I Want A 120 MPH Serve
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FRV
Guest
That is mighty impressive. I'm assuming your shoulder was pretty sore the next day. Mine may have been swelling even.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
C
Chadalina
Guest
Lets make it interesting, if you can serve 100mph with it, you can keep it!!
https://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Wilson_US_Open_19_Junior/descpageRCWILSON-WUSO19.html
Swing weight of course varies by player, im just saying it's easier to hit 100+ serves CONSISTENTLY with a higher SW. The racket does most of the work.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
And I'm saying high swing weight works that way for you on serve. It's not a general rule. Also, if you're hitting a serve and the racquet is doing most of the work, then you're probably not hitting it right.
I'm probably a bit late to the party, but I can hit a 120 mph serve, possibly close to 130 if i'm having an incredible day. I'm not the very best player in my region, but even the top players remember my serve. The thing most people don't realize is that most of the serve power comes from the wrist snap. Seems counter intuitive, but I can stand still and swing my arm slowly, but as long as my wrist snap is good I can still hit a 100 mph serve. Your motion in the video looks like you're not directing the power into the ball but around the ball. Go up to the net and stand right in front of it, then just toss the ball up and practice snapping the ball straight down into the court as hard as you can. It should feel absolutely perfect and you should be able to get it over the fence after one bounce. That is bare minimum for a 100+ mph serve. My view will be a little skewed because I learned to serve from a young age, but I remember that the way I learned a powerful serve was that you can hit as hard as you want as long as you keep your head/tossing hand pointed upwards after the serve and to hit straight down. People don't realize the kind of racket speed you need to hit 100 mph on the serve. You gotta swing FAST. I watch people try to hit serves and they take a massive swing but it *doesn't matter* if the racket isn't moving quickly. Thats where the wrist snap comes in. Its the only way you can get the racket moving fast enough. You can move the racket a certain distance with your arm but you can move it so much more quickly if you snap the wrist properly.
BetaServe
Professional
By wrist snap do you mean pronation? If possible, can you post a video?
@SystemicAnomaly what's your opinion on this? (not on the term he used but the idea that most power comes from the hand/pronation/wrist snap/forearm or whatever u call it)
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Yes, the pronation. I like wrist snap better because I feel like it conveys the importance of it better. It's kind of like a whip, each part of your swing helps to get the racket moving that much quicker, but the wrist snap is the most important because it is the last link in the chain and it gives you the action that moves the racket really quickly. It's why professionals can hit a backhand overhead with so much power, despite the stroke literally just being a backwards wrist snap. I thought i saw a video explaining it on youtube but i can't find it. Maybe i'll post a quick video of myself to demonstrate it later. Disclaimer: I'm also going by what it *feels* like, not necessarily what is literally happening. You definitely need the arm swing to hit a serve.
FiReFTW
Legend
Yes post your video.
BetaServe
Professional
Honestly, this settles it. Defintely one of the most convincing arguments. I believe you're correct.
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BetaServe
Professional
@FiReFTW Found this interesting video
Listen from 7:42 to 8:12. He (D1 player) said the exact same thing.
"The most important part to pace is the wrist" (he definitely meant pronation but again let's not be picky here)
"Right now you don't have any wrist, so you're trying to use all your body to generate pace. If you have the wrist you will have more control on your body"
Listen from 7:42 to 8:12. He (D1 player) said the exact same thing.
"The most important part to pace is the wrist" (he definitely meant pronation but again let's not be picky here)
"Right now you don't have any wrist, so you're trying to use all your body to generate pace. If you have the wrist you will have more control on your body"
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@davel977
I cringe whenever I hear people use the phrase "wrist snap". There is some (moderate) wrist articulation involved. But not what most people would consider a snap. Turning the hand & wrist about the long axis is not a wrist action (articulation).
If it helps DaveL to visualize or think of his hand (& arm) action as a "wrist snap" and it does not result in an overuse injury in the long run, then that is ok for him. But he should not advise others to "snap the wrist" unless he shows them EXACTLY what he means by this misleading term. A majority of students or players will not perform the correct actions if they are given this verbal instruction w/o a proper demonstration of the desired action.
Now to answer your question, BetaServe. Many players will mistakenly interpret a vigorous forearm pronation as a "wrist snap". But there is more to generating RHS during the upward swing to contact that just pronation. As mentioned previously, there is some moderate wrist action. There is radial/ulnar deviation of the wrist. There's also a moderate extension and flexion (not much past neutral). But nothing that most people would consider a wrist snap.
And there's more... shoulder rotation (ISR). Some reputable sources indicate that ISR might even be a greater contributor to RHS and rotatiion of the hand & racket face than forearm pronation.
I cringe whenever I hear people use the phrase "wrist snap". There is some (moderate) wrist articulation involved. But not what most people would consider a snap. Turning the hand & wrist about the long axis is not a wrist action (articulation).
If it helps DaveL to visualize or think of his hand (& arm) action as a "wrist snap" and it does not result in an overuse injury in the long run, then that is ok for him. But he should not advise others to "snap the wrist" unless he shows them EXACTLY what he means by this misleading term. A majority of students or players will not perform the correct actions if they are given this verbal instruction w/o a proper demonstration of the desired action.
Now to answer your question, BetaServe. Many players will mistakenly interpret a vigorous forearm pronation as a "wrist snap". But there is more to generating RHS during the upward swing to contact that just pronation. As mentioned previously, there is some moderate wrist action. There is radial/ulnar deviation of the wrist. There's also a moderate extension and flexion (not much past neutral). But nothing that most people would consider a wrist snap.
And there's more... shoulder rotation (ISR). Some reputable sources indicate that ISR might even be a greater contributor to RHS and rotatiion of the hand & racket face than forearm pronation.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I think we should be picky. Because, if you don't show the correct action, the words will lead many players astray. The problem I've seen time and time again is that one player will tell another to snap their wrist. But they don't actually demonstrate what they mean by this. Or they don't scrutinize and correct the incorrect implementation that will often result. And that player turns around and tells someone else to snap their wrist. And the misleading verbal instruction perpetuates.
BetaServe
Professional
Agreed that there are many factors contributing to speed, but my question was is it correct to say both ISR and pronation generate 90%+ of the pace and not the legs or hips? (that's what davel977 meant)
Also, which one contributes more to RHS? ISR or pronation? (basically, is a serve using ISR without pronation faster than a serve using pronation without ISR, or the other way around?).
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BetaServe
Professional
What do you mean by rotation of the hand and racket face?
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Ultimately, ISR and forearm pronation are turning the hand & changing the position/orientation of the racket and racket face. The racket moves upward from (racket) drop position "one edge". At the Big L position, the racket face is still "on edge". By turning the hand with ISR, forearm pronation (& some wrist action), the strings are presented to the ball.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@davel977
For a full & efficient kinetic chain, the shoulder, forearm and wrist are (passively) transferring energy from previous links as well as (actively) generating added energy to the link. For instance, leg drive (extension) can help to develop greater ESR (stretching the internal rotators). As I understand it, the leg drive can produce a fuller racket drop with less stress to the shoulder. In light of all this, I'm not sure that it makes sense to say that 90%+ of the RHS is generated by just the shoulder and forearm when a proper KC is employed.
I don't really know if ISR contributes more to RHS than forearm pronation (or vice versa). It might depend on the particular implementation of the serve. It is possible that some decent servers employ more pronation than ISR while other decent servers might derive a greater contribution from ISR than from forearm pronation.
What does the graph above suggest to you?
Not so sure that I agree with this. It is certainly possibly to generate a very fast serve with very little contribution of the legs and hips. But this might not be the best thing for your shoulder and arm. Serving in this manner could eventually take its toll on the arm/shoulder.
For a full & efficient kinetic chain, the shoulder, forearm and wrist are (passively) transferring energy from previous links as well as (actively) generating added energy to the link. For instance, leg drive (extension) can help to develop greater ESR (stretching the internal rotators). As I understand it, the leg drive can produce a fuller racket drop with less stress to the shoulder. In light of all this, I'm not sure that it makes sense to say that 90%+ of the RHS is generated by just the shoulder and forearm when a proper KC is employed.
I don't really know if ISR contributes more to RHS than forearm pronation (or vice versa). It might depend on the particular implementation of the serve. It is possible that some decent servers employ more pronation than ISR while other decent servers might derive a greater contribution from ISR than from forearm pronation.
What does the graph above suggest to you?
BetaServe
Professional
It suggests that forearm pronation does not generate as much speed as leg+torso at contact (which i find strange), probably because this particular individual isn't actively pronating much at contact. He probably employs more ISR than pronation.
When exactly do you actively pronate? Is it right before the big L position?
TennisDawg
Hall of Fame
Dejavue seems we’ve been this way before. The racquet would still be on edge if I’m understanding the lingo “big L”. Which brings up one of the hardest parts about having a powerful serve and that is letting the elbow lead during ISR, as the racquet on edge loosely comes into the ball while pronating.
Here is the video of my serve. The first two I just tossed directly to my racket with a probation. The last serve I just hit a easy, relaxed, full serve. Reviewing the video, I see that it wasn’t just a wrist snap, and I did pull my arm back and swing a bit on the first two, but regardless I think the wrist snap is a big problem for people who serve sub 100 mph. Edit: forgot to post link.
Near the top of your upward swing.
Staying on edge as long as you can but still hitting a flat ball.
BetaServe
Professional
Hmm I don't think the last serve is anywhere near 120-130mph, probably around 100-110mph but i might be wrong. Great serve nonetheless.
How tall are you btw?
Edit: actually after rewatching a few times, that last serve could be near 120mph
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FiReFTW
Legend
You can serve, thats for sure.
I’m 5’8”. Just coming off of a shoulder injury, so I’m not serving 100% but that should be about it
BetaServe
Professional
Impressive serves for someone of that height
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Dragy
Legend
First and second attempts are not just arm backswing. They employ torso rotation, which loads the shoulder to produce that ISR acceleration closer to contact. Evidently, once you employ legs and fuller torso rotation the serve goes completely another dimension.
aimr75
Hall of Fame
Yeah to me that looks quicker than 100-110. To compare, here is a 105mph serve according to Playsight data.
That other one looks quicker, but as others mention placement and spin are more effective. With my technique at the moment, I’m not serving any quicker than this, but it doesn’t bother me.
I agree that those aspects are important in the serve, but you can definitely hit a 100 mph serve standing straight up. And if someone was training very hard you’d want to hit all aspects. But just focusing on the pronation will give dramatic results, and I think that’s one of the biggest places many players are lacking.
Yes, I ageee the placement and spin are far more important. Having a big serve is a fun party trick but usually it’s better to just slow it down to get a better out wide serve, and it’s not super helpful into the body of a good returner. Unless you want to blast it past them down the T
.
Dragy
Legend
This is what I agree with. Seen many times tennis instructors trying to make students use some rhythm, legs, etc., while their arm swing is a complete mess.
In the meantime, there’s a strong difference between “focusing” on smth (while letting everything else fall into place by itself to some degree) and actually serving while standing still up (zero torso rotation, for example).
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@BetaServe, what do you make of this?
Biomechanics and Tennis, Bruce Elliott
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577481/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577481/table/tbl2/?report=objectonly
Biomechanics and Tennis, Bruce Elliott
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577481/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577481/table/tbl2/?report=objectonly
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I believe that data was actually an average of 11 male tennis players, not 1 particular server.
Biomechanical study (tennis and squash) by Marshall and Elliott:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...nk_in_proximal-to-distal_segmental_sequencing
Exactly when and how much active pronation (and ISR) occurs may very well depend on the type of serve as well as the specific server. Moderate pronation can very well start prior to the Big L position but the bulk of it happens later -- again, depending on the server and type of serve.
It would appears that ISR provides a greater contribution than forearm pronation but that might not be how it "feels". I know that I employ a considerable amount of ESR (for the drop), which stretches the internal rotators, so I assume I also employ quite a bit of ISR later in releasing that stretch (stored energy). However, I am much more aware of forearm pronation than ISR on the upward swing before (and after) contact.
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It's really hard to separate all the aspects of the serve from one another to be able to say what contributes the most. The problem is the action has to start somewhere and your body, hopefully, is all connected together. But, having said that, from my perspective I could care less about anything other than toss and arm action when I start someone learning how to serve. If you don't learn those two things well your serve is going to be terrible. On the other hand, if you get those two things right with nothing else, your serve will be decent and probably work fine up to a 3.5 - 4.0 level. And the most important thing for progress beyond that is adding the other parts will make your 3.5-4.0 serve into a 4.5 - 5.0 serve relatively easily. No amount of knees, hips, torso and shoulders is going to turn a bad arm motion into a 5.0 serve.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
5.0 serve? I thought we were talking 120 mph serve. That's 6.0 territory there. Unless we are talking "max speed with a favoring wind and best of 15 attempts" type 120 mph serve. A consistent "hit it in a match" type 120 mph serve is tough for even the pros. Have seen a number of pros where 120-125 mph is their peak serve of the day and most of their stuff averages 100-110 mph.
Well, I was going back to basics and following up on the biomechanics aspects of the thread discussing the contributions of various parts of the serve. I see a lot of people trying to add in legs and hips and all sorts of things to try and eek out some additional mph. It's really a moot point if the arm action isn't there. That's why I was going back to toss and arm action. I go back to those things myself from time to time. I find in tennis and lots of other things people, myself included, like to assume we have the basics down and move on to some more advanced things. However, much of the time our basics aren't quite right and we're working from a compromised foundation.
Dragy
Legend
I respectfully disagree. To me getting 85kg 8-10” in the air is no way a “no legs”. The fact that he doesn’t load them deeply just indicates how high the quality of his muscles is.
BetaServe
Professional
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BetaServe
Professional
Here's a good tip from Bender.
Dragy
Legend
He hits even stronger serves with full motion. But you are free to not use legs if you feel like
BetaServe
Professional
Sure, stronger, but how much stronger is the real question.He hits even stronger serves with full motion. But you are free to not use legs if you feel like
Dragy
Legend
Stronger to get more RHS and more spin with same or just higher power, therefore better ball flight shape and higher consistency.
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
Jumping also does help with more topspin into the ball as you swing to hit harder
MemphisTennis
New User
For what it’s worth, I think a lot of people lose MPH on their serve just with the leg timing. Hesitant to even call it a jump. Forget even fooling with the 700 different parts of the swing people obsess over. If you wait down in your knee bend once you get there, you lose all of that momentum. Along with being relaxed, you need to swing UP at the ball, along with sending your weight up towards it. MPH isn’t super important, but it’s all timing and fluidity.
Sabine Lisicki didn’t hit 130 with arm strength. Benjamin Becker was 5’10”, but I’ve watched him crank out 130’s when there was a 500 here. It’s all timing.
Sabine Lisicki didn’t hit 130 with arm strength. Benjamin Becker was 5’10”, but I’ve watched him crank out 130’s when there was a 500 here. It’s all timing.
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
Totally agree. Haven't seen you in awhile, if you are in SF let's hit.
Badmrfrosty
Rookie
I'm old and fat too. Did you make this happen?
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