Does Nadal have the best passing shot in tennis history?

G

Golden Retriever

Hall of Fame
I think what Nadal really does best is hitting passing shots. He can consistently pass anyone from either side even when he is way out of position on the full run. I don't think anyone can do that as well as he does in tennis history.

His strategy is very simple. At the baseline he has the advantage by using his lefty forehand to hit heavy topspin to his opponent's backhand. If his opponent comes to the net he will get passed 8 out of 10 times. It is a no win situation (for his opponent) especially on clay.
 
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habib

Professional
93sq. said:
mmm....NO!
Agassi's passing shot was better...
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Agassi was better at hitting a passing shot from the baseline off virtually no warning or preparation. I'd like to see him hit one from 15 feet back and 10 feet laterally off the court. IMO, both Nadal and Federer hit as good or better passing shots as we've ever seen. I think Fed has more precision combined from the forehand and backhand sides, whereas Nadal's ability to pass from way off court is better.
 
G

Golden Retriever

Hall of Fame
Agassi's passing shot was great only when he could set up for it. Agassi could never pull off those out of position on the full run passing shots like Nadal can.
 
WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis

WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis

Hall of Fame
Nadal hits some great passing shots, but greatest in all tennis history? I don't believe so, just because it is still rather early in his career. Well, not only because of that, but because of the other great ones like:

-Connors who hit some amazing passing shots, and was known for the insane angles he could generate.

-Lendl...cool as ever, would tag it wherever the volleyer was not, then walk away straightening his strings.

Agassi could hit some good ones consistently, sure, but...I think Nadal's look really spectacular because of the spin used. Looks like its going out perhaps, but drops back in, and that sometimes he seems out of it, but with the strength of his arm, speed and ability makes me pass. He's good and way better than average on tour today, but greatest in tennis history, no.
 
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habib

Professional
WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis said:
Nadal hits some great passing shots, but greatest in all tennis history? No, I don't believe so, just because it is still rather early in his career. Connors hit some amazing passing shots, and was known for the insane angles he could generate. Lendl...cool as ever, would tag it wherever the volleyer was not, then walk away straightening his strings. I think Nadal's look really spectacular because of the spin used. Looks like its going out perhaps, but drops back in. Excellent passers, yes, but greatest in history, not yet IMO.
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Well, it's that very spin which makes him (and Federer) such supreme passers, and allows them both to hit angles at pace which players of the past could only dream about. They don't need to worry as much about hitting the court, and can dip the ball like no one else (certainly no one in the 80s).
 
Vincescourt

Vincescourt

New User
Its very hard to say Nadal has the best passing shot ever, he plays in an era where you stand at the baseline and whack away at the ball. Conners, Agassi, Lendl those are players that had great passing shots they played against some of the best serve and volley players tennis has seen. Nadal is a great player and can hit a spectacular passing shot on the run but what would he be able to do against Sampras when he serves and volleys every single time. Its not the same as hitting one or two passing shots a match.
 
Doc Hollidae

Doc Hollidae

Hall of Fame
habib said:
Agassi was better at hitting a passing shot from the baseline off virtually no warning or preparation. I'd like to see him hit one from 15 feet back and 10 feet laterally off the court. IMO, both Nadal and Federer hit as good or better passing shots as we've ever seen. I think Fed has more precision combined from the forehand and backhand sides, whereas Nadal's ability to pass from way off court is better.
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Agassi would never be back 10-15 ft off the court. He was on or in front of the baseline the whole time.
 
WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis

WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis

Hall of Fame
habib said:
Well, it's that very spin which makes him (and Federer) such supreme passers, and allows them both to hit angles at pace which players of the past could only dream about. They don't need to worry as much about hitting the court, and can dip the ball like no one else (certainly no one in the 80s).
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Just because it has spin doesn't make it supreme in and of itself, just makes it a different type shot. You need to go back and watch Connors for example, he was as great, if not better, but certainly not surpassed regarding angles by any player today, as yet.
 
Doc Hollidae

Doc Hollidae

Hall of Fame
Vincescourt said:
Its very hard to say Nadal has the best passing shot ever, he plays in an era where you stand at the baseline and whack away at the ball. Conners, Agassi, Lendl those are players that had great passing shots they played against some of the best serve and volley players tennis has seen. Nadal is a great player and can hit a spectacular passing shot on the run but what would he be able to do against Sampras when he serves and volleys every single time. Its not the same as hitting one or two passing shots a match.
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Good point. Not saying that today's players are capable or competent volleyers, but players in the past had to face true serve and volleyers. Roddick, Federer, Djokovic, etc. at the net aren't nearly as opposing as McEnroe, Rafter, Edberg, Sampras, etc.
 
WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis

WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis

Hall of Fame
Doc Hollidae said:
Good point. Not saying that today's players are capable or competent volleyers, but players in the past had to face true serve and volleyers. Roddick, Federer, Djokovic, etc. at the net aren't nearly as opposing as McEnroe, Rafter, Edberg, Sampras, etc.
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Excellent point. Had to have nerves of steel when Edberg was coming, and you knew with absolute certainty he would be and you had to hit the best ever to make him miss or get it past him.

Becker, too. And though a lot of people don't credit him so much, Pat Cash as well. He was relentlessly moving forwards aggressively to cut off any angle, virtually every point.

Nadal's a great passer, amazing, and its unfortunate he is not challenged by good serve and volleyer so he could prove decisively (if he is to be called so) he has the greatest passing shot of all time. I think the quality of the person coming in that you are passing counts for something towards this.
 
Stinkdyr

Stinkdyr

Professional
yep, pretty much!

Ya gotta love that "wrong-footed, falling on his ass, half-volley-at-the-baseline-flick-of-wrist power backhand passing shot past the greatest player of all time" that Nadal blew past Rog. Unfunckingbelievable. And I am not a Nada fan. Just giving him his due props for court play.....despite his cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesy wanna-be beard and butt-pirate snarl. Whatta wanker. But man, can he scramble and whack a ball.
 
H

habib

Professional
WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis said:
Just because it has spin doesn't make it supreme in and of itself, just makes it a different type shot. You need to go back and watch Connors for example, he was as great, if not better, but certainly not surpassed regarding angles by any player today, as yet.
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Sure it doesn't make it supreme in and of itself. But it's the ability to employ such spin, combined with his and Fed's movement and anticipation which do. I've watched Connors, and the angles he was able to hit with flat shots were very impressive. However, with the topspin these guys can generate, they can hit those angles with far more pace and tons more dip. I'll grant you that the quality of volleyers those guys faced was certainly a level above what we have today, and that the nerves to hit the passes he did must have been nigh indestructible. Yet, from a purely technical perspective, I think Fed and Rafa are the best passers the game has seen. The way they can use spin to quite literally loop balls around opponents like a soccer player can bend the ball around the wall is amazing and far beyond what Connors could have even attempted. Down the line passing shot? Try outside of the court and back in passing shot.
 
H

harperselitebuiltfortough

Guest
how can you say nadal has the greatest passing shots of all time when he has only been on the pro tour for aroudn three of four years, think of all the other legends who have won many more majors than nadal, im not hating but can you wait the say nadal is the best in history, though he has proved himself to be an elite tennis player
 
WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis

WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis

Hall of Fame
habib said:
Sure it doesn't make it supreme in and of itself.
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Yes, but the fact is, others could hit topspin bh's, etc. like Sampras for instance, but they did not do it shot in, shot out....they used variety. It was amazing Connors could achieve the angles he did hitting a flat ball without hitting it into the net. Never said Fed or Nadal don't have tremendous passing shots, but saying they surpass others just because they use spin primarily, no, I do not agree with.
 
H

habib

Professional
harperselitebuiltfortough said:
how can you say nadal has the greatest passing shots of all time when he has only been on the pro tour for aroudn three of four years, think of all the other legends who have won many more majors than nadal, im not hating but can you wait the say nadal is the best in history, though he has proved himself to be an elite tennis player
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Why not? No one's saying he's the greatest player of all time - which requires a lot of time to establish. Would Sampras have had any worse a reputation for his serve had he only stayed on tour for 4-5 years?
 
CyBorg

CyBorg

Legend
harperselitebuiltfortough said:
how can you say nadal has the greatest passing shots of all time when he has only been on the pro tour for aroudn three of four years, think of all the other legends who have won many more majors than nadal, im not hating but can you wait the say nadal is the best in history, though he has proved himself to be an elite tennis player
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Um, exactly how does being on the tour more make one's passing shot better?

Ever think logically?
 
H

habib

Professional
WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis said:
Yes, but the fact is, others could hit topspin bh's, etc. like Sampras for instance, but they did not do it shot in, shot out....they used variety. It was amazing Connors could achieve the angles he did hitting a flat ball without hitting it into the net. Never said Fed or Nadal don't have tremendous passing shots, but saying they surpass others just because they use spin primarily, no, I do not agree with.
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Again, it's not just using spin which IMO results in them surpassing their predecessors. I'm not calling Bruegera a great passer, am I? It's the way they can take balls from almost anywhere and, by virtue of the spin they generate, power it by, around, or under the net-rusher that makes me think they're that good at it in a historical context.
 
WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis

WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis

Hall of Fame
habib said:
Again, it's not just using spin which IMO results in them surpassing their predecessors. I'm not calling Bruegera a great passer, am I? It's the way they can take balls from almost anywhere and, by virtue of the spin they generate, power it by, around, or under the net-rusher that makes me think they're that good at it in a historical context.
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Others could do that also and didn't just use spin, that's the point. Sampras, Lendl, Agassi, etc. Fed and Nadal are good at it in a historical sense, and in the top 5 absolutely, but surpass? No, and not especially because of the lesser quality of serve and volleyers they play against today. End line.
 
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H

habib

Professional
WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis said:
Others could do that also and didn't just use spin, that's the point. Sampras, Lendl, Agassi, etc. Fed and Nadal are good at it in a historical sense, and in the top 5 absolutely, but surpass? No, and not especially because of the lesser quality of serve and volleyers they play against today. End line.
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Uhh, ok. I don't think Sampras, Lendl or Agassi ever hit the same quality of passing shot as Fed and Nadal have demonstrated, and much of this has to do with the evolution of the game (all players hitting harder and with greater spin off the ground). If you think otherwise, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis

WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis

Hall of Fame
habib said:
Uhh, ok. I don't think Sampras, Lendl or Agassi ever hit the same quality of passing shot as Fed and Nadal have demonstrated, and much of this has to do with the evolution of the game (all players hitting harder and with greater spin off the ground). If you think otherwise, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Really quite funny actually, "If you think otherwise, we'll just have to agree to disagree..." If I think otherwise...?? Why should I agree to what you say just because you've said it, your opinion...and if not...? Quite humorous really suggestion really.

Having watched first hand all the players you and I listed, that is what I base my thoughts on, not just watching recent players and youtube replays. But from watching 1,000s of matches late 70s, 80s, 90s up til present.

You missed the complete point of what I was saying. I acceded Fed and Nadal were certainly among the best ever, you did nothing of the sort, even with the majority of others have said, no as well.

Thus it's immaterial at this point.You do not need to convince me of anything, nor do I need to convince you of anything. That is why I wrote endline. Don't know why you said, "If you think otherwise, we'll just have to agree to disagree..." That just cracks me up :)
 
H

habib

Professional
WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis said:
Really quite funny actually, "If you think otherwise, we'll just have to agree to disagree..." If I think otherwise...?? Why should I agree to what you say just because you've said it, your opinion...and if not...? Quite humorous really suggestion really.
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That's the point, which I think you missed for whatever reason. I don't think you should agree with what I say just because I've said it. It's clearly my opinion. And the same goes with regards to me agreeing with your opinions. No matter how much tennis you've watched, they're still just opinions. If we disagree on the fundamentals of our argument, it's not going to go anywhere and we're better off not continuing it. Hence the "agree to disagree." Clearly if I think that no one's hit this quality of passing shots before, and you do, there's a fundamental disagreement that likely won't get resolved. *sigh*

Having watched first hand all the players you and I listed, that is what I base my thoughts on, not just watching recent players and youtube replays. But from watching 1,000s of matches late 70s, 80s, 90s up til present.

You missed the complete point of what I was saying. I acceded Fed and Nadal were certainly among the best ever, you did nothing of the sort, even with the majority of others have said, no as well.
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Why are you assuming that my conclusions are based on Youtube clips and watching modern players? Moreover, when didn't I accede that Fed and Nadal were, at least, among the best ever wrt to passing shots?? My obvious endorsement of their passing shots didn't imply this? What? Quite, as you say, funny, actually.

Thus it's immaterial at this point.You do not need to convince me of anything, nor do I need to convince you of anything. That is why I wrote endline. Don't know why you said, "If you think otherwise, we'll just have to agree to disagree..." That just cracks me up :)
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I'm glad it cracks you up, since this is exactly what I said.
 
N

NamRanger

G.O.A.T.
habib said:
Uhh, ok. I don't think Sampras, Lendl or Agassi ever hit the same quality of passing shot as Fed and Nadal have demonstrated, and much of this has to do with the evolution of the game (all players hitting harder and with greater spin off the ground). If you think otherwise, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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You've obviously never seen Pete Sampras hit a forehand on the run. Watch him play Agassi at the Australian Open 2001 where he rips back Agassi's winner at an unbelivable angle from the back of the court in the tie break, 4th set. Absolutely rediculous.
 
H

habib

Professional
NamRanger said:
You've obviously never seen Pete Sampras hit a forehand on the run. Watch him play Agassi at the Australian Open 2001 where he rips back Agassi's winner at an unbelivable angle from the back of the court in the tie break, 4th set. Absolutely rediculous.
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Thanks, I'm glad you're operating off assumptions. Very astute of you. In point of fact, I did watch Sampras for the better part of his career, and caught the point of which you speak. None of your comments, however, do anything to counter in any way what I've said, since you're not going to prove anything based on a single shot, and even if you were, I could almost guarantee that you could find more impressive passing shots hit by Federer and Nadal (taking nothing away from the amazing Sampras passer in question). I would even argue (and I'm far more a fan of Fed than Nadal) that Nadal hit two or three equally 'rediculously unbelivable' shots yesterday, and I shouldn't even need to bring up Federer's pass from the 05 W final (?) which went outside the court and around Roddick by a few feet before curling back in.
 
The Gorilla

The Gorilla

Banned
habib said:
Thanks, I'm glad you're operating off assumptions. Very astute of you. In point of fact, I did watch Sampras for the better part of his career, and caught the point of which you speak. None of your comments, however, do anything to counter in any way what I've said, since you're not going to prove anything based on a single shot, and even if you were, I could almost guarantee that you could find more impressive passing shots hit by Federer and Nadal (taking nothing away from the amazing Sampras passer in question). I would even argue (and I'm far more a fan of Fed than Nadal) that Nadal hit two or three equally 'rediculously unbelivable' shots yesterday, and I shouldn't even need to bring up Federer's pass from the 05 W final (?) which went outside the court and around Roddick by a few feet before curling back in.
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it's sarcastic posts like these that provoke people that make you a troll.
 
H

habib

Professional
The Gorilla said:
it's sarcastic posts like these that provoke people that make you a troll.
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You clearly don't know what a troll is, and considering that there was only one sentence in that entire post that was sarcastic, I think you may have trouble with the definition of "post" as well. I don't think I've said anything in this thread that's particularly heretical, and most of it has pretty good logical basing - Nadal and Fed DO hit spectacular passing shots, after all - and was posted whilst staying very mindful of past greats - I have seen Lendl, Connors, Agassi, and Sampras play rather extensively.

Now shoo.
 
superman1

superman1

Legend
It's hard to say. Agassi was hitting passing shots on fast grass with weaker strings against some really great net players. People new to tennis wouldn't know much about this since it has been baseline to baseline for a while now, but watch Agassi play back in the 90's and you'll see how good he was. He had one of the best lobs ever.

Nadal can hit some phenomenal passing shots, but it's too hard to compare given the drastically different conditions that make it a lot easier to pass guys at the net.
 
Kobble

Kobble

Hall of Fame
I think Nadal has the best. His running passing shots are the best I have seen. I would say Nadal>Federer>Agassi. Agassi didn't dip the ball like Federer and Nadal can.
 
S

sondraj

Semi-Pro
Vincescourt said:
Its very hard to say Nadal has the best passing shot ever, he plays in an era where you stand at the baseline and whack away at the ball. Conners, Agassi, Lendl those are players that had great passing shots they played against some of the best serve and volley players tennis has seen. Nadal is a great player and can hit a spectacular passing shot on the run but what would he be able to do against Sampras when he serves and volleys every single time. Its not the same as hitting one or two passing shots a match.
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I'm not quite sure about the older players because I wasn't around to see them but as far as rafa is concerned he makes people like fed afraid to go to net.

In some of Fed's interviews he has said that he is very aware that if you goes to net that he wins the majority of points against rafa but what people don't understand is that 9 times out of 10 he is either going to get to the ball or make an incredible passing shot that you can't get to. So that makes it very hard to play the net on him

I do think some people underestimate his passing shots. They are in fact quite remarkable so much so that his opponents are afraid to try anything where he might have the opportunity to pass them and with rafa that opportunity isn't so far fetch because if you are anywhere near net he will likely pass you ,no matter where he is on court

Out of position, on the run, he def doesn't need to set them up he just pulls them off
 
veritech

veritech

Hall of Fame
habib said:
Thanks, I'm glad you're operating off assumptions. Very astute of you. In point of fact, I did watch Sampras for the better part of his career, and caught the point of which you speak. None of your comments, however, do anything to counter in any way what I've said, since you're not going to prove anything based on a single shot, and even if you were, I could almost guarantee that you could find more impressive passing shots hit by Federer and Nadal (taking nothing away from the amazing Sampras passer in question). I would even argue (and I'm far more a fan of Fed than Nadal) that Nadal hit two or three equally 'rediculously unbelivable' shots yesterday, and I shouldn't even need to bring up Federer's pass from the 05 W final (?) which went outside the court and around Roddick by a few feet before curling back in.
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i remember that. that was one of the sickest passing shots i've ever seen.
 
H

habib

Professional
superman1 said:
It's hard to say. Agassi was hitting passing shots on fast grass with weaker strings against some really great net players. People new to tennis wouldn't know much about this since it has been baseline to baseline for a while now, but watch Agassi play back in the 90's and you'll see how good he was. He had one of the best lobs ever.

Nadal can hit some phenomenal passing shots, but it's too hard to compare given the drastically different conditions that make it a lot easier to pass guys at the net.
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This is of course true. Still, when people talk about the best forehand ever, the discussion usually focuses on Sampras and Federer and revolves mainly around the effect of the actual shot, not necessarily the related external elements which may have resulted in it. This is why I think Nadal and Fed belong up there - because the passing shots they hit are usually unbelievable for the shot itself. Bringing those elements in, of course players like Agassi et al are right up there.
 
WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis

WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis

Hall of Fame
As can see down the thread, LOL, yet again. I said, yes fine I agree with some of what you said, but it wasn't good enough for you. I found your statement humourous, and then of course, you have to pick apart every letter just for...? hmm whatever reason.

You're a trip because I agreed with the basis of what you said, but you still have to go ON and ON just to try to chance someone's mind, when they told you, OK ALREADY, LET IT GO! Guess you have really a bone to pick about this. But can't you be adult and not only that, but MATURE, and let it go without having to keep going on and on?


I guess you still think you have something to prove, and you still need to try to convince people your way of thinking is the best. I will ignore you henceforth on this subject. Just not worth it LOL Life is too short to bother discussing something with someone who misses points AGAIN and AGAIN. Take a deep breath. Contact the spectral form of Mr. Miyagi. You don't need to address everything I say, or one up me, it's simply not necessary. Whatever contest of that sort you are trying to win, you can have the victory.
 
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WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis

WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis

Hall of Fame
quest01 said:
I think Nadal has one of the best running 2 handed backhands in the game today.
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I agree, its very amazing the angles he can generate, and just when you think he can't pull it around, he pulls it around and wins. That's been the point of what I've said, Nadal is amazing in the game today, but to say he is the greatest ever at this shot...No.
 
EliteNinja

EliteNinja

Semi-Pro
Nadal has unbelievable passing shots.

I'd pay to watch him play a peak Edberg.
That would just be an insanely fun match to watch.
 
H

habib

Professional
WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis said:
As can see down the thread, LOL, yet again. I said, yes fine I agree with some of what you said, but it wasn't good enough for you. I found your statement humourous, and then of course, you have to pick apart every letter just for...? hmm whatever reason.

You're a trip because I agreed with the basis of what you said, but you still have to go ON and ON just to try to chance someone's mind, when they told you, OK ALREADY, LET IT GO! Guess you have really a bone to pick about this. But can't you be adult and not only that, but MATURE, and let it go without having to keep going on and on?


I guess you still think you have something to prove, and you still need to try to convince people your way of thinking is the best. I will ignore you henceforth on this subject. Just not worth it LOL Life is too short to bother discussing something with someone who misses points AGAIN and AGAIN. Take a deep breath. Contact the spectral form of Mr. Miyagi. You don't need to address everything I say, or one up me, it's simply not necessary. Whatever contest of that sort you are trying to win, you can have the victory.
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Double you tee ef? Jesus but you're hypersensitive, especially since virtually everything I've posted since our last exchange has been in response to other people on other aspects of the discussion. Who's not letting what go, here?
 
jkonecne

jkonecne

Rookie
He definitely has one of the best passing shots today, but definitely not the best. Especially best of all time. There are a number of players that were better.
 
superman1

superman1

Legend
It's actually impossible to say "all time," since Nadal rarely even has to hit passing shots compared to players in the past. How could he be the best of all time at something that he doesn't get much practice at? He has never had to go into a match thinking, "okay, this guy comes in on 1st and 2nd serves, I need to figure out a way to get past him..."

I'm fine with saying that he's one of the best, but certainly not THE best.
 
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