Obsessing over technique and never playing matches

TimeToPlaySets

TimeToPlaySets

Legend
One of the guys at the local courts is out there every day, hitting against the wall.

He is on a mission to seek out the holy grail, the perfect BH. The perfect FH. The perfect serve.
He has watched many Youtube videos, and is always talking about kinetic release pronation,
wrist extension lag snap, and all kinds of crazy **** I don't understand.

He only rallies, and I have never seen him play a set.

Last year, I told him that it's TimeToPlaySets. He's missing out on TENNIS.
I advised him to join a club league so he can experience the many layers of this great sport.

He never did.
He is still on a quest to have the perfect BH, and the ideal isometric rotation angle of the kinetic plane

Well, we rallied the other day,
and then I suggest we play a set.

I only play one way. All out.
(This is why I refuse to play mixed.)

Since he is weaker, my goal was to play a smart & consistent match.

Mostly 2nd serves.
He was having serious trouble returning my serve.
Why? Because he's never returned a serve!

I moved him around.
Drop shots.
Slices.
I topspin lobbed at his BH (not one came back)
I never game him a chance to hit his perfect BH.

I beat him 6-0 6-0.
He was gobsmacked

Finally, I think he got it. He said he's been doing it all wrong,
and that he needs to find people who want to play matches.
He said his current partners never even serve, they only rally.

The double bagel was a revelation for him,
and I think I played a small part in his development.

You must play matches to learn what real tennis is.
It's much more than baseline rallies!
 
Last edited:
TagUrIt

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
6-0, 6-0 is certainly a wake up call. The pressure of match (even a friendly one) is entirely different from just rallying back and forth. Valuable lesson learned, hopefully he’ll play more instead of just hitting.
 
TimeToPlaySets

TimeToPlaySets

Legend
TagUrIt said:
6-0, 6-0 is certainly a wake up call. The pressure of match (even a friendly one) is entirely different from just rallying back and forth. Valuable lesson learned, hopefully he’ll play more instead of just hitting.
Click to expand...

It was not about pressure. He was totally out of his element. Tennis is a game of mobility. And discomfort. Not cooperation.
I told him that I can rally with a 4.5 and appear equal, but the 4.5 will cream me in a match. Night and day.

But, he got it. He was forced to play shots that he never plays.

Like the serve+1 shot. He was very unprepared for his serve to come back,
since he only serves with a hopper to no one on the other side.
 
Fxanimator1

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
TimeToPlaySets said:
One of the guys at the local courts is out there every day, hitting against the wall.

He is on a mission to seek out the holy grail, the perfect BH. The perfect FH. The perfect serve.
He has watched many Youtube videos, and is always talking about kinetic release pronation,
wrist extension lag snap, and all kinds of crazy **** I don't understand.

He only rallies, and I have never seen him play a set.

Last year, I told him that it's TimeToPlaySets. He's missing out on TENNIS.
I advised him to join a club league so he can experience the many layers of this great sport.

He never did.
He is still on a quest to have the perfect BH, and the ideal isometric rotation angle of the kinetic plane

Well, we rallied the other day,
and then I suggest we play a set.

I only play one way. All out.
(This is why I refuse to play mixed.)

Since he is weaker, my goal was to play a smart & consistent match.

Mostly 2nd serves.
He was having serious trouble returning my serve.
Why? Because he's never returned a serve!

I moved him around.
Drop shots.
Slices.
I topspin lobbed at his BH (not one came back)
I never game him a chance to hit his perfect BH.

I beat him 6-0 6-0.
He was gobsmacked

Finally, I think he got it. He said he's been doing it all wrong,
and that he needs to find people who want to play matches.
He said his current partners never even serve, they only rally.

The double bagel was a revelation for him,
and I think I played a small part in his development.

You must play matches to learn what real tennis is.
It's much more than baseline rallies!
Click to expand...

Why are you making a thread about this? Because it’s coming across like an ego trip.
 
TimeToPlaySets

TimeToPlaySets

Legend
Fxanimator1 said:
Why are you making a thread about this? Because it’s coming across like an ego trip.
Click to expand...

Sorry that is your impression. I have no ego.
I do not relish in bragging about winning to lower players.
If I wanted to do that, I would sandbag in the 3.0 ranks and go to Nationals

The thread is posted in a leagues and matches forum.
This is a place to discuss the merits of matches vs fixation on technique with no larger context.

Ultimately, this thread is to discuss the very nature of tennis and its many facets.
 
IowaGuy

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
TimeToPlaySets said:
You must play matches to learn what real tennis is. It's much more than baseline rallies!
Click to expand...

I have met a few guys that absolutely refuse to play points/tiebreakers (let alone a set). They insist only on rallying.

My game has improved since I started focusing more on point play and point construction, instead of rallying. I only rally for a bit to warm up at the start of a hitting session.

I choose practice partners who either want to play competitive matches, or who want to do hardcore drilling (volleys, overheads, approach shots, S&V, etc).
 
TnsGuru

TnsGuru

Professional
How do you think he would have fared against his own level? Sounds like you have too much game for the guy IMO. Maybe assess him playing against another player at or close to his level would be better? If he played against a 3.5 for example, would he still be beaten 6-0, 6-0?
 
fundrazer

fundrazer

G.O.A.T.
Didn't you just make a thread to say pay for lessons instead of league matches?

The ttps "golden nuggets" never fail to deliver. If the guy enjoys rallying against the backboard then just let him do his thing. Sounds pretty obnoxious to play a practice set and do what you did, but then again I don't really expect anything less from you.
 
TagUrIt

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
Fxanimator1 said:
Why are you making a thread about this? Because it’s coming across like an ego trip.
Click to expand...


I honestly didn’t get that impression at all. I think he was sharing his experience on the court and maybe his post could serve as a teachable moment to players that only practice rallying.

TimeToPlaySets said:
Sorry that is your impression. I have no ego.
I do not relish in bragging about winning to lower players.
Click to expand...

Yeah, again I didn’t think you were. Even though destroyed your opponent, I thought you were actually helping him see that practice is good, but actual game play can be a real measure of your skills. Especially the ROS part, there is NO ROS in rallying.
 
R1FF

R1FF

Professional
TTPS loves tennis.

Therefore he likes to talk about tennis.

Therefore he shares those thoughts in threads that are very descriptive.

Those of us who also love tennis find these threads insightful & entertaining & participation worthy.

Keep them coming!!!
 
R1FF

R1FF

Professional
And before someone chimes in that they love tennis but despise these threads...

...let me remind you that we might have a different definition of tennis. Some of you are quite open about the primary goal of playing is to socialize, while others are openly bastardizing the definition of competition. For some here, tennis isnt a sport but a social activity.

The creative license to which we view this sport varies a lot round these parts.
 
FiReFTW

FiReFTW

Legend
Well at least it was a wake up call for him and he realizes now what he has to do.

Good tennis progression and growth needs a little bit of everything.
 
TimeToPlaySets

TimeToPlaySets

Legend
TnsGuru said:
How do you think he would have fared against his own level? Sounds like you have too much game for the guy IMO. Maybe assess him playing against another player at or close to his level would be better? If he played against a 3.5 for example, would he still be beaten 6-0, 6-0?
Click to expand...

Yes, I am a level above him, partly due to so much match experience.
But, it's not about his level. The point is that he does not have any particular level.

Even if he played a 3.0, he has major gaps in his game that he was not even aware of.
Running to the ball, for example.
Or slicing defensively.
Or approach shot

Stuff that is developed by playing the entire game of tennis
and then drilling on your deficiencies.

He has the work ethic, but not the correct road map.

Focusing solely on your perfect BH stroke is not tennis.
It's more an OCD fetish and the antithesis of #winningugly

Why this thread? We see winning ugly junkers all the time
but not the polar opposite. Losing pretty.
 
TimeToPlaySets

TimeToPlaySets

Legend
fundrazer said:
Didn't you just make a thread to say pay for lessons instead of league matches?

The ttps "golden nuggets" never fail to deliver. If the guy enjoys rallying against the backboard then just let him do his thing. Sounds pretty obnoxious to play a practice set and do what you did, but then again I don't really expect anything less from you.
Click to expand...

Yes, the contradictions in tennis are manifold, and that is what makes this sport great.
You can have 2 lessons and be told the opposite things from 2 different coaches.

You need to take lessons to get good.
But, you need to push in order to win.
You need to play matches to get good.
But league play interferes with stroke development (bunt to win vs swing out)

If you can't handle ambiguity, tennis will drive you mad!
 
TimeToPlaySets

TimeToPlaySets

Legend
fundrazer said:
Sounds pretty obnoxious to play a practice set and do what you did, but then again I don't really expect anything less from you.
Click to expand...

At one point during the rally, he was tiring, and could not sustain a rally.
Like his feed would go into the net or long. I was spending more time picking up balls.

So, at that point, you need to change the session.
With a practice set, I would be serving, returning serves, drop shots, slices, etc.
So, it was a better use of my time.

And it was a revelation for him, for which he was appreciative.
He is clearly changing his practice methodology going forward.
 
P

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
The good side of being obsessed with techniques like that guy is: once they have gained match experience, they will be a nightmare. Given they practice their footwork too, because techniques without footwork is just sh*t. Give it 1 year or 2, play some matches, learn some tough lesson, those guys will be the ones moving up the ladder.
 
heninfan99

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
What's up with your friend NYTA?
Will you hit with him again?

TimeToPlaySets said:
At one point during the rally, he was tiring, and could not sustain a rally.
Like his feed would go into the net or long. I was spending more time picking up balls.

So, at that point, you need to change the session.
With a practice set, I would be serving, returning serves, drop shots, slices, etc.
So, it was a better use of my time.

And it was a revelation for him, for which he was appreciative.
He is clearly changing his practice methodology going forward.
Click to expand...
 
Dartagnan64

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
I play early morning practice sessions with my wife. Next to us is a couple of men that play early morning hitting sessions. They play for about 2 hours hitting mini tennis then NML tennis then baseline rallies. Never play a point. Just hit groundies and half volleys forever.

My wife and I start with mini cross court, move to baseline cross court, volley practice, overhead practice, one set of singles and one set of one on one doubles. By the end we've worked on every important shot in tennis.

These other guys have just hit two types of shots for 2 hours. I'm sure those shots are good but I have no idea if either one can actually hit a serve.
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Dartagnan64 said:
I play early morning practice sessions with my wife. Next to us is a couple of men that play early morning hitting sessions. They play for about 2 hours hitting mini tennis then NML tennis then baseline rallies. Never play a point. Just hit groundies and half volleys forever.

My wife and I start with mini cross court, move to baseline cross court, volley practice, overhead practice, one set of singles and one set of one on one doubles. By the end we've worked on every important shot in tennis.

These other guys have just hit two types of shots for 2 hours. I'm sure those shots are good but I have no idea if either one can actually hit a serve.
Click to expand...

The guys I have seen who do this usually cite shoulder problems (real/imaginary/past/present I can't say) for not hitting serves.
 
Fxanimator1

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
Dartagnan64 said:
I play early morning practice sessions with my wife. Next to us is a couple of men that play early morning hitting sessions. They play for about 2 hours hitting mini tennis then NML tennis then baseline rallies. Never play a point. Just hit groundies and half volleys forever.

My wife and I start with mini cross court, move to baseline cross court, volley practice, overhead practice, one set of singles and one set of one on one doubles. By the end we've worked on every important shot in tennis.

These other guys have just hit two types of shots for 2 hours. I'm sure those shots are good but I have no idea if either one can actually hit a serve.
Click to expand...

The way you guys do your practice is how me, my wife and son practice except we do 2 hours of hitting different strokes before we play fast 4 format for an hour or so.(y)
 
NastyWinners

NastyWinners

Hall of Fame
Typical hitting partner hits go like...

5-10 minutes of Mini Tennis
5-10 minutes of relaxed rallying
10-20 minutes of harder paced rallying
10-20 minutes volleys/overheads
10-20 minutes of serves/return of serves

and if time allows, some ground stroke games/fast 4's,/ tiebreaks.
 
jm1980

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
TimeToPlaySets said:
This is a place to discuss the merits of matches vs fixation on technique with no larger context.
Click to expand...
The even larger context is that there are many people who will beat you 6-0 6-0. Unless you're making a living out of it and playing for money, who's to say what is the "right" or "wrong" way to play tennis? Some people just want to go out there and rally. Some people want to win at all costs. At the end of the day, it's just rec tennis; it doesn't really matter.
 
Fxanimator1

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
jm1980 said:
The even larger context is that there are many people who will beat you 6-0 6-0. Unless you're making a living out of it and playing for money, who's to say what is the "right" or "wrong" way to play tennis? Some people just want to go out there and rally. Some people want to win at all costs. At the end of the day, it's just rec tennis; it doesn't really matter.
Click to expand...

TRUTH!
 
TimeToPlaySets

TimeToPlaySets

Legend
This is one of the best things I've ever read about tennis
www.feeltennis.net

The Myth Of Correct Tennis Technique | Feel Tennis

The biggest myth in tennis is: “If you perform tennis technique correctly, the ball will go over (well).” This idea then leads to the next one: “If you missed a shot, you did something technically wrong, and your goal is to find out what you did wrong and correct it. If you correct that...
www.feeltennis.net www.feeltennis.net
 
dsb

dsb

Rookie
I guess I'm one of 'those guys'... at least I probably seem like it to the folks around here anyway. I played Jr's, 10 and under thru 18's, but I quit when I was 17 (1980) and hadn't even looked at a tennis racquet until a couple years ago. I've completely re-worked my game to use 'modern' technique, and I can be found at the court most mornings working on my serve, some mornings hitting on the ball machine. I have at least one lesson every week, and usually a couple of hitting sessions a week with guys from the local Univ. team, but I don't really 'play'. Sometimes I get sucked into filling in a 4th with the old guys playing doubles, but that sucks, and mostly I just get annoyed. I'll play points with the college kids (UTR 12 -13), and the best I've done is losing 14-21. The thing is though, I was up 12-10, but I'm old (57) and fat (200+) and was completely gassed at that point. Because of my age and health issues, I don't know that I'll ever get into the shape I need to be in to 'hang' with the college kids, but I enjoy playing at that level, not so much with the old guys.
 
T

tennis tom

Legend
dsb said:
Because of my age and health issues, I don't know that I'll ever get into the shape I need to be in to 'hang' with the college kids, but I enjoy playing at that level, not so much with the old guys.
Click to expand...
Unless you're a Tom Brown, don't even think of being competitive with the youngins', it's a losing proposition--time/gravity. Find a group in your age group who don't cheat and hang with them--if you plan on competing do it in your Age Group Senior Tournaments. Move to somewhere hot and you'll lose weight fast playing in the noon day sun--the desert's still warm 'til November. Run in the pool with a flotation belt and do some swimming to stretch it out and you won't hurt yourself--g'luck!
 
Dan Huben

Dan Huben

Semi-Pro
Come to Nola. I play with an older crowd and they still run and play singles. Competitive but fun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
R1FF

R1FF

Professional
Trying to lose weight via caloric deficit, tedious cardio, the heat, swimming, etc is really inefficient and almost always results in failure. It’s hardly sustainable and what’s worse, not the root issue of being overweight.

10s of Millions attempt it every year. They mostly all fail. And it aint for lack of effort or enthusiasm. They’re simply going about the issue wrong.

A nutrition overhaul is the answer. And 99% of Americans will not make the change needed if given the choice.

So dont beat yourself up in the gym. It will only quicken the wear & tear on your body and will not get you the results you’re after.
 
Last edited:
TimeToPlaySets

TimeToPlaySets

Legend
Correct. Gym is good for health markers, but not weight loss. Lots of fat people at the gym.
Weight loss = low carb diet. Kill all sugar and simple carbs. Only drink water. No fruit even. Heavy protein.

Playing tennis 5x a week is all the conditioning you need.
In a 3 set singles match, there are only maybe 3-4 times where you're out of breath (eg: chase down 2 drops/lobs in a single point)
 
T

tennis tom

Legend
R1FF said:
Trying to lose weight via caloric deficit, tedious cardio, the heat, swimming, etc is really inefficient and almost always results in failure. It’s hardly sustainable and what’s worse, not the root issue of being overweight.

10s of Millions attempt it every year. They mostly all fail. And it aint for lack of effort or enthusiasm. They’re simply going about the issue wrong.

A nutrition overhaul is the answer. And 99% of Americans will not make the change needed if given the choice.

So dont beat yourself up in the gym. It will only quicken the wear & tear on your body and will not get you the results you’re after.
Click to expand...
tennis tom said:
Move to somewhere hot and you'll lose weight fast playing in the noon day sun--the desert's still warm 'til November. Run in the pool with a flotation belt and do some swimming to stretch it out and you won't hurt yourself--g'luck!
Click to expand...
I went from 211 to 181 using my regimen.
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
TimeToPlaySets said:
Correct. Gym is good for health markers, but not weight loss. Lots of fat people at the gym.
Weight loss = low carb diet. Kill all sugar and simple carbs. Only drink water. No fruit even. Heavy protein.

Playing tennis 5x a week is all the conditioning you need.
In a 3 set singles match, there are only maybe 3-4 times where you're out of breath (eg: chase down 2 drops/lobs in a single point)
Click to expand...
Some matches I don’t need much cardio. But most matches having better cardio would have been helpful. It depends on your style, your opponent’s style, and the weather conditions.
 
Pitti

Pitti

Rookie
That guy reminds me of one of my friends with whom I hit once a week. He's a perfectionist guy who obsesses about stroke technique. He is trying to get a good serve, forehand and backhand and also thinks on the angles of the arms and positioning of the wrist. But he absolutely refuses to compete. I can seldom convince him of playing one or two tiebreaks, in which I win pretty easily, since he's not used to serve under any kind of pressure and doesn't practice second serves. Whenever I tell him he should play some matches, even if friendly relaxed matches against me, his friend (that means there are no strangers) he says it's silly, that he competes "against himself" :rolleyes: and that counting points is just useful for boosting pride (I reply that if pride depends on a tennis match, it can be easily destroyed...)

I've joined an amateur league and will continue hitting with him. So far, he's refused to join the same league, but he's asked me about it with some curiosity. I'm completely convinced he fears losing although he will never recognize it.
 
R1FF

R1FF

Professional
tennis tom said:
I went from 211 to 181 using my regimen.
Click to expand...

Did it stay off? Or did you regain it?

Either way, you do realize the standard weight loss regimens mostly always fail, making you an outlier. Hardly an advisable path wouldnt you say?

I went from 35% body fat to 11%. 45 lbs in less than 90 days. And guess what? It stays off. And I feel great. It was all nutrition related.

I’ve also coached over 50 people thru the process. 100% success rate. Some were over 40% body fat and now are down to 16% without any training, starving/dieting, or drugs.

The science of the human body is exactly that, a science. Getting healthy is a lot easier/more simple than we’ve made it as a culture. Giving up sugar gets infinitely better results than trying to burn off fat while your body isnt even in a fat burning mode. BUT... giving up sugar is VERY difficult for most to do.

The issue is further complicated by the fact that most equate “skinny” to being healthy. Which is a mistake.

I’d argue the treadmill is more difficult because it doesnt get results efficiently. But then again, Im results oriented. Most people are not. They want their cake and to eat it too! (pun intended)
 
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