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ipodtennispro
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I think I am being too ambitious with this post. I don't want to beat a dead horse but, let's try one more time. Should we demonstrate the entire sequence (whole method) of a stroke or movement instead of the complete stroke, or, a step-by-step method (part method)?
I personally think Neil is right and that you do need to teach in segments initially. Strokes today aren't as simple as "take the racket back and finish towards the target". When you have upper body rotation combined with rotation of the arm and then throw in the takeback to the mix, it isn't really manageable to teach it all as one thing.
I really like that video you have of the "Figure 8" on the forehand. That gives you a great sense of the stroke overall, while Neil's video gives a great example of one segment. Both approaches are needed in my opinion. Great stuff Lee!
ipod,
Starting someone off, I think you need to break it down into steps. It's important for a beginner (and anyone) to have a macro understand of a particular shot, but understanding something and being able to execute it are, of course, two different things.
The video you posted was great. I think it does a good job of combining the two competing approaches you talked about -- "step-by-step" vs "the whole thing" -- in that he starts someone off w/a specific motion (the rainbow) and then adds it to the rest of the shot (body rotation / shoulder turn / etc.).
Very interesting, I have used a similar progression for teaching forehands, but I have never forced a grip like that nor forced that much topspin on a student.
I can see the benefits to using this. I guess one plus side would be that the students would be hitting fewer balls long... but i'm not convinced with this philosophy; it looks as if the "strike zone" would be smaller using this technique compared with a more traditional one. It also appears to produce a greater strain on the body.
It looks interesting, but I would have to do more research before going this way.
maybe I'll experiment with a non-paying friends
I met Neil at a USTPA conference at Stanford where I spoke about the windshield wiper forehand. He came up to me afterwards and told me how he had been teaching the "Maui rainbow" for years with tremendous success, despite the protests of other coaches. I told him he should shoot a video of the way he taught it, because I was very curious how he was teaching it to kids. And I loved how he called it the "Maui Rainbow" So this video is AWESOME!!! I think he is right on, and from what he told me, the results of his kids should be a real indication that he is onto something.
I personally think Neil is right and that you do need to teach in segments initially. Strokes today aren't as simple as "take the racket back and finish towards the target". When you have upper body rotation combined with rotation of the arm and then throw in the takeback to the mix, it isn't really manageable to teach it all as one thing.
I really like that video you have of the "Figure 8" on the forehand. That gives you a great sense of the stroke overall, while Neil's video gives a great example of one segment. Both approaches are needed in my opinion. Great stuff Lee!
Dear Teaching Pros, Coaches & Students
I find this site invaluable for teaching the sport of tennis. I would like anybody's help on "Teaching Progressions". Something that I believe is lacking in our profession. Looking for any suggestions like teaching the "Whole or Part" method. Below is an example of teaching the "part" method for the windshield wiper forehand. Any comments? I do not need videos (however, that would be awesome), an explanation of a progression would be fine. What's you favorite progression and what stroke?
http://iws.punahou.edu/user/lcouillard/NeilArcher.mov
Thank you
Lee
Well, that Maui rainbow is excellent way to teach somebody NOT TO HIT TROUGH
Exactly the opposite of what I am trying to teach my students.
I was hitting whole summer with a D3 player that was thought exactly what was shown on the video.
And he is hitting the ball with his bodyweight going AWAY from the ball.
Terrific foot speed, excellent athleticism, but 20% less power on the forehand.
Regards, Predrag
ipod,
I've sort of already said this, but I think that guy's approach to the windshield wiper is pretty clever. I wouldn't teach that shot right out of the gates, but if someone has a classic forehand I think his progressions would work almost immediately. I guess the trick is figuring out when someone is ready to add another layer to their mechanics.
Predrag,
I understand your concerns. Vic Braden would probably have a cow if he saw that video, however, I still give the pro credit for BREAKING down the windshield wiper forehand into segments. You might be surprised to find out how many people benefited from that progression. The concerns that you have are legitimate. It is hard to flatten out (or, as you say "hit through the ball" when you learn excessive topspin first. But, when it all boils down, most people will never develop a true windshield wiper forehand for whatever reasons. That progression is a result of years coaching and experience, trial and error and experimentation. If you want, you could have the student hit "through" the canvas and make your own adaptation to the progression. Again, thanks for your comments.
but the guy says you shouldn't extend through the ball!!, he's going to produce some pretty weak as$ forehands using that technique.
extend your arm through the ball, look at federer and nadal, you hve to combine forearm rotation, which is what that guy is teaching, with extension
ipod,
We're going to be updating the site all the time. We've got to work through the rest of the fundamentals -- footwork, volleys, etc. -- and then we'll add more sophisticated content. Also putting together some drills for the stuff we've already got up there. What do you think we should add? Thanks.
Will
If the goal is to help the student reach their true tennis "potential" what ever 'progression' you choose to follow must include the key elements of proper stroke mechanics. This is what I call the "Advanced Foundation" (the cornerstone of my book, TENNIS MASTERY). If your progressions include elementst that MUST change for more advanced play, then you will stagnate the player at levels usually far below their potential.
Dave,
Can you post the links here of the articles you mentioned?
Lee
Lee,
The posts are part of TennisOne.com...which, as most know, is a for-fee site, just like Tennisplayer.net and Hi_techtennis.com. The articles "Training an 8-year old" are in the lesson library. (All of which are worth every penny of their service fees!)
Here is one link: http://www.tennisone.com/club/lessons/smith/train3/kyla3.php
I don't know if you will be able to pull it up without a membership. But, nonetheless, the series has generated a lot of interest around the world especially among those who work with kids.
Lee,
The posts are part of TennisOne.com...which, as most know, is a for-fee site, just like Tennisplayer.net and Hi_techtennis.com. The articles "Training an 8-year old" are in the lesson library. (All of which are worth every penny of their service fees!)
Here is one link: http://www.tennisone.com/club/lessons/smith/train3/kyla3.php
I don't know if you will be able to pull it up without a membership. But, nonetheless, the series has generated a lot of interest around the world especially among those who work with kids.
Dave,
Thanks for getting back to me. Yes, I am aware of Tennisone ---I was
hoping to have Jim McLennan speak at our Hawaii USPTA convention last
year but unfortunately, things just didn't work out and he was unable
to make it over..
With regard to your article, unless it's "cutting edge" stuff for kids
I probably would not buy a subscription to Tennisone just for that. I don't
want to deal with the 30-day money back arrangement. I already have
subscriptions Hi tech tennis (thanks Jeff) and most recently Tennisplayer.net, courtesy of the USPTA.
Again, this post is about sharing progressions. Step-by-step
progressions to help introduce as many people to the game of tennis. I
realize to some this is an undaunting task but with everyone's help we can make some head way in improving our teaching methods. I am not trying to give away our profession but instead, giving back.
For your convenience, i have included the video from the first
post:
http://iws.punahou.edu/user/lcouillard/NeilArcher.mov
Would you suggest this progression, or at least give it a try to 5 year olds all the way up to beginning adults?
Thanks,
Lee
Tennismastery,
Why in the WORLD would you put up a link on this thread, or ANY thread on this forum, that REQUIRES a paid membership to access?
Just so you can test the link YOURSELF next time, delete the cookies from your browser (Tools / Internet Options / (Browsing History) Delete / Delete Cookies / Close / OK), close and open a new browser.
Then you can just say:
Lee,
The posts are part of TennisOne.com...which, as most know, is a FOR-FEE site. The articles "Training an 8-year old" are in the lesson library.
I hope that was helpful.
__________________
Dave Smith
Author, TENNIS MASTERY
Wilson Premier Advisory Staff
USPTA
Senior Editor, TennisOne.com
Owner, St. George Tennis Academy
Master Helper
__________________
__________________
__________________
Tennismastery,
Why in the WORLD would you put up a link on this thread, or ANY thread on this forum, that REQUIRES a paid membership to access?
Just so you can test the link YOURSELF next time, delete the cookies from your browser (Tools / Internet Options / (Browsing History) Delete / Delete Cookies / Close / OK), close and open a new browser.
Mountain Ghost,
Well, I did think it was a bit odd too, however, I guess I am just not as straight forward with my responses as you are!! So, thanks for responding. You really can't take this stuff too seriously.
Dave,
Thanks for getting back to me. Yes, I am aware of Tennisone ---I was
hoping to have Jim McLennan speak at our Hawaii USPTA convention last
year but unfortunately, things just didn't work out and he was unable
to make it over..
With regard to your article, unless it's "cutting edge" stuff for kids
I probably would not buy a subscription to Tennisone just for that. I don't
want to deal with the 30-day money back arrangement. I already have
subscriptions Hi tech tennis (thanks Jeff) and most recently Tennisplayer.net, courtesy of the USPTA.
Again, this post is about sharing progressions. Step-by-step
progressions to help introduce as many people to the game of tennis. I
realize to some this is an undaunting task but with everyone's help we can make some head way in improving our teaching methods. I am not trying to give away our profession but instead, giving back.
For your convenience, i have included the video from the first
post:
http://iws.punahou.edu/user/lcouillard/NeilArcher.mov
Would you suggest this progression, or at least give it a try to 5 year olds all the way up to beginning adults?
Thanks,
Lee
Lee, Sorry, I can't open that link to give my opinion on it.
From my 30+ years teaching, my main concern is to provide all beginners, regardless of age, a foundation that does not require specific change for such players to continue advancing. As I mentioned before, evolutionary changes are going to occur for any player; however, I have seen thousands of players being taught rudementary patterns "to get them playing tennis quickly" only to then stagnate literally for life, because such patterns MUST change for the player to advance past what such limiting techniques offer.
My belief is that all pros can contribute ways, tools, methods, etc., to engage in the proper foundation for all players. I have found that regardless of whether we are talking about a 6 year old or a 60 year old beginner, the foundation and the general steps in helping them master the foundation are exactly the same.
I have had 100% success in teaching little kids, many as young as 6, to master the continental grip and proper serve and volley techniques; master topspin and slice groundstrokes, effective overheads and drop shots...and to take these "Advanced Foundation" strokes and methods into competitive play with success as well.
However, I don't recommend beginners jumping right into playing tennis until they have some mastery of intent. That is, they understand what they are trying to attempt in stroke development. This is because all players will resort to using "familiar" strokes, grips, and footwork patterns when left to their own devices with no understanding of what they are working towards.
I prefer to have my players miss the ball than to manufacture ineffective form just to 'hit' the ball. Once my players have developed some mastery of stroke production, then competitive play is initiated...with all players understanding the idea that playing to win is not the goal: playing to use good strokes, grips, and footwork is. The winning takes care of itself.
Imagine if we let beginning piano players use what ever fingering they felt comfortable with. I know for a fact that these players will never master the piano in a way that the piano...and songs for that matter, were intended to be played. Tennis is similar. This is why so many millions of players are stuck at the 3.0 or 3.5 levels even though they continue to play for a lifetime...with no improvement past such levels. Yet, the vast majority of these players have the potential, (athleticism, desire, opportunity, etc.) to play the game at a higher level than they exist at. But, like a piano player who simply plucks away at the keys with his two index fingers, the tennis player who has not either been taught or has studied the game, will have no recourse than to simply 'pluck' at the tennis ball. (In tennis we generally call it "dinking"!)
Anyway, this is my philosophy in teaching, a philiosophy that generated over 500 team wins against fewer than 25 loses in over 28 seasons of coaching high school tennis...and a method that has helped me not just produce dozens of state and nationally ranked players...but a method that has helped me produce hundreds of "skilled" tennis players.
I obviously could include pages of developmental processes...yet, since I have already done this for the 6 in-depth articles on developing junior players (as mentioned on the TennisOne.com site), I don't really want to repeat something that I feel is very valuable for our members on the site.
Do I think it my articles are "cutting edge"? I guess that depends on your perception of what cutting edge is. I have received no less than 50 e-mails from coaches, parents and pros, from around the world, on how valuable a series on discussing, demonstrating, and documenting (as well as seeing the actual training process results in a young player), is to them.
If such a series is not worth the $49 annual membership to such a site as TennisOne is, then I guess you won't know if it is cutting edge enough. To some, it obviously is.
Lee, Sorry, I can't open that link to give my opinion on it.
I just tried it, it works fine. Do you have Quicktime?
It's a FREE download:
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download
I do something similar where I toss the ball up from the side for my novice students. It does reduce a lot of that funky takeback herky-jerkiness. They also seem get used to consistently visualizing the peak point of the toss and the contact point. Another plus is that they generally don't have that service toss complex that some of my more advanced students have ("the toss is the most important part of the serve"...really?) because I guess they figure if I can give them a good ball to hit 99 times out of a hundred with my wrong hand from a spot 4 or 5 feet away...then it can't be that difficult.Thanks for your comments Jeff. Since I have your undivided attention on this post (ha ha) I would be curious to know your thoughts on the serve. Especially with teaching the abbreviated serve as opposed to a full serve motion. It seems counter productive to me as a teaching pro to teach it(abbreviated) but I do use it as a progression. Do you like the straight up take back position?
With the serve, I really like to teach the overhead first. That way you don't have to worry about the toss. You can have a studnet start in the "trophy" position. And then you just work on shoulder rotation (cartwheeling), arm and racket drop, extension, and pronation. They really start to develop the "throwing" mechanics of the motion this way without getting derailed by the toss and exaggerated takeback motions. I find a lot people start the serve off with exaggerated mechanics, and never get a chance to develop the crucial shoulder, arm movements that lead to a big serve.
I do something similar where I toss the ball up from the side for my novice students. It does reduce a lot of that funky takeback herky-jerkiness. They also seem get used to consistently visualizing the peak point of the toss and the contact point. Another plus is that they generally don't have that service toss complex that some of my more advanced students have ("the toss is the most important part of the serve"...really?) because I guess they figure if I can give them a good ball to hit 99 times out of a hundred with my wrong hand from a spot 4 or 5 feet away...then it can't be that difficult.
Lee, Sorry, I can't open that link to give my opinion on it.
I just tried it, it works fine. Do you have Quicktime?
It's a FREE download:
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download
Lee, unfortunately, it still doesn't come up on my computer. (Yes, I have Quicktime...) let me change to another computer and see if will work.
Thanks
As I make reference in my book and articles, I start all players with the volley for some very specific reasons:
1. You can teach a large group the volley with excellent results. (I actually did teach 72 people on one court the volley, among other strokes, during a charity event a year ago.)
2. You teach the players to develop a feel for the continental grip from the start, (obviously, the precurser to not just a good volley but the serve, overhead and two-handed backhand.).
3. The player first learns to "find the ball" without having to learn to time a swing element as they would with groundies
4. The volley teaches a short stroke first. This definetely is easier to learn the volley instead of learning a full swinging type groundstroke first and then having to learn to shorten the stroke.
5. You can work with partners in what I call "toss and block" drills, creating an opportunity for players to literally hit hundreds of balls in a short period of time. (One player tosses, the other player blocks a forehand or backhand volley.)
6. Toss and block drills helps the tossing player learn to toss to place, the precurser to understanding how to aim; the tossing player also learns to track and catch the ball, very similar to the simple volley...so, both the volley player and the tosser gain important learning elements during a drill.
(I have seen the traditional pro teach 5 to 10 kids with the typical line-em-up, have them hit a ball (usually groundstroke), go to the back of the line routine...only to have the kids hit about 12 balls in 15 minutes in this manner. Not very productive or much fun!)
7. You can teach more advanced patterns with the toss and block volley drills: a) alternate the tosses; b) speed up the tosses; c) include half volleys; d) include high or low volleys; etc.
We also teach the angle volley as the first volley sequence learned when we do move from the toss and block drills to pro-fed drills. This teaches kids to use finesse instead of the often-perceived needed power of volleying deep to the baseline. (Which usually results in the players feeling like they have to swing more.)
All of these drills are discussed in my articles (and shown with video clips) in the series I mentioned earlier on training an 8-year old.
I actually like a little thread drift because it gives discussions a little life. OK...back to our regular programming.Trinity TC,
I got side tracked a bit on this post. This site is very addicting, but at the same time it can be very frustrating. Thanks for getting it back on track.
As I make reference in my book and articles, I start all players with the volley for some very specific reasons:
1. You can teach a large group the volley with excellent results. (I actually did teach 72 people on one court the volley, among other strokes, during a charity event a year ago.)
2. You teach the players to develop a feel for the continental grip from the start, (obviously, the precurser to not just a good volley but the serve, overhead and two-handed backhand.).
3. The player first learns to "find the ball" without having to learn to time a swing element as they would with groundies
4. The volley teaches a short stroke first. This definetely is easier to learn the volley instead of learning a full swinging type groundstroke first and then having to learn to shorten the stroke.
5. You can work with partners in what I call "toss and block" drills, creating an opportunity for players to literally hit hundreds of balls in a short period of time. (One player tosses, the other player blocks a forehand or backhand volley.)
6. Toss and block drills helps the tossing player learn to toss to place, the precurser to understanding how to aim; the tossing player also learns to track and catch the ball, very similar to the simple volley...so, both the volley player and the tosser gain important learning elements during a drill.
(I have seen the traditional pro teach 5 to 10 kids with the typical line-em-up, have them hit a ball (usually groundstroke), go to the back of the line routine...only to have the kids hit about 12 balls in 15 minutes in this manner. Not very productive or much fun!)
7. You can teach more advanced patterns with the toss and block volley drills: a) alternate the tosses; b) speed up the tosses; c) include half volleys; d) include high or low volleys; etc.
We also teach the angle volley as the first volley sequence learned when we do move from the toss and block drills to pro-fed drills. This teaches kids to use finesse instead of the often-perceived needed power of volleying deep to the baseline. (Which usually results in the players feeling like they have to swing more.)
All of these drills are discussed in my articles (and shown with video clips) in the series I mentioned earlier on training an 8-year old.
Mountain Ghost,
I went to your web site but I can't get off the main page and into the site. Is there a certain browser I need?
What is virtual strokes solutions? I am curious.
Lee