Attila the tennis Bum
Banned
Sure Borg may have won more....but Borg did not have to contend with the like of Roger Federer or the man with the fastest serve on earth Andy Roddick or the legend Agassi and Sampras killers Hewitt and Safin.
sampras killers hewitt/safin are irrelevant
Hell no. Borg and Wilander had way tougher competition and still achieved more by around the time they turned 21 then Nadal has. As all 3 were born in the summer June-August period you can compare closely to around the point they turn 21 too. Nadal's bigger titles are all on clay, nowhere else. So you only evaluate his competition on clay alone. On clay he faces Federer, but on Federer's worst surface; and nobody else that good on clay.
Borg faced much tougher clay competition then Nadal does with Vilas, Panatta, and Nastase, all better then Federer on clay, and much tougher then anyone today outside Federer on clay. On grass where Borg had also won 2 Wimbledons by that age Borg faced Connors, Nastase, Gerulatis, and Tanner; again much tougher competition then Nadal has on clay.
Wilander won his 4th slam title, 1 more then Nadal the summer of 85, just before he turned 21. Like Borg his slams were at 2 different events, on 2 different surfaces, 2 Aussies on grass and 2 French Opens on clay, unlike Nadal. Wilander also faced much tougher competition on those surfaces then Nadal does on the only surface you evaulate the competition of his bigger wins-clay. On clay Mats faced Lendl, for a bit Vilas, and Noah. The first year Mats won the Australian he beat both Lendl and McEnroe.
I think it's closer than you think. Nadal does have some very good hardcourt results and is a Wimbledon finalist. Even his clay accomplishments alone is gobsmacking - the MC/Rome/RG combo three years in a row.
I admit that you have a point about his competition on clay. It stinks.
The slams are what matter though and Nadal has never been even past the quarters of a hard court slam, he doesnt even have semi or final losses to show for at this point. His Wimbledon final is his only other final or semi in a slam outside the French at the time of his 21st birthday.
I don't think Slams are the only thing that matters. Definitely not when looking at a 21-year old. Besides we don't know what he'll do in the upcoming two slams this year. As far as we're concerned his slam results last year were applicable to his 20th year of age, not 21st.
Let's wait until September. I admit that I find the US Open hardcourt ill-suited for Rafa's style.
Hell no. Borg and Wilander had way tougher competition and still achieved more by around the time they turned 21 then Nadal has.
Well I am comparing him to Borg and Wilander at the point they each turned 21, since Nadal just turned 21. I did not even look at what Borg and Wilander did in the year betweeen turning 21 and 22 either to be fair. I agree depending what happens before he turns 22, you could re-evaulate a comparision between Borg and Wilander. However that is in the future, as of now that is what Nadal has done, and that is exactly how it compares to guys like Borg and Wilander. What will happen in the next year while he is still 21 hasnt happened yet, whatever that is.
Slams are what matters the most by far. Especialy today when it is extremely clear the 4 slams are the most important events. That was not as much the case in the days of Borg and Wilander, and they still manage to clearly surpass Nadal in slam results by this age. There was not a circuit of 9Masters events a year then like today so I am not sure how you compare events like that.
If Nadal is playing and getting results at 25 or 26, then u might have a point.He needs to win something other then the FO.I wanna see him try and get 6 FO titles.I dont know if Nadal will be effective when he turns 25 or 26.
Greater competiton than Federer? Who?
Borgs greatest competiton was Mcenroe (Lendl was still a rookie).
Wilander lost to Noah at the French. I don't think you can compare Noah to Federer?
There was a good thread somewhere, may have been on the former pros board, that compared old events to the masters tourneys of today. Some that would qualify from 30 years ago for example are Boston, Wembley, Dallas, Philadelphia and the usual Monte Carlo/Rome/Canada. It's all very interesting.
Ok that would be helpful in fact. As it is I find it hard to look too much into Masters results today vs those past players, as the competitive circuit was so different then vs today as to what were considered the events of that level of importance vs today.
Lendl is superior to Federer on clay, without any doubt.
are you joking? Lendl lost to Chang and Chang was only playing on one leg!!
In fact Lendl almost lost to Mcenroe on clay!
Federer is a far better clay court player than Lendl ever could dream of.
Nadal is better than any clay courter that Lendl ever faced except maybe for Borg or Wilander who both beat lendl at the FO.
so who's the best claycourter Nadal has faced? .
Roger Federer....need I say anymore?
The U.S. broadcasters spent a lot of time talking about how unlucky Federer is to have Nadal around, and what an accomplishment it would be for him to beat him. But look at it from Nadal's side for a second. He's just had to beat the best player in the world, the guy who will likely be considered the best ever, three straight years at a major, two of those times in finals. Forget the fact that it's on clay; Federer is better than everyone else on dirt anyway, so Nadal's wins can't be diminished by pointing to the surface. It's not as big a deal as winning a calendar-year Slam, but Nadal's trifecta over Federer makes his current run at the French Open an accomplishment worth celebrating and remembering—shaking your head at, even—in its own right.
Greater competiton than Federer? Who?
Borgs greatest competiton was Mcenroe (Lendl was still a rookie).
Wilander lost to Noah at the French. I don't think you can compare Noah to Federer?
People have already told you they dont consider Federer as good a clay courter as the guys like Borg, Vilas, Lendl, Panatta, Nastase, and Wilander; thus dont consider Nadal to have the tougher competition where all his big wins have come, on clay. People have already told you the next best clay courter after Federer isnt even in the same league as those players.
In Noah's defense, I must mention that he actually won the French Open. No matter how great Federer is, the same can't be said about him.
Federer would have crushed anyone of those guys.
In fact Mcenroe was asked at this French open who he thought was in better shape....Nadal or Borg. Mcenroe said that although Borg was in great shape...Nadal was far stronger and hit the ball far more violently. To make matters worse.....Nadal is a lefty.
A great player playing in the 21st century should be hitting the ball far more violently then a great player playing with wood raquets in the 70s.
Bottom line...Fed would have destroyed Lendl on clay.
In a deeper era Federer is hard pressed to make the semi final at the French Open. Nadal excluded, today's tennis doesn't have a single top-notch clay court player.
Hell no. Borg and Wilander had way tougher competition
How do you figure that? A good majority of the players today are clay court players, they play clay court tennis on grass and hardcourt as well. There are more quality baseliners which leads to a bit of parity. There is really no argument that the field is deeper than ever before.
In a deeper era Federer is hard pressed to make the semi final at the French Open. Nadal excluded, today's tennis doesn't have a single top-notch clay court player.
In reality Is Nadal the greatest 21 year old ever?
OMG. Just because 2 men are dominating the sport doesn't mean that the field is weak ok ?
Sampras' 1996 French Open Run:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_French_Open_-_Men's_Singles
Didn't make the final, but beat legit clay courters, unlike Federer in either of the past two years. What's more impressive?
Do you really think that its an accident that Nadal is the first player in like the last 35 years to win the French and then get to the finals of Wimbledon!
There is really no argument that the field is deeper than ever before.
and Bruguera was coming off an injury layoff and barely in the top 100 at the time.
Oh yeah no way does Fed get waxed by Kafelnikov in a French Open semi either, tired or not.
He was in the semis in '95 & the final in '97. Clearly he was a lot better than his ranking at the '96 French.
Probably not, but its really hard to predict how someone will react physically to playing 3 five setters in one tournament, especially at the French. not many have experienced that. has Fed ever played more than one 5 setter at a major? he rarely even plays a match longer than 3 hours, not sure he'd be fresh as a daisy if he ever was pushed that much.
Forget the fact that it's on clay