If Roddick/Hewitt couldn't beat prime Federer at AO/Wimbledon/USO, then why couldn't Murray?

mike danny · Dec 19, 2020

RS said:
I actually see it that way. Fed is the greater player overall on grass so not biggie.

Saying with absolute certainty Nadal would have won when he wasn't that hampered to begin with and Fed played a marvelous 5th set anyway? It wasn't Nadal donating it to him, it was Fed taking it from him with his own play. Nadal had multiple BPs at 1-1 and 2-2 in the 5th. Who knows how the match would have gone if he had broken serve?

At the same time, not acknowledging that Fed played a terrible 5th set at AO 2009, worse than Nadal at Wimb 2007?

Yeah, exactly what a bad Nadal troll would say. Don't be one of them.

alexio · Dec 19, 2020

AnOctorokForDinner said:
Nadal spent more time on court prior to 2010 USO SF than 2019 AO SF.

разные турниры, не считается

плюс у надаля был жуткий исполин, перед которым можно было б обосраться от страха, что он и сделал, в случае с фед такого исполина не было, а если серьезно, то тот пост (и этот) был ради смеха

abmk · Dec 19, 2020

RS said:
Fed was worse in 08 compared to 04-07 overall and was slowed by mono but on grass he was at his best his stats and the Nadal match say it all. Fed served bad for his standard in AO but Nadal played a long 5 setter with a day less rest.

He did not have a bandage on his leg before he put it on in the leading in the 4th. He did hold 4 more times but 2 were in the 4th when leading and Fed was looking subsided and he ended shaky in the last game as well.

He was still threat but a step worse.

1. Fed wasn't at his best in Wim 08, though he was playing pretty well.

2. Nadal playing that semi vs Verdasco has literally nothing to do with federer's back issues and serving. Nadal played as good in the final as he did in the semi, arguably better (IMO, a tad better. Nadal was cleaner in the semi, but gave clearly more chances for Verdasco to tee off)
Also Djokovic played a long 5-setter vs Murray in AO 12 and beat Nadal with 1 day less rest. But I see far less mention of that than Nadal in AO 09.

3. Nadal had knee taping on both legs in RG 2008 final. Doesn't even mean much.

4. Like I said, Nadal held 4 more times convincingly (no BPs faced). Federer faced 2 BPs each in 2 seperate games. a step slower Nadal was able to do better with a fresh start in the 5th, really?
And of course you are not going to talk about Hawkeye screwing federer and helping Nadal get that 2nd break in the 4th set, are you?

Reality: Nadal was just fine. Federer just raised his level after holding at 2 all.

mike danny · Dec 19, 2020

RS said:
Fed was worse in 08 compared to 04-07 overall and was slowed by mono but on grass he was at his best his stats and the Nadal match say it all. Fed served bad for his standard in AO but Nadal played a long 5 setter with a day less rest.

Who cares when Fed was the one who capitulated in the end? And Fed was great, but not fully at his best. His capitulation in the 2nd was terrible.

RS said:
He did not have a bandage on his leg before he put it on in the leading in the 4th. He did hold 4 more times but 2 were in the 4th when leading and Fed was looking subsided and he ended shaky in the last game as well.

He was still threat but a step worse.

He also had bandages on both knees in the 2008 final and had a fall mid match too. Of course, Nadal won, so no peep about this.

mike danny · Dec 19, 2020

abmk said:
1. Fed wasn't at his best in Wim 08, though he was playing pretty well.

2. Nadal playing that semi vs Verdasco has literally nothing to do with federer's back issues and serving. Nadal played as good in the final as he did in the semi, arguably better (IMO, a tad better. Nadal was cleaner in the semi, but gave clearly more chances for Verdasco to tee off)
Also Djokovic played a long 5-setter vs Murray in AO 12 and beat Nadal with 1 day less rest. But I see far less mention of that than Nadal in AO 09.

3. Nadal had knee taping on both legs in RG 2008 final. Doesn't even mean much.

4. Like I said, Nadal held 4 more times convincingly (no BPs faced). Federer faced 2 BPs each in 2 seperate games. a step slower Nadal was able to do better with a fresh start in the 5th, really?
And of course you are not going to talk about Hawkeye screwing federer and helping Nadal get that 2nd break in the 4th set, are you?

Reality: Nadal was just fine. Federer just raised his level after holding at 2 all.

Even if he was slightly hampered, it didn't show until mid way through the 5th, probably after Fed had broken him.

BackhandDTL · Dec 19, 2020

mike danny said:
Who cares when Fed was the one who capitulated in the end? And Fed was great, but not fully at his best. His capitulation in the 2nd was terrible.

He also had bandages on both knees in the 2008 final and had a fall mid match too. Of course, Nadal won, so no peep about this.

Nadal was indeed hampered in 08. Would have won in straights if he was not.

Nadal was in even worse physical shape that final set of W 2007

RS · Dec 19, 2020

abmk said:
1. Fed wasn't at his best in Wim 08, though he was playing pretty well.

2. Nadal playing that semi vs Verdasco has literally nothing to do with federer's back issues and serving. Nadal played as good in the final as he did in the semi, arguably better (IMO, a tad better. Nadal was cleaner in the semi, but gave clearly more chances for Verdasco to tee off)
Also Djokovic played a long 5-setter vs Murray in AO 12 and beat Nadal with 1 day less rest. But I see far less mention of that than Nadal in AO 09.

3. Nadal had knee taping on both legs in RG 2008 final. Doesn't even mean much.

4. Like I said, Nadal held 4 more times convincingly (no BPs faced). Federer faced 2 BPs each in 2 seperate games. a step slower Nadal was able to do better with a fresh start in the 5th, really?
And of course you are not going to talk about Hawkeye screwing federer and helping Nadal get that 2nd break in the 4th set, are you?

Reality: Nadal was just fine. Federer just raised his level after holding at 2 all.

Disagree

Nadal put his bandage more mid way through the match when he never had it on before unlike other times. I felt the F was a small notch below the SF for both players. Fed of 08 beats all other 03-07 oppenents in the same as he did back then on grass. I do not buy back issues for Federer with no proof in that match and he never said anything about it in that match.

True about Djokovic but this is about Federer. Federer was losing that 2nd set anyway.

RS · Dec 19, 2020

mike danny said:
Saying with absolute certainty Nadal would have won when he wasn't that hampered to begin with and Fed played a marvelous 5th set anyway? It wasn't Nadal donating it to him, it was Fed taking it from him with his own play. Nadal had multiple BPs at 1-1 and 2-2 in the 5th. Who knows how the match would have gone if he had broken serve?

At the same time, not acknowledging that Fed played a terrible 5th set at AO 2009, worse than Nadal at Wimb 2007?

Yeah, exactly what a bad Nadal troll would say. Don't be one of them.

mike danny said:
Who cares when Fed was the one who capitulated in the end? And Fed was great, but not fully at his best. His capitulation in the 2nd was terrible.

He also had bandages on both knees in the 2008 final and had a fall mid match too. Of course, Nadal won, so no peep about this.

Still talking the trolling serious i see

mike danny · Dec 19, 2020

RS said:
Still talking the trolling serious i see

Well, if you're trolling, well played. But hard to really know sometimes.

abmk · Dec 19, 2020

RS said:
Disagree

Nadal put his bandage more mid way through the match when he never had it on before unlike other times. I felt the F was a small notch below the SF for both players. Fed of 08 beats all other 03-07 oppenents in the same as he did back then on grass. I do not buy back issues for Federer with no proof in that match and he never said anything about it in that match.

True about Djokovic but this is about Federer. Federer was losing that 2nd set anyway.

If he's put it on for the whole match, that's probably worse than midway through it, no?
It doesn't really have to do with any injuries. Just a precaution.

Federer had back issues from late 2008 till Rome 2009. Serving stats were clearly below par for him in that period. I could easily say that's what was the problem with his serving in AO 09 final.
I could argue Fed didn't say anything, because he'd be looked upon as a very very sore loser.

You mean the 4th set in Wim 2007 final, not the 2nd set right?
Yeah, Nadal might have won that set anyway. But it'd be a one break difference, not 2. That makes a difference.

RS · Dec 19, 2020

mike danny said:
Well, if you're trolling, well played. But hard to really know sometimes.

Did make my MO clear though.

ibbi · Dec 19, 2020

Because Judy Murray was a selfish woman who chose to go to university and try for her own tennis career rather than just popping out kids from the get go.

RS · Dec 19, 2020

abmk said:
If he's put it on for the whole match, that's probably worse than midway through it, no?
It doesn't really have to do with any injuries. Just a precaution.

Federer had back issues from late 2008 till Rome 2009. Serving stats were clearly below par for him in that period. I could easily say that's what was the problem with his serving in AO 09 final.
I could argue Fed didn't say anything, because he'd be looked upon as a very very sore loser.

You mean the 4th set in Wim 2007 final, not the 2nd set right?
Yeah, Nadal might have won that set anyway. But it'd be a one break difference, not 2. That makes a difference.

Nadal had something in Rome 2008 so maybe that is why he put in on in RG 08. Still strange he would just put it on after falling.

Just saw the Wim 07 moment now he was speaking to a physio who was speaking to him and Spainsh and feeling his knee before strapping it after falling down in the 5th game of 4th set.

I was doing my usual trolling i said on another thread Fed was too good anyway in the last set when other Rafa fans were mentioning it

abmk · Dec 19, 2020

RS said:
Nadal had something in Rome 2008 so maybe that is why he put in on in RG 08. Still strange he would just put it on after falling.

Just saw the Wim 07 moment now he was speaking to a physio who was speaking to him and Spainsh and feeling his knee before strapping it after falling down in the 5th game of 4th set.

I was doing my usual trolling i said on another thread Fed was too good anyway in the last set when other Rafa fans were mentioning it

Yes, I had seen that. I thought you might be trolling here, so I used Wim 08 (mono) and AO 09(back pain).

It was a foot injury in Rome 2008 - blisters. I don't think that's linked to tape on the knees.

Nadal was bothered by a blister on his right foot, calling for the trainer late in the second set. The blister started bothering the second-ranked Spaniard after he won the Barcelona Open on Sunday.

Nadal loses to Ferrero in Rome (Published 2008)

www.nytimes.com

Nadal also had tape on both knees in AO 2009 semi vs Verdasco from the start.

It doesn't really mean much.

The Guru · Dec 19, 2020

mike danny said:
He was still a bit better in 2009.

- Lost in 5 to Nadal instead of 4.

- Lost in straights to Djokovic at RG. Don't think it happens to 2009 Fed who raised his level after the Haas match.

- Wimb was great. Although I'd still say 2009 Roddick played better than anyone he faced in 2012. But that's more debatable, at least.

- At the USO he lost in 4 to Berdych, instead of at least 5. Plus, he at least beat an in form Soderling and Djokovic in 2009, while in 2012 he lost to the first big threat he encountered. So, not the same.

It's small things like this that tilt it in favor of 2009 quite comfortably.

Outside the slams, 2012 was slightly better than 2009, but as far as the slams are concerned, 2009 > 2012.

- Can be explained by court slowing significantly in 2012. DR is similar anyhow.

- Maybe not straights but he loses comfortably. His level barely cut it vs Del Po. FO 09 was him just scraping by. Mental pressure might be part of that to be fair.

Obviously the USO level gap is pretty big from 12 to 09 tho

abmk · Dec 19, 2020

The Guru said:
- Can be explained by court slowing significantly in 2012. DR is similar anyhow.

DR in AO 2009 final: Federer's DR = 1.011
DR in AO 2012 semi: Federer's DR = 0.863

How on earth is that similar?

The Guru said:
- Maybe not straights but he loses comfortably. His level barely cut it vs Del Po. FO 09 was him just scraping by. Mental pressure might be part of that to be fair.

LOL wut? Delpo of RG 09 would've beaten Djokovic of RG 12 in 4 sets as would federer of RG 09 (QF-F)
Delpo was GOATing in that match just like Stan of RG 15 final.
Federer beat Monfils in an excellent match in RG 09 QF and GOATed in the final vs Soderling. Played well enough to stave off a GOATing delpo.
But Djoko fanboys keep talking like RG 09 was bad from fed. Only 2 matches were below par - Haas&Acusaso. Its even more delusional stuff when talking about RG 12 djokovic - who was down 2 sets to love vs Seppi and had to save 4 MPs vs Tsonga.
Djokovic got broken 4 times by a pretty mediocre federer in RG 12 semi, LOL.

The Guru · Dec 19, 2020

abmk said:
DR in AO 2009 final: Federer's DR = 1.011
DR in AO 2012 semi: Federer's DR = 0.863

How on earth is that similar?

LOL wut? Djoko of RG 09 would've beaten Djokovic of RG 12 in 4 sets as would federer of RG 09 (QF-F)
Delpo was GOATing in that match just like Stan of RG 15 final.
Federer beat Monfils in an excellent match in RG 09 QF and GOATed in the final vs Soderling. Played well enough to stave off a GOATing delpo.
But Djoko fanboys keep talking like RG 09 was bad from fed. Only 2 matches were below par - Haas&Acusaso. Its even more delusional stuff when talking about RG 12 djokovic - who was down 2 sets to love vs Seppi and had to save 4 MPs vs Tsonga.
Djokovic got broken 4 times by a pretty mediocre federer in RG 12 semi, LOL.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

. Oh man. Lmao. Ur a funny guy.

abmk · Dec 19, 2020

The Guru said:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. . Oh man. Lmao. Ur a funny guy.

I meant to type delpo of RG 09, as would be obvious from the next line if you didn't have your head stuck in the Djoko fanatic, fed-hating sand.

Also not surprised to see SHAMELESS YOU not even admitting you were wrong about the DR.
Obviously can't address the actual argument about RG 09/RG 12 either.

RS · Dec 20, 2020

abmk said:
Yes, I had seen that. I thought you might be trolling here, so I used Wim 08 (mono) and AO 09(back pain).

It was a foot injury in Rome 2008 - blisters. I don't think that's linked to tape on the knees.

Nadal was bothered by a blister on his right foot, calling for the trainer late in the second set. The blister started bothering the second-ranked Spaniard after he won the Barcelona Open on Sunday.

Nadal loses to Ferrero in Rome (Published 2008)

www.nytimes.com

Nadal also had tape on both knees in AO 2009 semi vs Verdasco from the start.

It doesn't really mean much.

Fine i thought his issue before RG 08 was a foot issue. So he had the same issue at the start of clay as well.

Well i still think him putting in on after falling is telling but as i said no really giving the win to Rafa anyways as Fed was too good in that last set. I thought you might have missed the thread i said it but good that you saw it.

Need to rewatch the Nadal - Dasco sometime next week that reminds me. 2007-2009 was such fun times

zagor · Dec 20, 2020

Red Rick said:
Total aces/match isn't that great cause it's inflated by playing longer matches, and Roddick only had 1 straight set win, the huge 5th set vs Federer, etc. The huge ace% were in QF and earlier, and in fact he got outaced hard by Federer and even got outaced by Murray, who had his worst serving performance of the tournament.

Roddick usually got outaced against Fed didn't he? And back then Murray actually had a big 1st serve to go with the GOAT ROS. To me Roddick always seemed to rely more on pace/spin than placement (compared to other great servers he got less aces) so him hitting so many aces would mean he was serving really well.

So what would you use as a gauge then? I don't know where I can check service winners.

mike danny · Dec 20, 2020

The Guru said:
- Can be explained by court slowing significantly in 2012. DR is similar anyhow.

- Maybe not straights but he loses comfortably. His level barely cut it vs Del Po. FO 09 was him just scraping by. Mental pressure might be part of that to be fair.

Obviously the USO level gap is pretty big from 12 to 09 tho

I don't think he loses comfortably. 2012 Djokovic wasn't that good at the FO. He had his own close scares against Seppi (weaker player than Haas) and Tsonga (weaker player than Delpo).

Red Rick · Dec 20, 2020

zagor said:
Roddick usually got outaced against Fed didn't he? And back then Murray actually had a big 1st serve to go with the GOAT ROS. To me Roddick always seemed to rely more on pace/spin than placement (compared to other great servers he got less aces) so him hitting so many aces would mean he was serving really well.

So what would you use as a gauge then? I don't know where I can check service winners.

Roddick served 11% aces vs Federer which is above average, but nothing special, even vs Federer. He's had way higher numbers on HC vs Federer.Murray's served that ace% vs Fed at Wimbledon. In that tournament, Soderling hit 16% aces, Karlovic was higher ofcourse. Tommy Haas hit 10% aces vs Fed. 1st% points won was 82% for Roddick, which was very far below Soderling, who actually had a way better DR than Roddick despite losing in straights. Roddick's% was average for him. 1st serve return, 2nd serve return, 2nd serve% points won were all equally bad for Roddick.

Was it good? Yes. But it wasn't otherworldly. The real miracle was Fed winning that many return points and getting less than 1 BP per 5 games.

mike danny · Dec 20, 2020

The Guru said:
Murray wiped the floor with Fed on CC in Bo5 in a year when Fed won Wimbledon so it's not impossible. Murray never got to face a Federer as poor as 2009 W F Federer so who knows how he'd fare. Of course Murray can only win if Fed is off and Murray is at his best. Murray is not as good as Fed lol glad we established that.

Clearly not all Big 3 member is created equal Nadal>Djokovic>Federer

I have already given Murray his dues by saying he'd beat Fed at AO 2006 and AO 2008 is he is playing at AO 2012 and AO 2013 levels.

Deleted member 748597 · Dec 20, 2020

AO 2006 had some epic players.

Red Rick · Dec 20, 2020

mike danny said:
I have already given Murray his dues by saying he'd beat Fed at AO 2006 and AO 2008 is he is playing at AO 2012 and AO 2013 levels.

Baghdatis and his dumb quotes.

Idiot should've just decided to be 15 years younger instead.

I am dead serious that players of his type have died out at the top of the game due to poly, slower courts and baseline games being much more refined now.

NoleFam · Dec 20, 2020

mike danny said:
I don't think he loses comfortably. 2012 Djokovic wasn't that good at the FO. He had his own close scares against Seppi (weaker player than Haas) and Tsonga (weaker player than Delpo).

2012 Djokovic wasn't that good at RG? What tournament were you guys watching exactly? Besides the Seppi match, he was darn good. That was no different than Federer struggling against guys like Haas and Acasuso in 2009. It took a goating Nadal to stop him and even then he had Nadal on the ropes before rain stopped play. Tsonga played the match of his life on clay that day. Explosive brutal hitting match and explosive movement from both, with Tsonga coming into the net often off aggressive approach shots and kept Djokovic on his heels for 3 sets. Djokovic himself was very aggressive all match and played really well and Tsonga had him 4 match points down so that shows how well Tsonga played.

mike danny · Dec 20, 2020

NoleFam said:
2012 Djokovic wasn't that good at RG? What tournament were you guys watching exactly? Besides the Seppi match, he was darn good. That was no different than Federer struggling against guys like Haas and Acasuso in 2009. It took a goating Nadal to stop him and even then he had Nadal on the ropes before rain stopped play. Tsonga played the match of his life on clay that day. Explosive brutal hitting match and explosive movement from both, with Tsonga coming into the net often off aggressive approach shots and kept Djokovic on his heels for 3 sets. Djokovic himself was very aggressive all match and played really well and Tsonga had him 4 match points down so that shows how well Tsonga played.

I was just arguing that it's silly to say 2009 Fed loses to 2012 Djokovic comfortably when even 2012 Djoko had his struggles. He raised his level after the Seppi match the same way Fed raised his level after the Haas match.

Did you see the post I was responding to?

NoleFam · Dec 20, 2020

mike danny said:
I was just arguing that it's silly to say 2009 Fed loses to 2012 Djokovic comfortably when even 2012 Djoko had his struggles. He raised his level after the Seppi match the same way Fed raised his level after the Haas match.

Did you see the post I was responding to?

Oh I see. I wasn't really following the convo. Still, you are downplaying Djokovic at 2012 RG by saying he wasn't that good. It was one of his best RG tournaments imo.

abmk · Dec 20, 2020

NoleFam said:
2012 Djokovic wasn't that good at RG? What tournament were you guys watching exactly? Besides the Seppi match, he was darn good. That was no different than Federer struggling against guys like Haas and Acasuso in 2009. It took a goating Nadal to stop him and even then he had Nadal on the ropes before rain stopped play. Tsonga played the match of his life on clay that day. Explosive brutal hitting match and explosive movement from both, with Tsonga coming into the net often off aggressive approach shots and kept Djokovic on his heels for 3 sets. Djokovic himself was very aggressive all match and played really well and Tsonga had him 4 match points down so that shows how well Tsonga played.

Djokovic of RG 12 was lesser than fed of RG 09 - that much is obvious.
He was down 2 sets to love vs Seppi.
Tsonga only played well for about 2.5 sets and that was enough to get MPs vs Djokovic who got subdued by Tsonga's play.

Djokovic of RG 12 semi got broken 4 times by a below par Federer. Clearly below Federer of RG 09 semi who survived that assault from a GOATing delpo.

Only when conditions were wet and not taking spin, Djokovic had the edge vs Nadal, else Nadal was comfortably better.

Federer OTOH played an excellent match vs Monfils and GOATed vs Soderling.

The Haas and Acusaso matches correspond to Djokovic's Seppi&Tsonga matches. But Djokovic didn't get the highs that Federer did in RG 09 for a full match in RG 12 later stages (only that stretch vs Nadal in wet and not taking spin conditions - which was great)

abmk · Dec 20, 2020

NoleFam said:
Oh I see. I wasn't really following the convo. Still, you are downplaying Djokovic at 2012 RG by saying he wasn't that good. It was one of his best RG tournaments imo.

RG 08, RG 11, RG 13, RG 14, RG 15, RG 16 all better than RG 12. So how is it one of his best RG tournaments?

NoleFam · Dec 20, 2020

abmk said:
RG 08, RG 11, RG 13, RG 14, RG 15, RG 16 all better than RG 12. So how is it one of his best RG tournaments?

This is completely incorrect.

abmk · Dec 20, 2020

NoleFam said:
This is completely incorrect.

I'm talking about the tournaments as a whole, not necessarily his final match in each of those tournaments.
How is RG 12 better than any of those when he was down 2 sets to love vs seppi and had to stave for 4 MPs vs Tsonga who played well for about 2.5 sets (2nd half of 2nd set to end of 4th set)?

RS · Dec 20, 2020

Djokovic on clay in 08-09 was so underated.

NoleFam · Dec 20, 2020

abmk said:
Djokovic of RG 12 was lesser than fed of RG 09 - that much is obvious.
He was down 2 sets to love vs Seppi.
Tsonga only played well for about 2.5 sets and that was enough to get MPs vs Djokovic who got subdued by Tsonga's play.

Djokovic of RG 12 semi got broken 4 times by a below par Federer. Clearly below Federer of RG 09 semi who survived that assault from a GOATing delpo.

Only when conditions were wet and not taking spin, Djokovic had the edge vs Nadal, else Nadal was comfortably better.

I don't care about whether Djokovic at RG 12 is lesser than RG 09 Federer because it can't be proven with anything. Unless they actually play, it doesn't matter. You either didn't watch the Tsonga match or you should the conversation alone.

abmk · Dec 20, 2020

NoleFam said:
I don't care about whether Djokovic at RG 12 is lesser than RG 09 Federer because it can't be proven with anything. Unless they actually play, it doesn't matter. You either didn't watch the Tsonga match or you should the conversation alone.

There's nothing wrong in what I wrote.

I was watching the Djokovic-Tsonga match live and commenting on it. Tsonga managed to subdue Djokovic quite a bit from 2nd half of 2nd set till end of 4th set. Djokovic did great to save those MPs.

One post from the match thread:

abmk said:
and amazingly tsonga has 2 SPs ..... who would have thought given the way djoker was playing in the first set and half and how tsonga was playing then ?

Rest of them you can see here:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?search/2286639/

NoleFam · Dec 20, 2020

abmk said:
There's nothing wrong in what I wrote.

I was watching the Djokovic-Tsonga match live and commenting on it. Tsonga managed to subdue Djokovic quite a bit from 2nd half of 2nd set till end of 4th set. Djokovic did great to save those MPs.

One post from the match thread:

Rest of them you can see here:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?search/2286639/

Tsonga would have beaten everybody else in the tournament that day except Nadal. That's all. That was a brutal match that you are downplaying. Djokovic was a monster on those match points and when his back was against the wall, and that took some serious cajones.

mike danny · Dec 20, 2020

NoleFam said:
Oh I see. I wasn't really following the convo. Still, you are downplaying Djokovic at 2012 RG by saying he wasn't that good. It was one of his best RG tournaments imo.

He was also downplaying Fed's form at 2009 RG a lot.

My post was just a response to that.

NoleFam · Dec 20, 2020

mike danny said:
He was also downplaying Fed's form at 2009 RG a lot.

My post was just a response to that.

Ok fair enough.

InsideOut900 · Dec 20, 2020

abmk said:
RG 08, RG 11, RG 13, RG 14, RG 15, RG 16 all better than RG 12. So how is it one of his best RG tournaments?

Only 2011, 2016 are distinctively better by level. Also 2013 for the fighting spirit displayed against Nadal in the SF.
The rest are in the same ballpark.

He lost a set to Gulbis in 2014 and was struggling a bit in the final. 2008 draw was easy before the semi.
2015 only better in the 4R and QF (granted both were really good performances). I would still take 2012 over 2014 and 2008 personally.

Also about the Tsonga part, saying he played well for 2.5 sets it's almost like saying he beat Federer in Wimbledon 2011 because he played well for 3 sets.

It's all it takes to claim the win.

In between playing well in sets 1 and 5, while surviving the onslaught in the middle sets, 2012 QF wasn't the worst.

mike danny · Dec 20, 2020

RS said:
Djokovic on clay in 08-09 was so underated.

If Nadal hadn't been upset in 2009 at RG, the Djokovic loss would have been the most shocking one easily.

RS · Dec 20, 2020

mike danny said:
If Nadal hadn't been upset in 2009 at RG, the Djokovic loss would have been the most shocking one easily.

Probably yeah and RG was his downfall in 09 on clay. The rivalry with Nadal in 08-09 on clay was excellent.

mike danny · Dec 20, 2020

RS said:
Probably yeah and RG was his downfall in 09 on clay. The rivalry with Nadal in 08-09 on clay was excellent.

Djoko's 2009 would have looked a lot better if he had reached the RG semis. Almost a prime year on HC and clay if that had happened.

RS · Dec 20, 2020

mike danny said:
Djoko's 2009 would have looked a lot better if he had reached the RG semis. Almost a prime year on HC and clay if that had happened.

Not sure about HC for 09 but agree on clay. You could make a case 2008 was a prime year for Djokovic on clay and HC though.

RS · Dec 20, 2020

Red Rick said:
I'm confused guys.

Continue

Discuss or disgust

My last thread similar to this got comment blocked. Have no idea why the mods let your one stay

abmk · Dec 20, 2020

NoleFam said:
Tsonga would have beaten everybody else in the tournament that day except Nadal. That's all. That was a brutal match that you are downplaying.

Ferrer might have beaten him if he he played like in the 1R to QF and not the semi. Remember ferrer did beat him in RG 13 in the semi after Tsonga had beaten fed in thw QF in straight sets (&not lost any set on the way). How many others were playing that well in RG 12 anyways? Not fed. delpo had his issues after going up 2 sets to love vs Fed.

NoleFam said:
Djokovic was a monster on those match points and when his back was against the wall, and that took some serious cajones.

I already said that. Djokovic was phenomenal on those MPs.

NoleFam · Dec 20, 2020

InsideOut900 said:
Only 2011, 2016 are distinctively better by level. Also 2013 for the fighting spirit displayed against Nadal in the SF.
The rest are in the same ballpark.

He lost a set to Gulbis in 2014 and was struggling a bit in the final. 2008 draw was easy before the semi.
2015 only better in the 4R and QF (granted both were really good performances). I would still take 2012 over 2014 and 2008 personally.

Also about the Tsonga part, saying he played well for 2.5 sets it's almost like saying he beat Federer in Wimbledon 2011 because he played well for 3 sets.
It's all it takes to claim the win.

In between playing well in sets 1 and 5, while surviving the onslaught in the middle sets, 2012 QF wasn't the worst.

I would say only 2013 and 2016 are flat out better. I think he reached a slightly higher celing in both years. In 2011, he really wasn't pushed that much with a retirement and w/o until the Federer match. Then he took his level way up but was his ceiling higher there than 2012? Not so sure about that. He crushed Federer in the SF in 2012 in windy conditions whether he was at his best or not, and the way he played against Nadal in that final for a set and half was really something else, as well holding off Tsonga playing at that level. I agree about 2015 in 4R and QF. Extremely high level there, and probably better than 2012's celing, but he couldn't maintain it for more than 2 matches.

RS · Dec 20, 2020

Federer RG 07 vs Djokovic RG 13 who wins ?

abmk · Dec 20, 2020

InsideOut900 said:
Only 2011, 2016 are distinctively better by level. Also 2013 for the fighting spirit displayed against Nadal in the SF.
The rest are in the same ballpark.

He lost a set to Gulbis in 2014 and was struggling a bit in the final. 2008 draw was easy before the semi.
2015 only better in the 4R and QF (granted both were really good performances). I would still take 2012 over 2014 and 2008 personally.

Also about the Tsonga part, saying he played well for 2.5 sets it's almost like saying he beat Federer in Wimbledon 2011 because he played well for 3 sets.
It's all it takes to claim the win.

In between playing well in sets 1 and 5, while surviving the onslaught in the middle sets, 2012 QF wasn't the worst.

RG 12 seppi and tsonga matches < any of the matches in RG 13 before semi

RG 13 semi vs Nadal > RG 12 final vs Nadal - overall including the fight.

RG 14 - Losing a set to in-form Gulbis doesn't mean much at all. The final, yeah, I know. But that doesn't make up 4R and QF in RG 2012.

Re: Wim 11, Tsonga played well for atleast 4 sets. Just because he lost the 2nd set in a TB doesn't mean he didn't play well in that 2nd set.
Its not just that Djokovic went 5 sets vs tsonga with tsonga playing well for only 2.5 sets, its that Djokovic had face MPs (though he did great to save them)

What about 2015? His best first 5 matches at RG? Yeah, level dipped in the SF and F, but 2012 was still clearly worse.

NatF · Dec 20, 2020

RS said:
No sure about HC for 09 but agree on clay. You could make a case 2008 was a prime year for Djokovic on clay and HC though.

It 100% was imo. Only black mark is Wimbledon really.

NoleFam · Dec 20, 2020

abmk said:
Ferrer might have beaten him if he he played like in the 1R to QF and not the semi. Remember ferrer did beat him in RG 13 in the semi after Tsonga had beaten fed in thw QF in straight sets (&not lost any set on the way). How many others were playing that well in RG 12 anyways? Not fed. delpo had his issues after going up 2 sets to love vs Fed.

I already said that. Djokovic was phenomenal on those MPs.

I'm definitely taking that Tsonga over that Ferrer. Tsonga was goating that day and never played like that before or again at RG. Tsonga didn't have to do as much to beat 2013 Federer on clay who was quite bad. Credit to Ferrer for beating him easily that year though, but Ferrer played better in 2013 than 2012.

If Roddick/Hewitt couldn't beat prime Federer at AO/Wimbledon/USO, then why couldn't Murray?

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