I really, really enjoyed the Davis Cup Finals despite the many problems. That was the most Davis Cup tennis I've watched in a long, long time. ATP Cup Finals also were a big improvement over the previous events at that time.The tour is like a circus that travels the world touching down here and there.
The only problem with a rival emerging is that they may cherry-pick opportunities based on the key centres.
Look at the revamped Davis Cup, which completely changed that event, and not for the better.
My prediction would be that this novelty will fall over due to the pandemic, and the Davis Cup will return to its roots.
I really, really enjoyed the Davis Cup Finals despite the many problems. That was the most Davis Cup tennis I've watched in a long, long time. ATP Cup Finals also were a big improvement over the previous events at that time.
I had no idea you were such a reactionary.
I'm not sure what you mean by cherry picking? (Just having the best players at your event I presume.) For Covid I think this is necessary and Adria tour was trying to have a spectrum of players, but you do have to have those crowd pleasers to fill the stands. For these first steps its just too much to have qualifiers, etc. We are going to be cherry picking until we have a vaccine out of necessity. The tour will come in later and once we have a vaccine will be able to do more full qualifiers. Perhaps the qualifier spots for Madrid and Rome should be filled by some other system in the meantime? (Not sure what they plan to do.)My prediction is that change will come in a bad way with various entrepreneurs trying to cherry-pick elements of the tour.
We already have two recent examples of this.
Your being a reactionary to being called a reactionary; it just appears to be in your nature.You'd be wrong about that. I'm merely taking into account the real-world appetite for change.
Even without the pandemic, these threads recommending a total re-set pop up very often.
No one has proposed anything interesting in the past, and no one is doing it here.
Your being a reactionary to being called a reactionary; it just appears to be in your nature.
See my post above to wet your appetite or at least get a few brain cells functioning.
Sometimes the end of slams are heaven, but as a whole they are not great to watch. I'll take Madrid and Rome back to back over RG for example. I watch more than most, but last week of slam really gets to be snoozeville with matches every other day. Its just awful when the draw gets torn up for various reasons at a slam. Also the first round is very touch and go and luck of the draw at a slam. Sometimes the huge amount of matches is great, but at other times just luck of the draw sometimes just comes up with nothing. By round 2 usually more on the table. The matches are so long of course that we do have to set aside time in our lives for those slam weeks to watch a lot of tennis. With regular tour often you get three finals on Sunday, six SFs on Saturday; with slam you just get final these days and if its a less alluring one well all your eggs just went rotten in your basket.My re-set for the tour would go something like this:
1. Four grand slams a year
2. Eight ATP grand slam look-alikes a year
3. A twelve slam calendar like a F1 Grand Prix Calendar
4. An F2 calendar revolving around a global team competition
All this is completely off the top of my head, but the reality is that slams are more interesting than anything else, but we only get four!
I don't think the OP really was interested in completely reordering the calendar and I doubt much of that happens post vaccine.1. Australia
2. Indian Wells
3. Miami
4. Madrid
5. Rome
6. Paris
7. Queens
8. Wimbledon
9. Montreal
10. New York
11. Tokyo
12. Shanghai
That looks like a good calendar depending on who wants to buy the events.
I don't think the OP really was interested in completely reordering the calendar and I doubt much of that happens post vaccine.
Reactionary - opposing tennis liberalization or reform.I'm no longer sure you know the meaning of the term.
Sometimes the end of slams are heaven, but as a whole they are not great to watch. I'll take Madrid and Rome back to back over RG for example. I watch more than most, but last week of slam really gets to be snoozeville with matches every other day. Its just awful when the draw gets torn up for various reasons at a slam. Also the first round is very touch and go and luck of the draw at a slam. Sometimes the huge amount of matches is great, but at other times just luck of the draw sometimes just comes up with nothing. By round 2 usually more on the table. The matches are so long of course that we do have to set aside time in our lives for those slam weeks to watch a lot of tennis. With regular tour often you get three finals on Sunday, six SFs on Saturday; with slam you just get final these days and if its a less alluring one well all your eggs just went rotten in your basket.
Fair enough, but we've had so many calendar reorganizing threads that well I'm just concerned thats where this one will end up with all the usual suspects. Present company excepted.It's all imaginary so you might as well have a complete re-set.
Reactionary - opposing tennis liberalization or reform.
Fits you like a glove.
Slams are quite democratic. A masters is supposed to be a week long slam. The problem with masters is the field is so small for many of them so they exclude so many players, often players in better form than all but the top, top players. I like more slams, but those are big! I guess its a no brainer to vault Indian Wells up to slam status with a full 128 player field? I despise the first round at IW with the 32 seeds have a bye.Maybe we could keep some of them as well. Eight slams and eight Masters would solve your problem.
January: ATP/Davis Cup Qualifiers
--
February: ATP/Davis Cup Finals
--
March: AO -- Grand Slam #1
--
April: Monte-Carlo -- Masters 1000 #1
April: Rome -- Masters 1000 #2
--
May: French Open -- Grand Slam #2
--
June: Halle -- Masters 1000 #3
June: Queens' Club -- Masters 1000 #4
--
July: Wimbledon -- Grand Slam #3
--
August: Canada -- Masters 1000 #5
August: Cincinnati -- Masters 1000 #6
--
September: Indian Wells -- Masters 1000 #7
September: Miami -- Masters 1000 #8
--
October: US Open -- Grand Slam #4
--
November: ATP World Tour Finals
--
December: ATP/Davis Cup Pre-Qualifiers
I've quoted @Third Serve because I've borrowed heavily from his great post last year.
As much as people on here moaned and whinged about national team tennis not being a thing, the ATP Cup was huge and even the molested Davis Cup got more interest than the old one. I think the tour should expand on that (in kind of a world cup of soccer format), then have a clear 4 months in Europe (2 months slow, 2 months fast) and 3 months in America, rather than hopping all over the place. In the short term, that will also help with quarantine.
With the clear differentiation of regional swings, there should also be clear surface differentiation. Yes, I can dream.
Of course there are things you could pick at, nothing is perfect .. but that's better than what we see now.
Now we have some common ground! Grass m1000 plz!If there were ever a good time for that, it's now.
I wouldn't mind seeing one M1000 on grass, and players not forced to choose between Halle and Queen's.
1) not enough clay.I've quoted @Third Serve because I've borrowed heavily from his great post last year.
As much as people on here moaned and whinged about national team tennis not being a thing, the ATP Cup was huge and even the molested Davis Cup got more interest than the old one. I think the tour should expand on that (in kind of a world cup of soccer format), then have a clear 4 months in Europe (2 months slow, 2 months fast) and 3 months in America, rather than hopping all over the place. In the short term, that will also help with quarantine.
With the clear differentiation of regional swings, there should also be clear surface differentiation. Yes, I can dream.
Of course there are things you could pick at, nothing is perfect .. but that's better than what we see now.
I like the way they have been jazzing up the ATP final as an entertainment event.I really, really enjoyed the Davis Cup Finals despite the many problems. That was the most Davis Cup tennis I've watched in a long, long time. ATP Cup Finals also were a big improvement over the previous events at that time.
I had no idea you were such a reactionary.
1) not enough clay.
2) can make some room by dumping Davis cup entirely. Replace with results of the top 3-5 players from each nation at the 4 slams. The top 4 nations have a 4 team playoff at the ATP finals. Adds a national interest angle to the slams
You have to have established tournaments or really big names. Fed's Laver Cup was an instant success, but loaded with many of the top players each year.I like the way they have been jazzing up the ATP final as an entertainment event.
Davis Cup is a dinosaur destined to be extinct amongst main stream popularity.
Those fast 4 format and Ultimate Tennis are rubbish, temporary bandits that will not draw a significant amount of new fans but kill off the current loyal ones.
I agreed that ATP needs to seize the opportunity for innovation and I would say one innovation should be focusing on the model of telecasting events: how to improve public's access to official matches. They really should open up the vaults of matches on some sort of super servers. The current telecasting model of a few important matches are too narrow.You have to have established tournaments or really big names. Fed's Laver Cup was an instant success, but loaded with many of the top players each year.
I have no problem with the current experimentation because the events catering to the loyal fans are not back in business given their nature and location. Beggars can't be choosers Fedinkum.
If Davis Cup is going extinct it nearly follows that conventional tennis will meet a similar fate.
I watched another enjoyable UTF match with a nice level of play. It just makes the game far more interesting rather than the lightweight retread at the Battle of the Brits. The current format is very stale. One can go through entire sets that can often be quite boring and time consuming.
One thing really, really wrong with the new formats is a logistical issue. If you schedule players with somewhat shorter matches every day then you are really impacted by weather delays with two matches in a day for the affected players almost guaranteed. For outdoor events you need days off in the schedule for players just so they aren't frequently having to play two matches in a day.
Frankly I'm not inclined to change majors much unless a shorter format that has close to the same rater of favoring the higher ranked/better play. The ATP needs to seize this opportunity for innovation and perhaps year end events and/or beginning events like ATP Cup are a natural initial candidate for change.
You can see in your own post that it's not that easy, you have 4 years for early, 3 for mid and 3 for late. 30-32 / 33-36 / 37-39 would at least be symmetrical (3-4-3 instead of 4-3-3).Indeed, mid 30s starts at 34.
Early 30s 30-33
Mid 34-36
Late 37-39
We are the same age btw
You can see in your own post that it's not that easy, you have 4 years for early, 3 for mid and 3 for late. 30-32 / 33-36 / 37-39 would at least be symmetrical (3-4-3 instead of 4-3-3).
I guess you meant 34.5 but that's also wrong. If you take ages 33, 34, 35, 36 the 35th birthday is exactly in the middle! You - like most others - try to calculate with a system from 0 to 9 pretending it was your used system from 1 to 10. It's just completely wrong, and thinking that in the correct system the middle would be 34.5 or 35.5 proves this! In the correct system (mine, with 33,34,35,36 as middle) the middle is exactly the 35th birthday! In YOUR system the middle is at 35.5! (34 to 36 = 34th birthday until 37th birthday, middle 35.5!).There always has to be one grouping with 4 and the other two with 3. The one you suggested has the middle 30s mid date at 35.5 not 35 lol. It makes sense it's the first grouping because the mid one is set already around 35 as the mid point and then the last falls in place automatically. Also because 30 ends in a 0 it makes sense for that to be the grouping with 4 (1+2+3 with the extra 0). The symmetry argument (3-4-3 vs 4-3-3 ) doesn't really make sense to me lol
This is super geeky lol but if you look it up that's how they organize it typically .
resetting some things makes perfect senseUnprecedented times call for unprecedented action.
I tend to think it'd be beneficial.
Otherwise we'll be left with a patchwork arrangement replete with gaps at every turn (rankings, tournaments, calendar, etc.).
Thoughts?
I guess you meant 34.5 but that's also wrong. If you take ages 33, 34, 35, 36 the 35th birthday is exactly in the middle! You - like most others - try to calculate with a system from 0 to 9 pretending it was your used system from 1 to 10. It's just completely wrong, and thinking that in the correct system the middle would be 34.5 or 35.5 proves this! In the correct system (mine, with 33,34,35,36 as middle) the middle is exactly the 35th birthday! In YOUR system the middle is at 35.5! (34 to 36 = 34th birthday until 37th birthday, middle 35.5!).
Peak Vive. Sent this to friend who is Bull fan.resetting some things makes perfect sense
This is a huge opportunity to fill the vacuum left by other sports. ESPN is very gung ho about the US Open I hear. That is at least something, but not an expansion of coverage.I agreed that ATP needs to seize the opportunity for innovation and I would say one innovation should be focusing on the model of telecasting events: how to improve public's access to official matches. They really should open up the vaults of matches on some sort of super servers. The current telecasting model of a few important matches are too narrow.
Unprecedented times call for unprecedented action.
I tend to think it'd be beneficial.
Otherwise we'll be left with a patchwork arrangement replete with gaps at every turn (rankings, tournaments, calendar, etc.).
Thoughts?
I'd love to see a combined Halle/Queens event where each represents half of the draw and the winners face off in a rotating final on Monday between the two sites. So 600 points for winning either basically and then another 400 points for the grand final. The winners of these events are not going to play the ATP 250s so there we have perhaps the grandest masters 1000 on grass. Probably cut down on byes to maybe 4 per event. Have two Masters 1000 back to back before Wimby or the same week is just not workable.I've quoted @Third Serve because I've borrowed heavily from his great post last year.
As much as people on here moaned and whinged about national team tennis not being a thing, the ATP Cup was huge and even the molested Davis Cup got more interest than the old one. I think the tour should expand on that (in kind of a world cup of soccer format), then have a clear 4 months in Europe (2 months slow, 2 months fast) and 3 months in America, rather than hopping all over the place. In the short term, that will also help with quarantine.
With the clear differentiation of regional swings, there should also be clear surface differentiation. Yes, I can dream.
Of course there are things you could pick at, nothing is perfect .. but that's better than what we see now.
Or can I?You can't make a thread like this and not even define "reset".
Or can I?
Perhaps we chuck ideas around and arrive at something by consensus?
Or not.
You posted here, so it's on your mind. What are your ideas?
A real progressive, eh?A "tour reset" could mean a plethora of things.
What others seem to be referring to, from responses, is a complete rehash of organisation and rules. Logistically, a rehash can never work, so it's tomfoolery to even discuss it. A more plausible topic would be to discuss what amendments could be made to the current tour in the form of gradual implementations. Tennis, like any sport, stays afloat via corporate partnerships and stakeholders. Nobody is going to invest in such a reckless concept.
I'd love to see a combined Halle/Queens event where each represents half of the draw and the winners face off in a rotating final on Monday between the two sites. So 600 points for winning either basically and then another 400 points for the grand final. The winners of these events are not going to play the ATP 250s so there we have perhaps the grandest masters 1000 on grass. Probably cut down on byes to maybe 4 per event. Have two Masters 1000 back to back before Wimby or the same week is just not workable.
I see no reason for expansion of grass season until the current expanded season is being maximized. We could be there in a few years if the Majorca takes off.
I think you've made some interesting points, but Halle and Queens need to stand alone. Perhaps the real solution is for the ATP to not award points during a two month grass season on anything but grass. If they were custodians of tennis rather than just in it for short term profit, that's what they'd do. The dirt ballers could still not play on grass, that's fine .. but they won't be vulturing points somewhere else.
Well this is ridiculous sentiment as the clay season has been decimated over the years including the Fall. There are no clay events between RG through Wimbledon. Stuttgart converted to grass in case you hadn't noticed. There are challenger events of course and if you wish to wipe that out well I find your desired level of control disturbing.I think you've made some interesting points, but Halle and Queens need to stand alone. Perhaps the real solution is for the ATP to not award points during a two month grass season on anything but grass. If they were custodians of tennis rather than just in it for short term profit, that's what they'd do. The dirt ballers could still not play on grass, that's fine .. but they won't be vulturing points somewhere else.
Well this is ridiculous sentiment as the clay season has been decimated over the years including the Fall. There are no clay events between RG through Wimbledon. Stuttgart converted to grass in case you hadn't noticed. There are challenger events of course and if you wish to wipe that out well I find your desired level of control disturbing.
Two month grass season. ATP right now is struggling to fill the grass season with quality events. Do you at least have prospective facilities ready to have grass events? I'm not even sure that Halle or Queens have the capacity/fan base worthy of Masters 1000 status on their own.
That is only if the pandemic comes to a definitive end. Because this virus doesn't grant immunity, the tour (and society in general) will have to adapt if it wants to continue in the age of a permanent pandemic situation.Crises like pandemics don't result in rethinks. They usually result in just getting things back running. This is the case here at all levels, not just tennis.
The hard court season is 8 months of the year, clay is 2 months. If anything, we need to cut back on the HC season and give more room for grass and clay (although as some other poasters mentioned, it would make the Channel Slam much easier).The "clay season" is virtually the entire year. It needs a lot more "decimation".
You want business as usual, the thread is about a reset .. so not really for you.
It would make sense for a reset, but only if the tour resumes in 2028.Unprecedented times call for unprecedented action.
I tend to think it'd be beneficial.
Otherwise we'll be left with a patchwork arrangement replete with gaps at every turn (rankings, tournaments, calendar, etc.).
Thoughts?
Let's face it, professional tennis is over with.We can't just reset the tour right now because there are still so many unknowns about the virus - when do infection rates peak, when do they slow down, are they controlled by seasonal changes, etc, etc. Only once we know how to work a regular tour schedule around the patterns of virus transmission and find the safest parts of the year (if there is even such a thing) to hold tournaments, can tennis resume. Until then, at least for the next 5-10 years, we'd just have to do trial and error, cancelling tournaments when infections go up and holding them when it's relatively safer. It won't be a fair system to every player/tournament but the only other option is to suspend all events for the foreseeable future.
Well with clay season moved to the fall this year it does look like it's really expanded. Great moveThe "clay season" is virtually the entire year. It needs a lot more "decimation".
You want business as usual, the thread is about a reset .. so not really for you.
All valid, But tennis in a better position than most other sports.Let's face it, professional tennis is over with.
I knew this from as soon as the whole mess started. This virus isn't going away. Tennis might be reduced to meaningless regional events. World rankings won't mean anything, won't exist. No slams. The Big 3 race has been forever interrupted and will be a source of speculation for years.