How would rate Agassi of the USO 05 final?

From a scale of 1 to 9

  • Total voters
    52
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
AnOctorokForDinner said:
7 for mandy and 5,5 for joe seem adequate. The idea that Murray GOATed in the fina out of nowhere after struggling with the great Grassdasco and Janowicz is quite unfounded.

My scale as I'm using it now is bit different from what this thread etc implies it seems. 10 is virtually unattainble perfection at mythical peak from start to finish, peak goats would get like 9,5 max.
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I use a slightly lower standard accounting for dips (since it is pro tennis)
 
Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
NatF said:
Djokovic 2011 is just a 7.5 at the USO because any prime Fed beats him in five max when he starts chucking in 80 mph first serves. So by association Nadal can be no higher than a 6.5.
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Think that’s a bit harsh tbh. Everything else about Djokovic’s game was quite solid which would certainly lift him over a 7.5. Might be splitting hairs but 8-8.5 would be my guesstimate.

Or maybe we’re using different scales.
 
The Guru

The Guru

Legend
NatF said:
His movement wasn't actually that bad - it was below par but it's not like he was letting neutral balls zip by him. Don't know how we could possibly know whether it was the worst of any slam finalist ever, the fact is he moved adequetely to execute his game to a high standard for most of the match. Don't know why you're mentioning serve either tbh, don't think he served badly - better than either of the 2011 finalists ;) His return and ballstriking were all top tier as well. It's like when a ballbasher gets hot, when they're seeing the ball like a beachball their movement is less of an issue because they're making their opponents move.



lol at Nadal dominating him. Nadal served poorly in that final, he ain't yanking Agassi anywhere when Fed serving at 70%+ had big issues on serve. Even off the ground Nadal was dropping balls short for most of the match, don't think he did anything better than Fed in that match. Also more hyperbole about how Agassi couldn't move as well like I said he moved enough to hang with peak movement, serve and forehand Fed...if anything it's Agassi that runs Nadal ragged. The funny thing is injured Djokovic throwing down two second serves still breadsticked that Nadal in the fourth...so for all the talk about conditioning Nadal faded just as badly against a worse opponent.
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We've already established it was worse than injured 38 year old Federer. That's bad lol. That's really bad. The only reason I mention serve is you can get away with that movement if you're like Ivanisevic or someone who just hits nukes off the serve movement matters less. Agassi's a baseliner. He served fine sure but again not nearly as well as 38 year old injured Fed. I'm sorry but it's Fed's fault he didn't make Agassi move more when he did he won the point. He just got stubborn tactically and his BH wasn't very good.

Nadal is the best ever at manipulating opponent's court position. He would phuck Agassi by pushing him back and yanking him off the court while also retrieving like a mad man whenever he's on the back foot. He'd grind Agassi to dust. Calling 11 Djokovic injured is misleading. Sure his serve wasn't good but he was moving incredibly well and smashing groundstrokes. Worse opponent well I won't even start on that one lol.
 
The Guru

The Guru

Legend
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Peak hypocritical doublethink, what else is new. Say, we know pretty much for certain Peak Fedr cuts Stanimoll to size off clay, and by that I mean a routine win possibly in straight sets, because of the nature of their match-up, yet of course Stoon gets great marks for the actual effort he showed vs Djoel, with no regard for "it's just the joe matchup making Stan look good, Fedal bust his ass peak to peak roflmao".
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Emphasizing winning when evaluating tennis players. Wow what an insane concept lmao.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
The Guru said:
We've already established it was worse than injured 38 year old Federer. That's bad lol. That's really bad. The only reason I mention serve is you can get away with that movement if you're like Ivanisevic or someone who just hits nukes off the serve movement matters less. Agassi's a baseliner. He served fine sure but again not nearly as well as 38 year old injured Fed. I'm sorry but it's Fed's fault he didn't make Agassi move more when he did he won the point. He just got stubborn tactically and his BH wasn't very good.

Nadal is the best ever at manipulating opponent's court position. He would phuck Agassi by pushing him back and yanking him off the court while also retrieving like a mad man whenever he's on the back foot. He'd grind Agassi to dust. Calling 11 Djokovic injured is misleading. Sure his serve wasn't good but he was moving incredibly well and smashing groundstrokes. Worse opponent well I won't even start on that one lol.
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How would you rate USO 11 Djokovic?
 
AnOctorokForDinner

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
The Guru said:
We've already established it was worse than injured 38 year old Federer. That's bad lol. That's really bad. The only reason I mention serve is you can get away with that movement if you're like Ivanisevic or someone who just hits nukes off the serve movement matters less. Agassi's a baseliner. He served fine sure but again not nearly as well as 38 year old injured Fed. I'm sorry but it's Fed's fault he didn't make Agassi move more when he did he won the point. He just got stubborn tactically and his BH wasn't very good.

Nadal is the best ever at manipulating opponent's court position. He would phuck Agassi by pushing him back and yanking him off the court while also retrieving like a mad man whenever he's on the back foot. He'd grind Agassi to dust. Calling 11 Djokovic injured is misleading. Sure his serve wasn't good but he was moving incredibly well and smashing groundstrokes. Worse opponent well I won't even start on that one lol.
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stahp gaslighting pls
or not, shows who you are

senilerer's movement was worst affected in the flexibility department, probably worse than Agassi considering the impact on his returns. Agassi was worse for the run, how much is this worth? sheer retrieval would never work in their condition anyway. Sure Djokovic must have looked super cool to you winning rallies by medium pressure cause snlr couldn't attack once the early drive wore off.

peak lol at the remark on Nadal, since when defencebotting the best way to exploit positioning? Early-hitting aggression is. That's what Agassi did. He even took a set off peak cheetahdal in Canada, and despite the general trend that dal didn't serve worse than 2011usofinal disgustdoll, who was also no longer peak cheetahdal so there it is.
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
The Guru said:
We've already established it was worse than injured 38 year old Federer. That's bad lol. That's really bad. The only reason I mention serve is you can get away with that movement if you're like Ivanisevic or someone who just hits nukes off the serve movement matters less. Agassi's a baseliner. He served fine sure but again not nearly as well as 38 year old injured Fed. I'm sorry but it's Fed's fault he didn't make Agassi move more when he did he won the point. He just got stubborn tactically and his BH wasn't very good.

Nadal is the best ever at manipulating opponent's court position. He would phuck Agassi by pushing him back and yanking him off the court while also retrieving like a mad man whenever he's on the back foot. He'd grind Agassi to dust. Calling 11 Djokovic injured is misleading. Sure his serve wasn't good but he was moving incredibly well and smashing groundstrokes. Worse opponent well I won't even start on that one lol.
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Well you and Rick established lol. I don't know if there was a significant different in their movement. Also worth pointing out that Agassi being the GOAT ballstriker that he is and using his super sized racket had a more forgiving game when it comes to needing movement. Like I said, he moved well enough to put Federer on the backfoot and despite what you say Federer was good in that match...Obviously agreed on the serve but like I said he was broken the same number of times as Fed and I don't think 2020 Djokovic and 2005 Fed's return games are incomparable at all, so he obviously backed it up pretty well off the ground - enough to more than compensate IMO. What tactics did Fed do wrong BTW? I don't really recall him making a tactical error, his backhand went off for about a set and a half but that's not tactics. Maybe he should have retreated further behind the baseline? I don't think it's a case of making Agassi move more either as Federer hit a metric ton of winners there e.g. he was definitely changing directions and putting the ball in different spots.

Massive overrating of Nadal here man, he served poorly for one so Agassi is going to have him on the back foot often - he also dropped the ball short and was standing so far behind the baseline I don't see how he's going to manipulate anything. Well Djokovic was injured? lol. He was fire off the ground though. Besides you made a whole point about how important the serve was are you really going to ignore how much better Federer's serve was? So yeah worse opponent...
 
metsman

metsman

G.O.A.T.
NatF said:
Don't think the difference between D and C tier movement matters that much. Agassi returned and hit the ball way better. The serve is significant yes but Agassi's ability to get hot on the return is also significant - Federer actually only broke Agassi four times in a longer match, same as Djokovic broke Federer in 2020. In 2020 Federer redlined for about 6 games, Agassi redlined for probably 2 sets. I don't agree that he would be easy pickings for any remotely solid player, that seems ridiculous to me. Don't know what would have happened if the adrenaline from winning the third carried over or if he was able to use the fourth to conserve energy for a fifth. Most players may not have been able to push Agassi as hard in the first three sets either so maybe he's in better shape in the latter stages.

You calling it the most overrated performance on TTW is crazy man. Its baffling how different our takes are on so many matches...I think if you believe that Agassi's physical conditioning means he never had a chance of winning the match then that's fair enough I guess? But its quite obvious he played with a lot of quality in the middle two sets. To give an example this would be like me totally downplaying 2011 USO final Djokovic for having no serve in the fourth...
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The movement comparison is disingenuous anyways. Yes Federer could get to a few more balls but both guys were massive liabilities if put on the run and everyone knows that. Lol was Federer's movement when stretched in any way creating tough situations for his opponents or serving as a game changer? He was easy pickings in those situations for a few years now for John Millman and the short yellow bus crew, much less Djokovic. Laughable stuff. However, Agassi was still moving well enough inside the court to bring a top tier baseline game that could hang with anyone whereas Federer's movement hasn't been able to do that in nearly a decade. Serving is the only think post 14 Federer does meaningfully better than 05 Agassi on a HC. 05 Agassi's return and groundgame smoke his and this is 15 Federer. Now we compare to 20 Federer lmao.

Yes Federer's movement made him a bit less roadkill than Agassi in defensive situations and the 70% of the time Federer isn't playing behind his first serve the rest of his game makes him significantly more liable to be put in those defensive or neutral positions than Agassi, big whoop.
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
metsman said:
The movement comparison is disingenuous anyways. Yes Federer could get to a few more balls but both guys were massive liabilities if put on the run and everyone knows that. Lol was Federer's movement when stretched in any way creating tough situations for his opponents or serving as a game changer? He was easy pickings in those situations for a few years now for John Millman and the short yellow bus crew, much less Djokovic. Laughable stuff. However, Agassi was still moving well enough inside the court to bring a top tier baseline game that could hang with anyone whereas Federer's movement hasn't been able to do that in nearly a decade. Serving is the only think post 14 Federer does meaningfully better than 05 Agassi on a HC. 05 Agassi's return and groundgame smoke his and this is 15 Federer. Now we compare to 20 Federer lmao.
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That's why I said earlier the difference between D and C tier movement is inconsequential in this context, they're going to reach 90% of the same balls but Agassi is doing way more when he gets there. Sometimes a game is more than the sum of it's parts, what matters is what took place on the court. It's all well and good to say Agassi was moving badly so he was an easy opponent but in practice whatever his movement was he gave a damn good fight for three sets to peak Fed...and yes that was peak Fed, serving at over 70%, absolutely massive forehand and incredible footwork/movement. We know what trouble a lesser version of the man gave to Djokovic in the SF - who was playing better than he did in the final as well. So yeah massive downplaying of what Agassi brought to the table in that match.
 
P

PETEhammer

Guest
NatF said:
That's why I said earlier the difference between D and C tier movement is inconsequential in this context, they're going to reach 90% of the same balls but Agassi is doing way more when he gets there. Sometimes a game is more than the sum of it's parts, what matters is what took place on the court. It's all well and good to say Agassi was moving badly so he was an easy opponent but in practice whatever his movement was he gave a damn good fight for three sets to peak Fed...and yes that was peak Fed, serving at over 70%, absolutely massive forehand and incredible footwork/movement. We know what trouble a lesser version of the man gave to Djokovic in the SF - who was playing better than he did in the final as well. So yeah massive downplaying of what Agassi brought to the table in that match.
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Or maybe "peak Fed" is being massively uplayed, and his backhand and return weaknesses are being downplayed? Maybe, just maybe, Federer is right in assessing his own level in 2015?
 
D

Deleted member 779124

Guest
PETEhammer said:
Or maybe "peak Fed" is being massively uplayed, and his backhand and return weaknesses are being downplayed? Maybe, just maybe, Federer is right in assessing his own level in 2015?
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You could make a case that Federer was still primey up until 2012 but what makes people shake on 2015 is that in 2011 were Djokovic was on the same level Federer made slam matches a lot closer.
 
P

PETEhammer

Guest
ElisRF said:
You could make a case that Federer was still primey up till 2012 but what makes people shake on 2015 is that in 2011 were Djokovic was on the same level Federer made slam matches a lot closer.
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2015 Nole was tougher in slams and improved aspects of his game (serve, aggressive returning, anticipation) over 2011
 
AnOctorokForDinner

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
NatF said:
That's why I said earlier the difference between D and C tier movement is inconsequential in this context, they're going to reach 90% of the same balls but Agassi is doing way more when he gets there. Sometimes a game is more than the sum of it's parts, what matters is what took place on the court. It's all well and good to say Agassi was moving badly so he was an easy opponent but in practice whatever his movement was he gave a damn good fight for three sets to peak Fed...and yes that was peak Fed, serving at over 70%, absolutely massive forehand and incredible footwork/movement. We know what trouble a lesser version of the man gave to Djokovic in the SF - who was playing better than he did in the final as well. So yeah massive downplaying of what Agassi brought to the table in that match.
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The strengths and weaknesses are discerned correctly but viewed through a lens, magnifying some things and diminishing others as suits the observer. The sky kind of bias, most annoying. We all do that to some non-zero extent, but Gurufilsmug is so blatant o:O
 
D

Deleted member 779124

Guest
PETEhammer said:
2015 Nole was tougher in slams and improved aspects of his game (serve, aggressive returning, anticipation) over 2011
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Better serve and tennis smarts in 2015 but slightly better ground game in 2011 and more attacking. Slightly better in 2015 at most but it is hard to see 2015 Federer beating 2011 Djokovic in a slam and holding 2 MPs in a 2nd match.
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
The Guru said:
Nadal did serve badly for his standards and he got beaten up by 11 Djok (who's a freaking monster) while at a matchup disadvantage and with a lot of mental scar tissue. Different circumstances.

I mean it's really hard to do without a frame of reference. I don't want to give ratings but they wouldn't be consistent but I'd probably give Agassi like a 5.5 if Nadal USO is like a 7.5 and Med is a 4.5. That seems about right to me.
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Actually, he got beaten by a 2011 Djok with physical issues in the 4th.

Kind of embarrassing for 25 year old Nadal to get breadsticked in that situation, so don't see what makes him a much better opponent.
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
The Guru said:
We've already established it was worse than injured 38 year old Federer. That's bad lol. That's really bad. The only reason I mention serve is you can get away with that movement if you're like Ivanisevic or someone who just hits nukes off the serve movement matters less. Agassi's a baseliner. He served fine sure but again not nearly as well as 38 year old injured Fed. I'm sorry but it's Fed's fault he didn't make Agassi move more when he did he won the point. He just got stubborn tactically and his BH wasn't very good.

Nadal is the best ever at manipulating opponent's court position. He would phuck Agassi by pushing him back and yanking him off the court while also retrieving like a mad man whenever he's on the back foot. He'd grind Agassi to dust. Calling 11 Djokovic injured is misleading. Sure his serve wasn't good but he was moving incredibly well and smashing groundstrokes. Worse opponent well I won't even start on that one lol.
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Where's this written rule that you need to serve like Sampras/Ivanisevic to make up for weaker movement? Why can't you make up for it with great ballstriking and return like Agassi did?

Fed fired 69 winners, served over 70% and had his peak movement and FH. By any standards, he was very good and Agassi still played him close.

And in general, it's harder to move your opponent, when the latter keeps making you move with great ballstriking.

You praised 2015 Fed for executing a low percentage play in the USO final to perfection, but don't give the same credit to Agassi whatsoever for doing the same.
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
The Guru said:
The issue is that Agassi was not a strong opponent. Even a mediocre Djokovic like 2020 Djokovic has an 100% win rate against him because he had no stamina. Played 3 straight 5 setters including one on Super Saturday at 35 in the last relevant tournament of his career. A great Djokovic like 2019 Djokovic would've trashed 2020 Federer. I never claimed 2020 Djokovic was that great you put those words in my mouth. That's exactly my point. Federer was not that good in USO 05. If he was he would've beaten Agassi more routinely.
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Sure, Agassi was beatable, but the fact that he put on a strong performance does not matter at all? If Fed actually trashed him, you'd be saying "hurr durr Fedr trashed a useless old man, weak", but when he actually did put up a fight, you're still not ok with it.

2011 Nadal had no chance of winning either, yet I'm sure you're propping him up as a great opponent. The guy got breadsticked by an injured Djokovic in the 4th and even ran out of gas at only 25. :-D But I'm sure you'll still say Nadal had GOAT stamina.

Fed fired 69 winners, served at 76% and had his peak movement and FH. By any standards he was very good.

He trashed Nalbandian in the QF, so his level was clearly good enough to trash players who weren't playing well, which wasn't the case with Agassi.

The Guru said:
Sure he beat Blake (not exactly all that good to beat blake in a 5th set tiebreak lol) but also went 5 with two scrubs like guess who? 2020 Fed.
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But did Fed beat anyone on the level of 2005 Blake? No. Agassi also beat a young Berdych who'd go on to win a masters title later that same year. Fed literally beat only mugs.

The Guru said:
Fed was one point (three times) from a 6-1 set. It's not a ridiculous comparison and you saying it is is ridiculous. You win or you don't lol what garbage analysis. Djokovic W 2019>>>>>>>>>Fed W 2019 cuz hey you win or you don't right? lmfao. Clownery.
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So Agassi winning a set is the same as Fed not winning it? LMAO. You either win or you don't. And that applies to 2019 Wimb too cause I don't remember seeing Fed with the Wimb trophy in his hand LMAO.

Then there's Agassi nearly winning another set, while Fed pretty much became a non entity afterwards, but don't let that ruin your narrative.

The Guru said:
Agassi's ballstriking good as it was gave him a 0% win probability because of his physical state so in the end it really didn't do much.
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Still did much better than Fed who literally amounted to jack sh*t.

The Guru said:
Djokovic played better in the semis. The fact that you're disputing this is making me lose so much respect for you. Djokovic did not have like a 45 minute period where he looked like he was going to retire lol. And that was 2nd-3rd set so it's not like Thiem drew it out of him haha. Whatever I've said enough on this and quite frankly it's embarrassing that we're even discussing this. Djokovic 2020 is his worst AO win I'm not really hyping it you're just hyping USO 05. That's what you're not grasping.
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I just find it funny how Djokovic looked great against his old man, but Fed didn't. Awfully convenient, considering Fed had better stats than Djokovic too.

Exactly, 2020 AO was Djokovic's worst AO, while 2005 USO wasn't Fed's worst USO. So, once again, a difference in quality of the winners between 2020 Djoko and 2005 Fed, so once again Agassi had the tougher opponent.

Even discounting the 3rd set, Thiem was the tougher opponent so of course Djokovic was going to look less good.

The Guru said:
Thiem was better than Agassi and Fed didn't crush Agassi so unlikely.
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Different players and match-ups, man. Agassi takes the ball early inside the baseline, while Thiem stands 5 m behind it. Thiem is a lousy returner, while Agassi is an elite one.

Fed sure as heck wouldn't be going 5 vs Thiem, who'd be useless at returning the Fed serve probably and Fed would just rush him and would not allow him to get into a rhythm.

The Guru said:
Literally have already said Agassi was better lmao I was just making a comparison and lol at calling serve and movement intangibles ROFLMAO
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I just found it hilarious how Agassi's performance didn't matter at all just because to you Fed looked better in 2 areas, while also ignoring the areas where he looked worse than Agassi.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
mike danny said:
Sure, Agassi was beatable, but the fact that he put on a strong performance does not matter at all? If Fed actually trashed him, you'd be saying "hurr durr Fedr trashed a useless old man, weak", but when he actually did put up a fight, you're still not ok with it.

2011 Nadal had no chance of winning either, yet I'm sure you're propping him up as a great opponent. The guy got breadsticked by an injured Djokovic in the 4th and even ran out of gas at only 25. :-D But I'm sure you'll still say Nadal had GOAT stamina.

Fed fired 69 winners, served at 76% and had his peak movement and FH. By any standards he was very good.

He trashed Nalbandian in the QF, so his level was clearly good enough to trash players who weren't playing well, which wasn't the case with Agassi.


But did Fed beat anyone on the level of 2005 Blake? No. Agassi also beat a young Berdych who'd go on to win a masters title later that same year. Fed literally beat only mugs.


So Agassi winning a set is the same as Fed not winning it? LMAO. You either win or you don't. And that applies to 2019 Wimb too cause I don't remember seeing Fed with the Wimb trophy in his hand LMAO.

Then there's Agassi nearly winning another set, while Fed pretty much became a non entity afterwards, but don't let that ruin your narrative.


Still did much better than Fed who literally amounted to jack sh*t.


I just find it funny how Djokovic looked great against his old man, but Fed didn't. Awfully convenient, considering Fed had better stats than Djokovic too.

Exactly, 2020 AO was Djokovic's worst AO, while 2005 USO wasn't Fed's worst USO. So, once again, a difference in quality of the winners between 2020 Djoko and 2005 Fed, so once again Agassi had the tougher opponent.

Even discounting the 3rd set, Thiem was the tougher opponent so of course Djokovic was going to look less good.


Different players and match-ups, man. Agassi takes the ball early inside the baseline, while Thiem stands 5 m behind it. Thiem is a lousy returner, while Agassi is an elite one.

Fed sure as heck wouldn't be going 5 vs Thiem, who'd be useless at returning the Fed serve probably and Fed would just rush him and would not allow him to get into a rhythm.


I just found it hilarious how Agassi's performance didn't matter at all just because to you Fed looked better in 2 areas, while also ignoring the areas where he looked worse than Agassi.
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You two just going in circles :D
 
The Guru

The Guru

Legend
RS said:
You two just going in circles :D
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He keeps using the same responses to different things showing no reading comprehension at all. Very frustrating. Usually we have solid discussions but this one has been a total joke. Probably time to cut bait. Not worth the investment at this point.
 
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