Who are the most TALENTED / UNTALENTED pros??

Oh my goodness. That is the funniest thing I have ever read. You are admitting defeat. Awesome. You couldn't handle it, so you give up. Great stuff. You started it and I am ending it. Way to concede.

Back on track here: Rios, Arazi, Gasquet, and Berdych are the most talented guys who never or haven't really gotten it together upstairs. They had or have the games to do some amazing things but they just couldn't pull it together mentally. Gasquet and Berdych might, they are still young yet.

tennispro11 said:

Oh my goodness. That is the funniest thing I have ever read. You are admitting defeat. Awesome. You couldn't handle it, so you give up. Great stuff. You started it and I am ending it. Way to concede.

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hey man, just give it a rest. I'm not getting swindled back into this nonsense, which is what you blatantly tried to do above. i'm sure the rest of the board has had more than enough of you. Feel free to contact me via personal message if you'd like to continue discussing.

tennispro11 said:

Back on track here: Rios, Arazi, Gasquet, and Berdych are the most talented guys who haven't really gotten it together upstairs. They had or have the games to do some amazing things but they just couldn't pull it together mentally. Gasquet and Berdych might, they are still young yet.

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thank you.

Berdych has one big win in his entire career, and that wasn't even at an ATP event. He has zero mental game and never will.

Dimonator133 said:

hey man, just give it a rest. I'm not getting
Berdych has one big win in his entire career, and that wasn't even at an ATP event. He has zero mental game and never will.

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WTH this thing has to do with his talent? Stop changing the topic. It is clearly that you are the idiot that started the nonsense war in this thread.

bangchu said:

WTH this thing has to do with his talent? Stop changing the topic. It is clearly that you are the idiot that started the nonsense war in this thread.

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Thank you bangchu.

Henri Leconte was the most talented player IMO...A true shot maker.Same type of game that Gasquet but more agressive.

Dimonator133 said:

Santoro and Nieminen????!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!


I think we need to spend this entire day defining the words "athlete" and "talent," and the MAYBE after that we can start discussing the two threads in question.

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Nieminen is a great player, thats just my opinion. Ive seen him playing incerdibly well against the top players in the world

Martina Hingis incredibly talented in the court IQ department.

bangchu said:

WTH this thing has to do with his talent? Stop changing the topic. It is clearly that you are the idiot that started the nonsense war in this thread.

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zzzzz. check the records. I'm also the idiot who ended it!


I'm well aware that this is a talent discussion. Berdych has plenty of it, if that's what you want to know, but I'm pretty sure anyone who watches tennis knows that. That's not to say he's the most talented in the game - not even close.

But as we also all know his mental capacity is hindering his talent. I was at his match vs. Roddick and it was on full display there.

kimizz said:

Nieminen is a great player, thats just my opinion. Ive seen him playing incerdibly well against the top players in the world

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Nieminen is an incredibly solid player, but he does not even come close to my mind when thinking about the most talented players. He, like Davy, is a guy who beats everyone he is supposed to beat but never beats anyone he's supposed to lose to. How does that equate to tons of talent / potential?

Dimonator133 said:

Nieminen is an incredibly solid player, but he does not even come close to my mind when thinking about the most talented players. He, like Davy, is a guy who beats everyone he is supposed to beat but never beats anyone he's supposed to lose to. How does that equate to tons of talent / potential?

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How many matches have you seen from nieminen? He actually isnt that solid. Nieminen is like a roller coaster on the court, doing really well and then doing really bad.

But this is besides the point...OP talked about Gasquet. He sayd Gasquet is really talented but struggles in the mental department. I feel the same bout Nieminen. There is definetly talent in this player...its sad to see him choke so often.

Wow - guys - I am really impressed with the amount/quality of the responses. I never expected so many in such a short time.

This is what makes me love this message board - when a really stimulating/interesting tennis discussion gets under way like this one!

Back on the original topic....a point cropped up along the way which I 100% expected to come up - and in all fairness its completely valid point. The point I am referring to is the one about it being unfair to call Roddick an 'untalented' player.

I'd like to share my thoughts on this one. I read an article on these boards the other week about the immense change Babolat rackets had on Roddick's game. According to the article one year Roddick didnt get past the first round in 3 out of 4 junior grand slams. The next year with the Babolat Pure Drive he gets to 3 finals (Maybe these are not the exact figure but this was what I remember).

In my book - if you HAVE to have a certain type of equipment to play well then it shows that you are not actually that talented and you excessively rely on the equipment to do the a lot of work for you. Don't get me wrong - I think Fed currently plays with the racket that is best suited to his game - but I think that even with a 100 square inch frame he'd still be number one....

But I have yet to see an example that is so clear cut as this Roddick/Babolat one. According to the article he literally went from zero to hero in one year with the help of the Pure Drive.

I do actually find Roddick's serve amazing....its sheer power is just awesome.....but for me - having a good serve is nowhere near enough to call someone 'talented'. I would call having a great serve a 'skill'. But when I refer to 'talent' I think of ALL aspects of the game combined.

Moving on - what I like about Roddick is that he has seemingly accepted the fact that he is nowhere near the top in terms of pure talent. He knows exactly what he's good at and also what he's not good at and has therefore worked on his game accordingly. He even openly admitted in an interview about half a year ago that he thinks Murray is way more talented than he'll ever be. All credit to him for saying this because I think its completely true and it takes balls to admit that. But....like we've said already several times.....tennis is not just about pure talent.

Another point that was raised earlier was that 'big servers' in general are not appreciated in this thread. Well - I can definitely see why some would see it this way...but my line of thinking is the following: Many big servers who realise that their serve is a massive weapon place too much emphasis on it and don't develop the rest of their game in accordance. When I think of Rafa or Roger I don't think of a single aspect of their game - I simply think of their OVERALL brilliance. However with many big servers - Roddick, Ljubicic, Guccione etc....I INSTANTLY think of their serve - because I know that for them to win a match their serve is going to play a massive part. Unfortunately I cannot call this type of play (regardless of its effectiveness) pure talent.

Dimonator133 said:

Santoro and Nieminen????!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!

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Santoro talented on using double forehand. Even Bartoli used the same techniques like him.

Gabs011 said:

This topic is one that I have put a little bit of thought to recently.

...

Now on to some players who are highly ranked but are not nearly as nearly as 'talented' as the ones mentioned above. My list is comprised of Roddick, Robredo, Ljubicic, Canas, Chela, Blake, Berdych....and former player - Greg Rusedski. (Please don't take offense at this list - its just personal opinion.)

Don't get me wrong I like watching these guys - they can bring entertainment to the court - but I dont think any of them are as 'gifted' as some other ATP pros.

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Those are all (or have been or were) top ten players right (except Chela? not sure). So if they have no talent, then they must be ferociously hard working (especially Roddick who has been in the Top ten for about 4.5 years now). Have to respect all of those players for that.

Dimonator133 said:

to the rest of the board, i apologize for myself and especially for tennispro11 for getting into this argument, but as I'm sure you understand I'm not about to let tennispro11 get off talking all this tennis and non-tennis BS without paying the price
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thanks.

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It's not your responsibility to apologize for someone else's behavior, especially someone that you don't know. That comment was out of place. I appreciate the apology that you offered for your part in the 'discussion'.

Im amazed at the attention Arazi gets. As far as shotmaking, movement agreed.
I saw a Safin beat Arazi at US Open about 5 years ago, and the difference was size and serve. Safin would come up with big serves when he needed them. And because serving big when you must is still the biggest factor in non-clay men's pro tennis, I give more credit to guys like Safin, Roddick Federer, Sampras.
Hewitt seems to do the most with the least over his career IMO.

I think that Santoro, Henin, Mauresmo, Federer, Andy Murray, and Novak Djokovic are the most talented players on tour. At their best they can hit winners from all over the court, and they are all terrific movers that cover the court and track down balls with tremendous footspeed. Each is unique in their own way. Henin is a better version of Mauresmo. Obviously Mauresmo has a slight edge in volleys and movement in my opinion, but Henin's mentality is phenomonal. Murray and Djokovic are great because they are the 2 best ball strikers on tour. Yes I said it. Federer isn't the best ballstriker on tour. Federer may be the best shotmaker, but by no means the best ball striker. He shanks way to many balls (expecially off the backhand side). Anyway, Novak and Murray are the best ballstrikers. I give the edge to Djokovic because he has more power. Murray is good because he is solid. Mentally I don't think he's ready for the top. So there it is in a nutshell.

Fee said:

Those are all (or have been or were) top ten players right (except Chela? not sure). So if they have no talent, then they must be ferociously hard working (especially Roddick who has been in the Top ten for about 4.5 years now). Have to respect all of those players for that.



It's not your responsibility to apologize for someone else's behavior, especially someone that you don't know. That comment was out of place. I appreciate the apology tha tyou offered for your part in the 'discussion'.

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Fee, what comment was out of place? Please let me know and I will apologize, just not to Dimonator, he is a jerk. Sent me an email telling me I should kill myself. LOL! Over a discussion. My goodness.

MEAC_ALLAMERICAN said:

Fabrice Santoro, Hicham Arazi, Marcelo Rios, Rodger Federer, Martina Hingis, Justine Henin, Leander Paes(Doubles)....

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Santoro looks like a hack. That's not talent, its putting your other hand on the racket and looking stupid.

Talent is Mecir, Mac, and Rios, Edberg. Definitely not Santoro. Commentators say he's a magician, now everyone thinks he's talented. What a load of _____!!!!

Remember how commentators said don't use semi-westerns and swing volleys. They were so wrong. Just like when they say Santoro is a magician.

tennispro11 said:

Fee, what comment was out of place? Please let me know and I will apologize, just not to Dimonator, he is a jerk. Sent me an email telling me I should kill myself. LOL! Over a discussion. My goodness.

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It was out of place for Dimonator to apologize for you. Sorry if I was not clear about that.

Please tell me you are kidding and he did not really use the messaging system at TW to make that comment to you. If he did, perhaps he needs some time off from the forum to re-think that.

Fee said:

It was out of place for Dimonator to apologize for you. Sorry if I was not clear about that.

Please tell me you are kidding and he did not really use the messaging system at TW to make that comment to you. If he did, perhaps he needs some time off from the forum to re-think that.

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Oh I get it now. No I am not kidding. He wanted to keep arguing and then he told me to get a life, or I could just kill myself.

maec allamerican said:

Santoro looks like a hack. That's not talent, its putting your other hand on the racket and looking stupid.

Talent is Mecir, Mac, and Rios, Edberg. Definitely not Santoro. Commentators say he's a magician, now everyone thinks he's talented. What a load of _____!!!!

Remember how commentators said don't use semi-westerns and swing volleys. They were so wrong. Just like when they say Santoro is a magician.

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Who are you??????

kimizz said:

How many matches have you seen from nieminen? He actually isnt that solid. Nieminen is like a roller coaster on the court, doing really well and then doing really bad.

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I've seen plenty of Nieminen; I was even there for what I believe is still the only double-bagel of the year, 6-0, 6-0 over Korolev in Miami.

I don't think either him or Gasquet is really THAT terrible mentally. They're certainly no Lleyton Hewitt, but they're also certainly no Tomas Berdych, among others.

I think Marcelo Rios was also very talented, amazing hands

127mph said:

Talented tennis players:
Roger Federer, Marat Safin, Marcelo Rios, Richard Gasquet, Tomas Berdych, Fernando Verdasco, Hicham Arazi, Andre Agassi, Ilie Nastase.

pretty much in that order for me

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Totally agree with you, but I'd add Guillermo Coria to that list, that guy was a magician out there.

Jarkko Nieminen are you kidding me? He has to be the most overtrained, untalented top 20 player I can think of.

Dimonator133 said:

I've seen plenty of Nieminen; I was even there for what I believe is still the only double-bagel of the year, 6-0, 6-0 over Korolev in Miami.

I don't think either him or Gasquet is really THAT terrible mentally. They're certainly no Lleyton Hewitt, but they're also certainly no Tomas Berdych, among others.

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Talking bout hewitt, did you see the nieminen-lleyton match at RG this year. First set 6-1 to Nieminen. Once again a great set from him, but then he kinda fell apart. The level of tennis in the first set was pretty high from Jarkko. Those kind of sets makes me think of him as a talented player.

Id like to know what is the reference point in this thread? To me everyone in the top 50 are super talented ppl. Then if I happen to give a complement to one player outside top10 it seems a joke I think Nieminen is someone who has great potential but lacks the confidence/mental strength. Hes no federer but must we always talk about him or rafa or agassi?

I'd say Edberg. You could never emulate his style without really being as talented as he was. We've NOT seen anyone like him since.

127mph said:

Talented tennis players:
Roger Federer, Marat Safin, Marcelo Rios, Richard Gasquet, Tomas Berdych, Fernando Verdasco, Hicham Arazi, Andre Agassi, Ilie Nastase.

pretty much in that order for me

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This is just a random list of names. Putting somebody like Verdasco and Berdych in front of Nastase is simply ridiculous.

tuk said:

How would you measure talent then?......so, if Arazi had the best natural ability in the game, why didn't he get better results?...he must have lacked of hability or natural talent in some departments (mental or physical) otherwise he would have been the greatest player ever...
Robredo on the other hand (just as an example) may not SEEM as talented as Arazi but his results show that he is in fact a better player than Arazi ...so he (Robredo) may not have the same degree of talent as Arazi in the "good hands" department but OVERALL....yes!!!... Robredo has more tennis talent than Arazi...and what other way to measure it if not by results?...tennis is about winning matches so if Robredo has had a better career than Arazi then yes he is overall more talented...
now if you were to say that Arazi has more talent in terms of shoot making hability or wathever than Robredo, that's a different story...but (sorry to say it again) OVERALL Robredo is more talented, and what other way to measure it if not by Results?...
but that's just my opinion...

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You need to understand that "BETTER/BEST PLAYER" and "MORE/MOST TALENTED PLAYER" are two entirely different concepts. Stick to the topic...if we approach talent the way you do...we would have to say that the most talented player is always the number one player in the world. The number one player in the world will change multiple times in a period of 5 years. Are the former number one players "loosing their talent" when they drop to no 7 ??! NO they are loosing the will to compete...the desire to win ... the speed...the ability to serve big because of a shoulder injury ... or whatever else. Their TALENT remains the same.

0d1n said:

You need to understand that "BETTER/BEST PLAYER" and "MORE/MOST TALENTED PLAYER" are two entirely different concepts. Stick to the topic...if we approach talent the way you do...we would have to say that the most talented player is always the number one player in the world. The number one player in the world will change multiple times in a period of 5 years. Are the former number one players "loosing their talent" when they drop to no 7 ??! NO they are loosing the will to compete...the desire to win ... the speed...the ability to serve big because of a shoulder injury ... or whatever else. Their TALENT remains the same.

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TALENTED: Federer, Nadal, Murray, Davydenko