5sets
Hall of Fame
I wish there was an unlike thumbs down button on here. Lol, I knew you would try
Are sandbaggers really just the best players at level?
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Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Sandbagging is really not as big of a deal as you all are making it seem. There are always going to be players at the top of any level, by definition. It doesn’t mean they are throwing matches.
5sets
Hall of Fame
Any number crunchers out there can confirm that 0.05 is and always will be the range of Appealing up or Down?
5sets
Hall of Fame
Correct a 4.49 should always beat a 4.00 6-0 6-0 but we are talking about by definition those that purposely throw games or even throw matches. That’s what a Sandbagger is.
MaxTennis
Professional
BallBag
Professional
I ran a ballbag report on your nnumbes and it shows you are between 4.55 and 4.95.
MaxTennis
Professional
I personally prefer UTR a lot more because I play Open tournaments as well as league, so it captures all of my results.
I’m 10.49 UTR right now in singles vs 4.52 in TennisRecord.
5sets
Hall of Fame
So are we all in agreement that Tennis Record is + or - .10 on actual USTA dNTRP? I posed the over/under question in another thread and didn’t get much of an answer
BallBag
Professional
Appeal range is 0.05 and you got denied up and down. Using statistical regression and the central limit theorem, I deduced that you rating is 4.75 +- 0.20 with a 3 sigma uncertainty.
schmke
Legend
Lots of cases TR is off far more than that.
MaxTennis
Professional
l see lol
5sets
Hall of Fame
Yes, I see some people that should have bumped up or down < .2 but pretty rare
5sets
Hall of Fame
Thank you. That’s what I’ve been saying. Reward those who improve. Free breakfast at IHOP or something, lol.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Because the appeal range is a statistical margin of error. It is players who they were not really sure should be bumped.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
To play devil’s advocate, the appeal lets guys continue to play league tennis who are too borderline to find a new team at the next level.
It’s not about improving. There’s no way to improve without getting matches in the first place.
I don't buy it. There is no stats involved. There is a well defined function (the rating algorithm). You feed it inputs (starting ratings and results) and it spits out an output. The result is what it is.
I think the auto appeal is just there to appease players who would rather keep dominating at a lower level (at the expense of others at that level) rather than suck it up and take their knocks at the higher level. If they are really out of their league then they will get bumped back down the following year.
So they end up taking up spots at the lower level thus shutting out some players at the bottom of that level. So how does this result in a net positive?
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
How will they get enough matches to get bumped down? I know two guys who got bumped to 4.5 and had to sit out of spring league the next year.
An unfortunate situation. But if instead they played 4.0 they would be taking up spots at the expense of lower level 4.0s who now would not be able to get enough matches to get bumped down to 3.5. So it just shifts the problem to someone else.
Put it another way, your friends probably couldn't get playing time at 4.5 because of the spots taken up by 4.5A players.
Vox Rationis
Professional
I'm pretty sure it's a sliding scale and not a hard cut off (i.e. 4.05) like others mentioned above. "You feed it inputs." Sometimes people don't have a lot of inputs to feed it. In those situations the margin of error is larger, near 4.10. Then the more matches you've played, the smaller your appeal range is. Finally, if I remember correctly (probably not), you can't appeal if you've played a certain amount of matches a.k.a. "The result is what it is". I think all in all it takes into account what you're saying while realizing that people with fewer matches may not be rated 100% true to their skill due to lack of results. Seems fair.
To be clear, I'm not saying that the rating is 100% reflective of skill. Just that it's formula driven and thus an absolute result. Which of course is only as good as the formula and the data fed into it.
So yeah some people might end up with a rating higher than their actual skill, and some with lower. Such is life. I still think auto appeals do much more harm than good.
schmke
Legend
Whether appeals are good or not is a tough subject.
There may be legitimate situations where appealing down is a good thing, particularly if a player is unable to play at the higher level due to no teams at that level or a actual "mistake" spit out by the algorithm where someone can't really compete at the higher level but one of the strange situations that can occur does. If being bumped up and not having an avenue to appeal down causes someone to quit playing, that isn't a good thing.
On the other hand, it is certainly something that can be abused if every bumped up player is hitting the appeal button and some that genuinely can compete at the higher level are having it granted. Just like an algorithm "mistake" could bump someone up inappropriately, an algorithm "mistake" could end up having someone close enough to the threshold to appeal down when it shouldn't have, and now this mistake is compounded by the player being able to appeal down.
On the whole, I think there is probably less good about appeals than bad and I'd vote for doing away with them, or at least doing away with auto-appeals and making players file manual appeals, but there are issues with that too as how do you ensure appeal review is done fairly and equitably, and where does a committee draw the line.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
People want to play on teams with their friends and social groups. Most would be fine if new teams were easy to find. But they aren’t. All a new potential captain has to do is look you up on TR or TLS, see that you were a level below last season, see who you lost to, and all the sudden you aren’t getting a call back.
All you say is true, but applies equally to those already near the bottom of a level who struggle to get playing time partly because many spots are taken by appeal adjusted players.
Anyway I respect your opinion and we can agree to disagree
Matthew ATX
Semi-Pro
Haha. Everyone did. Literally, everyone. I knew mine wouldn't be granted.
I'm actually excited about the match play I will get at 4.5. Finding all new teams and tournament partners now that I'm not even remotely in demand? That, I am not enjoying so far. I feel like I'm standing on the corner with a "Will play 4.5 for food" sign.
To me sandbagging is more than just manipulating a ranking, it's the psychology behind it. To me, a sandbagger is someone that values a WIN over a weaker opponent more than the CHALLENGE of playing against an equal/stronger opponent. I view this as a lack of honor, lack of personal integrity.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those that LOVE winning more than they hate losing, and those that HATE losing more than they love winning. Sandbaggers are the first, win at all costs. The second take a loss as motivation to work harder, improve themselves. A sandbagger doesn't have the self-belief to choose this path.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those that LOVE winning more than they hate losing, and those that HATE losing more than they love winning. Sandbaggers are the first, win at all costs. The second take a loss as motivation to work harder, improve themselves. A sandbagger doesn't have the self-belief to choose this path.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
That really has nothing to do with it
Nothing? Nothing?? Ok. Enlighten me. Since what I described has NOTHING to do with sandbagging, what is the EXACT cause of sandbagging?
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Haters. Guys can’t win at their level, so they start calling anyone who beats them a sandbagger or a pusher. It’s like clockwork. Anytime a guy starts talking about sandbagging, just pull up his recent USTA profile and there is like a 100% chance he just posted a 1-1 loss.
5sets
Hall of Fame
Now you’re describing two different entities. Haters and Sandbaggers. Just because Haters call everyone who beat them a Sandbagger does not mean actual Sandbaggers don’t exist. These are the ones that hit that appeal down button to coast through another season at 12-3 rather than continue to improve and play at their computer generated level and face a 1-4 season as they will likely get less playing time.
dcdoorknob
Hall of Fame
Definitely not in agreement. I'm a 3.19 on TR, have a teammate who is a 3.14, both bumped to 4.0. So it was off by >.30 in both cases and >.35 in my teammates case.
dcdoorknob
Hall of Fame
Not all bump ups even dominated at their lower level, for whatever that's worth, especially this year in sections with an large % of bump ups like Southern and Texas. By my best count I went 11-10 in league matches that counted towards USTA rating this past year, all 3.5 matches, never playing up. Got bumped to 4.0, had my appeal down granted. I was surprised to be bumped and thought a .523 winning percentage was pretty indicative that I was already at the right level. Good god, I don't know how I would have ever convinced a local 4.0 team to play me ever after going 11-10 at 3.5 the previous year.
schmke
Legend
Yes, in all likelihood you were a "Texas" bump up, but 3.19 was still way too low for you.
But what are we to take away from the USTA making such a radical bump up in Texas? Yes, Texas has done well at 3.5 the past few years, and the usual year-end calculations should take that into account, but it appears they did more than that. It is almost like they decided to punish a good portion of the 3.5s in Texas with bump ups for the crimes of the few.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Doesn’t matter. According to this site, you are weak for appealing. Unsporting, and just another sandbagger. Instead of appealing, you should sit out of rec tennis until a 4.0 team takes a risk on you.
Vox Rationis
Professional
Dear god the hyperbole
dcdoorknob
Hall of Fame
I do agree with this. Why should people across the entire state be bumped because some captain and team in Houston spends all their free time trying to game the system and wins nationals?
Matthew ATX
Semi-Pro
One of my teammates had a 22% win percentage at 18+. 62% at 40+. He did okay in tournaments; one MZ win (playing with me) and two losses in the finals (to me) playing with high rated players but definitely didn't dominate. Finished at #10 in the rankings. TR has him at 3.78. Bumped to 4.5. Appeal denied.
5sets
Hall of Fame
But if people all across Texas got bumped from 3.5 to 4.0 doesn’t that mean they will be facing the same opponents in 2020 during the regular season that they did in 2019? ??? Embrace the bump up and things will work out. When a MLB player gets sent down to the Minor Leagues to work on his game for a bit does he tell his manager to keep him there or does he work to get stronger so he can play where he belongs again?
Matthew ATX
Semi-Pro
No... All the 4.0's that didn't get bumped to 4.5 (85%) are still in 4.0. So that's who the fresh bumps from 3.5 will mostly be playing.
Matthew ATX
Semi-Pro
Well the problem is, I don't think some of these unfair bumps are going to have many competitive matches at the next level. I think Texas reached a good ways too far. They definitely weren't winning 2&3 week in and week out. The one I mentioned wasn't winning much at all in league.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
So can there exist a female sandbagger?
Every woman I know that got a bump down appealed back up.
Most women I know who believe they are at the top of a level and didn't get bumped hit the appeal up button ... many succeeded.
Perhaps at the 4.5 level it changes, but definitely the 3.0/3.5/4.0 world all seem to want a bump up and consider a bump down to be a crushing blow.
Every woman I know that got a bump down appealed back up.
Most women I know who believe they are at the top of a level and didn't get bumped hit the appeal up button ... many succeeded.
Perhaps at the 4.5 level it changes, but definitely the 3.0/3.5/4.0 world all seem to want a bump up and consider a bump down to be a crushing blow.
Matthew ATX
Semi-Pro
Yea, they exist. Came across a 3.0S in the semis of a mixed draw at a major zone. She was an All-American in college.
She got triple bumped to 4.5M, lol.
She got triple bumped to 4.5M, lol.
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