heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
Back in the day, of course, you were rated by a USTA pro watching you hit. It was great. They would hand you a card with your rating afterwards.
If the 'technique' you're talking about is how to win a tennis match then I guess you could say a pusher who usually wins does not have bad technique. But if the 'technique' is defined as how the vast majority of tennis professional instructors teach tennis, which I think is the way tennis technique is usually thought of, then yes, pushers have bad technique. A pusher is generally someone who 'pushes' at the ball instead of using conventional tennis strokes.Pushers don't have 'bad technique'.
To a simpleton that's all he sees.Then his technique is inferior to yours!
I play USTA 4.0 in Atlanta, GA and this guy would get utterly smoked in a league match.
If the 'technique' you're talking about is how to win a tennis match then I guess you could say a pusher who usually wins does not have bad technique. But if the 'technique' is defined as how the vast majority of tennis professional instructors teach tennis, which I think is the way tennis technique is usually thought of, then yes, pushers have bad technique. A pusher is generally someone who 'pushes' at the ball instead of using conventional tennis strokes.
Until the past year or so I never thought much about these ratings, but in league matches and online it seems like a clear point of contention. One time I played a great match for fun and the other guy I'm 4.5, not 4.0. Yet in my 4.0 matches I get nervous, don't play my best and lose quite a bit. I also heard that some leagues will take former 5.0 players into 4.5.
Also when people post videos everyone seems to have an opinion of the skill level of the player.
So I checked online to see the official definition and came across this USTA video. To me this guy's strokes look like he was self taught and are in no way reflective of the guys I'm seeing at 4.0. What do you think?
Not really. 'Pusher' is a derogatory term for a very restrained player, who takes no chances at missing. That isn't 'bad' technique, though it may be due to limited skills, which is not the same thing at all. I know guys who love to hit overheads and miss most of them; smart players who don't have well-developed overheads avoid hitting overheads.
I know of players who can hit hard shots but shy away from the risks.
You cannot call foot faults though. Only an official. So unless there is a permanent official on the court it does not matter.Serves are foot faults, so the level of the player is 0.0. It is not tennis if you don't follow the rules.
Well, after a quick check on the internet it appears that I am out of sync with the tennis establishment these days with respect to what a 'pusher' is. I've always considered that a pusher was a guy who hit his groundstrokes by bending way over from the waist and hitting the ball not with a swing but with a sort of elongated bunt motion, that looks like he's sort of pushing the ball over the net. And I've seen a few. Seems like now any low risk type defensive player who tries to win by causing his opponent to make mistakes is called a pusher.
McEnroe's strokes are awkward too, no?
No, not at all.
I think this whole " i have 4.5 strokes but i lose in 4.0" is all BS. Those people must be delusional. A true 4.5 stroke player will never lose to a 4.0 even on a bad day.A lot of people have "4.5 level strokes" and hitting, but could get smoked in a 4.0 match or season. Which is why the true rating is about playing real tennis matches, it's a whole different skill to use your 4.5 level strokes to win matches.
It's a whole different mental side of things, to win matches. But honestly don't worry about it all it takes is some experience and letting go of ego. Some of those 4.0 league players have been playing that same league for years and years, yet we think we can just come in and destroy them with our good strokes.
Get in there, play some matches, lose some, learn from it - and put yourself in a position to win the next one.
no matter how egregious?You cannot call foot faults though. Only an official. So unless there is a permanent official on the court it does not matter.
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Although beauty is in the eye of the beholder, McEnroe's form is awkward if judged from what we expect nowadays:
1. No racket lag
2. No pat the dog, no pronation, minimal topspin
3. Little body rotation
4. Little weight transfer
Why can he be so successful then? Maybe pretty stroke doesn't contribute much to success after all.
Do you play tennis? If not check one of the tons of "how to beat pusher" threads around.... and see if it change your opinion.
Looks very messy by todays standards. Would still beat most people. Perhaps many of the pro's today have moved on but you could for sure have someone today with a clean modern technique and get battered by a 1980's Connors.
Doesn't look messy at all to me. Their footworks and strokes are far superior to mind and they'd definitely beat me.
McEnroe has an extremely unique style and no one as far as I know has every played like him before or since. With the way he plays he's never going to overpower a great baseline player at baseline rallys. His game is about attacking and getting into the net and his touch and feel there are incredible. A lot of what made him great is his raw talent.
You also have to understand when you watch videos of players from years ago that their technique was right with the technology available at the time. Strings and racket technology changed and now we use a lot more topspin than they did.
So former world #1s could beat most players today? Amazing insight. WTF does that have to do with the 4.0 clip of man with a pancake overheads and slow movement.They all had continental grips in those days for forehands and today it just looks weird. But they would have honed their technique enough to beat most people today that have a prettier cleaner looking technique.
I dont think it would fair so well against the top pros today because the ceiling is much lower, but being at the top of that ceiling is good enough to beat most people.
We can't tell from the video where the balls are going, and that's the point! The video is useless!
I would say that the video is old, probably it was approprate 4.0 at the time but now the game is a lot more competitive so the bar has raised.
No, this is not the 'best' example of a 4.0 player.
Yeah. I think you have to call an official over.no matter how egregious?
So former world #1s could beat most players today? Amazing insight. WTF does that have to do with the 4.0 clip of man with a pancake overheads and slow movement.
I would say that the video is old, probably it was approprate 4.0 at the time but now the game is a lot more competitive so the bar has raised.
I think nowadays a real 4.0
might be look more like a 4.5 in the old days. I guess in order to be a 4.5, you just simply have to have good control over the rally and serve, a 70-80 mph rally should be easy for you and you can last in this kind of rally more than 5 balls consistently.
The proof is in the pudding.
By you or by every single 4.0 player in Atlanta? I would be willing to bet money that he could win a match at 4.0 doubles in Atlanta. Sure, some teams might smoke him, but 4.0 is the great abyss of rec tennis, Atlanta is supposed to have a robust tennis community, there is no way every single 4.0 player would smoke this guy, that's not realistic.I play USTA 4.0 in Atlanta, GA and this guy would get utterly smoked in a league match.
Fixed it for you.A lot of people think they have "4.5 level strokes" and hitting, but could get smoked in a 4.0 match or season. Which is why the true rating is about playing real tennis matches, it's a whole different skill to use your self perceived 4.5 level strokes to win matches.
It's a whole different mental side of things, to win matches. But honestly don't worry about it all it takes is some experience and letting go of ego. Some of those 4.0 league players have been playing that same league for years and years, yet we think we can just come in and destroy them with our good strokes.
Get in there, play some matches, lose some, learn from it - and put yourself in a position to win the next one.
That's the video's problem not the player's problem. None of these NTRP videos show much in the way of shot outcomes. That being said, you can see the ball comes off crisply and clears the net every time. That alone is better then most 3.5's.
Both! The video does not show enough to tell where his balls are landing, and what we can see does not support a claim that this is a 4.0 player.
It does not negate it either. Your first post was categorically stating that the guy is not a 4.0. Later on you amended to say you couldn't be sure. If you'd said that first, there would be no disagreements.
Anyway, the USTA put the video out there. They're not asking for anyone's opinions. Maybe he paid them money to put his video. Maybe he pulled some strings. Maybe he is a 4.0. He is moving well, hitting crisply. Those 2 things by themselves would put him on the high end of the 3.5 spectrum. Not a big leap that he could be a 4.0. In any case this is a pointless thread. As mentioned, this guy could well be a 4.0 and rankings are about results in tournaments..not style..not how one's strokes look in a video.
Based on what the video shows, this is not a 4.0 player. Satisfied?
Disagree. We don't know and it doesn't matter anyway.
On the planet of Jupiter, there is no way in Jupiter’s hell that this guy could be a 4.0. However, on the the planet of Earth, it is very plausible that he is a 4.0.It does not negate it either. Your first post was categorically stating that the guy is not a 4.0. Later on you amended to say you couldn't be sure. If you'd said that first, there would be no disagreements.
Anyway, the USTA put the video out there. They're not asking for anyone's opinions. Maybe he paid them money to put his video. Maybe he pulled some strings. Maybe he is a 4.0. He is moving well, hitting crisply. Those 2 things by themselves would put him on the high end of the 3.5 spectrum. Not a big leap that he could be a 4.0. In any case this is a pointless thread. As mentioned, this guy could well be a 4.0 and rankings are about results in tournaments..not style..not how one's strokes look in a video.
On the planet of Jupiter, there is no way in Jupiter’s hell that this guy could be a 4.0. However, on the the planet of Earth, it is very plausible that his is a 4.0.
Based on this, I believe wise one is posting from the planet of Jupiter.
He and NuBas must be from the same planet then. The planet where all 4.0s have beautiful looking technique just like the pros. Same planet where 3.5s can rally all day against pace and spin. Must be a nice planet for rec tennis!Wise Guy's standards were always a bit higher anyway. TBH..I like Wise Guy. Old timer with a love for old school style S&V tennis. Nothing to dislike there. If only he would accept that tennis did continue to evolve even after the 70s, we'd have no disagreements.
A 4.0 player is someone who can consistently beat other 4.0 players, period.
Based on what the video shows, this is not a 4.0 player. Satisfied?
Based on what the video shows, this is not a 4.0 player. Satisfied?
3.5 players can hit 90mph ground strokes all day and not miss. Tw fact.
If video determined NTRP, it might be a reasonable conclusion [although I'd still disagree].
But since match results and opponents determine NTRP, it's potentially an unreasonable conclusion because you're missing most of the critical information: his performance, mental toughness, fitness, persistence, ability to execute under pressure, etc. How he looks on the video is only a small part.
Not at all: low-level 4.0s cannot consistently beat mid- and high-level 4.0s.
Yes, but in USTA, there's only win or lose. The computer doesn't care about your strokes. You only get to stay in 4.0 if you win most of your matches and don't lose badly.
Even a strong 4.0 can get bageled by a pusher with ugly strokes. You'd see the pusher on YouTube and say "that guy is only a 3.0, man!" And yet he can consistently beat other 4.0s. Therefore, he's a 4.0.
70-80 mph ground strokes would be in the pro level.I would say that the video is old, probably it was approprate 4.0 at the time but now the game is a lot more competitive so the bar has raised.
I think nowadays a real 4.0 might be look more like a 4.5 in the old days. I guess in order to be a 4.5, you just simply have to have good control over the rally and serve, a 70-80 mph rally should be easy for you and you can last in this kind of rally more than 5 balls consistently.
If you have a vid let's take a look