Has admiration for Federer killed extreme grips in one handed backhands?

T

TennisLurker

Professional
Before Federer, when I was a kid, Kuerten was considered to have the best one handed backhand, and the best one handed backhands as strong groundstrokes that could hit winners consistently also belonged to others of what was called back then "clay court specialists", people like Corretja, Gaudio, Costa etc.
Justine Henin also had a typical clay courter one handed backhand.
They all had extreme grips to deal with topspin and its high balls.


It was rare for players that were better on fast surfaces to have good strong one handed backhands, the big exception being Korda in the 90s and Tommy Haas in the 2000s.

But now after Federer, most good one handed backhands, like Wawrinka, Dimitrov, Thiem, Tsitsipas, seem to be eastern instead of the extreme grip of claycourters.
I think the only top 100 players with extreme one handed backhands must be Gasquet and Kohlschrieber, who are both ancient for tennis players.
It's almost as if admiration for the backhand of Federer has made people want to hit it like him, even though the big kryptonite of Federer is Nadal's crosscourt topspin forehand to his backhand, and hitting high balls like that one is easier with an extrreme grip.
 
2nd Serve Ace

2nd Serve Ace

Hall of Fame
Well lets state the obvious, Rafa just basically ended 1hbh dreams of winning on clay, so the impetus to have a western grip greatly dwindled as a result.
 
M

MiamiWeekendWarrior

Hall of Fame
I have a pretty extreme 1hBH grip, much like Kuerten. High balls are still somewhat of a problem. Sure, I can hit them back with quite a bit of topspin but getting any real power is hard. But...on a knee-high to waist-high ball I can absolutely rip it back. My 1hBH down the line is actually pretty awesome when I'm playing well.
 
A

Arak

Legend
I don’t think it’s the case. Federer’s grip is mild eastern, while most other players use eastern or extreme eastern (Wawrinka). Gasquet if I remember correctly uses semi western. I don’t see any correlation to be honest.
 
T

TennisLurker

Professional
So I was wrong and I should be blaming Nadal instead for killing the clay courters with one handed backhands like Vilas, Muster, Kuerten etc, instead of blaming Federer
He made it obvious one handers are suboptimal for clay
 
2nd Serve Ace

2nd Serve Ace

Hall of Fame
TennisLurker said:
So I was wrong and I should be blaming Nadal instead for killing the clay courters with one handed backhands like Vilas, Muster, Kuerten etc, instead of blaming Federer
He made it obvious one handers are suboptimal for clay
Click to expand...
Yes and yes. You were completely wrong.
 
D

DjokoLand

Hall of Fame
From my years of playing tennis and playing on different surfaces it made me realise that peak Fed would still lose to Nadal on one leg at RG. Same reason if Nadal had of won the RG SF this year would of trashed Tsitsipas.
Top spin on Clay to a 1HBH is the hardest thing to deal with in tennis it requires the shot to be hit near perfect every time which is near impossible.

I never thought Fed was arrogant as a person but I always thought he felt like if he played his best he would beat Nadal and that really was his problem. I think it came from winning everything playing the way he wanted. Fed should of been working on solutions too Nadal early on as he could beat everyone else. But overall being 1 handed on the BH might of made him look more pleasing on the eye I bet during that time he wished he had a double handed BH
 
R

Ray Mercer

Hall of Fame
DjokoLand said:
From my years of playing tennis and playing on different surfaces it made me realise that peak Fed would still lose to Nadal on one leg at RG. Same reason if Nadal had of won the RG SF this year would of trashed Tsitsipas.
Top spin on Clay to a 1HBH is the hardest thing to deal with in tennis it requires the shot to be hit near perfect every time which is near impossible.

I never thought Fed was arrogant as a person but I always thought he felt like if he played his best he would beat Nadal and that really was his problem. I think it came from winning everything playing the way he wanted. Fed should of been working on solutions too Nadal early on as he could beat everyone else. But overall being 1 handed on the BH might of made him look more pleasing on the eye I bet during that time he wished he had a double handed BH
Click to expand...

I believe a prime Federer takes down an old Nadal at RG. Federer played him close in 2007 and 2011 when Nadal was at the peak of his powers. If you get a 2007 RG Federer against an old declined slow Nadal he can win. Nadal’s defence along with his forehand was a large reasoning Federer had trouble. Nadal is nowhere near the defender he used to be.
 
EllieK

EllieK

Hall of Fame
DjokoLand said:
From my years of playing tennis and playing on different surfaces it made me realise that peak Fed would still lose to Nadal on one leg at RG. Same reason if Nadal had of won the RG SF this year would of trashed Tsitsipas.
Top spin on Clay to a 1HBH is the hardest thing to deal with in tennis it requires the shot to be hit near perfect every time which is near impossible.

I never thought Fed was arrogant as a person but I always thought he felt like if he played his best he would beat Nadal and that really was his problem. I think it came from winning everything playing the way he wanted. Fed should of been working on solutions too Nadal early on as he could beat everyone else. But overall being 1 handed on the BH might of made him look more pleasing on the eye I bet during that time he wished he had a double handed BH
Click to expand...
He actually had his kids learn two handed.
 
D

DjokoLand

Hall of Fame
Ray Mercer said:
I believe a prime Federer takes down an old Nadal at RG. Federer played him close in 2007 and 2011 when Nadal was at the peak of his powers. If you get a 2007 RG Federer against an old declined slow Nadal he can win. Nadal’s defence along with his forehand was a large reasoning Federer had trouble. Nadal is nowhere near the defender he used to be.
Click to expand...
Still don’t think it happens for me. Federer has had some decent performances at RG against Nadal he has also had some beat downs. Yes Nadal defense is worse but even then he still wins. Nadal in the SF this year would beat Fed. Peak Fed be far the better player but the top spin and mental advantage of being RG and Federer never winning would still get the job done.

As I said it’s a good excuse for Peak Fed losing to Baby Nadal though I feel he should of worked on a solution quicker
 
D

DjokoLand

Hall of Fame
EllieK said:
He actually had his kids learn two handed.
Click to expand...
It’s the way to go. It’s actually surprising harder to hit while learning as your bad hand is on the racquet but as you get better you find that the two handed gives you more control and consistency
 
R

Ray Mercer

Hall of Fame
DjokoLand said:
Still don’t think it happens for me. Federer has had some decent performances at RG against Nadal he has also had some beat downs. Yes Nadal defense is worse but even then he still wins. Nadal in the SF this year would beat Fed. Peak Fed be far the better player but the top spin and mental advantage of being RG and Federer never winning would still get the job done.

As I said it’s a good excuse for Peak Fed losing to Baby Nadal though I feel he should of worked on a solution quicker
Click to expand...

There is no solution to Nadal’s lefty topspin to the one hander and Nadal’s retrieiving abilities. Nadal at his best at RG is unbeatable. An 2006-2010 Nadal would stomp the current version of Nadal that Djokovic beat. Nadal moves like an old man now.
 
EllieK

EllieK

Hall of Fame
DjokoLand said:
It’s the way to go. It’s actually surprising harder to hit while learning as your bad hand is on the racquet but as you get better you find that the two handed gives you more control and consistency
Click to expand...
I tried it. I do better single handed though. My coach finally gave in.
 
BeatlesFan

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
TennisLurker said:
Before Federer, when I was a kid, Kuerten was considered to have the best one handed backhand....
Click to expand...
You're forgetting about this gentleman.

4bfd0ddde3ff7bdd343c9b9853babd26.jpg
 
King No1e

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
TennisLurker said:
Before Federer, when I was a kid, Kuerten was considered to have the best one handed backhand, and the best one handed backhands as strong groundstrokes that could hit winners consistently also belonged to others of what was called back then "clay court specialists", people like Corretja, Gaudio, Costa etc.
Justine Henin also had a typical clay courter one handed backhand.
They all had extreme grips to deal with topspin and its high balls.


It was rare for players that were better on fast surfaces to have good strong one handed backhands, the big exception being Korda in the 90s and Tommy Haas in the 2000s.

But now after Federer, most good one handed backhands, like Wawrinka, Dimitrov, Thiem, Tsitsipas, seem to be eastern instead of the extreme grip of claycourters.
I think the only top 100 players with extreme one handed backhands must be Gasquet and Kohlschrieber, who are both ancient for tennis players.
It's almost as if admiration for the backhand of Federer has made people want to hit it like him, even though the big kryptonite of Federer is Nadal's crosscourt topspin forehand to his backhand, and hitting high balls like that one is easier with an extrreme grip.
Click to expand...
Thiem and Wawrinka have fairly extreme grips. Certainly more than Fed and Tsitsipas, at any rate.
 
D

DjokoLand

Hall of Fame
Ray Mercer said:
There is no solution to Nadal’s lefty topspin to the one hander and Nadal’s retrieiving abilities. Nadal at his best at RG is unbeatable. An 2006-2010 Nadal would stomp the current version of Nadal that Djokovic beat. Nadal moves like an old man now.
Click to expand...
There might not be a 100% solution but he could of worked on something and obviously Nadal was miles better then.
 
WhiskeyEE

WhiskeyEE

G.O.A.T.
I use the extreme BH grip (3/4 western forehand grip) just because it's the same as my forehand grip.

I've always wondered which pros are the same.

I legit use either 3/4 western or continental for every shot.
 
D

DjokoLand

Hall of Fame
EllieK said:
I tried it. I do better single handed though. My coach finally gave in.
Click to expand...
That’s the reason people choose one handed as when they start out it’s easier to hit and feels more comfortable but as you start to get better it becomes apparent that a 2 handed BH is the way too go
 
B

BayAreaBooster

Rookie
DjokoLand said:
From my years of playing tennis and playing on different surfaces it made me realise that peak Fed would still lose to Nadal on one leg at RG. Same reason if Nadal had of won the RG SF this year would of trashed Tsitsipas.
Top spin on Clay to a 1HBH is the hardest thing to deal with in tennis it requires the shot to be hit near perfect every time which is near impossible.

I never thought Fed was arrogant as a person but I always thought he felt like if he played his best he would beat Nadal and that really was his problem. I think it came from winning everything playing the way he wanted. Fed should of been working on solutions too Nadal early on as he could beat everyone else. But overall being 1 handed on the BH might of made him look more pleasing on the eye I bet during that time he wished he had a double handed BH
Click to expand...

Peak Fed blew 2 championship points at Rome 2006 against Peak Rafa on clay. Who knows, Fed might have won a few more RGs if he had converted them...then again, this is nothing new for Fed.

Something to ponder.
 
D

DjokoLand

Hall of Fame
BayAreaBooster said:
Peak Fed blew 2 championship points at Rome 2006 against Peak Rafa on clay. Who knows, Fed might have won a few more RGs if he had converted them...then again, this is nothing new for Fed.

Something to ponder.
Click to expand...
Yeah but it’s like when Djokovic used to beat Nadal at Rome then get easily beaten at RG.
The top spin is the main reason it’s also Nadal’s mentality that he can’t lose at RG plus as you said Fed has had his moments in tight situations
 
sredna42

sredna42

Hall of Fame
Arak said:
I’m pretty sure Wawrinka uses extreme eastern, sometimes SW.
Click to expand...
Its a subject thats been done to death here in the past. He uses eastern, with maybe sone variation on the heelpad, thars seems to be what everythread concluded from memory. And iirc on low fast shots sometimes uses near continental to hit through it. Its his huge torso uncoil that makes his bh unique, not his grip.
 
Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Does anyone have close up photos of Federer’s top spin backhand grip? I feel like it’s not full eastern.
 
socallefty

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
If anything admiration for the 2HBHs of Djokovic/Nadal and the way they return serve and play on high-bouncing surfaces has killed the 1HBH for the most part. The few kids who continue to play with 1HBHs all pick their own style/grips with no orthodoxy anymore on how to hit 1HBHs as it is kind of a rebellious way to play. The textbook technique taught by almost all coaches to beginners and in particular kids is the 2HBH.
 
B

Blahovic

Professional
merwy said:
A one hander was 2-0 in sets up in the most recent RG final so I wouldn’t put it like that. Besides, Federer did win there once.
Click to expand...
Actually a 1bh player is often contending for RG. RF 2005-2011, Wawrinka 2015-17, Thiem 2016-2020, Tsitsipas since 2020. The time to take a full swing and the usefulness of being able to generate heavy topspin from both wings on clay means modern one handers are often best on clay.

Plus guys like Almagro, Gasquet, Musetti etc like or liked clay.
 
Q

Quaichang

Semi-Pro
DjokoLand said:
Yeah but it’s like when Djokovic used to beat Nadal at Rome then get easily beaten at RG.
The top spin is the main reason it’s also Nadal’s mentality that he can’t lose at RG plus as you said Fed has had his moments in tight situations
Click to expand...
That 2006 Rome final was bo5. Beating Rafa on clay bo5 is a different ball game. Fed would have got a huge confidence boost had he won that match.
 
Z

Zoid

Hall of Fame
TennisLurker said:
Before Federer, when I was a kid, Kuerten was considered to have the best one handed backhand, and the best one handed backhands as strong groundstrokes that could hit winners consistently also belonged to others of what was called back then "clay court specialists", people like Corretja, Gaudio, Costa etc.
Justine Henin also had a typical clay courter one handed backhand.
They all had extreme grips to deal with topspin and its high balls.


It was rare for players that were better on fast surfaces to have good strong one handed backhands, the big exception being Korda in the 90s and Tommy Haas in the 2000s.

But now after Federer, most good one handed backhands, like Wawrinka, Dimitrov, Thiem, Tsitsipas, seem to be eastern instead of the extreme grip of claycourters.
I think the only top 100 players with extreme one handed backhands must be Gasquet and Kohlschrieber, who are both ancient for tennis players.
It's almost as if admiration for the backhand of Federer has made people want to hit it like him, even though the big kryptonite of Federer is Nadal's crosscourt topspin forehand to his backhand, and hitting high balls like that one is easier with an extrreme grip.
Click to expand...

If you go more extreme you have a bigger grip change to make. So there's that. We've seen Kohlschreiber and Almagro counter this by using the same side of the racquet on returns.
Almagro here
Kohlschreiber here

I honestly just think it's coincidence. You can still handle high balls with a more conservative grip if you swing with a straight arm and use your upper body more as Thiem does (and Wawrinka to an extent).
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Zoid said:
If you go more extreme you have a bigger grip change to make. So there's that. We've seen Kohlschreiber and Almagro counter this by using the same side of the racquet on returns.
Almagro here
Kohlschreiber here

I honestly just think it's coincidence. You can still handle high balls with a more conservative grip if you swing with a straight arm and use your upper body more as Thiem does (and Wawrinka to an extent).
Click to expand...
Wawrinka gets rekt by Nadal.
 
Lukhas

Lukhas

Legend
Blahovic said:
Actually a 1bh player is often contending for RG. RF 2005-2011, Wawrinka 2015-17, Thiem 2016-2020, Tsitsipas since 2020. The time to take a full swing and the usefulness of being able to generate heavy topspin from both wings on clay means modern one handers are often best on clay.

Plus guys like Almagro, Gasquet, Musetti etc like or liked clay.
Click to expand...
To give it some context, there have been three times more different players with a 1HBHs in the finals of Roland since 2000 than at Wimbledon despite Nadal. In fact, all three Wimbledon finalists with a 1HBH since then are multiple slam winners, former #1s... and very retired. If anything, clay is one of the last surfaces where the one-hander is still somewhat relevant, even though there something like 10 users in the top 100 on average and that the stroke is very much on perpetual life support.

Nadal is the kind of player who would find your backhand even if you had two forehands, so while he didn't help, I don't think he's responsible for this situation either.
 
B

Blahovic

Professional
Zoid said:
True. Hard to tease apart how much is purely backhand exchange related; Wawrinka's chip return strategy gets really penalized v Nadal. If you chip return against Nadal as a righty, you're going to have a bad time.
Click to expand...
In general, Wawrinka struggles to defend against Nadal -- which you can't struggle with if you want to beat Nadal on clay. The lefty serve, the serve + 1, the angles Nadal creates and the heavy topspin all take Wawrinka out of his strike zone and allow Nadal to expose Wawrinka's movement.

Although Wawrinka probably puts up a more respectable fight in his 2014-2016 peak run.
 
Clay lover

Clay lover

Legend
If you know so little about tennis that you believe you can “copy" Federer's strokes, you probably can't tell an SW apart from an E. Also what works biomechanically for one might not for another. No matter how effective the SW is it's inherently a more awkward grip to hit with so some just simply may not find it natural.

I think this is merely coincidence.
 
basil J

basil J

Hall of Fame
Gaudio's ability to take balls on the rise made his 1HBH stand out on slow surfaces, often catching his opponent flat footed. Haas was great when he had time to set up as well.
 
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