Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
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The first step is admitting I have a problem...
- Thread starter travlerajm
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Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Kevin doesn't SAY anything about slicing. He makes a slight slice when he actually has to hit the volley. And this seems to happen a lot with these coaching videos. When they demonstrate the shot with a ball, they hit it the right way but they say something else. Even the takeback is a little different between when he is breaking down the shot with instruction and when he actually hits a volley.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
On that 4:50 volley in the vid, I didn’t feel like my hands were solid/firm enough to have good depth control. Too much passive block and not enough deliberate stick.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Could you point out the time of the video where he suggests that? Quote of what he said? I did not pick that up.
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travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Um... it’s the whole point of the entire video.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Maintain an open face, allowing the ball to land into the stringbed like a basketball hoop and lean forward and 'hit' with the body. It's the body momentum that's going to produce whatever power you want on the volley. You don't produce it by any exaggerated movement of the racquet itself. If it feels like a block, it's not necessarily a bad thing at all. You do need a tight grip on the volley to make sure that the racquet doesn't move on contact, which possibly may have given you that feeling of loss of control you describe.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
You mean how Federer finishes 90% of the volleys with the tip of his racquet pointing at the ground? The exact opposite of what Kevin says to do.
He is volleying off a ball machine and it looks like trash. That should be a clue.
J
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Am I mistaken or was Fed actually late on that very first volley that he takes in what looks like a very awkward way at around or above shoulder?
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Similar location on the court. Difference is that it looks like your serve-and-volley was premeditated, so you were already close to the service line when you split-stepped. I’m actually more comfortable in that situation. It’s the other common situation where I’m racing forward to reach a weak reply that causes me grief. Earlier in the same game, I bricked one badly into the net after the bounce in the same situation where I’m late reacting and charging forward on the point where Max executes the tweener several shots before. I was thinking too much about the potential for getting posterized by losing a tweener point that I couldn’t concentrate on the shot.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
This video is showing more shoulder motion and less elbow motion that the Federer volleys. On shots that are more to the side the elbow can still be seen to extend but there is more shoulder motion.
Fuzzy Yellow Balls video.
On the video above Leander Paes had more shoulder motion also.
Some of these volleys might be more jamming incoming balls than Federer's practice.
I'd say that there are at least 3 volley techniques and maybe 4.
Federer
Murray
Paes, can't see arm.
? Bryan (more abbreviated minimal motion, close up practice?)
I would guess that the elbow extending volley might add more pace to a non-pressuring incoming ball. ?
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user92626
G.O.A.T.
Are you trying to liken it to ground stroke shots, ie we're supposed to do that with ground stroke shots, too?
I really don't do this "squeeze, relax, squeeze, relax" thing with my ground strokes. I do not see any problems with my ground strokes. This would be a new concept / technique for me to try.
I think it was coach Bill Bungalo, who was very knowledgeable and someone I respected, who said you were supposed to hold the racket as loosely as you hold a small sparrow or an egg (through out the swing). I don't exactly know how hard to hold the handle, but I don't feel any pressure, and never have any problem.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
On the nonpressuring incoming balls, Fed gets his elbow fully extended and well out in front at contact. I think this adds control and maybe pace by locking the elbow. But it’s not the elbow extension per se that adds pace, unlike in the KG vid.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Why don't you look at what is the same between them instead of what is different?
J
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Jolly,
Even if @Chas Tennis is wrong, he does put forth a coherent argument while you seem a bit arrogant.
I understand that Chas is referring to the technique that uses a lot of Elbow movement and he backs that up with Federer evidence. Chas also acknowledges that there maybe different techniques -- the other one being the "shoulder action" one. But I haven't seen you refute Federer technique with credible response other than ..."the tip of his racquet pointing at the ground" (!!?)
maybe over-thinking it... the volley is such a brief motion... the hand alone should be able to handle it.. elbow doesn't matter bent or straight. actually if you force straight that means tension and is no good.
volley is all feel... catch the ball and squeeze the handle... very very simple stuff.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Tonight I’m playing against a pro who beats me about 60% of our matches.
I will focus on testing out straighter-arm technique a la Bryan Bros and see if it helps.
The more disciplined JM technique where he is fully locked straight arm at contact might be harder to implement for my rec player muscle memory.
I will focus on testing out straighter-arm technique a la Bryan Bros and see if it helps.
The more disciplined JM technique where he is fully locked straight arm at contact might be harder to implement for my rec player muscle memory.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes, he is. KG's words don't match what is happening in the video, he sees just what he wants to see.
J
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
There aren't many techniques, there is a foundation which you can add to based on your level and the difficulty of the ball.
Why would I refute Federer technique? It's excellent albeit difficult for rec players to time.
Why don't you look at how he volleys for real compared to when he is jackassing around in practice?
See any difference?
J
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
If anything, Federer’s arm is straighter at contact than Bob Bryan’s with almost identical technique. The elbow joint is effectively locked with respect to power generation. The elbow joint extends prior to contact but is already fully extended prior to contact, as demonstrated by JM. This is going in the opposite direction of what KG says to do:
MisterP
Hall of Fame
Doesn't Fed add some swing based on the height and pace? Compare the forehand volley he hits at 1:12 to the one at 1:49. At 1:12 the ball is high and floaty, and he actually uses quite a bit of backswing and follow through but still hits a traditional volley. The one at 1:49, Dimitrov laces it at him and Roger just puts his racquet in place and lets it do the talking.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Federer develops considerable racket head speed from extending the elbow in that video. Then the forearm and racket are moving fast. Once the arm & racket have been sped up by elbow extension muscles the racket keeps heading toward impact. When the arm becomes straight, the elbow must be stopped from extending beyond straight. All muscles power could have stopped before impact. The shoulder joint - with or without muscle power - can then take over swinging the arm and racket. Straight or bent elbow at impact does not matter much as far as I know, at least not for racket head speed.
I found the points of Kevin's comments were that
1) the elbow extension could be used for racket head speed and
2) the upper arm elevation could be used to make the backhand volley more reproducible and especially to prevent the ball from going low into the net.
Nobody has been able to show any evidence to show otherwise.
There are other volley techniques, maybe for other circumstances. The elbow extension volley may not be the best for all or any circumstances, to be determined.
Fully extended arm or not at impact does not, in itself, necessarily make a difference. Both straight arm and bent arm impacts will appear in videos and I have not done stats to find %.
If I get a ball to work on, no pressure, not very low, I'm staying in place, I have added pace to my backhand volley a few times with elbow extension but it is not a good motion yet.
Interesting thread, we've learned a lot.
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travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
While some of what you point out is true, I believe the biggest difference between the BB/RF techniques and my technique is that my volley stroke has too many degrees of freedom. These vids help show that the primary degree of freedom for high level bh volleys is at the shoulder, while other degrees of freedom are minimal relative to rec level bh volley strokes.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
I understand that you are just into the science of things and not really interested so much in getting better or helping others get better, but just as a thought exercise, let's say you took 100TT posters who needed help with their backhand volley, how many of them would have lack of pace as their primary problem?
J
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Federer - elbow extension, not shoulder according to videos posted. We disagree on this.
Murray ?? - To what degree does he run through the ball and what joints move?
? Bryan - yes for those volleys which may have been quick reflex volleys.
Paes ?- in video, arm blocked by the body, could not see, but there was a lot of shoulder or maybe shoulder girdle action. Was that mostly for shots into body?
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xFullCourtTenniSx
Hall of Fame
Looks like the ball landed at the side T. Aim closer and you risk putting a lot of balls wide, which throws away the advantage you gained.
You hit the volley from below the tape and behind the service line. In what world is that supposed to be anything but an approach (volley) shot? First volley in a normal serve and volley is to approach the net, and the second volley is the put away. You didn't even intend to serve and volley, and got an even worse first volley than you could've if you blindly committed to charging right after the serve (which is not what I'm saying you should do, just contrasting the situations). Ironically, compared to high level serve and volley, you actually got the average first volley most S&V players have to deal with (contact around service line and around the net tape height or slightly lower, though you're maybe a step or two back). And by high level S&V, I mean server went big and returner got a clean hit back, so the ball comes fast and server barely make it to the service line despite their speed and prompt movement to the net.
If they pop it up high and slow, by all means put it away on the first ball. But that's not what happened here. MAYBE if you committed right away, you get a step or two inside the service line and catch it just above the net height. That should still be played as an approach shot (if you care about percentages).
Players with really good feel might go for a tighter spot and use the spin to keep it away from the enemy, but that's equivalent to a player with a big groundstroke going for a flat one down the line from 3+ feet behind the baseline when most players should either play it crosscourt or loop it down the line. Players that are really good at this can pull it off often enough to say it's a reasonable gamble, but most players are throwing away points for free if they try to play like this.
The stroke itself looks perfectly fine. The only criticism is that maybe a better volleyer would've added more underspin to keep it low and make it a tougher volley while giving themselves a little more margin over the net. I'd also perhaps maybe preferred to land the ball at the baseline (depends on how far back the player normally plays). I think the real problem here is shot selection and decision-making. If you're trying to hit winners off of shots that should be played more conservatively, that would explain why you're missing balls.
The difference is not as big as you think. You already took 2 steps inside the court between landing and split stepping (you REALLY cheated forward expecting a weak ball). You were halfway inside no man's land. J0lly is only a few feet further into the court, but had to deal with a faster ball than you did, which is why you both ended up hitting it at the same spot (his was lower though).
J0lly hit a winner there, but if Max hit the same return (as opposed to the floater he gave you), he would've gotten to J0lly's volley too. The returner didn't recover after hitting his return, and didn't move until J0lly basically made contact with the ball. Someone as young and fast as Max would at least put a racket on it. But J0lly has the advantage - Max has to hit up over the net and J0lly will be right on top of the net to put it away. I still feel like he should maybe have aimed deeper, but on a low volley around the service line, you can't always be picky. If anything, depending on the level of play, it's better to keep it somewhat low anywhere on the court than get it deep and have it sit up. At J0lly's level, low and short is better than a deep sitter.
On the topic of elbow extension on the backhand volley, it's not nearly as complicated as everyone is making it out to be. One handed backhand players basically use the same or modified (shortened and maybe even flattened) version of their slice backhand groundstroke. Every (good) one hander has a bent elbow on the takeback and a straight arm on contact (how bent or straight varies). Having hit millions of slice backhands, it's only natural to use a similar motion on the volley. A straight arm is easier to hold firm through contact. DO NOT USE IT FOR POWER unless you enjoy having tennis elbow.
Here is Roy Emerson's take on the nonsense argument going on. First ten years, get the racket to contact and stop. Only after you've mastered control of the racket face should you start punching through. As you get better, you get used to playing faster balls. As you get used to faster balls, you take slightly bigger swings without missing. As you take bigger swings without missing, you hit a faster ball. Worrying about what gives you more RHS ON A VOLLEY is absurd. The issue here is consistency, so why are we making that harder to achieve??? Add more stability on contact, line up the racket head better, and so on. Stuff like that is fine, it promotes consistency. But why elbow extension????????? You want to talk about elevated upper arm for consistency, fine. That's at least reasonable. Elbow extension though?
Murray's is likely the easier to copy since it actually has the least arm action to it by far and relies almost entirely on the footwork (though that in itself might be what makes it harder for rec players). Murray literally uses his off hand to place the racket right behind the contact point, and strides through the shot with minimal movement in his dominant hand. It's actually the closest to a two handed volley, which is what you used to use.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
That's a good point -- considering what's effective to teach, even if it's rigid or overly exaggerated.
After all, we don't know if Fed has gone thru throwing rackets to learn the serve, but a lot of TT people have to go thru this unrelated activity just to understand the serve.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Well, in this video I dont' think Fed was jackassing around since it looks like he was getting ready for a match.
Fed employs a lot of elbow action in his bh volley. But, I do agree with you there's a need to teach something more applicable with particular groups. This point is unrelated to the debate over existence of different techniques
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Rained out tonight. My revolutionary new bh volley technique will have to wait.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
rogerroger917
Hall of Fame
But what about the amount of ball fuzz on the strings?
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Dragy
Legend
I think he has one important point which he didn't manage to string well with other stuff: deflecting a non-dead ball requires RF to be well-set at contact. And what's the most reliable way to get racquet face to that place holding it at the edge of the grip? It's pulling the handle with minimal forward momentum. From high down and accross. If you pull it forward too violently it has tendency to lay back - no control this way.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Now you guys are making me confused... how am I supposed to revolutionize my bh volley now?
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Well, I'm not particularly concerned with your problems. I'm sure you will figure it out.
J
lol don't over think it... relax the hand, catch the ball, squeeze the handle.... give it a try.. the ball doesn't care about your elbow or footwork etc lol.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Progress!
Today my 1hb volley was crisp and clean, even when gliding forward or lunging to my left. I think I was perfect on these in my singles match this morning against WTA pro who usually gives me trouble. My stronger net play made a big difference as I relied on net rushes a lot.
I focused on getting elbow extended before contact, and this seemed to clean up the feel and make it feel much more solid and controlled.
Today my 1hb volley was crisp and clean, even when gliding forward or lunging to my left. I think I was perfect on these in my singles match this morning against WTA pro who usually gives me trouble. My stronger net play made a big difference as I relied on net rushes a lot.
I focused on getting elbow extended before contact, and this seemed to clean up the feel and make it feel much more solid and controlled.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Hopefully today was not a one-off. Still TBD how easy it will be to etch the improved technique permanently into muscle memory.
Some wall work would probably be useful.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
How much racket head speed was developed before impact? Was it developed mostly by the shoulder joint or the elbow joint motions or other?
How was your looking at the ball?
Take a high speed video.
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travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
I don’t know. Sorry didn’t high speed video.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Has anyone else noticed that J. Murray tends to "scoop" his FH volley [almost like a swinging volley but without the force] more than most?
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Actually, I was in fact focusing on getting the elbow fully extended straight prior to contact and using the shoulder joint rather than the elbow and hand to generate the punch. The result was the best-feeling 1hb volleys I’ve ever hit in my life. It’s clear now that I’ve been doing it wrong for 25 years.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I am watching Fed Cup Ladies Doubles. So far I saw two backhand volleys that included elbow extension for racket head speed. One appeared to have shoulder motion also. I'm using slow motion on a DVR, playback about 1/2 actual speed. (Stop video and hit forward on my remote and it does slow motion.
If you are interested in whether the elbow extends during the volley watch and count 10 volleys and see what you get. Quick stats are a good way to start.........
I am interested mainly in what causes racket head speed before impact for backhand volleys, not under pressure. Exclude fast reflex volleys and very low or wide volleys. I have thought that both bent elbow or straight elbow at impact are being done but would need to confirm that.
Chas, don't cherry pick.............
If you are interested in whether the elbow extends during the volley watch and count 10 volleys and see what you get. Quick stats are a good way to start.........
I am interested mainly in what causes racket head speed before impact for backhand volleys, not under pressure. Exclude fast reflex volleys and very low or wide volleys. I have thought that both bent elbow or straight elbow at impact are being done but would need to confirm that.
Chas, don't cherry pick.............
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xFullCourtTenniSx
Hall of Fame
Good to know you aren't falling for the tennis elbow bait.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The most powerful backhand volleys that I have felt were by turning the uppermost body to make the chest press on the upper arm. This was somewhat similar in the chest pressing upper arm on the one hand backhand technique that I've described in a thread. Does your chest press on your upper arm?
When last played doubles in Baltimore, there was one player with strokes overall equal to the rest of our doubles league. But for certain volleys, if he got a volley to work above the net he consistently put a lot of pace into the volley. There were no videos, but I believe that his result came from a superior volley technique. ? If we only had a video of his volleys now we would know how well a rec player can volley with technique X.......
Who might be your model volleyer for technique? .
When last played doubles in Baltimore, there was one player with strokes overall equal to the rest of our doubles league. But for certain volleys, if he got a volley to work above the net he consistently put a lot of pace into the volley. There were no videos, but I believe that his result came from a superior volley technique. ? If we only had a video of his volleys now we would know how well a rec player can volley with technique X.......
Who might be your model volleyer for technique? .
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
My simple observations did not go so well. When I found a volley I could play it back at half speed but could not do stop action single frame. I spent quite some time getting a few volleys that I think I could understand but there was usually uncertainty. I quit after 5 volleys.
I was particularly looking for the upperbody motion(s) that most developed racket head speed. I did not consider volleys that were very high, very low, very wide or could not be well seen.
Fed cup doubles match. Ashleigh Barty and Samantha Stosur vs Caroline Garcia and Kristina Mladenovic
(France won)
Stosur
Volley #1
1) Strong volley, close to net
2) Most motion from uppermost body turn
3) Elbow straight
4) shoulder not well seen
Volley #2
1) close to net, volley to feet of M
2) Most motion shoulder joint motion down
3) Elbow bent, fixed?
Volley #3
1) Most motion from shoulder joint
2) Elbow bent at impact.
Barty
none
(one winner volley not counted as too high
1) Most motion from uppermost body turn & shoulder joint.
2) Elbow straight
Mladenovic
Volley #1
1) Higher ball put away.
2) Most motion from both straightening the elbow and shoulder joint.
Garcia
Volley #1
1) Shoulder motion.
2) Elbow bent.
----------------------------
There was a very nice volley shown in slow motion by Tsitsipas
Tsitsipas
Volley #1
1) Low volley
2) Most motion from shoulder
3) Elbow bent fixed.
The elbow extension motion was only observed on one of 6 observed volleys.
Problems
1) could not single frame
2) could not usually see shoulder and elbow motions from the back view of players.
3) variety in volleys for quick exchanges.
I believe that the elbow extension motion volley is most useful for adding pace to an incoming ball that is not causing pressure. ? It would be good to determine what percent elbow extension motion volleys are being used.
The shoulder joint motion has less forward motion and might be used more often when there is more incoming pace and less time. ?
My other remote, Motorola, would allow single frame advance of the DVR. If you have that it is much better than 1/2 speed slow motion or even slow motion of the slow motion being broadcast, probably 1/4 speed playback as seen.
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golden chicken
Hall of Fame
Out of curiosity, @Chas Tennis, any observed volleys utilizing wrist supination or other similar joint motions (ESR?) to add pace to the volleys?
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
My ‘old’ way (prior to last week) to generate power on my 1hb volley when trying to put away a high floater was by supination. I now find that I have much better control if I minimize the supination, get the arm straightened prior to contact, and use the shoulder joint as the primary power generator.
Just remembering to think about getting the arm straightened is magic. Night and day difference for me.
Just remembering to think about getting the arm straightened is magic. Night and day difference for me.
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