yes a few hours to get the general stroke, but took me a year (had to unlearn old way of hitting) to make it automatic being able to hit in all positiions/contact points when under pressure
Requesting inputs / analysis on my tennis forehand.
- Thread starter Shubham Gupta
- Start date
i remember the first thing my coach asked me, when i asked him if i should change... "are you going to be playing mostly on clay or hard?" he argued that keeping it might be good on clay, where everything sits up, and have time to get under with H grip... but on hard, gonna be much harder dealing with the lower trajectories and higher speeds.
BallChaser
Rookie
Your fh looks pretty good to me. Relax your shoulder at racket drop to create pace effortlessly.
I'm not a huge fun of your bh, which looks mostly arm-muscle-driven. I would start with copying Thiem's take-back. With exaggerated take-back, gravity and recoiling will do most of the swinging job.
I'm not a huge fun of your bh, which looks mostly arm-muscle-driven. I would start with copying Thiem's take-back. With exaggerated take-back, gravity and recoiling will do most of the swinging job.
Shubham Gupta
New User
Thanks for the inputs. I do play a lot of matches, I have a good 1st and 2nd serve and I hardly make double fault. My backhand is mostly slice and sometimes drive with 1 hand BH and the forehand is what you see, but in the video, I'm keeping it slow and smooth to enable long rallies. I can drive faster and create angles during matches.
Thanks again for the inputs!
Shubham Gupta
New User
Around 2.5 years with 2 hours daily, 15-20 mins rally and rest 1-2 sets.
I can't slice with my FH, I never developed that stroke. I can't hit fast a low slice to my FH but I can surely lift it up well with a lot of whip motion, bottom to up.
I can easily hit baseline or box with my current grip, most of my shots land near baseline, not sure if they are visible in the video.
My BH is mostly slice, but a good slice and most of my opponents struggle with it and I have good slice and I can drop it near nets or sides and it acts as a contrast to my FH, which I feel makes other play loose his rhythm. I hardly hit one hand BH when the ball comes slow and at good height.
That's good point, I do play lot of matches, I will surely make a video and post it here. Those matches usually have smaller points than my knock sessions as we both were not trying to hit winner or fast.
Shubham Gupta
New User
I did try to use a semi-western grip in my knocks yesterday and it's not that I was not able to hit with that grip, it is that it always auto-adjusted to my current grip. I thought I'm hitting on semi-western, but when I checked the camera, it was the same. I'm not sure if change now is possible or even it is, it is very difficult. My brain is making my handhold that racquet in the same way, I just can't hold the racquet like a semi-western and hit a shot.
Shubham Gupta
New User
I tend to play fine with faster balls, may be I will share a match with a flat hitter. I just can't generate enough pace as much as flat hitter do.
Shubham Gupta
New User
Thanks for your kind words. Yeah, my BH is mostly slice ( but a good one ), I hardly drive with 1 hand BH, so agree with your comments.
MasterZeb
Hall of Fame
Yep it’s gonna be an very long and difficult process trying to change it. So you’re gonna have to be very patient and accept that your level of play will get worse before it gets better, and also need to make sure you put the time in to properly re learn the forehand stroke. And that’s why completely down to you. If you know that you’re committed and focused enough to go back to the basics with that stroke, but also have the time to do it, then it would help your game in the long run.
golden chicken
Hall of Fame
To make a change you need to turn down the intensity of play until you have the mental capacity to override your current natural tendency and consciously make that change. If that means you need someone to feed you forehands from a basket of balls, then that's what it will take.
Shubham Gupta
New User
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Shubham Gupta
New User
Folks, I tried to introduce arc and be more smooth with my stroke without adding much wrist. Does this look any better? Thoughts?
PS: I triple checked, I stay on western grip even after hitting the ball.
PPS: Sorry for the video quality the white balance was off and I have to do some post-processing to make it even visible.
Slowtwitcher
Legend
Nope.
Shubham Gupta
New User
Hehe, so here's what I did, maybe you can suggest otherwise.
(1) Play knocks.
(2) Just after hitting the ball, stop the rally.
(3) Immediately look at the grip.
(4) Voila, my first knuckle is on bezel 5, right in the middle of it - Western.
Now, I don't know a better way to be sure!
Slowtwitcher
Legend
Hehe, so here's what I did, maybe you can suggest otherwise.
(1) Play knocks.
(2) Just after hitting the ball, stop the rally.
(3) Immediately look at the grip.
(4) Voila, my first knuckle is on bezel 5, right in the middle of it - Western.
Now, I don't know a better way to be sure!
This is Western grip
Shubham Gupta
New User
Maybe my stroke or execution is incorrect but based on where my first knuckle is which is suggested by every site to know the grip type, I'm on the western only.
Tennis Grips | Types of Grips Explained & Illustrated
Learn how to hold the different types of tennis grips with detailed descriptions and photos so you can easily follow along and replicate on your own.
tenniscompanion.org
Interesting, the above link uses the same racquet I have to demonstrate grips!
tennis tom
Legend
What are "knocks"?--not familiar with this term--do you mean rallying?
Shubham Gupta
New User
Yes, that's correct.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Compare impacts, yours at 1 sec to Sock's bottom video at 11 and 58 seconds. Your racket shaft still seems to have a more downward angle at impact. ? It looks as if you are using more forearm supination for racket head speed. ? Can you find an ATP forehand that resembles yours?
Camera higher would be more accurate for comparisons to that Sock video. A side view may show differences better. ?
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Topspin Shot
Legend
Your forehand grip is very extreme. But whether you ultimately want to change it or not, your contact point needs to be fixed. Specifically, your racket head is still dropped at contact, which means you aren't properly releasing your racket through contact. Despite that, you get really nice racket speed, which means your forehand could be a big weapon if you get the technique down.
Dragy
Legend
I agree with you but for "regardless" part. Odd grip makes it literally impossible to fully release, unless one hits a really high ball down. It's just how it only works to keep RF from closing - pulling the RH below the hand all the way through:
Slowtwitcher
Legend
Wheelz
Hall of Fame
Good consistency! And I'll add you look looser that's great.
Quick thing to try: I'd try to get more power from the ground with your back leg. Get lower with that leg. You'll easily get more spin and power with that swing. You are too tall and not using the ground. Maybe why you feel like you are falling back. Once your feet are setup dig into the ground and explode.
Quick thing to try: I'd try to get more power from the ground with your back leg. Get lower with that leg. You'll easily get more spin and power with that swing. You are too tall and not using the ground. Maybe why you feel like you are falling back. Once your feet are setup dig into the ground and explode.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Rotation axes are
1) uppermost body axis through the neck area as indicated by turning of the line between the two shoulders. The uppermost body turn includes the pelvis turn and turning caused by the twisting of the abdomen and spine as seen at the neck.
2) the shoulder joint (ball joint) with axis somewhat parallel to the uppermost body axis (spine at neck?)
3) other axes (for example, elbow, wrist)
The farther the racket head is from each rotation axis the higher the racket head speed.
Each Radius X Rotation Rate
If the racket head is angled down, as yours is, the racket head radius is smaller and you lose some racket speed from the uppermost body and shoulder turning. The pros are showing best of 2021 techniques for pace and consistency.
To study this, at first avoid high and low balls.
Your racket head is not as far from the 2 main axes identified above. But you appear to have more forearm supination leading to impact. ? The forearm muscles for supination are small but they only have to move the forearm, hand and racket. ? There are other sources for supination forces, such as inertia.
Note- Imagine each rotation axis extended and passing by the racket head. The radius to the racket head is measured perpendicular to each rotation axis.
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Slowtwitcher
Legend
You obviously need to read up on the Orthogonal Decomposition Theorem...
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Could you describe what the theorem does? Is it used in biomechanics?
Anyone can look at the GIF and see the uppermost body turn and the radius out from the axis to the racket head. And also how the radius becomes shorter as the elbow flexion angle & forearm-to-racket angle become more bent. It's very similar for the rotation axis through the shoulder. You can see how the OP's chosen angles increase or decrease racket head speed.
Maybe some biomechancs researchers are applying the ODT using 3D motion capture measurements and computers. ?
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Slowtwitcher
Legend
Absolutely.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Any links?
Slowtwitcher
Legend
Check my signature.
thomas daniels
Semi-Pro
You need some major work my friend and whoever let you do this, needs to be shot.
First, test out a more semi western grip, and then keep your non racket hand on the throat more with your preparation, you should me hitting more flat too on those high balls, to generate more depth.
Also, stop wasting all your energy between shots with the body tension, relax more and direct that into the ball when making contact, and use the ground force more with dynamic movement.
Start with those, after you do them, upload another video and I will add some more tips, because I don't want to give you too many things to work on in this post.
First, test out a more semi western grip, and then keep your non racket hand on the throat more with your preparation, you should me hitting more flat too on those high balls, to generate more depth.
Also, stop wasting all your energy between shots with the body tension, relax more and direct that into the ball when making contact, and use the ground force more with dynamic movement.
Start with those, after you do them, upload another video and I will add some more tips, because I don't want to give you too many things to work on in this post.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
For any interested readers -
A new non-orthogonal decomposition method to determine effective torques for three-dimensional joint rotation - PubMed
This paper describes a new non-orthogonal decomposition method to determine effective torques for three-dimensional (3D) joint rotation. A rotation about a joint coordinate axis (e.g. shoulder internal/external rotation) cannot be explained only by the torque about the joint coordinate axis...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I believe that this is research grade biomechanics and see publications where it has been applied to tennis strokes. If interested search more using Google Scholar. Google Scholar indicates a line if the full publication is available free online.
A new non-orthogonal decomposition method to determine effective torques for three-dimensional joint rotation
Masaya Hirashima 1, Kazutoshi Kudo, Tatsuyuki Ohtsuki
Affiliations expand
- PMID: 16725146
- DOI: 10.1016/j.jbiomech.2006.03.012
- J Biomech. 2008;41(2):488-9
This paper describes a new non-orthogonal decomposition method to determine effective torques for three-dimensional (3D) joint rotation. A rotation about a joint coordinate axis (e.g. shoulder internal/external rotation) cannot be explained only by the torque about the joint coordinate axis because the joint coordinate axes usually deviate from the principal axes of inertia of the entire kinematic chain distal to the joint. Instead of decomposing torques into three orthogonal joint coordinate axes, our new method decomposes torques into three "non-orthogonal effective axes" that are determined in such a way that a torque about each effective axis produces a joint rotation only about one of the joint coordinate axes. To demonstrate the validity of this new method, a simple internal/external rotation of the upper arm with the elbow flexed at 90 degrees was analyzed by both orthogonal and non-orthogonal decomposition methods. The results showed that only the non-orthogonal decomposition method could explain the cause-effect mechanism whereby three angular accelerations at the shoulder joint are produced by the gravity torque, resultant joint torque, and interaction torque. The proposed method would be helpful for biomechanics and motor control researchers to investigate the manner in which the central nervous system coordinates the gravity torque, resultant joint torque, and interaction torque to control 3D joint rotations.
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Slowtwitcher
Legend
For any interested readers -
A new non-orthogonal decomposition method to determine effective torques for three-dimensional joint rotation - PubMed
This paper describes a new non-orthogonal decomposition method to determine effective torques for three-dimensional (3D) joint rotation. A rotation about a joint coordinate axis (e.g. shoulder internal/external rotation) cannot be explained only by the torque about the joint coordinate axis...
I believe that this is research grade biomechanics and see publications where it has been applied to tennis strokes. If interested search using Google Scholar.
A new non-orthogonal decomposition method to determine effective torques for three-dimensional joint rotation
Masaya Hirashima 1, Kazutoshi Kudo, Tatsuyuki Ohtsuki
Affiliations expand
Erratum in
- PMID: 16725146
- DOI: 10.1016/j.jbiomech.2006.03.012
Abstract
- J Biomech. 2008;41(2):488-9
This paper describes a new non-orthogonal decomposition method to determine effective torques for three-dimensional (3D) joint rotation. A rotation about a joint coordinate axis (e.g. shoulder internal/external rotation) cannot be explained only by the torque about the joint coordinate axis because the joint coordinate axes usually deviate from the principal axes of inertia of the entire kinematic chain distal to the joint. Instead of decomposing torques into three orthogonal joint coordinate axes, our new method decomposes torques into three "non-orthogonal effective axes" that are determined in such a way that a torque about each effective axis produces a joint rotation only about one of the joint coordinate axes. To demonstrate the validity of this new method, a simple internal/external rotation of the upper arm with the elbow flexed at 90 degrees was analyzed by both orthogonal and non-orthogonal decomposition methods. The results showed that only the non-orthogonal decomposition method could explain the cause-effect mechanism whereby three angular accelerations at the shoulder joint are produced by the gravity torque, resultant joint torque, and interaction torque. The proposed method would be helpful for biomechanics and motor control researchers to investigate the manner in which the central nervous system coordinates the gravity torque, resultant joint torque, and interaction torque to control 3D joint rotations.
Not that this will matter, but don't forget to check out the erratum on this paper...
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Not that this will matter, but don't forget to check out the erratum on this paper...
For now, I'll stick with observing the most important rotations on high speed videos and estimating the racket head radius out from each of the spin axes. I think that most readers here can do that on the GIF of Post #76, if they look at the neck axis and racket head.
The 3D motion capture systems being applied to tennis should be able to measure racket head speeds and the skeleton videos should show us what is going on.
APAS System. Vic Braden & Andy Fitzell. View slow motion skeletal video to see what axes affect racket head speed. These are excellent for showing the separation angle of the uppermost body (line between the shoulders) and pelvis (line between the hips).
Justine Henin.
Federer forehand, straight elbow technique. See slow motion starting 46 seconds.
I miss Toly. Look especially at the uppermost body rotation (shown first) followed by the shoulder joint rotation. Significant forearm-to-racket angle changes also occur.
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socallefty
G.O.A.T.
I am in the minority here, but I think that the OP has many fundamental things he can improve on his FH and BH before he worries about changing his extreme grip. He is always off-balance with hardly any forward weight transfer when he hits his FH and has a much weaker BH. Maybe helped by his extreme grip, he is able to generate a lot of spin which is an area that other players struggle with. But, I suspect that he becomes an error machine if an opponent varies pace/depth and makes him hit a lot against low slices on the run. Or someone who attacks his BH relentlessly. He also is likely unable to flatten out his FH shot to hit winners easily once he gets the advantage during a point. So, a good coach will work on his fundamentals first on both wings before he gets around to changing his extreme (Hawaiian?) grip.
Dragy
Legend
Have you ever tried hitting with such a grip? You may find it fun to try. And check whether you can stay balanced, transfer weight forward and flatten out balls.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
No, I have not and I suspect that it will be anything but fun as all my balls will launch high - my swing is based on a SW grip. But, has anybody else? I would guess that far less than 1% of players have tried such a grip and maybe even less for coached players. So, we are all raining criticism on a grip that is very unusual without fully understanding its limitations in the hands of someone who has practiced it a lot.
If the OP were a total beginner, I would change his grip right away. But, he seems to have developed to a decent level quickly in terms of ability to hit spin with some shot tolerance especially for a self-taught player. His swing is based on that grip and he will hit a lot of balls into the net and lose all his confidence for a long time if he changes his grip. Coaches always say that grip changes are hard to implement which is why they let many talented players continue to play with non-optimal grips because they might have inherited coaching the player too late in their development.
So, I would focus on changing other aspects of his game first which are gaping weaknesses rather than his grip where I am not sure about how much it is holding him back. Kachanov, Mauresmo etc. have made it all the way to the pro level with very extreme grips, but none of them are lacking in other basic fundamentals like the OP is. It is just a matter of which change to prioritize first and it is not like the grip is the only non-textbook thing on the video. The OP is better off buying a textbook on tennis technique with a lot of pictures or watching a lot of online videos if he refuses to hire a coach which is what he really needs.
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Dragy
Legend
Yeah exactly - just a small number of athletes with their superior talent and volumes of practice managed to ally that grip with other fundamentals to achieve significant success. And we never know how good they could be with more balanced techniques...
You know you can get all the spin in the world with SW grip - after watching some Nadal tennis.
I just think it’s limiting, and particularly forcing to alter fundamental stuff you mentioned. And is hard to justify unless used by short person facing ton of high bounces, maybe.
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You're steady, move well, though how that grip of yours would standup to low fast balls I don't know. Not sure why you're cheating over to your backhand so much, you have a decent backhand slice.
Look it is fine in practice to hit so many forehands but if you cheat over to that side so much in a match, I guarantee someone will take advantage of the big hole you're leaving.
Look it is fine in practice to hit so many forehands but if you cheat over to that side so much in a match, I guarantee someone will take advantage of the big hole you're leaving.
BallChaser
Rookie
These are cool visuals! Can see clearly how and when hips and shoulders are rotated as well as the positioning of hand and arm at contact. Also, Henin and Federer are great choice. The timing and degree of shoulder rotation are quite different between these two players.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Article about Fitzell and the APAS system.
007 - Key Tennis Fundamentals With Expert Researcher Andy Fitzell
In today’s episode of the Realtennis Network, I interview one of the top tennis researchers in the industry, Andy Fitzell and we cover some of the key
www.realtennisnetwork.com
"He comes to these conclusions using the APAS system. APAS captures actual match play by stationing three cameras on the court. In the lab, Andy digitizes each body joint, on each frame, which results in a skeletal figure. Any body segment, and the racquet, can then be calculated for speed, acceleration, degrees of movement, racquet head placement at ball impact and many more kinematics."
The APAS Bradon & Fitzell videos may have been made earlier. ?
Research motion capture systems use multi-cameras, say 9, are high speed video, and view many reflective balls held by straps on specific body positions and output to computers. These systems have a weakness in that internal/external shoulder rotation can rotate the bone with such acceleration that the outside flesh with the reflective ball strap is delayed from moving instantaneously with the bone movement. There's significant delay often of many degrees.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These posts are not off topic, the OP probably has his forearm & racket shaft at too much of an angle to the horizontal. To check this requires very similar camera angles to the pro video and high speed video to catch impacts.
If you think about grips, the purpose is to control the angle of the racket face at impact. Most important is the tilt to the direction of gravity. For the ATP Semi-Western or Western grips the forearm is more horizontal at impact, the handle mostly horizontal and the closed tilt on the racket face is controlled with the stroke and grip as seen in videos. The stats on ATP forehands would show what is being done for the angle on the forearm. If you change that angle on the forearm as the OP seems to do (?), I guess that you could rotate your stance for each shot that you receive so that the face of the racket realigns to get both the azimuth and elevation over the net.
The typical ATP top spin drive racket face is about 5-10 degrees closed at impact. The grip and stroke give that closed angle for ATP forehands. If you tilt the racket shaft too far down from horizontal (see videos), a new stroke, the effect of the grip will change how closed the racket face is at impact.
Suggesting studying impacts, high speed video, of ATP pros and the angle of the forearm & racket to the vertical. Behind and side views. For the OP video use similar camera angles and high speed video to catch the ball near impacts.
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Slowtwitcher
Legend
This is cool... and thoroughly unhelpful to the OP or anyone trying to improve.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I think the racket shaft angle at impact is an issue that the OP should be aware of in 2021 vs 2051.
polksio
Semi-Pro
The good: Light on your feet
Youre trying to split step
Good rhythm with a coherent moving - stopping - coiling - hitting sequence
What could be better: Split step should be more pronounced, now you're split stepping on one leg, sometimes the split step is subtle
Your legs could be more apart to permit a bigger coil, your torso could bend over more for more torso rotation because right now its almost upright
I don't mind the grip but I want to see someone hit a low slice to your forehand and see how you deal with it with that grip.
To illustrate my coil point
Youre trying to split step
Good rhythm with a coherent moving - stopping - coiling - hitting sequence
What could be better: Split step should be more pronounced, now you're split stepping on one leg, sometimes the split step is subtle
Your legs could be more apart to permit a bigger coil, your torso could bend over more for more torso rotation because right now its almost upright
I don't mind the grip but I want to see someone hit a low slice to your forehand and see how you deal with it with that grip.
To illustrate my coil point
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Federer has a straight arm forehand technique and Henin
It takes time to find suitable forehand videos and compare. But the good side is that you learn to see the strokes with your own eyes and start building knowledge. After learning what most pros are doing you can also tell whether things that you are told about tennis strokes might be true or not.
Most posters would like a 100 word paragraph that is simple, clear and the advice is easy to learn. That's what I'd like too.
High speed videos show that 'my serve' or 'my forehand' technique is usually not the same as most ATP serve or forehand techniques.
The Tennis Stroke Nuthouse 2021.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Pat Dougherty comments on top forehands. Looks as if 2 or 3 forehands have the racket shaft angled down. OP might compare those to his.
On second look, Wawrinka's frame rate is slow for observing near impacts, so don't use.
Djokovic impacts a ball just above his knee and angles the racket shaft down, 3:39. Compare this low forehand video with closest ball height for the OP's forehands.
I don't see one with the impact height and downward racket shaft angle as for the OP videos.
On second look, Wawrinka's frame rate is slow for observing near impacts, so don't use.
Djokovic impacts a ball just above his knee and angles the racket shaft down, 3:39. Compare this low forehand video with closest ball height for the OP's forehands.
I don't see one with the impact height and downward racket shaft angle as for the OP videos.
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Hit 'em clean
Semi-Pro
I was gonna say... he's hitting with the wrong side of the racquet, LOL! That is wild... it hurts my arm just looking at contact with the racquet pointing down to the ground at contact a lot of the time. I don't know how he doesn't have major arm problems yet.
Wow I didn't catch that! I just learned how to do frame by frame youtube. That stroke is messed up! Look at the short ball at 3:23. The normal stroke is to pronate the forearm to create topspin. He's supinating the forearm to create drive.
I stand corrected. That stroke is all kinds of terrible and OP needs to start from scratch.
