NTRP and Mixed League

Tiger77

New User
I'm curious to know if people feel that there should be a separate rating for Mixed? Lots of discussions are around Adult League. But what about Mixed League? Mixed doesn't count toward NTRP (Mixed and Combo). So, there are players who would "managed" their Adult matches to get a Computer rating and then they unleash their skills in Mixed. There are several players in NorCal who are doing it. And we have one player I know who has gone to National in all three mixed divisions, 9.0, 8.0 and 7.0 for the last 3 years. Thanks.
 

innoVAShaun

Legend
10+ years ago, those that only played Mixed Combo used to receive a mixed rating. For example, 3.5M. Not sure if that is the case now.
 
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leech

Semi-Pro
I'm curious to know if people feel that there should be a separate rating for Mixed? Lots of discussions are around Adult League. But what about Mixed League? Mixed doesn't count toward NTRP (Mixed and Combo). So, there are players who would "managed" their Adult matches to get a Computer rating and then they unleash their skills in Mixed. There are several players in NorCal who are doing it. And we have one player I know who has gone to National in all three mixed divisions, 9.0, 8.0 and 7.0 for the last 3 years. Thanks.
Yeah, unsure why the USTA is opting to disregard Mixed, Mixed Combo, and Combo league results in its rating calculation.
 

Creighton

Professional
Yeah, unsure why the USTA is opting to disregard Mixed, Mixed Combo, and Combo league results in its rating calculation.

Because the cheating the OP is seeing is what would happen in the adult leagues if Mixed or Combo counted. People would just throw matches in those two leagues to have more success in the adult league.

The USTA just assumed people were less inclined to cheat in Mixed or that people cared less about being cheated in Mixed than they would feel about getting cheated in adult leagues.
 

TennisOTM

Professional
So, there are players who would "managed" their Adult matches to get a Computer rating and then they unleash their skills in Mixed.

That does seem to be a loophole. Sounds like these players find an Adult league team that will let them play a few matches and tank them, so that their year-end computer rating will be low. If they play 3+ Adult matches then their Mixed league results will be completely ignored in the year-end rating calculation no matter how good they are.

Have you check these players out on Tennisrecord? They're not always too accurate, but they do calculate Mixed ratings (in red) and Adult C-eligible ratings (in black). How extreme is the difference for those players you're seeing? If it's a blatantly obvious difference, then maybe there'd be grounds for filing a grievance for deliberate tanking.
 

jviss

New User
I'm curious to know if people feel that there should be a separate rating for Mixed? Lots of discussions are around Adult League. But what about Mixed League? Mixed doesn't count toward NTRP (Mixed and Combo). So, there are players who would "managed" their Adult matches to get a Computer rating and then they unleash their skills in Mixed. There are several players in NorCal who are doing it. And we have one player I know who has gone to National in all three mixed divisions, 9.0, 8.0 and 7.0 for the last 3 years. Thanks.
Wow - This is a new one. Someone will always come up with a way to cheat the system but this seems very calculated. 3 years in a row to Nationals in 3 different levels and there is nothing USTA can do? Would be curious to see the records in mixed versus their tanked regular seasons.
 

schmke

Legend
There is no perfect solution here.

If all leagues (Mixed, Combo, Adult advancing, Adult other) count for ratings, then players can use one division to tank matches in order to have success as a too low a rated player in another division.

If just Adult advancing leagues count, then players can get a suppressed rating from those matches and go wreak havoc in other divisions.

What is probably needed is to use all matches for ratings, but have something built into the algorithm to ferret out tanking and obviously unexpected results. Perhaps something akin to golf handicaps using your best 10 scores of your last 20. The issue is that one player's worst match that gets thrown out may be their opponent's best match that gets counted, and this can lead to ratings creep so something as simple as that likely won't work.
 

Chalkdust

Professional
There is no perfect solution here.

If all leagues (Mixed, Combo, Adult advancing, Adult other) count for ratings, then players can use one division to tank matches in order to have success as a too low a rated player in another division.

If just Adult advancing leagues count, then players can get a suppressed rating from those matches and go wreak havoc in other divisions.

What is probably needed is to use all matches for ratings, but have something built into the algorithm to ferret out tanking and obviously unexpected results. Perhaps something akin to golf handicaps using your best 10 scores of your last 20. The issue is that one player's worst match that gets thrown out may be their opponent's best match that gets counted, and this can lead to ratings creep so something as simple as that likely won't work.
I don't get the point of having Nationals for leagues that don't count for ratings.
I get that you need Nationals to equalize ratings across sections. But since this does not apply for non-counting leagues, why have Nationals?
It just encourages this kind of manipulation / cheating.
 
I'm curious to know if people feel that there should be a separate rating for Mixed? Lots of discussions are around Adult League. But what about Mixed League? Mixed doesn't count toward NTRP (Mixed and Combo). So, there are players who would "managed" their Adult matches to get a Computer rating and then they unleash their skills in Mixed. There are several players in NorCal who are doing it. And we have one player I know who has gone to National in all three mixed divisions, 9.0, 8.0 and 7.0 for the last 3 years. Thanks.
They made a rule in Dallas preventing people from going to Nationals too often and maybe sectionals, something like not more than 2 years in a row or like not more than 3 teams. Please don't debate what is good or bad, I don't remember the exact rule. But, it was made specifically for just one player who was a bit of a, well, peculiar rec player. He managed his rating obsessively and was playing in Ft. Worth and Dallas (separate sections so to speak) going to sectionals and sometimes nationals often in mixed, combo, tri, 18 plus 40 plus, in both cities. It was amazing and the same time kind of sad considering he was a decent player tanking all the time.

Oh, and more recently they ruled a mixed captain, she couldn't have two teams one in Dallas and one in Ft. Worth, had to choose. So, local USTA does step in sometime, but these cases are really extreme I think. Just people obsessed with team USTA play.
 

Cashman

Hall of Fame
typically a very unbalanced format between the two partners on a team.
why is this the case in USTA/America? I hear people talk on these boards all the time about the massive skill differences between partners on mixed teams

Admittedly I don’t play a lot of mixed, but when I do the partners are generally around the same skill level - generally the only significant difference is physical (i.e. strength/speed). If anything the woman will often be the slightly better player, to try and even out those physical differences

the idea of deliberately putting a very weak female player with a much stronger male player to create very unbalanced teams is entirely foreign to me - I’d have thought your competitions would have rules against it
 
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Tiger77

New User
Here is a record of a 4.0 Male player for the past 5 years. This season (not done yet). He is 7-0 in 7.0; 8-1 in 8.0. & 5-0 in 9.0. He's 3-2 in Adult 40+, 4.0. Is it like this around the country? It is a lot of National trips for one person.


YEAR20212020201920182017TOTALWinning %
MIXED 9.0
18+13-013-18-33-037-4
0.90​
40+3-05-04-16-118-2
0.90​
MIXED 8.0
18+7-08-03-117-135-2
0.95​
40+2-15-16-213-18-134-6
0.85​
MIXED 7.0
18+6-09-110-06-031-1
0.97​
40+5-17-37-03-022-4
0.85​
ADULT
18+1-15-23-21-110-7
0.59​
40+1-38-55-514-13
0.52​
NATIONAL9.0, 8.0, 7.09.0, 8.0, 7.018+/8.0; 40+/7.018+/7.018+/8.0;
 

Creighton

Professional
They made a rule in Dallas preventing people from going to Nationals too often and maybe sectionals, something like not more than 2 years in a row or like not more than 3 teams. Please don't debate what is good or bad, I don't remember the exact rule. But, it was made specifically for just one player who was a bit of a, well, peculiar rec player. He managed his rating obsessively and was playing in Ft. Worth and Dallas (separate sections so to speak) going to sectionals and sometimes nationals often in mixed, combo, tri, 18 plus 40 plus, in both cities. It was amazing and the same time kind of sad considering he was a decent player tanking all the time.

Oh, and more recently they ruled a mixed captain, she couldn't have two teams one in Dallas and one in Ft. Worth, had to choose. So, local USTA does step in sometime, but these cases are really extreme I think. Just people obsessed with team USTA play.

Yeah it takes all the fun out of it if it's the same people going to nationals every year. There really should just be automatic bumps for people who make it to nationals.

I saw a guy the other day that made 3 different nationals and 9 other sectionals in 2021.
 

schmke

Legend
I don't get the point of having Nationals for leagues that don't count for ratings.
I get that you need Nationals to equalize ratings across sections. But since this does not apply for non-counting leagues, why have Nationals?
It just encourages this kind of manipulation / cheating.
To be fair, the USTA does calculate Mixed ratings, they just don't publish the year-end ratings for players unless they only play Mixed.
 

schmke

Legend
why is this the case in USTA/America? I hear people talk on these boards all the time about the massive skill differences between partners on mixed teams

Admittedly I don’t play a lot of mixed, but when I do the partners are generally around the same skill level - generally the only significant difference is physical (i.e. strength/speed). If anything the woman will often be the slightly better player, to try and even out those physical differences

the idea of deliberately putting a very weak female player with a much stronger male player to create very unbalanced teams is entirely foreign to me - I’d have thought your competitions would have rules against it
Alas, no, the USTA makes Mixed a different form of tennis, seemingly by design.

Mixed leagues (at least those that advance to Nationals) are combination leagues on the .0, so 6.0, 7.0, 8.0, etc. The rules state that the sum of players on a court can't exceed the level, so in an 8.0 flight you could pair a 3.5M/4.5W, 4.0M/4.0W, or 4.5M/3.5W.

Given that NTRP levels are not gender neutral, and that generally speaking a woman needs to be 0.5 higher to be roughly equivalent to a man (e.g. a 4.0W and 3.5M are likely similar skill/ability) this means:

3.5M/4.5W - The woman is likely stronger than the man, but reasonably balanced.
4.0M/4.0W - The man is likely stronger than the woman, but arguably still reasonably balanced.
4.5M/3.5W - The man is a LOT stronger than the women (it would take a 5.0W to be roughly similar to the 4.5M and the 3.5W is three levels away from that), certainly not balanced.

The problem is that it turns out that the 4.5M/3.5W pairing tends to be the most successful one, but this requires (generally, not always, don't shoot me for stereotyping) the woman to just park on top of the net guarding the alley and the man covers the rest of the court. In this scenario, as long as the woman can defend their spot, the man will be the strongest player on the court against 4.0M/4.0W or 3.5M/4.5W, and in theory have the advantage.

Now, if you can get a 3.5W that is really a 4.0 in 3.5 clothing and can do more than the stereotype above, the team is even stronger, thus the incentive for the man or woman to have an underrated C rating relative to their ability in Mixed.

Now, if the USTA were to make Mixed on the half level, e.g. 6.5, 7.5, 8.5, etc. and require that players only be a half level apart, e.g. in 8.5 the players must be 4.0 and 4.5, the gap is much smaller and the game that is played resembles normal tennis a whole lot more than the 4.5M/3.5W scenario. But that isn't what we have, so we get the shenanigans we get.
 

schmke

Legend
@schmke
Have you considered running for office in the USTA? You know exactly what is wrong with their adult leagues and are full of good ideas to fix them.
LOL, no.

I submitted a regulations change proposal to fix what is a glaring error regarding standings tie-breakers, it went to committee and discussion and was tabled/denied. If something so clear can't make it through their committees and red tape, I'm not sure that any other good ideas I have would have any shot.
 

PK6

Semi-Pro
USTA is broken!!! They need to get rid of self ratings/3rd set tiebreakers need to have cap on roster size. No reason whatsoever to have 20 players on mixed/summer league roster. That’s just plain stupid. Should be 10 player roster for muxed 12 player roster for summer league. That’s it!!! I can see why others have hatred for this. Money isn’t issue. As a whole need to blow this league up and get with the times. Now I’m not captain anymore I could care less as I’ve decided to quit and focus on losing weight and getting back into bodybuilding shape as tennis doesn’t allow me to. If you want to be great at tennis you must must must treat this as your second job.
 

Tiger77

New User
The majority of players are 4.0s. They have the most teams as well. It's the best division because as a 4.0, you can play 7.0, 8.0, and 9.0 Mixed. I believe you can join the maximum of three teams per division. So, a 4.0 could potentially join 9 teams during the Mixed season. Thus, it would be very difficult for Captains to fill the lineup with 10/12 players on the team.
 

Tiger77

New User
What does USTA want? And what does the US Govt want? And how do you know either?

One of USTA goals is to bring in new members. They did this by allowing 18 and under players to join for free. They eliminated multiple/life-time membership. One of the incentives for new members in Leagues is the possibility of Championship.
 

TennisOTM

Professional
Here is a record of a 4.0 Male player for the past 5 years. This season (not done yet). He is 7-0 in 7.0; 8-1 in 8.0. & 5-0 in 9.0. He's 3-2 in Adult 40+, 4.0.

The W/L records are suspicious but don't prove much. It's possible that he pairs with very good partners in Mixed and plays with weak partners or plays singles in Adult. Comparing his match ratings on Tennisrecord would be stronger evidence.
 

Creighton

Professional
The W/L records are suspicious but don't prove much. It's possible that he pairs with very good partners in Mixed and plays with weak partners or plays singles in Adult. Comparing his match ratings on Tennisrecord would be stronger evidence.

He would have to have a heck of a partner at 9.0 to not be cheating.
 
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jviss

New User
The W/L records are suspicious but don't prove much. It's possible that he pairs with very good partners in Mixed and plays with weak partners or plays singles in Adult. Comparing his match ratings on Tennisrecord would be stronger evidence.

OK – Curiosity got to me. I was thinking maybe it’s his partners too. Looked it up. Pretty easy to find given his record at mixed.
His 9.0 partner has never lost in mixed (ever) and almost always plays with him. She has only played once at 5.0 and was 2-3.
For the other levels of mixed he plays with different partners and wins and his tri-level record is incredibly good too. He went to nationals for that too this year. Believe tri-level doesn’t count for your dynamic rating either (not sure why not though). He only consistently wins in leagues that won’t bump your dynamic rating. It’s obvious. I really hope others don’t start doing this.
 

Creighton

Professional
OK – Curiosity got to me. I was thinking maybe it’s his partners too. Looked it up. Pretty easy to find given his record at mixed.
His 9.0 partner has never lost in mixed (ever) and almost always plays with him. She has only played once at 5.0 and was 2-3.
For the other levels of mixed he plays with different partners and wins and his tri-level record is incredibly good too. He went to nationals for that too this year. Believe tri-level doesn’t count for your dynamic rating either (not sure why not though). He only consistently wins in leagues that won’t bump your dynamic rating. It’s obvious. I really hope others don’t start doing this.

lol this piqued my interest so I went and looked. Jesus, 50-3 last year with his only losses being two at nationals. Then one match where he was tanking and let the tiebreaker slip away.
 

TennisOTM

Professional
Yep I found him too. Interestingly it looks like his 4.0C is still from 2019. He played 58 league matches in 2020 and 2021 and only TWO of them were C-rating-eligible, so he did not get a new computer rating at the end of 2021.

After his last mixed league nationals match in 2021, Tennisrecord had his mixed rating at 4.13. So he almost definitely would now be a 4.5M if not for the fact that his old C-rating is still active.

So his current 4.0C is based on 12 matches he played 3 years ago in 18+ and 40+ Adult leagues. Were those matches tanked? Hard to say. He went 6-6, after which TR had him at 3.56. His TR mixed rating after 2019 was 3.86. Is that enough of a difference to "prove" tanking in the Adult matches? Probably not, especially because the Adult rating was brought down by a couple of bad singles losses, which could just mean he is truly worse at singles.

Also interesting is that his recent TR ratings for Tri-Level Sectionals and Nationals matches were not that high for a 4.0 player: 3.72, 4.01, 3.64, 3.78, 3.82. In his section these matches do not count for year-end ratings, so he had no reason to tank games.

Here are his other TR match ratings from 2022 so far this year:

Mixed 9.0: 3.89, 3.87, 4.13, 3.84
Mixed 8.0: 4.00, 4.05, 4.04
Mixed 7.0: 3.79, 3.85, 3.89, 4.14, 3.72, 3.84
Adult 40+ singles: 3.06
Adult 40+ doubles: 4.09, 3.58, 3.64, 3.86
Combo 8.5: 3.97
Combo 7.5: 4.43, 3.71

He has already played 4 rating-eligible matches, so he will get a new C-rating at end-2022, which looks like it'll be 4.0 again, especially if he plays some more singles.

Is it possible this guy really is just a high-end 4.0 doubles player / weak singles player who happens to play especially well in Mixed for some reason?
 
OK – Curiosity got to me. I was thinking maybe it’s his partners too. Looked it up. Pretty easy to find given his record at mixed.
His 9.0 partner has never lost in mixed (ever) and almost always plays with him. She has only played once at 5.0 and was 2-3.
For the other levels of mixed he plays with different partners and wins and his tri-level record is incredibly good too. He went to nationals for that too this year. Believe tri-level doesn’t count for your dynamic rating either (not sure why not though). He only consistently wins in leagues that won’t bump your dynamic rating. It’s obvious. I really hope others don’t start doing this.
Start? Hate to tell you, this is something a few have done just in Dallas for over 20 years.
 
Is it possible this guy really is just a high-end 4.0 doubles player / weak singles player who happens to play especially well in Mixed for some reason?
Possible, but his choice of league matches to play or not play is also definitely deliberate, he is avoiding leagues strategically.
 

MaxTennis

Professional
Yep I found him too. Interestingly it looks like his 4.0C is still from 2019. He played 58 league matches in 2020 and 2021 and only TWO of them were C-rating-eligible, so he did not get a new computer rating at the end of 2021.

After his last mixed league nationals match in 2021, Tennisrecord had his mixed rating at 4.13. So he almost definitely would now be a 4.5M if not for the fact that his old C-rating is still active.

So his current 4.0C is based on 12 matches he played 3 years ago in 18+ and 40+ Adult leagues. Were those matches tanked? Hard to say. He went 6-6, after which TR had him at 3.56. His TR mixed rating after 2019 was 3.86. Is that enough of a difference to "prove" tanking in the Adult matches? Probably not, especially because the Adult rating was brought down by a couple of bad singles losses, which could just mean he is truly worse at singles.

Also interesting is that his recent TR ratings for Tri-Level Sectionals and Nationals matches were not that high for a 4.0 player: 3.72, 4.01, 3.64, 3.78, 3.82. In his section these matches do not count for year-end ratings, so he had no reason to tank games.

Here are his other TR match ratings from 2022 so far this year:

Mixed 9.0: 3.89, 3.87, 4.13, 3.84
Mixed 8.0: 4.00, 4.05, 4.04
Mixed 7.0: 3.79, 3.85, 3.89, 4.14, 3.72, 3.84
Adult 40+ singles: 3.06
Adult 40+ doubles: 4.09, 3.58, 3.64, 3.86
Combo 8.5: 3.97
Combo 7.5: 4.43, 3.71

He has already played 4 rating-eligible matches, so he will get a new C-rating at end-2022, which looks like it'll be 4.0 again, especially if he plays some more singles.

Is it possible this guy really is just a high-end 4.0 doubles player / weak singles player who happens to play especially well in Mixed for some reason?

I know the guy you're referring to, and while I haven't played him, I think he would struggle at 4.5 and definitely get killed at 5.0. Hence, his reluctance to play up.
 

Tiger77

New User
I know the guy you're referring to, and while I haven't seen him play, I think he would struggle at 4.5 and definitely get killed at 5.0. Hence, his reluctance to play up.

It is possible. But this is precisely why there should be a separate NTRP ratings for Mixed and regular Adult seasons. It's hard enough to go to National in one division. But three? Multiple years? Something is not adding up.
 

jviss

New User
I know the guy you're referring to, and while I haven't played him, I think he would struggle at 4.5 and definitely get killed at 5.0. Hence, his reluctance to play up.
Maybe missing info but that many national trips and tri-level nationals too. Doesn’t seem like reluctance. Looks more like deliberately stacking the deck so he doesn’t lose. High School tennis must have been rough or something.
Do you know if people in his local division get mad at what he’s doing? He’s kind of taking the opportunity to even go to Districts away from players on so many levels.
 

MaxTennis

Professional
Maybe missing info but that many national trips and tri-level nationals too. Doesn’t seem like reluctance. Looks more like deliberately stacking the deck so he doesn’t lose. High School tennis must have been rough or something.
Do you know if people in his local division get mad at what he’s doing? He’s kind of taking the opportunity to even go to Districts away from players on so many levels.

Everyone I know hates him lol. I don't know him that well tbh, but he seems like a massive tool who gets a kick out of dominating in mixed, so yeah...
 
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!<-_->!

Hall of Fame
Is it possible this guy really is just a high-end 4.0 doubles player / weak singles player who happens to play especially well in Mixed for some reason?

Possible. But when the guy is known for recruiting, tryouts, rejecting players for not being good enough by his standards, etc., it is a little easier to assume there's some manipulation going on.
 
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It is possible. But this is precisely why there should be a separate NTRP ratings for Mixed and regular Adult seasons. It's hard enough to go to National in one division. But three? Multiple years? Something is not adding up.
Somehow this jogged my memory, so the Dallas guy went to Nationals around 9 years in a row in more than 2 categories, at least. The limit was something like if you went on 3 teams the previous year, you could only go on 2 teams the next year etc. and never in the same category year after year I guess he could have played on a team out of state (Texas being a 1 state section), but he didn't do this. For sure though, the he was the only player who had previously done anything that would violate the new city wide rule.
 

onehandbh

G.O.A.T.
I sometimes play some mixed doubles or doubles in a social group. We just play 1 set "matches". The strongest guy is usually paired with the lowest level female. He almost always wins regardless of his partner. Not sure what his current level is but his last itf futures (singles) main draw win was about ~8 years ago, so I'm pretty sure he is better than most 5.0s.

This is a fun, social group, so I don't think many are taking it that seriously, though.
 

leech

Semi-Pro
Earlier this year, I noticed a widespread disparity between the TennisRecord estimate of my dynamic rating (3.50) and it's estimate of my Mixed rating (3.83), and wondered if there was anyone I knew with a higher disparity. I couldn't find anyone but didn't invest too much time; just spot checked a few players I suspected were in the same position. The gap has since narrowed a bit (3.63 vs. 3.88), but I think it is accurate to say I'm a much more effective mixed doubles player than vs. two men. (Actually, I think it's more accurate to say I perform better when I'm not the weakest player on the court, regardless of the gender of my partner or opponents.)

Anyone who's seen me play can attest that no one would confuse me for a 4.5 (and may wonder how I'm even a 4.0), but my mixed doubles results say I'm a borderline 4.5 in my best matches. I know it would be too logistically challenging for the USTA to publish different ratings for Adult vs. Mixed play, so in the meantime, captains and players will continue to build teams accordingly (look for "undervalued" mixed dubs players to build teams looking to go deep into postseason).
 
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schmke

Legend
Earlier this year, I noticed a widespread disparity between the TennisRecord estimate of my dynamic rating (3.50) and it's estimate of my Mixed rating (3.83), and wondered if there was anyone I knew with a higher disparity. I couldn't find anyone but didn't invest too much time; just spot checked a few players I suspected were in the same position. The gap has since narrowed a bit (3.63 vs. 3.88), but I think it is accurate to say I'm a much more effective mixed doubles player than vs. two men. (Actually, I think it's more accurate to say I perform better when I'm not the weakest player on the court, regardless of the gender of my partner or opponents.)

Anyone who's seen me play can attest that no one would confuse me for a 4.5 (and may wonder how I'm even a 4.0), but my mixed doubles results say I'm a borderline 4.5 in my best matches. I know it would be too logistically challenging for the USTA to publish different ratings for Adult vs. Mixed play, so in the meantime, captains and players will continue to build teams accordingly (look for "undervalued" mixed dubs players to build teams looking to go deep into postseason).
I do calculate separate Mixed ratings and can do reports using them for players that are interested.

I use these ratings primarily come playoffs when teams are doing scouting of opponents and utilize my team or flight reports, and in this case I offer to do the report using player's Mixed or Adult ratings. For most players, the two ratings are roughly the same, typically within +/- 0.1, but for some there is a noticeable difference. Most of the time it is a situation like @leech where their game or the situations they play in result in better results in Mixed and they really are "better" at that discipline. It goes the other way too, some are worse at Mixed.
 

Moon Shooter

Hall of Fame
This is USTA telling us to not care much about Mixed - just go have some social fun playing what is typically a very unbalanced format between the two partners on a team.

Sort of. But mainly it is USTA refusing to face reality of most of the US. The leagues are not very popular (and by that I mean tennis in general is surging in the USA but league participation is on a decline) and when you further restrict it by gender you will have even fewer possible teams. I have lots of opportunities to play mixed doubles all year long. But very few opportunities to play a male league tennis. It sounds like this guy is from a big tennis area so my reasoning doesn't apply to him but not everyone wants to tank matches. And from my perspective I am sort of bummed that my rating was not effected my my mixed doubles matches.

They should get everyone - men and women on the same rating scale! Put the men on the women's scale. This would also address the huge disparate between someone at the top and bottom of the level on the men's side.

The levels are more narrow on the women's side of things. That is I think many 3.0 women are about the same as 3.0 men but women will not need to play as well to bump up to 3.5 or 4.0 as the men have to play to get bumped to those levels. So many 3.5 men would be 4.0 players if they played with the women and on their rating scale. USTA probably has some idea how big this disparity is at different points in each level and they can just adjust the men's ratings to account for this. So women would not have their rating effected but many men would end up getting bumped up. They may want to increase the top end of the scale to account for this.


I think what Schmke said is correct that there is no way USTA can completely eliminate sandbagging if someone is dead set on doing that. But his recommendation of giving outlier bad results somewhat less weight is a good one that should be seriously considered.

Schmke when you calculate mixed ratings does it work the same for same gender doubles. So I played a 7.0 mixed match with a female 3.5A player against a male 4.0 and a female 3.0. So my partner likely has a dynamic rating of about 3.51 or so. Lets just assume for the sake of argument that tennis record is correct. And the man had dynamic rating of 3.73 and the female had a 2.93. Does USTA do anything to adjust for the difference in men's and women's scales? Or does it just add them up as if they are the same scale and say I played a team with a 6.66 total and my partner has a 3.51 so since the match was close we won 6-4 7-6 I should get a performance rating a bit higher than 3.15. (6.66 minus my partner rating of 3.51 for a tie). Or does the algorithm account for the fact that female ratings may be inflated compared to male ratings. Tennis record said I had a performance rating of 3.28. I am not sure if the extra .13 is because we did win a few more games or if it also gives me a bit more beyond that because I had a higher rated female partner than my male opponent. Do you see what I am asking?
 

zaskar1

Professional
I'm curious to know if people feel that there should be a separate rating for Mixed? Lots of discussions are around Adult League. But what about Mixed League? Mixed doesn't count toward NTRP (Mixed and Combo). So, there are players who would "managed" their Adult matches to get a Computer rating and then they unleash their skills in Mixed. There are several players in NorCal who are doing it. And we have one player I know who has gone to National in all three mixed divisions, 9.0, 8.0 and 7.0 for the last 3 years. Thanks.
T77

it use to be mixed results did not affect your USTA rating, unless all you played was mixed. not sure if things have changed.
i think you are accurate in your assessment, but the "managed" players are usually disqualified in local leagues and nationals.
at least thats what they did in norcal a few years back when my mens team made it out.
we went to sectionals because they reversed at 2-3 loss, to a 3-2 win because they DQ'd a singles guy who tried to manage his win.
usually if there are "sandbaggers" on the teams, the roving officials can spot them, or they have been mentioned
to officials by other teams.
in mixed its pretty obvious to spot the male players, i think its harder to spot the females who are playing down

league would be fun if people would concentrate on playing tennis, and not figuring ways to "cheat" the system

even though i was asked to join some teams at the club when league started up, i declined because i got tired of
these types of shenanigans, and other "poor" behavior brought on by win at any cost attitude.

just my opinion

z
 
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Moon Shooter

Hall of Fame
LOL, no.

I submitted a regulations change proposal to fix what is a glaring error regarding standings tie-breakers, it went to committee and discussion and was tabled/denied. If something so clear can't make it through their committees and red tape, I'm not sure that any other good ideas I have would have any shot.


Do you think the committee even understood the problem? That is the thing. I am not sure anyone's full time job at USTA is to try to design the Adult rec experience to make it as good for as many people as possible.

They have no big picture people that look at how the leagues are doing in different areas/demagraphics and trying to decide what adult rec services would appeal to which areas. Why aren't any younger people playing tennis in this structured setting? Why is participation in the services we offer declining when interest in tennis is surging? What do we offer to areas of the country that are not major tennis hubs and therefore will be unlikely to have teams winning nationals? ETc etc.
 

Moon Shooter

Hall of Fame
Since the men's and women's ratings are completely different then USTA must have to use some sort of different algorithm then they use for same gender matches or the ratings won't work.

And setting up the algorithm may be very difficult because I do not think the differences between levels is the same. I think 3.0 women are often about as strong as 3.0 men. But top 3.5 men tend to be better than top 3.5 women. At 3.75, 4.0, 4.25 etc I am not sure how it varies.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
I’m another player who currently has a significantly higher rating on TR in mixed than for non-mixed.

The reasons in my case are twofold:

1. I believe I’m generally stronger in mixed, as controlling the court from the forecourt as the stronger player is my strength. Most of my matches are without any practice in the week leading up to the match, so my rusty unreliable serve is a weakness. I can still hold serve in mixed by just rolling in soft dinks and charging the net, whereas in men’s matches, especially in doubles, my service games can be problematic.

2. I’ve been gradually improving over the last several years, and last year I only played mixed matches. So my mixed TR rating reflects my recent level, while my non-mixed rating reflects my level from 2-3 years ago, when my most recent non-mixed matches were played.
 
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