Whats your top 10 of all time now (men)

N

NoMercy

Hall of Fame
Ivan69 said:
Ha. Interesting. Just months ago you said that next to Rosewall's amateur slams you don't count also Laver's because all they were "scrappy".
Please tell me then how many titles do you count for Laver. What about the other non-slam titles as an amateur? They were maybe ultra-challengers in your view and maybe not subject of counting too.
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I see that, as always, you didn’t understand the meaning of the post.
The meaning was that there are so many wrong info on the web and around, that are not reliable. Like the 23 Majors of Rosewall, the 109 tournaments of connors or the 200 tournaments of a Laver.
But if you like to accept as good that 23, you should accept also the 109 or the 200.
They are all wrong, but it’s what the world knows.
 
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I

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
Dan Lobb said:
You found nothing that reported Rosewall's singles and doubles results together as one number.....and your numbers above are unidentified as to era or time period....not helpful.

The Red champions won on a garbage penalty goal.
Click to expand...
Please start with the first lessons. Then other will come.

I see. Football is so far from you like tennis.
 
I

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
NoMercy said:
I am very calm, as said various times.
What the world (or part of it) maybe knows can be wrong. I just posted the example, with Laver having supposedly won 200 titles, when he won more. Even in the Laver Cup Trophy there are just 200 lines, as per 200 titles.
And from where they took that number?
Wikipedia.
Or for example the wiki page of the similar M1000. The value of those Rosewall’s 23 is the same as the value of these Wikipedia pages.
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I don't know. Ask the writers. I disagree with other numbers. But here I agree with that number. 23 is correct.
Wiki is wrong about the total titles of maybe all players from the past. But that's another big case.
The issue of Connors (and many other) is commonly known. They say what ATP says. But as KG told in another thread Connors' wikipage is almost correct with all not-sanctioned titles. I don't know. If it's so it's good, better than not showing anything.
 
I

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
NoMercy said:
I see that, as always, you didn’t understand the meaning of the post.
The meaning was that there are so many wrong info on the web and around, that are not reliable. Like the 23 Majors of Rosewall, the 109 tournaments of connors or the 200 tournaments of a Laver.
But if you like to accept as good that 23, you should accept also the 109 or the 200.
They are all wrong, but it’s what the world knows.
Click to expand...
Those posts had nothing to do with the web info. You always have meant and said that the amateur slams were a joke. You directly said that Laver has no GS in 1962. Generally you ignores the amateur division as too too weak. Not arguing here, just mentioning your opinion.
So please tell me how many titles you do count for Laver. How do you evaluate the amateur titles of Laver - weak, very weak, ultra weak, super good (!?!) based on your opinion on the amateurs?
If the number 200 for Laver bothers you please feel free to update it. wiki is a open source. The world would know more exact figures.
 
D

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
This is an interesting question, how to evaluate weak slams.

Laver won the 1961 and 1962 Wimbledon titles by beating a list of players of whom possibly only one (Santana) was among the top ten in the world.

Arthur Ashe won the 1970 Australian Open without beating a top ten player (Ralston withdrew from his match).

There are many weak titles on any champion's list, including Rosewall's.
 
K

KG1965

Legend
Ivan69 said:
Come on LIVERPOOL! You'll never walk alone.
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K

KG1965

Legend
KG1965 said:
My ranking Post War II
(Kramer unclassifiable, almost certainly the best player in history, Riggs unclassifiable, suggests that he can be placed between 10-15)

1) Federer T1
2) Laver T1
3) Gonzalez T1
4) Rosewall T1/T2
5) Nadal T1/T2
6) Borg T2
7) Sampras T2
8) Djokovic T2
9) Connors T2
10) McEnroe T2/T3
11) Lendl T2/T3
Click to expand...
1) Federer T1
2) Laver T1
3) Gonzalez T1
4) Nadal T1... becomes GOAT contender IMO
5) Rosewall T1/T2
6) Borg T2
7) Sampras T2
8) Djokovic T2
9) Connors T2
10) McEnroe T2/T3
11) Lendl T2/T3
 
K

KG1965

Legend
Ivan69 said:
Djok is far above Borg and Sampras. In any aspect.
Click to expand...
I think that the three are very close.
I agree with you that Djoker has won more (even a lot more) but I believe that the historical importance (icon) of Borg and the 12 W & USO (the two bigger ones of that period) of Pete do group the three in my eyes (and in my opinion in the eyes of many).
I understand the opinion of those who put Djoker in front of the two.
 
U

urban

Legend
The whole goat stuff may be exciting for some, but better to sit back and enjoy and appreciate the achievements by those great tennis players. Its certainly correct, that some players transcended their own era by setting great individual records, like Tilden with his utter dominance and a 950 % or what record over 10 years, Budge with his great peak run at ams and pros, Gonzalez with his long reign as king of the pro hill, Rosewall with his longevity, Laver with his true Grand Slams and 211 and counting tournament wins, Borg with his reign at RG and Wim, Sampras with his great fastcourt record. Now Nadal has set a record, which is among the most amazing in tennis, one of the very few records, where the men did better than the women. The dirty dozen at the most tough major is sensational. One aspect i find especially interessant, is that Nadal is facing now at RG with Thiem a genuine tough challenger of the new generation, who has the right work ethic. While at Wim and on hc some of the old folks like Anderson, Cilic or Isner are making runs to the final, but do freeze, when it really matters. I hope that Zverev or Tsitsipas can learn from him and make a move now at Wim or USO.
RG is not about grinding. Following a New York Times article of today, the majority of exchanges at RG have only 2-3 strokes, way less than the exchanges at the USO lately Obviously Nadal finds it easier to land and dictate with his big forehand at the faster conditions at RG, than on the slower courts at Flushing. If i see it right, most of the last 8 at RG this year were pretty big hitters.
Nadal and Moya expressed, that he had a tough time, especially mentally, after his Indian Wells injury and his lackluster performances earlier in the clay season. But he regrouped mentally, with Rome giving him a big boost. Now i expect him to do well at Wim, he came close last year, and on the slow courts of Flushing, he is at least co-favorite, when healthy.
 
I

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
KG1965 said:
I think that the three are very close.
I agree with you that Djoker has won more (even a lot more) but I believe that the historical importance (icon) of Borg and the 12 W & USO (the two bigger ones of that period) of Pete do group the three in my eyes (and in my opinion in the eyes of many).
I understand the opinion of those who put Djoker in front of the two.
Click to expand...
The issue is that Borg and Sampras are not even close to Nole. He is far above IN ANY ASPECT.
The historical importance in every sport is measured with the achievements. Borg and Samp became famous with their titles (slams). Nole surpassed them in every possible way. Borg and Samp had weaknesses on some surfaces. Nole is good on all surfaces.
 
I

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
urban said:
The whole goat stuff may be exciting for some, but better to sit back and enjoy and appreciate the achievements by those great tennis players. Its certainly correct, that some players transcended their own era by setting great individual records, like Tilden with his utter dominance and a 950 % or what record over 10 years, Budge with his great peak run at ams and pros, Gonzalez with his long reign as king of the pro hill, Rosewall with his longevity, Laver with his true Grand Slams and 211 and counting tournament wins, Borg with his reign at RG and Wim, Sampras with his great fastcourt record. Now Nadal has set a record, which is among the most amazing in tennis, one of the very few records, where the men did better than the women. The dirty dozen at the most tough major is sensational. One aspect i find especially interessant, is that Nadal is facing now at RG with Thiem a genuine tough challenger of the new generation, who has the right work ethic. While at Wim and on hc some of the old folks like Anderson, Cilic or Isner are making runs to the final, but do freeze, when it really matters. I hope that Zverev or Tsitsipas can learn from him and make a move now at Wim or USO.
RG is not about grinding. Following a New York Times article of today, the majority of exchanges at RG have only 2-3 strokes, way less than the exchanges at the USO lately Obviously Nadal finds it easier to land and dictate with his big forehand at the faster conditions at RG, than on the slower courts at Flushing. If i see it right, most of the last 8 at RG this year were pretty big hitters.
Nadal and Moya expressed, that he had a tough time, especially mentally, after his Indian Wells injury and his lackluster performances earlier in the clay season. But he regrouped mentally, with Rome giving him a big boost. Now i expect him to do well at Wim, he came close last year, and on the slow courts of Flushing, he is at least co-favorite, when healthy.
Click to expand...
I didn't get your point about these 950%.
 
K

KG1965

Legend
KG1965 said:
1) Federer T1
2) Laver T1
3) Gonzalez T1
4) Nadal T1... becomes GOAT contender IMO
5) Rosewall T1/T2
6) Borg T2
7) Sampras T2
8) Djokovic T2
9) Connors T2
10) McEnroe T2/T3
11) Lendl T2/T3
Click to expand...
A great day for Nole.
Not only has he simply won a slam, but he has won the 5th Wimbledon in an unlikely match.:eek::eek::eek:
Although the media is not interested in Serbian:mad:, Nole has accomplished a phantasmagorical feat that projects him high in my ranking....
in the territories of Muscles. Nadal and the big 3 are close.

1) Federer T1
2) Laver T1
3) Gonzalez T1
4) Nadal T1
5) Rosewall T1/T2
6) Djokovic T1/T2
7) Borg T2
8) Sampras T2
9) Connors T2
10) McEnroe T2/T3
11) Lendl T2/T3
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
KG1965 said:
the Novak of the last few years is certainly the king of all times of the mentality.
the Novak of the early years maybe not.
Click to expand...

Yeah, peaking Djokovic is a bloody monster deep in an epic match mentally but there's been a lot of missed opportunities and matches that's he's needlessly extended through poor play as well.

At his best he's maybe the most annoying rock ever lol. But let's not forget that he lost a lot of winnable matches in 2012-2014 as well, even in 2015 he played a poor match tactically against Stan in the FO final.
 
K

KG1965

Legend
NatF said:
Yeah, peaking Djokovic is a bloody monster deep in an epic match mentally but there's been a lot of missed opportunities and matches that's he's needlessly extended through poor play as well.

At his best he's maybe the most annoying rock ever lol. But let's not forget that he lost a lot of winnable matches in 2012-2014 as well, even in 2015 he played a poor match tactically against Stan in the FO final.
Click to expand...
Yes, I wanted to mean just that. There are some aspects of the champions that have been mythologized.
For example Sampras was super cold. In slam tournaments always won close matches. In the Masters 1000 he almost always lost the close matches.
Borg was terrific in the 3 out of 5. We thinks that he was unbeatable because he was cold in the clutch moments. But at the US Open it was very down. Even in tie-breaks he was anything but glacial.
 
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I

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
KG1965 said:
the Novak of the last few years is certainly the king of all times of the mentality.
the Novak of the early years maybe not.
Click to expand...
Maybe you have forgotten the epic matches vs Roger on US in 2010 and 2011 and vs Rafa on AO in 2012. The strong mentality is largely visible in big big matches when both players have even chances to win. Especially playing vs the top rivals.
 
D

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
NatF said:
Yeah, peaking Djokovic is a bloody monster deep in an epic match mentally but there's been a lot of missed opportunities and matches that's he's needlessly extended through poor play as well.

At his best he's maybe the most annoying rock ever lol. But let's not forget that he lost a lot of winnable matches in 2012-2014 as well, even in 2015 he played a poor match tactically against Stan in the FO final.
Click to expand...
All three of today's "Big 3" have a habit of giving away tons of clinching points, which you did not see from the likes of Kramer, Gonzales, Hoad, Rosewall, Laver, Newcombe, Borg, Sampras. This is something new for the top players.
 
U

urban

Legend
Mentality comes with success. Djoker now is certainly a cool customer, but he has the advantage, that he has built a winning aura around himself as Nr. 1. But he lost surprisingly several big finals, especially at USO, where his best surface is laid down. For a time, he looked like a second Lendl, by losing quite many GS finals against Murray or Wawrinka. Sometimes even now he has the habit, to get passive and inactive, not going offensively for the kill. Such was the case now at 3-2 final set against Fed, and he later spoilt a lot of 30-30 points on Feds serve with tame and passive returning, when Feds serve lost a bit of sting due to tiredness. In some tight RG matches vs. Nadal he let Nadal back into the match, who went on the offensive with his big forehand. And this year, against Thiem at RG he looked anything like that mental beast, that the press is now claiming. In tight five setters i would go with people like Newcombe, Borg, Becker and Sampras, with their serves they certainly could close out matches.
 
I

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
NatF said:
Yeah, peaking Djokovic is a bloody monster deep in an epic match mentally but there's been a lot of missed opportunities and matches that's he's needlessly extended through poor play as well.

At his best he's maybe the most annoying rock ever lol. But let's not forget that he lost a lot of winnable matches in 2012-2014 as well, even in 2015 he played a poor match tactically against Stan in the FO final.
Click to expand...
Well, 2012-2014 were not the perfect seasons for Nole but 3 slams, 10 Masters and 2 ATP finals were a good achievement. He lost several finals and semis but the opponents were Nadal, Fed and Murray. The only match I remember Nole could have won in that period was US 2012 vs Murray. The other matches I think were not close.

I think he didn't played badly on RG 2015. First, Stan was extremely good in that match. Second, it's my opinion that Nole didn't entered RG fully fresh. He won consecutively AO, IW, Miami, Monte Carlo, Rome.
 
I

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
urban said:
Mentality comes with success. Djoker now is certainly a cool customer, but he has the advantage, that he has built a winning aura around himself as Nr. 1.
Click to expand...
The history shows that Djoker's mentality is rather inherent than a result of a success. Still at 19/20 he had about 10 wins vs No 2 Nadal, No 1 Fed, No 3 Roddick, No 5 Davydenko. 1-2 wins of young players vs top players could be considered a surprise. Many wins indicate about something more than pure tennis qualities.
urban said:
But he lost surprisingly several big finals, especially at USO, where his best surface is laid down. For a time, he looked like a second Lendl, by losing quite many GS finals against Murray or Wawrinka.
Click to expand...
Why surprisingly? Murray and Wawrinka were strong players at that time.
urban said:
In some tight RG matches vs. Nadal he let Nadal back into the match, who went on the offensive with his big forehand.
Click to expand...
Novak has 1 win and 6 losses vs Nadal at RG. Out of these 6 losses only 1 match was tight - RG 2013. All the other were regular wins for Rafa.
urban said:
In tight five setters i would go with people like Newcombe, Borg, Becker and Sampras, with their serves they certainly could close out matches.
Click to expand...
The good serving has been always an important part of the game. But important is also the return. Djokovic, Nadal, Murray and I would include Fed are most probably the best returners. So, the serving of Newcombe, Borg, Becker and Sampras would not have been so effective if they were good returners. Agassi was a good returner but not as good as the current top players.
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
Ivan69 said:
Well, 2012-2014 were not the perfect seasons for Nole but 3 slams, 10 Masters and 2 ATP finals were a good achievement. He lost several finals and semis but the opponents were Nadal, Fed and Murray. The only match I remember Nole could have won in that period was US 2012 vs Murray. The other matches I think were not close.

I think he didn't played badly on RG 2015. First, Stan was extremely good in that match. Second, it's my opinion that Nole didn't entered RG fully fresh. He won consecutively AO, IW, Miami, Monte Carlo, Rome.
Click to expand...

He achieved a lot in 2012-2014 but probably not as much as he should have imo.

He played passively against Stan in that final that was his problem. His worst final was probably against Murray in 2013 at Wimbledon but he had an absolute epic against Del Potro in the SF. He was unfortunate with draws a couple of times in those years e. g. drawing Wawrinka in the SF and QF of the USO and AO.
 
I

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
NatF said:
He achieved a lot in 2012-2014 but probably not as much as he should have imo.

He played passively against Stan in that final that was his problem. His worst final was probably against Murray in 2013 at Wimbledon but he had an absolute epic against Del Potro in the SF. He was unfortunate with draws a couple of times in those years e. g. drawing Wawrinka in the SF and QF of the USO and AO.
Click to expand...
What a player should win is a extremely complex question. Especially in the monster competition in those years. Next to Fed and Nadal they were Murray, Wawrinka, Delpo. Not to exclude also the common big fighter Ferrer. 6-7 top fighters - not predictable.

I disagree that Wim 2013 was the worst final for Novak. Despite the win in straight sets both played a top 3 and half hour match. Novak seemed to be a bit more tired after the 5 hours battle with Delpo. Andy had a comfortable win to Janovicz. Novak led 4-1 in the second set I think but lost his advantage with many unforced errors. In the same time Andy was too too solid. Finally, this was not a winnable match having in mind the circumstances.

IMO the slam matches Novak should have won at any price were US 2014 vs Nishi, US 2012 vs Murray and Wim 2010 vs Berdych.
 
T

thrust

Legend
Ivan69 said:
Incredible final! Huge congrats to both players!
Click to expand...
INDEED! Certainly one of the highest quality finals I can recall. IMO, Nadal is just about even with Federer as an ATG, all things considered. Yesterday I saw that Roger had 237 weeks at #1 before Nadal first became #1 in 08 which IMO inflates his weeks at #1 as he did not have to deal with peak Rafa or Novak before 08. I really became a Medvedev fan this USO, especially since yesterday.
 
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U

urban

Legend
I find it increasingly difficult, to make a hierarchy among the big 3 in this modern era. Indeed, one can make a veritable, reasonable case for each of them. We can surely marvel about Feds longevity, but imo ist even more astonishing, that Nadal is still in the top spot with 33 years. With his intense, energetic game i thought, he would be a spent force with 30. That he has won 5 majors over 30, which is imo the highest number in open era, in unbelievable. And don't talk about easy wins, Thiem and Medwedew both put on real challenges this year, at last some good signs of the younger generation.
The big 3, as it is now, are ultra close to each other, each has 54 big wins (after ATP counting), i would call Nadals Olympic win also a big win. If Nadal makes Nr. 1, each has 5 year end Nr. 1 positions. Fed has still an advantage in overall wins and weeks at Nr. 1, but the others are increasing their numbers, have better hth and have more Masters titles. Djokovic had probably the highest domination in 2011 and 2015 (against a stronger field than Fed in 2004-07) and the complete Masters set. Nadals 12 RG titles is maybe the most extraordinary achievement in tennis, given the fact, that RG is hardest to win and has the best preparation and form build up of all majors. Melbourne is very early in the season, Wim has an anachronistic, seldom played surface, and Flushing as the latest major, is often a battle of exhaustion and last man standing. Maybe we have a trinity of greatest players at the moment in this current era.
 
I

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
thrust said:
INDEED! Certainly one of the highest quality finals I can recall. IMO, Nadal is just about even with Federer as an ATG, all things considered. Yesterday I saw that Roger had 237 weeks at #1 before Nadal first became #1 in 08 which IMO inflates his weeks at #1 as he did not have to deal with peak Rafa or Novak before 08. I really became a Medvedev fan this USO, especially since yesterday.
Click to expand...
I am still surprised what a consistent game on a high level Medvedev showed in the last 2 months.
I am still surprised how Medvedev endured physically on all these matches in spite of some cramps !?! The last match lasted nearly 5 hours and he played solid till the end.
 
DSH

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
Ivan69 said:
I am still surprised what a consistent game on a high level Medvedev showed in the last 2 months.
I am still surprised how Medvedev endured physically on all these matches in spite of some cramps !?! The last match lasted nearly 5 hours and he played solid till the end.
Click to expand...

Ivan, what is your top 10 of all time, now?
Thanks!
:)
 
Flash O'Groove

Flash O'Groove

Hall of Fame
urban said:
I find it increasingly difficult, to make a hierarchy among the big 3 in this modern era. Indeed, one can make a veritable, reasonable case for each of them. We can surely marvel about Feds longevity, but imo ist even more astonishing, that Nadal is still in the top spot with 33 years. With his intense, energetic game i thought, he would be a spent force with 30. That he has won 5 majors over 30, which is imo the highest number in open era, in unbelievable. And don't talk about easy wins, Thiem and Medwedew both put on real challenges this year, at last some good signs of the younger generation.
The big 3, as it is now, are ultra close to each other, each has 54 big wins (after ATP counting), i would call Nadals Olympic win also a big win. If Nadal makes Nr. 1, each has 5 year end Nr. 1 positions. Fed has still an advantage in overall wins and weeks at Nr. 1, but the others are increasing their numbers, have better hth and have more Masters titles. Djokovic had probably the highest domination in 2011 and 2015 (against a stronger field than Fed in 2004-07) and the complete Masters set. Nadals 12 RG titles is maybe the most extraordinary achievement in tennis, given the fact, that RG is hardest to win and has the best preparation and form build up of all majors. Melbourne is very early in the season, Wim has an anachronistic, seldom played surface, and Flushing as the latest major, is often a battle of exhaustion and last man standing. Maybe we have a trinity of greatest players at the moment in this current era.
Click to expand...

They also make you think about the value of rivals to push them to go on further. The USO draw was pretty easy but as you say it's an achievement by itself for Nadal to be still playing at a slam winning level at 33, and I'm sure the competition with Fed and Djokovic is a huge drive, as it is for them.

It seems to me the last time there was 3 professionnals around as committed as Nadal, Federer and Djokovic for an extended duration, it was Gonzalez, Rosewall and Laver, all of whom rank very very high.

I wonder what Sampras could have done if he had been pushed a bit more than Agassi/Courier?
 
I

Ivan69

Hall of Fame
DSH said:
Ivan, what is your top 10 of all time, now?
Thanks!
:)
Click to expand...
Sure. My list is based on overall players' achievements. No sympathies.
1 Ken Rosewall
2 Rod Laver
3 Roger Federer
4 Rafael Nadal
5 Novak Djokovic
6 Ivan Lendl
7 Bill Tilden
8 Jimmy Connors
9 Pancho Gonzales
10 Pete Sampras
 
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K

KG1965

Legend
Ivan69 said:
Sure. My list is based on overall players' achievements. No sympathies.
1 Ken Rosewall
2 Rod Laver
3 Roger Federer
4 Rafael Nadal
5 Novak Djokovic
6 Ivan Lendl
7 Bill Tilden
8 Jimmy Connors
9 Pancho Gonzales
10 Pete Sampras
Click to expand...
Wow, that list. That's a surprise!!
 
Last edited:
DSH

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
Ivan69 said:
Sure. My list is based on overall players' achievements. No sympathies.
1 Ken Rosewall
2 Rod Laver
3 Roger Federer
4 Rafael Nadal
5 Novak Djokovic
6 Ivan Lendl
7 Bill Tilden
8 Jimmy Connors
9 Pancho Gonzales
10 Pete Sampras
Click to expand...

According to you, what does Nadal needs to overcome Federer, Laver and Rosewall respectively?
:unsure:
 
T

thrust

Legend
urban said:
I find it increasingly difficult, to make a hierarchy among the big 3 in this modern era. Indeed, one can make a veritable, reasonable case for each of them. We can surely marvel about Feds longevity, but imo ist even more astonishing, that Nadal is still in the top spot with 33 years. With his intense, energetic game i thought, he would be a spent force with 30. That he has won 5 majors over 30, which is imo the highest number in open era, in unbelievable. And don't talk about easy wins, Thiem and Medwedew both put on real challenges this year, at last some good signs of the younger generation.
The big 3, as it is now, are ultra close to each other, each has 54 big wins (after ATP counting), i would call Nadals Olympic win also a big win. If Nadal makes Nr. 1, each has 5 year end Nr. 1 positions. Fed has still an advantage in overall wins and weeks at Nr. 1, but the others are increasing their numbers, have better hth and have more Masters titles. Djokovic had probably the highest domination in 2011 and 2015 (against a stronger field than Fed in 2004-07) and the complete Masters set. Nadals 12 RG titles is maybe the most extraordinary achievement in tennis, given the fact, that RG is hardest to win and has the best preparation and form build up of all majors. Melbourne is very early in the season, Wim has an anachronistic, seldom played surface, and Flushing as the latest major, is often a battle of exhaustion and last man standing. Maybe we have a trinity of greatest players at the moment in this current era.
Click to expand...
Tier 1 ATG Post 1950: Nadal, F
Ivan69 said:
Sure. My list is based on overall players' achievements. No sympathies.
1 Ken Rosewall
2 Rod Laver
3 Roger Federer
4 Rafael Nadal
5 Novak Djokovic
6 Ivan Lendl
7 Bill Tilden
8 Jimmy Connors
9 Pancho Gonzales
10 Pete Sampras
Click to expand...
GREAT LIST!
 
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