The Most Exhausting Opponent to Play Against

ezekiel114

ezekiel114

Semi-Pro
this is why i love tennis. style points means nothing. dude can play.
the question is whether the non-green shirt guy can create a game plan to expose the style of play imposed on him e.g. little pace, change of depth/height/spin of ball.
only watching the first couple of games, i would try to impose closing the net on my terms. executing is a different matter. looks like the green shirt guy is fit so you know its going to be a physical battle as well a mental.
 
R1FF

R1FF

Professional
Justagamefool said:
This looks like a 4.0 match. Orange has no net game, otherwise, he should win this easily.
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I thought he was “winning easily”.

I only watched first 5 minutes.

Green shirt is a pusher hack. That has developed enviable touch. Serve is ugly but if you just look at trajectory it’s not as bad as his mechanics would suggest. Im guessing he’s incredibly consistent with his serve. Is green shirt displaying 4.5 skills? Definitely not. It’s constant moon balls. But he’s consistent enough and showed he has really good aim & touch which is enough to frustrate a lotta people into losing. And he lands just enough perfectly aimed passing shots to almost pressure anyone into thinking they need to get impatient (and implode).

Orange shirt did everything he was supposed to do. Just hitting for depth & TS. Working the points. Got to net. Put away winners that he developed. And most importantly he kept patient.

This was textbook how to beat a pusher.

I’d ignore the 6-4 close first set. The green shirt is hoping his opponent gets internally frustrated that it’s not a bigger blowout & melts down. Thus why i think he was winning easily all things considered. The green shirt wasnt giving up much. Sometimes you just gotta take what’s there.

Im more impressed with the orange shirt. Good video all around.
 
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DeathStrike

Guest
R1FF said:
I thought he was “winning easily”.

Im more impressed with the orange shirt. Good video all around.
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Orange shirt was actually making things easier for green shirt... and still winning :laughing:
 
Dartagnan64

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
R1FF said:
I thought he was “winning easily”.
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He worked his butt off to beat green shirt. There was one rally that lasted over 30 shots. Orange shirt needs to have a game plan for beating guys that continuously give you the short ball. He put some of the floatier ones away but got passed and lobbed far too often on his approaches. He did win the match but it was closer than it should have been since orange shirt was in his own right a very consistent player.

If you'd have watched them hit warm ups you'd have said "double bagel" for orange shirt.

I became a better golfer when I realized precision was more important than power. Green shirt showed that the same thing applies to tennis, especially at rec levels.
 
R1FF

R1FF

Professional
DeathStrike said:
Orange shirt was actually making things easier for green shirt... and still winning :laughing:
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The flip side to that was orange shirt wasnt beating himself.

He could’ve easily overhit attempted winners 2-3 strokes too early in each point instead of patiently working his game.

There’s a lot to be said about playing just 10-15% better than your opponent instead of blowing them off the court. I learned that lesson the hard way yesterday in a match against someone way better than me. First time we played, he played to his level, and I took games I shouldn’t have considering our talent gap. Yesterday? He backed it down to just playing right above my level. The result? 3 straight bagels, and less than a handful of combined DFs and UEs the whole match by him.
 
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R1FF

R1FF

Professional
Dartagnan64 said:
He worked his butt off to beat green shirt. There was one rally that lasted over 30 shots. Orange shirt needs to have a game plan for beating guys that continuously give you the short ball. He put some of the floatier ones away but got passed and lobbed far too often on his approaches. He did win the match but it was closer than it should have been since orange shirt was in his own right a very consistent player.

If you'd have watched them hit warm ups you'd have said "double bagel" for orange shirt.

I became a better golfer when I realized precision was more important than power. Green shirt showed that the same thing applies to tennis, especially at rec levels.
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On the short ball approaches I saw in which I assume you’re saying that orange shirt didnt do enough with, they had no pace and were often low balls. Orange shirt wisely (imo) often sliced these back and continued to net. Basically looking to fully secure the point before going for easier winners.

I dont think there is any rushing this green shirt dude. It’s what he wants.

Also to maybe note, the video is edited. We dont get to see many of the weaker points played. Makes it a tad harder to be overly critical of orange shirt’s tactics. For all we know, the points/games he lost were due to overplaying in certain instances and giving up UEs he could’ve avoided.
 
D

DeathStrike

Guest
R1FF said:
The flip side to that was orange shirt wasnt beating himself.

He could’ve easily overhit attempted winners 2-3 strokes too early in each point instead of patiently working his game.

There’s a lot to be said about playing just 10-15% better than your opponent instead of blowing them off the court. I learned that lesson the hard way yesterday in a match against someone way better than me. First time we played, he played to his level, and I took games I shouldn’t have cobsidering our talent gap. Yesterday? He backedit down to just playing right above my level. The result? 3 straight bagels, and less than a handful of combined DFs and UEs the whole match.
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I understand what your saying but Orange was too good for say the mid court return at 3:10 off a slow serve, I'm all for building points but against someone like the Green Goblin you could have made him way more uncomfortable way earlier on, don't have to be hitting outright winners from the off.
 
D

DeathStrike

Guest
R1FF said:
On the short ball approaches I saw in which I assume you’re saying that orange shirt didnt do enough with, they had no pace and were often low balls.
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This is where I'm big on getting the perfect racquet swingweight that you can swing nice and fast all day long. When you can do that you can really get the RPMs going on slow short balls to get them up and down quick from mid court
 
R1FF

R1FF

Professional
DeathStrike said:
I understand what your saying but Orange was too good for say the mid court return at 3:10 off a slow serve, I'm all for building points but against someone like the Green Goblin you could have made him way more uncomfortable way earlier on, don't have to be hitting outright winners from the off.
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But he was hitting winners from the start. Watch the first 3 points. He’s doing everything that many are critical of him in this thread for not doing. He comes to net & punishes the short balls.

I have to assume that he was giving up games by getting overzealous in his attempted winners.

Yes at 3:10 he could’ve did a lot more with that poor serve. But he also might’ve just been trying his best to be ultra patient. Green Goblin (great nickname) has a formidable resume considering the players he took down.

I gotta credit orange (not) crush for showing his own discipline rather than imploding. Everything about Goblin is annoying and would take someone out of their game in most cases.
 
R1FF

R1FF

Professional
DeathStrike said:
This is where I'm big on getting the perfect racquet swingweight that you can swing nice and fast all day long. When you can do that you can really get the RPMs going on slow short balls to get them up and down quick from mid court
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Even when they’re that low?

On approach, a low ball, trying to rip a heavy ts backhand is pretty low % and I have a decent backhand (and light racquet). I’ve been trained to automatically go for the chip/slice and live to fight another stroke.
 
D

DeathStrike

Guest
R1FF said:
Even when they’re that low?

On approach, a low ball, trying to rip a heavy ts backhand is pretty low % and I have a decent backhand (and light racquet). I’ve been trained to automatically go for the chip/slice and live to fight another stroke.
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I meant ripping that kind of shot more on the FH side but even BH you can really do a lot more IMO, still get it way deeper more pace. 4:20 he actually does it
 
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DeathStrike

Guest
I was thinking you were Greeny hence your earlier defence of his amazing play :laughing:

Mongolmike said:
Let me jump in and say that anyone who calls green shirt a pusher, yhey have no idea what they are talking about. Does he hit hard? No. Does he play smart? Yes. Does he hit lobs? Yes, but imo he is definitely NOT a pusher.
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R1FF

R1FF

Professional
DeathStrike said:
I meant ripping that kind of shot more on the FH side but even BH you can really do a lot more IMO, still get it way deeper more pace. 4:20 he actually does it
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At 4:20 it’s a higher ball. Easier to get on top of it.

I’ll rewatch again but I thought most of his approach shots were off of low balls.

And again, we dont get the luxury of seeing the UEs in this match. Im still under the (limited) impression that Orange shirt is a pretty smart player when it comes to patience. Seeing more of the match would tell us definitively what adjustments he was making off of his own mishaps.
 
Dartagnan64

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
R1FF said:
And again, we dont get the luxury of seeing the UEs in this match. Im still under the (limited) impression that Orange shirt is a pretty smart player when it comes to patience. Seeing more of the match would tell us definitively what adjustments he was making off of his own mishaps.
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Pretty sure the whole match is there to be seen. Basically if you watch the first 2 games you think orange shirt has it in the bag. Then green shirt realizes moonballs won't work and starts hitting low short slices and the game is pretty much a stalemate after that (7-7). Orange never really figures how to take advantage of the short low ball.

EDIT: You are right there are some edited out points so that may have told a different story.
 
FedGR

FedGR

Professional
Tons of lessons just by watching that video. Green shirt guy is definitely extremely well coordinated with very high tennis iq. Makes you wonder how good he could have been if he had started tennis earlier. Orange shirt guy is more traditionally skilled and could have made it even easier for him if he had approached the match a bit differently. You just cannot have green shirt guy type of opponent impose their game.
 
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DeathStrike

Guest
FedGR said:
Tons of lessons just by watching that video. Green shirt guy is definitely extremely well coordinated with very high iq. Makes you wonder how good he could have been if he had started tennis earlier. Orange shirt guy is more traditionally skilled and could have made it even easier for him if he had approached the match a bit differently. You just cannot have green shirt guy type of opponent impose their game.
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It seemed to me at times that orange guy was hitting the ball while rallying with barely more pace than green guy, it was weird watching the rallying for that reason. For me it's really a basic requirement to up the pace and angles against this type of player. @R1FF is right however that the orange guy deserves credit for his mental strength and fitness. He is taking the swings which drains more energy than the blocks and slices. I bet green wears opponents down physically, it's why you need to try and shorten the points get him on the back foot.
 
R1FF

R1FF

Professional
DeathStrike said:
It seemed to me at times that orange guy was hitting the ball while rallying with barely more pace than green guy, it was weird watching the rallying for that reason. For me it's really a basic requirement to up the pace and angles against this type of player. @R1FF is right however that the orange guy deserves credit for his mental strength and fitness. He is taking the swings which drains more energy than the blocks and slices. I bet green wears opponents down physically, it's why you need to try and shorten the points get him on the back foot.
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This is the hidden lesson in the video.

You can see that the orange shirt has good strokes. And at times shows he can hit with more pace/aggression. So many in this thread are asking WHY NOT DO THAT ON MOST STROKES?!?

My current coach would tell you that the best tennis is played when you just play 10-15% better than your opponent. And even if you’re 50% better, you’ll find better results by scaling things back to what you can do with maximum efficiency while still @ a level better than your opponent. A point isnt worth more if it’s hit harder or won earlier.

In the end, this might result in less overall strokes, better energy conservation.

And yes, the Green Goblin is playing the long game. He doesnt look particularly fit or athletic. But I’ll give him max credit for the fact that he plays a style that doesnt expend a lot of energy.

Orange was playing pretty smart. Deep TS to the corner and work the point from there.
 
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S&V-not_dead_yet

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
travlerajm said:
He reminds me of the “I know something you do not know” sword duel scene from the Princess Bride. I think green is much more skilled than he appears at first glance, and can do other things with the ball that he hides until he he needs to use them.
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All that's missing is for him to switch to his right hand and say "I am not left-handed!".
 
D

DeathStrike

Guest
R1FF said:
This is the hidden lesson in the video.

You can see that the orange shirt has good strokes. And at times shows he can hit with more pace/aggression. So many in this thread are asking WHY NOT DO THAT ON MOST STROKES?!?

My current coach would tell you that the best tennis is played when you just play 10-15% better than your opponent. And even if you’re 50% better, you’ll glfind better results be scaling things back to what you can do with maximum efficiency @ a level better than your opponent.

In the end, this might result in less overall strokes, better energy conservation.

And yes, the Green Goblin is playing the long game. He doesnt look particularly fit or athletic. But I’ll give him max credit for the fact that he plays a style that doesnt expend a lot of energy.

Orange was playing pretty smart. Deep TS to the corner and work the point from there.
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That's an interesting take the 15% thing, personally I don't see the point going back and forth with a guy like that - I'd try and put him to the sword but that's because I know I can from my experience beating consistently (and heavily) this kind of player. Once you know what to do it's rinse and repeat, they really can't adjust to it because it means they have to play a game they are not capable of.

I think orange was too cautious but it's understandable
 
R1FF

R1FF

Professional
DeathStrike said:
That's an interesting take the 15% thing, personally I don't see the point going back and forth with a guy like that - I'd try and put him to the sword but that's because I know I can from my experience beating consistently (and heavily) this kind of player. Once you know what to do it's rinse and repeat, they really can't adjust to it because it means they have to play a game they are not capable of.

I think orange was too cautious but it's understandable
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That “type of player” took out top seeds at his level did he not?

He’s hoping his opponent tries to blow him off the court. Or plays pusher ball with him.

His kryptonite is someone doing what orange did. Which Im guessing you would’ve done, just with a bit more efficiency (higher skill allows for better urgency). You might just be asking orange to have done things a little outside his comfort zone. You might be vastly superior and able to exploit control of those points sooner.

But in general, I think you’d probably have to play similar against the Goblin.

Yes the 10-15% thing is very interesting. And depending in how much better you are, changes the score from 6-4 to 6-1. But either way, it’s a winning formula at all levels.
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
Vox Rationis said:
I think the biggest reason he's so good is his passing shot game is excellent. He feels completely comfortable and confident against an opponent at the net. That's such an important asset for him to have since the typical counter to his pushy style is to finish points at the net.
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Exactly. His passing shot strokes are ugly, but they are accurate with no wasted energy. He just punches it to the open space, and he can thread the needle with medium pace flat shots. Most 4.5 guys lack the range at net to beat that.
 
Steady Eddy

Steady Eddy

Legend
travlerajm said:
I think slice gets a bad rap. The dude can place his slice forehand to all 4 corners of the court more accurately than 95% of 4.5 players can with their topspin fh.
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I don't think much of topspin. Topspin makes the ball bounce higher allowing your opponent to hit from their wheelhouse. Why hit shots your opponent likes? What topspin is good for, if you're really skilled, is passing shots.

The green shirt guy has touch. Touch trumps form, IMO.
 
D

DeathStrike

Guest
You know I have to say I have more respect for the Green Goblin as I watch more of this video, it would be interesting to see what a couple of months coaching and hard work could do to his game. If he developed a proper serve to go with the slice and dice it would actually be fascinating to watch him torture people :laughing:
 
D

DeathStrike

Guest
Steady Eddy said:
I don't think much of topspin. Topspin makes the ball bounce higher allowing your opponent to hit from their wheelhouse. Why hit shots your opponent likes? What topspin is good for, if you're really skilled, is passing shots.
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Top spin is critical for consistency while rallying and dipping the ball in on harder hit shots, it really depends on what kind of topspin you're facing, slow and mid court or with good pace pushing you back.
 
D

DeathStrike

Guest
travlerajm said:
Exactly. His passing shot strokes are ugly, but they are accurate with no wasted energy. He just punches it to the open space, and he can thread the needle with medium pace flat shots. Most 4.5 guys lack the range at net to beat that.
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That passing shot down the line reminded me of Jim Courier :laughing:, ugly but effective
 
H

hwtaft

New User
I'm honestly surprised he's able to win as much as he does. He leaves a lot of shots relatively middle of the court.

At 3.5, I could leave a lot of recovery shots in the middle of the court and be fine. It even works against low level 4.0s. However, when I play higher level 4.0s if I leave a shot like that in the middle of the court they'll hit a winner off of it.

Orange shirt probably could have won easier had been a little smarter with his play. But I guess that's why pushing wins because it starts to make you act irrationally. On a lot of those short balls, he would go back across the court giving his opponent the easy passing shot. Against a pusher you need to go down the line and force him to beat you.
 
H

hwtaft

New User
R1FF said:
But he was hitting winners from the start. Watch the first 3 points. He’s doing everything that many are critical of him in this thread for not doing. He comes to net & punishes the short balls.

I have to assume that he was giving up games by getting overzealous in his attempted winners.

Yes at 3:10 he could’ve did a lot more with that poor serve. But he also might’ve just been trying his best to be ultra patient. Green Goblin (great nickname) has a formidable resume considering the players he took down.

I gotta credit orange (not) crush for showing his own discipline rather than imploding. Everything about Goblin is annoying and would take someone out of their game in most cases.
Click to expand...

Agree completely with this. Orange shirt is clearly a high level 4.5 player. He has the tools and showed it early in the match. But once he went down he changed his game to quit giving his opponent free points.

I'm actually impressed at how many shots he was able to hit deep and consistent in the match when it doesn't seem like that's his normal style.
 
C

Conrads

Rookie
I am part of the tennis troll group and let me tell you this guy has some wins over some good 4.5 players here in atlanta. This is real 4.5 USTA league not ultimate. I wouldn't call him
a pusher but a very crafter counterpuncher. Orange shirt guy is an ex d1 player who i have played many times. His spin can just wear you down but he could exhausted i can tell
playing this guy.
 
shamaho

shamaho

Professional
Mongolmike said:
Let me jump in and say that anyone who calls green shirt a pusher, yhey have no idea what they are talking about. Does he hit hard? No. Does he play smart? Yes. Does he hit lobs? Yes, but imo he is definitely NOT a pusher.
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You're right, he's a deadly combo: smart & athletic junkballer pusher ! ;-)

My only pain with this is... he has all the conditions to become that stellar player... being smart & athletic, but he seems stuck in this comfortable junkballing pushing game because he's gettings results... he does not seem to want to venture into less comfortable and harder path to become the player he CAN BE !
 
Steady Eddy

Steady Eddy

Legend
DeathStrike said:
Top spin is critical for consistency while rallying and dipping the ball in on harder hit shots, it really depends on what kind of topspin you're facing, slow and mid court or with good pace pushing you back.
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There are trade-offs, though. The more spin, the less speed, so some of the racquet head speed you generate is lost through the spin. Also, to get topspin you must swing low-to-high, the steeper your swing the more difficult to avoid a mis-hit. So is it worth the trade-offs? Depends on the player. It takes a lot of energy to give it topspin and still have pace. I think it can work out for young, fit players. Older players might prefer hitting flat, with occasional side-spin to disrupt opponents rythm.
 
T

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
Steady Eddy said:
So if slice is the easier shot, I wonder why topspin is pushed so much? Isn't tennis hard enough as it is?
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Because the pros like to use it.

The thing about topspin is that it has some good uses. It helps if you want to rip the ball hard, it helps if you want to roll a short angle, it helps for hitting passing shots and dippers, and it helps for making moonballs bounce higher and more vertically.

The problem is that 90% of the time, rec players are using topspin for slow-to-medium paced rally balls a few feet above the net. With these types of shots, a flat shot or a slice shot is actually superior tactically, and the topspin just makes life easier for your opponent. The topspin slows it down and makes it take longer to get there, so your opponent has more time to set up. And the higher bounce makes it easier for your opponent to attack.
 
jhick

jhick

Hall of Fame
DeathStrike said:
Top spin is critical for consistency while rallying and dipping the ball in on harder hit shots, it really depends on what kind of topspin you're facing, slow and mid court or with good pace pushing you back.
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QFT. Normally I prefer playing guys with topspin over flat hitters, as it gives me more time to track down shots. However, at higher levels, if I run into a guy with heavy topspin who can hit deep in the court and with speed pushing me off the court, that is a totally different animal. Puts me on the defensive right away.
 
Steady Eddy

Steady Eddy

Legend
travlerajm said:
Because the pros like to use it.

The thing about topspin is that it has some good uses. It helps if you want to rip the ball hard, it helps if you want to roll a short angle, it helps for hitting passing shots and dippers, and it helps for making moonballs bounce higher and more vertically.

The problem is that 90% of the time, rec players are using topspin for slow-to-medium paced rally balls a few feet above the net. With these types of shots, a flat shot or a slice shot is actually superior tactically, and the topspin just makes life easier for your opponent. The topspin slows it down and makes it take longer to get there, so your opponent has more time to set up. And the higher bounce makes it easier for your opponent to attack.
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jhick said:
QFT. Normally I prefer playing guys with topspin over flat hitters, as it gives me more time to track down shots. However, at higher levels, if I run into a guy with heavy topspin who can hit deep in the court and with speed pushing me off the court, that is a totally different animal. Puts me on the defensive right away.
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Hated playing 'hackers' because they hit underspin, and sidespin and I couldn't tee off on their shots. Others explained to me that's why it's easier to play well against good players, but you'll play poorly against 'bad' players. That seemed backwards. Shouldn't the point be to hit shots your opponent doesn't like?

In tennis I'll hear someone say he lost, but only because his opponent didn't play "right". That's so odd. I wonder if that happens in any other sport?
 
shamaho

shamaho

Professional
Steady Eddy said:
So if slice is the easier shot, I wonder why topspin is pushed so much? Isn't tennis hard enough as it is?
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topsping being used so much or rather the fall from use of the slice on fh (as an attacking shot) is a feature of the modern games... topspin it's a more aggressive shot and not so much people approaching the net.

In the old days, many many times one would approach the net with either a flat shot or with a slight slice on the FH, and a more pronounced slice on the BH.
 
D

DeathStrike

Guest
shamaho said:
You're right, he's a deadly combo: smart & athletic junkballer pusher ! ;-)

My only pain with this is... he has all the conditions to become that stellar player... being smart & athletic, but he seems stuck in this comfortable junkballing pushing game because he's gettings results... he does not seem to want to venture into less comfortable and harder path to become the player he CAN BE !
Click to expand...

Yes he will plateau but maybe he's happy where he is beating guys who 'look' like he'd have no chance against. Nothing really wrong with that

Steady Eddy said:
So if slice is the easier shot, I wonder why topspin is pushed so much? Isn't tennis hard enough as it is?
Click to expand...

This is a fair point, depending upon the level you're at you could forehand slice a lot more?

travlerajm said:
Because the pros like to use it.

The thing about topspin is that it has some good uses. It helps if you want to rip the ball hard, it helps if you want to roll a short angle, it helps for hitting passing shots and dippers, and it helps for making moonballs bounce higher and more vertically.

The problem is that 90% of the time, rec players are using topspin for slow-to-medium paced rally balls a few feet above the net. With these types of shots, a flat shot or a slice shot is actually superior tactically, and the topspin just makes life easier for your opponent. The topspin slows it down and makes it take longer to get there, so your opponent has more time to set up. And the higher bounce makes it easier for your opponent to attack.
Click to expand...

Exactly it's the quality of topsin this video shows what you should really be aiming for topspin wise check the guy in black

 
D

DeathStrike

Guest
shamaho said:
topsping being used so much or rather the fall from use of the slice on fh (as an attacking shot) is a feature of the modern games... topspin it's a more aggressive shot and not so much people approaching the net.

In the old days, many many times one would approach the net with either a flat shot or with a slight slice on the FH, and a more pronounced slice on the BH.
Click to expand...

Maybe the slower courts and better racquets killed off this kind of game when coming into the net behind a slice
 
jhick

jhick

Hall of Fame
Steady Eddy said:
Hated playing 'hackers' because they hit underspin, and sidespin and I couldn't tee off on their shots. Others explained to me that's why it's easier to play well against good players, but you'll play poorly against 'bad' players. That seemed backwards. Shouldn't the point be to hit shots your opponent doesn't like?

In tennis I'll hear someone say he lost, but only because his opponent didn't play "right". That's so odd. I wonder if that happens in any other sport?
Click to expand...
I generally prefer the hackers, though it is rare to find them at the 4.5 level, and if you do, they are at that level because they have mastered it. Otherwise they wouldn't be at that level. I believe the main reason people don't like playing this style of opponent is because it requires a strong mental game combined with patience and endurance. And even though I prefer this style, it can still be quite frustrating to play against.
 
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