Is prime, non-injured lost gen better than next gen?

Is prime non-injured lost gen better than next gen?

  • Total voters
    46
Jokervich

Jokervich

Hall of Fame
Lost gen is guys like Nishikori, Dimitrov, Raonic, Cilic, PCB, Goffin, Del Potro. Next gen is guys like Zverev, Medvedev, Tsitsipas, Berrettini, Rublev, maybe guys like Shapo and FAA although I don't know if you'd count those as part of the next next gen.

Seeing Dimitrov dismantle Medvedev at Indian Wells and send him into a major meltdown where he had no answer to what Dimitrov was throwing at him, it made me think, are the next gen actually that good? A post-prime injured Cilic was also dismantling Medvedev at Wimbledon, on course for a straight set victory, until he forgot how to play tennis midway through the 3rd set.

I feel like next gen are being made to look better than they actually are thanks to an old/injured big 3, injured Murray, no Wawrinka and masters events where big 3 are barely even playing anymore. Lost gen had to contend with a prime big 3 (or at least prime Djokovic and Nadal), prime Murray and Wawrinka, as well as guys like Berdych, Tsonga, Ferrer etc. They also had to deal with many more injuries. Cilic, Nishikori and Del Potro are more or less permanently injured. Many of the others suffered injuries too.

What do you think?
 
Last edited:
AnOctorokForDinner

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
del Potro & Cilic ain't lost gen.
The rest, ultimately no. Dimitrov had a higher ceiling but felled by his mind and later also body. Raonic stopped mostly by his body, Nishikori by body and mind in equal parts perhaps. The leading nextgen is more durable (so far, at any rate), with comparable peak and a higher average. Zverev has the highest peak of them, higher than the lostgen trio as well, but so far limited by mental weakness too.
Now if you speak of Berdych, Tsonga, Ferrer, the former two do have obviously superior peaks and Berdych was rather consistent as well. Ferrer had the consistency but not peak, still I think it would be close.
 
Yugram

Yugram

Legend
Only peak Zverev has a clear edge over every lost gen.

Peak Dimitrov is better than Peak Medvedev everywhere but indoors. (Indoor Fraud)

Peak Raonic beats Peak Tsitsipas 8 times out of 13 if they play at all 9 Masters and 4 Slams I’d say.

Rublev is a joke
 
Jokervich

Jokervich

Hall of Fame
Yugram said:
Only peak Zverev has a clear edge over every lost gen.

Peak Dimitrov is better than Peak Medvedev everywhere but indoors. (Indoor Fraud)

Peak Raonic beats Peak Tsitsipas 8 times out of 13 if they play at all 9 Masters and 4 Slams I’d say.

Rublev is a joke
Click to expand...
Can't believe I forgot Rublev. Added him. Shows how bad he is if I forgot him.
 
Swingmaster

Swingmaster

Hall of Fame
Jokervich said:
Lost gen is guys like Nishikori, Dimitrov, Raonic, Cilic, PCB, Goffin, Del Potro. Next gen is guys like Zverev, Medvedev, Tsitsipas, Berrettini, Rublev, maybe guys like Shapo and FAA although I don't know if you'd count those as part of the next next gen.

Seeing Dimitrov dismantle Medvedev at Indian Wells and send him into a major meltdown where he had no answer to what Dimitrov was throwing at him, it made me think, are the next gen actually that good? A post-prime injured Cilic was also dismantling Medvedev at Wimbledon, on course for a straight set victory, until he forgot how to play tennis midway through the 3rd set.

I feel like next gen are being made to look better than they actually are thanks to an old/injured big 3, injured Murray, no Wawrinka and masters events where big 3 are barely even playing anymore. Lost gen had to contend with a prime big 3 (or at least prime Djokovic and Nadal), prime Murray and Wawrinka, as well as guys like Berdych, Tsonga, Ferrer etc. They also had to deal with many more injuries. Cilic, Nishikori and Del Potro are more or less permanently injured. Many of the others suffered injuries too.

What do you think?
Click to expand...
What's Thiem? Nogen?
 
Swingmaster

Swingmaster

Hall of Fame
Jokervich said:
I always thought Thiem was more of a transition between the 2 generations. Not quite next gen but not quite lost gen.
Click to expand...
Or his generation sucks. Pouille was supposed to be really good. Sock too. I guess a generation is only three or four years. Transition gen shouldnt be a thing. Transition to what? More players? The same amount of players come out every year.
 
James P

James P

G.O.A.T.
Jokervich said:
Lost gen is guys like Nishikori, Dimitrov, Raonic, Cilic, PCB, Goffin, Del Potro. Next gen is guys like Zverev, Medvedev, Tsitsipas, Berrettini, Rublev, maybe guys like Shapo and FAA although I don't know if you'd count those as part of the next next gen.

Seeing Dimitrov dismantle Medvedev at Indian Wells and send him into a major meltdown where he had no answer to what Dimitrov was throwing at him, it made me think, are the next gen actually that good? A post-prime injured Cilic was also dismantling Medvedev at Wimbledon, on course for a straight set victory, until he forgot how to play tennis midway through the 3rd set.

I feel like next gen are being made to look better than they actually are thanks to an old/injured big 3, injured Murray, no Wawrinka and masters events where big 3 are barely even playing anymore. Lost gen had to contend with a prime big 3 (or at least prime Djokovic and Nadal), prime Murray and Wawrinka, as well as guys like Berdych, Tsonga, Ferrer etc. They also had to deal with many more injuries. Cilic, Nishikori and Del Potro are more or less permanently injured. Many of the others suffered injuries too.

What do you think?
Click to expand...
You're trying to have this both ways. Medvedev was "dismantling" Dimitrov on course for a straight set victory when he "forgot how to play midway through the 2nd set." So in one case, Next Gen bad, in other case when the shoe is on the other foot...still, NextGen bad. I don't even understand the point you're trying to make because it's incoherent. Great thread! :laughing:
 
Jokervich

Jokervich

Hall of Fame
James P said:
You're trying to have this both ways. Medvedev was "dismantling" Dimitrov on course for a straight set victory when he "forgot how to play midway through the 2nd set." So in one case, Next Gen bad, in other case when the shoe is on the other foot...still, NextGen bad. I don't even understand the point you're trying to make because it's incoherent. Great thread! :laughing:
Click to expand...
Medvedev was actually trying really hard though. In the Cilic match, if you watched that match, it's like he just wasn't bothering after the middle of the 3rd set.
 
BGod

BGod

G.O.A.T.
They're definitely about the same. Thiem is part of Lost Gen, Cilic/Delpo as others have said is not, I guess Kei kind of is but in terms of dates not so much.

Tsitsipas and Shap are the only one where if they're on they seem better than the also rans but Thiem was pretty great when he was in top form.

Medvedev and Zverev are worse, just right timing for them. I mean, Medvedev doesn't look better than Cilic to me.
 
D

DjokoLand

Hall of Fame
davced1 said:
What about this match then?
Click to expand...
Hey stop with your sense around here. Dimitrov turns up for the first time in years and people use it as a way to beat the next gen.

Also what is this peak stuff ? Gulbis beat Nadal in the 1st set at Rome 6-1 playing the best tennis I’ve ever seen does that make him better than next gen ?
Tennis is about consistentcy hence why Medvedev is the best next gener now. No point in turning up one week and walking past opponents to go back to a mug the next
 
Fedeonic

Fedeonic

Hall of Fame
Personally, I wouldn't consider Cilic and Delpo as Lost Genners, they're much more closely related to the Nadalovic era than the Lost Gen. Juan won the US Open in 2009 (Fedal era), and Cilic in 2014 (Djoko era)
How I clasify the generations:
-New Balls Please era: born 1979-1983: Federer, Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, Ferrero
-Nadalovic era: born 1984-1988: Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka, Del Potro, Cilic
-Lost Gen era: born 1989-1993: Raonic, Dimitrov, Nishikori, Tomic, Thiem (?)
-Original Next Gen era: born 1994-1998: Zverev, Medvedev, Tsitsipas, Kyrgios, Rublev
-New Next Gen era: born 1999-2003: Shapovalov, Auger-Aliassime, Sinner, Alcaraz, Musetti.
 
S

Sampras-Bruguera 1993

Legend
You can certintly argue it. NextGen lucked out with the Big 3 becoming washed up. Lostgen was stuck with a younger big 3. Dimitrov is showing these guys up. Dimitrov. LOL
 
James P

James P

G.O.A.T.
Jokervich said:
Medvedev was actually trying really hard though. In the Cilic match, if you watched that match, it's like he just wasn't bothering after the middle of the 3rd set.
Click to expand...
thumbsup-jennifer-lawrence.gif
 
Sudacafan

Sudacafan

Bionic Poster
Jokervich said:
Lost gen is guys like Nishikori, Dimitrov, Raonic, Cilic, PCB, Goffin, Del Potro. Next gen is guys like Zverev, Medvedev, Tsitsipas, Berrettini, Rublev, maybe guys like Shapo and FAA although I don't know if you'd count those as part of the next next gen.

Seeing Dimitrov dismantle Medvedev at Indian Wells and send him into a major meltdown where he had no answer to what Dimitrov was throwing at him, it made me think, are the next gen actually that good? A post-prime injured Cilic was also dismantling Medvedev at Wimbledon, on course for a straight set victory, until he forgot how to play tennis midway through the 3rd set.

I feel like next gen are being made to look better than they actually are thanks to an old/injured big 3, injured Murray, no Wawrinka and masters events where big 3 are barely even playing anymore. Lost gen had to contend with a prime big 3 (or at least prime Djokovic and Nadal), prime Murray and Wawrinka, as well as guys like Berdych, Tsonga, Ferrer etc. They also had to deal with many more injuries. Cilic, Nishikori and Del Potro are more or less permanently injured. Many of the others suffered injuries too.

What do you think?
Click to expand...
Del Potro (born 1988) is not lost gen. He is of the same gen of Nadal, Djokovic, Murray and Cilic.
 
El_Yotamo

El_Yotamo

Hall of Fame
Cilic and delpo are not lost gen, they were born in 1988. The only lost-genner born before 1990 is Nishikori and he was born on December 29 1989 (so effectively '90). Thiem is 1993 and therefore lost gen, however his prime did not come until most lost genners (which are two or three years older than him) were relatively washed up. Post 1995 is next gen (with '95 being a transition up to subjective opinion)
 
Halba

Halba

Hall of Fame
El_Yotamo said:
Cilic and delpo are not lost gen, they were born in 1988. The only lost-genner born before 1990 is Nishikori and he was born on December 29 1989 (so effectively '90). Thiem is 1993 and therefore lost gen, however his prime did not come until most lost genners (which are two or three years older than him) were relatively washed up. Post 1995 is next gen (with '95 being a transition up to subjective opinion)
Click to expand...
cilic and del po just lost gen or borderline lost gen atleast. they are over a year younger than djokovic whom was was the cut off.
 
El_Yotamo

El_Yotamo

Hall of Fame
Halba said:
cilic and del po just lost gen or borderline lost gen atleast. they are over a year younger than djokovic whom was was the cut off.
Click to expand...

I have no idea where you got Djokovic being the cutoff from, and honestly it doesn't make much sense either. Cilic and delpo have been at late stages of slams since the late 2000s, while the lost gen were clearly characterized with failing to do anything in the mid-late 2010s which is how we got around to having weak era discussions (post-2015) on here to begin with.

Generations can only make sense if they're taken ~5 years across consistently, that's why the Nadal-Djokovic generation is from '85 to '89, then we get lost gen from '90 to '94(/'95), next gen from '95(/'96)-'99, and finally the nextnextgen/diamond gen from ~'00-'04.

If the lost gen is '88-'95 as you suggest, then you've got players up to nearly eight years apart in the same generation. That's like saying Connors and McEnroe are from the same generation, or that Djokovic is from the same generation as Safin, both clearly ridiculous statements.
 
R

Rogerer

Rookie
Del Potro reaches his peak before djokovic and he is born only a year later:
Fed gen:80-84
Djokodal:85-89
Weak gen:90-94
Weak gen 2:95-99
 
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