's hard not to acknowledge that Kawhi was right to sit out most of his last season with the Spurs. Yes, there always will be doubters and rumormongers even on your own team questioning your decision, but if your body fails to agree with your mind you should take it as a sign that you really are not ready yet. No need to feel obliged to anyone in what is ultimately business.
- Still hope Leonard signs with Toronto, though. And LA is definitely NOT the dream destination he might think it is! The reason why Kyrie spurned LBJ despite their tremendous success together boils down to this: when LeBron's team wins he gets almost all the credit, but when his team loses he emerges virtually scot-free. This is a guy whose agent isn't afraid to walk up to the frigging' league commissioner to get his coach replaced. (Yes, you read that right. Rich Paul reportedly talked to Adam Silver to gripe about Luke Walton.) You'll always be playing second fiddle as long as LBJ is around, and while that might work for Irivng or even Davis, Kawhi is simply too good to cede the floor to anyone at this point, let alone a near 35-year-old whose best days are behind him.
- I hope Toronto's success (and even OKC's own gambit for George, to a lesser extent) turns the NBA's usual crash-and-rebuild scheme upside down. Tanking is simply disrespectful towards other teams and of course the fans, and while it's true lots of things fell the right way at the right time for the Raptors there's no reason to believe at least some of their correct decisions can't be duplicated in the future.
That "why-the-hell-not" delay was actually the right call. Not only were the refs simply doing their job the Dubs had a slim chance to tie/win it: Kawhi somehow misses the 1st FT but makes the 2nd, in which case Steph or whoever can throw a Hail Mary pass for a super-quick catch-and-shoot trey and pray for a miracle. Highly unlikely, yes, but crazier things have happened in sports.
TBF nearly all players fail more often than not in potential game-tying/winning shots. Agreed on his lack of hustle in the end, but he really should've tried for a better shot. 9.6 seconds is plenty of time for a good old-fashioned P&R, for one.
NonP
Legend
Just an addendum (or two) before I call it a nite. (Thought about editing my last dissertation but figured I'd let my possible brain farts stand.) That final Curry trey seems to have been a carefully drawn play by Kerr:
https://sports.yahoo.com/were-warriors-thinking-stephen-curry-052054400.html
In which case the coach deserves much of the blame for the shot. I can see going with a proven champ in clutch time but Curry had been cold (by his standards) from the perimeter all series. Again a traditional P&R probably would've been better with almost 10 sec left.
And while there has been some wild talk of LBJ, Kawhi and Davis teaming up KL reportedly prefers the Clips as his top choice. Yes, even over the Raptors per Woz:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...s-top-the-list-thinks-raptors-have-work-to-do
Of course 6/30 is still two weeks away, and KL's own sis said he "loves Toronto" (though before game 6). Doubt he'll give it much thought before the parade.
https://sports.yahoo.com/were-warriors-thinking-stephen-curry-052054400.html
In which case the coach deserves much of the blame for the shot. I can see going with a proven champ in clutch time but Curry had been cold (by his standards) from the perimeter all series. Again a traditional P&R probably would've been better with almost 10 sec left.
And while there has been some wild talk of LBJ, Kawhi and Davis teaming up KL reportedly prefers the Clips as his top choice. Yes, even over the Raptors per Woz:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...s-top-the-list-thinks-raptors-have-work-to-do
Of course 6/30 is still two weeks away, and KL's own sis said he "loves Toronto" (though before game 6). Doubt he'll give it much thought before the parade.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
The great ones step up in the final seconds. If Curry wants to lay claim to "best shooter ever", he needs to do better when the game is on the line. Agreed that it makes no sense to be going for three when down by only one. IMO, that is a horrible call but as you say that is a reflection of Curry's limited athleticism which forces him to heave up a three when down by one.
Yes, there is a difference between a scorer and a shooter. Curry is likely the best three point shooter ever but he has struggled in final seconds. A GOAT needs to do better at crunch time. Compare and contrast Curry's numbers with LeBron and MJ.
Curry has gone 0-for-8 on go-ahead shots with less than 20 seconds left in his NBA playoff career. He's played 112 postseason games.
The latest miss in crunch time came when Curry was short on a potential game-winning three-pointer — off a well-designed Steve Kerr play with 10 seconds left and the Warriors trailing by one — a shot he's hit countless times throughout his career.
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NonP
Legend
Heh, Kawhi might be lying low now but the same can't be said of the Canucks:
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/basketball/nba/why-kawhi-leonard-should-stay-in-toronto-1.5175435
286 comments and counting. Pretty sure even last nite's report about the big win didn't attract as many comments (though that might well be because everyone was out celebrating). Wild!
No, the great ones step up at all times on both ends of the floor in the money season, and frankly judging a player's clutchness by whether or not he knocks down a go-ahead shot in the final 5 sec or so is very silly. I still remember the know-nothing talking heads blathering about how this particular stat "proves" LBJ is more clutch than Kobe and even MJ, which should tell you how much (or little) they actually understand the game of basketball. (The same clueless rationale governs said pundits' overrating of LBJ's D due to his SportsCenter-friendly chase-down blocks, but I digress.)
And I've seen that about Curry, and while it's not a good look for him we just agreed that this was not "a well-designed Steve Kerr play" but somehow the player is still getting flak for taking the shot as if on a whim. That's one thing, and another is that we can see Steph barely stops on the arc upon catching the pass before launching the fateful trey with Ibaka's hand in his face. I rather doubt either MJ or LBJ connects on many of those, provided that either even gets the shot off in the first place as neither has as quick a release as Steph. So why did he attempt such a low-% 3 to begin with? Is that because he didn't try harder to create more space or lose his guy, or maybe because, as that critical article itself notes, it's "a shot he's hit countless times throughout his career"? In other words we're dissing him for being too good a shooter to have failed, which is almost a compliment if you ask me. And though I don't know exactly how his other 7 go-ahead shots went down I bet those were considerably tricker or at least longer-range than MJ's or LBJ's.
To say he's "not clutch" for missing those shots (though the headline is somewhat kinder with its "struggled" angle) strikes me as myopic at best. Most sportswriters simply don't know what they're talking about, and Gleeson is no exception.
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/basketball/nba/why-kawhi-leonard-should-stay-in-toronto-1.5175435
286 comments and counting. Pretty sure even last nite's report about the big win didn't attract as many comments (though that might well be because everyone was out celebrating). Wild!
The great ones step up in the final seconds. If Curry wants to lay claim to "best shooter ever", he needs to do better when the game is on the line. Agreed that it makes no sense to be going for three when down by only one. IMO, that is a horrible call but as you say that is a reflection of Curry's limited athleticism which forces him to heave up a three when down by one.
Yes, there is a difference between a scorer and a shooter. Curry is likely the best three point shooter ever but he has struggled in final seconds. A GOAT needs to do better at crunch time. Compare and contrast Curry's numbers with LeBron and MJ.
Curry has gone 0-for-8 on go-ahead shots with less than 20 seconds left in his NBA playoff career. He's played 112 postseason games.The latest miss in crunch time came when Curry was short on a potential game-winning three-pointer — off a well-designed Steve Kerr play with 10 seconds left and the Warriors trailing by one — a shot he's hit countless times throughout his career.
No, the great ones step up at all times on both ends of the floor in the money season, and frankly judging a player's clutchness by whether or not he knocks down a go-ahead shot in the final 5 sec or so is very silly. I still remember the know-nothing talking heads blathering about how this particular stat "proves" LBJ is more clutch than Kobe and even MJ, which should tell you how much (or little) they actually understand the game of basketball. (The same clueless rationale governs said pundits' overrating of LBJ's D due to his SportsCenter-friendly chase-down blocks, but I digress.)
And I've seen that about Curry, and while it's not a good look for him we just agreed that this was not "a well-designed Steve Kerr play" but somehow the player is still getting flak for taking the shot as if on a whim. That's one thing, and another is that we can see Steph barely stops on the arc upon catching the pass before launching the fateful trey with Ibaka's hand in his face. I rather doubt either MJ or LBJ connects on many of those, provided that either even gets the shot off in the first place as neither has as quick a release as Steph. So why did he attempt such a low-% 3 to begin with? Is that because he didn't try harder to create more space or lose his guy, or maybe because, as that critical article itself notes, it's "a shot he's hit countless times throughout his career"? In other words we're dissing him for being too good a shooter to have failed, which is almost a compliment if you ask me. And though I don't know exactly how his other 7 go-ahead shots went down I bet those were considerably tricker or at least longer-range than MJ's or LBJ's.
To say he's "not clutch" for missing those shots (though the headline is somewhat kinder with its "struggled" angle) strikes me as myopic at best. Most sportswriters simply don't know what they're talking about, and Gleeson is no exception.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Yes, the article states it's "a shot he's hit countless times throughout his career". But it is still at a relatively low percentage shot for him (45% odds at best). Don't like that play. Granted Kerr's options may be limited with KT out.
Does MJ and LeBron make that shot? No, because with plenty of time left (9 seconds) and down by only one, they are both driving to the basket instead of heaving a desperation three.
Curry needs to do likewise. Perhaps draw the foul. It is a higher percentage play than the desperation three.
NonP
Legend
I feel like we're talking past each other here. If we agree that it's Steve Kerr who drew up that play then the bulk of the blame falls on Kerr the coach and not Curry the player. Now we may well learn later on that Steph did get carried away and launched the low-% trey himself that ended his team's 3-peat run at which point he'll be rightly criticized, but I don't think we know that yet.
Almost a given that MJ would do a P&R because Phil would demand it. Not so sure about LBJ because he's known for defying his coaches in the past, but yeah most likely he'd try his patented left-to-right spin move which I doubt would've worked against the Toronto D (read: Kawhi) in a half court, and barring that he'd probably go for a fallback jumper, not a trey unless he was running out of time.
Terrible matchup? You made it sound like Nadal vs Fedr at RG.
Klay was hobbling half of the series while Steph went hot and cold the last 2 games and game 5 was decided by 1 point. Game 6 without Klay in the 4 quarter yet it came down to one last shot by Curry.
Did you really watch the games?
Hardly.
If you really believe what professional sport establishments are selling and the players are ancient gladiators, then go ahead and enjoy the game.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
My point is that Curry has no business launching a three when down by only one. Curry needs to develop his game and confidence so that he/Kerry is not reliant on going a low percentage three-point play in that situation. 10 seconds is plenty of time to draw up a higher percentage play. So yes, I ultimately place the blame on Curry, even if it was a called play.
There is practically zero chance that Raptors are gonna be dumb enough to foul him on a last-second three. So it's do or die.
Curry was 3/11 for threes. 3/6 for twos...27% odds vs 50% odds.
... Never mind the fact Curry is 0/8 on go-ahead shots in final seconds of a playoff game.Curry needs to have the confidence to drive to the basket. Plus there is a much greater chance of drawing the foul on a two-pointer.
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stringertom
Bionic Poster
We had discussions about PG13 calling The Dame’s series ending trey a bad shot and some I heard from the analysts about set plays from the perimeter being less risky than drives to the basket in the final seconds. In a GWing situation the zebras tend to swallow their whistles unless it’s an obvious hack on the shooter.My point is that Curry has no business launching a three when down by only one. Curry needs to develop his game so that he/Kerry is not reliant on drawing up a low percentage three-point play in that situation. 10 seconds is plenty of time to draw up a higher percentage play. So yes, I ultimately place the blame on Curry, even if it was a called play.
There is practically zero chance that Raptors are gonna be dumb enough to foul him on a last-second three. So it's do or die.
Curry was 3/11 for threes. 3/6 for twos...27% odds vs 50% odds.
Curry needs to have the confidence to drive to the basket. Plus there is a much greater chance of drawing the foul on a two-pointer.
It’s a make or miss league these days. In the fourth quarter of Game 5, GSW made three straight treys to win the game. In Game 6, FVV made a couple of treys to build the lead and they hung on to win because Curry missed a trey on a fairly decent look. Simple as that.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Excellent playoffs by Draymond who led all players in rebounds and assists.
@stringertom Do you think Draymond knew that there were no time outs left and intentionally called TO to stop the clock? That really shows great presence of mind.
Is Draymond that smart?
@stringertom Do you think Draymond knew that there were no time outs left and intentionally called TO to stop the clock? That really shows great presence of mind.
Is Draymond that smart?
Federer and Del Potro
Talk Tennis Guru
Kerr and cousins were also trying to get a timeout. It was intentional I believe. Only way to even have a remote chance.Excellent playoffs by Draymond who led all players in rebounds and assists.
@stringertom Do you think Draymond knew that there were no time outs left and intentionally called TO to stop the clock? That really shows great presence of mind.
Is Draymond that smart?
NonP
Legend
Disagree. The coach made his call and the player followed it. Unless you think overruling your coach down the stretch a la LBJ is a swell idea I don't see how you can pin this on Steph.
Also the video you posted yourself shows at least three Raptors ready to swarm him should he decide to drive to the basket. It's not so clear that would've been a much higher-% play for the Dubs.
Plus the stats showed that Dame actually knocked down an impressive 39.2% of his treys from 30-40 feet this season, vs. the league-wide average of 25.9%:
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26593473/nope-damian-lillard-series-winner-bad-shot
Of course George connected on "only " 38.6% of his own 3s from any distance - a good conversion rate in its own right, yes, but below Lillard's 39.2% from way downtown. His gripe would've been sour grapes no matter what, and a particularly ill-advised one given the facts we actually have.
@stringertom Do you think Draymond knew that there were no time outs left and intentionally called TO to stop the clock? That really shows great presence of mind.
Is Draymond that smart?
That was their only chance, yes, and also why the fans were wrong to diss the refs for the 6-minute delay which was very much necessary. Anyway pretty sure the TO was intentional.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Agree that Curry must follow Kerry's play. I'm saying Curry, in general, needs to develop his game so that Kerry is confident in calling for a drive to the basket. The stats speak for themselves. Curry was 3/11 from deep and 3/6 for two. And, you are asking Curry to hit a game-winning shot when he is 0/8 in that playoff scenario...The long Curry shot, down by only one, even with the best three-pointer shooter ever, was a low percentage play in that situation.
Raptors were in an identical situation in Game 5. Down by only 1. Set it up for Kawhi to go for two. Kawhi was double-teamed
and passed it. Likewise, Curry should have driven in. If nothing there, pass it off to open Green or Iggy or Cook or Cousins. That would be much more preferable.
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donquijote
G.O.A.T.
Remember there was no timeout so it wasn't set up. They just wanted to give the ball to Kawhi and hope for the best. They didn't know what to do when he had to give the ball back.
Kerr designed the last play very well IMO. If it had went in Raps would only tie when they score a 2 pt shot and GSW would still be alive and can win in OT. If it didn't, they had a better chance for a rebound and there was enough time. Good coaching from Kerr.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
I am assuming Kerr's thinking is: Draw up the play for three. Take the last shot with just a couple of ticks left. Essentially last possession as there really is not enough time for Raptors to get off a decent shot ... Attacking the boards makes sense, especially as Warriors were dominating the offensive boards. But Iggy and Green are just standing back and not rushing the boards. Getting back on defense is not a priority -- need to attack the boards in case of a miss.
Comparing the Game 5 and Game 6 game-ending shots: I am fine with Kawhi passing it off or even forcing the two point shot with two guys on him as there is a chance of foul. Not okay with Curry's shot as there is no chance of foul on a three. Either pass it or drive in closer for a two.
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NonP
Legend
326 comments (and probably counting). Wonder if they're getting nervous up there with the AD news now, LOL.
Agree that Curry must follow Kerry's play. I'm saying Curry, in general, needs to develop his game so that Kerry is confident in calling for a drive to the basket. The stats speak for themselves. Curry was 3/11 from deep and 3/6 for two. And, you are asking Curry to hit a game-winning shot when he is 0/8 in that playoff scenario...The long Curry shot, down by only one, even with the best three-pointer shooter ever, was a low percentage play in that situation.
Raptors were in an identical situation in Game 5. Down by only 1. Set it up for Kawhi to go for two. Kawhi was double-teamed
and passed it. Likewise, Curry should have driven in. If nothing there, pass it off to open Green or Iggy or Cook or Cousins. That would be much more preferable.
Do you really think Kerr or any other Dub was thinking about that 0/8 stat or even knew of it when he drew up that play? Believe it or not most coaches and players aren't statheads, and they usually don't have the luxury of relying on these numbers the networks throw out in the middle of a game, especially in such a tense situation when the whole season is at risk.
Also were Steph to drive in and pass to a teammate he would've nullified Kerr's intricate play entirely. Good thing if it does work, if not he gets to disrespect his own coach AND fail the rest of his team by possibly missing out on a higher-% play.
Let's agree to disagree. We clearly have different ideas of the coach's and the players' roles and responsibilities.