I think the 3.0 National Champs had 4 players get bumped 1.0. Maybe the USTA is trying to send a message... What that message is, I don't know. If you win Nationals we will punish your team??
I think the 3.0 National Champs had 4 players get bumped 1.0. Maybe the USTA is trying to send a message... What that message is, I don't know. If you win Nationals we will punish your team??
Someone sent out the ratings showing that most of the team which won Nationals at 3.5 this year were mostly self-raters. Can someone repost this info? Thanks.
It looks like three guys got bumped a whole to 4.5!!
We did, however, have several players that participated at the national level and still kept their 3.5 ratings in 2007. I'm assuming that was because they lost their matches during the nationals?. I had always heard that if you actually play a match at the national championships then you got bumped up but that turned out to be bad info. Ben/San Jose Ca.
The only significance of being a National benchmark player is that your rating is weighted more heavily by your play in the playoffs and also that it is used as a way to level out the NTRP levels across the country, by comparing all the league players against the benchmark players either directly or indirectly.
Maybe the USTA is trying to send a message... What that message is, I don't know. If you win Nationals we will punish your team??
Isn't getting moved up a reward, not a punishment?
Not when you get moved a full 1.0 when you are not ready. I know a couple of players that went to Nationals and got a 1.0 bump and they could not find a team to play on the next year. Also, they were not ready for a 1.0 bump. When they do play at their new level they are getting beaten pretty bad.
So what? You learn more from losing, then you do from winning....
And they couldnt appeal down even one rating? They must of really clobbered some guys if that was the case. Even if they are getting "beaten badly", I doubt that it's not competitive.
A national rating is also visually verified. There are verifiers watching the matches, especially the final four matches, and they determine your rating based on your computer rating from all of your match results and then those ratings get tweaked based on the visual verifications. I'm pretty sure that the full level bumps were largely based on visual verifications in an effort to combat the overall trend in the computer system of excessively low computer ratings.
When you play a match at nationals, you cannot appeal your rating.
I guess I do not know your definition of competitive but these players are getting beat 6-0, 6-0 (or similar scores). You do not learn more from a 6-0, 6-0 loss than a 6-4, 7-5 win. Getting your brains beaten is not a learning experience. On the flip side, those players will get moved down at ESR and probably at the end of the year.
This website offers the clearest description that I have seen of how the national benchmark ratings are calculated.
According to Bob Greene USPTA, USTA Certified Verifier & Chairman of USTA NTRP Computer Sub-Committee:
Annually each Section of the USTA will send up to twenty teams at all levels and genders to USA League National Championship Events. Those teams will play against each other in four flights of four or five teams in each flight. The draw is done at random. One event may be Florida, Texas, New England and Hawaii ... the next Eastern, Southern, ******* and Northern California. Before and during these matches, no less than four of the most experienced NTRP Verifiers from different areas of the country will research the players match result history, multi-year rating history and player profile information. They will then observe the players competing against several different teams over a period of three days. All match results are entered into the NTRP Computer during the events. The Verifiers are observing and are more specifically looking for lopsided match results, disparity of level between doubles partners and player improvement over the course of a season. The players who emerge from their respective flights to the semifinal and final rounds are given "absolute ratings". That rating is a number that is static for the purpose of comparison against other players. These "Benchmark Ratings" are entered into the NTRP Computer and the computer program is run calculating ratings for all of the players who competed at the event. Although the NTRP Computer has an excellent track record of being correct, the National Verifiers makes a few adjustments based on reasons stated above. All of these players are National Benchmarks and their Ratings are deemed not changeable by regulation. These National Benchmark Ratings are entered into the NTRP Computer and will filter down in each respective USTA Section and all players competing in NTRP audited and regulated venues will receive a rating if they played two or more matches. The primary goal and purpose of this methodology is to create and maintain uniformity in ratings on a nationwide basis. No matter what the picture appears to be from the bottom looking up, it is painted from the top down.
I believe that the full 1.0 bumps are made in an effort to keep the system from getting too distorted because of fast-improving players, which makes sense. I started playing tennis a year ago and started the season as a legitimate, strong 3.0. I ended the season as a strong 3.5. I got bumped up a full 1.0 after 3.0 nationals. I am currently getting my *ss handed to me on a regular basis by 4.0 players. It's not fun, but I understand why they bumped the fast-improving players: they don't want us screwing up the whole computer system and making it less fun for everyone else. All in all, I think that the people organizing the rating system do an admirable job with a difficult task.
line up with anyone's recent experience?Over 85% of all player self-ratings on their profiles are verified as being correct at these clinics and verified tournaments
http://www.texas.usta.com/usaleaguetennis/fullstory.sps?iNewsid=479787&itype=1014&icategoryid=206
look at how proud Bob Bender is to be a 3.0 chamion! Congratulations!
I have a feeling that the information from Bob Greene is a few years out of date. He sites in multiple places that verifiers are used at rating clinics and tournaments. I don't believe this is the case. As an example does this:
line up with anyone's recent experience?
Yea, he captained a 3.0 team that won in 04, winning the final match 5-0. His senior team (which he captained) also won that year. Then, in '05, his 3.5 team finished fourth at nationals. (note: his 3.0 senior team was also fourth this year at nationals). How does he do it??!!!
Oh maybe because...
Berco Neiman, Joseph N. Hevey, Ulrich H. Lorscheider and Wyatt D. Sharp got bumped a whole pint to 4.0 this year from his 3.0 team.
Was Backboard on this team (He won a 3.0 national championship this year)? If so - who is he? Interesting that he hasn't weighed in on this thread.
Probally because the thread title states that we are talking about the sandbaggers who won 3.5, not the sandbaggers who won 3.0.
Who is Bob Bender.. doesn't somebodyhave to be crowned champion?
I am guessing you know him.
Yea, he captained a 3.0 team that won in 04, winning the final match 5-0. His senior team (which he captained) also won that year. Then, in '05, his 3.5 team finished fourth at nationals. (note: his 3.0 senior team was also fourth this year at nationals). How does he do it??!!!
Oh maybe because...
Berco Neiman, Joseph N. Hevey, Ulrich H. Lorscheider and Wyatt D. Sharp got bumped a whole pint to 4.0 this year from his 3.0 team.
reminds me of the episode of Seinfeld where Kramer's inspiring everyone with how he rises to the top of a dojo, and then when Elaine sees him, she finds out he's sparring against 11 year olds!
Each year he holds team tryouts for new players.
Isn't it a bit stupid when the team that wins get three guys bumped up two levels. That is blatently cheating. SoCal should be DQ'd and the team from Intermountain should be the National champions.
Isn't it a bit stupid when the team that wins get three guys bumped up two levels. That is blatently cheating. SoCal should be DQ'd and the team from Intermountain should be the National champions.
How many of these players are self-rated? If the players are all computer rated players, fine. But to hold a tryout and then rate people is what most teams have to do in order to compete at Nationals on the lower levels. That method is generally considered a common form of sand-bagging for these lower levels of tennis.
My guess is most were self-rated.
I don;t think that's sandbagging. I think it is building a strong team and then driving guys hard to improve. Also, I can also tell you I never had so much fun on a tennis team.
If you can honestly say that you held tryouts with guys who had never played other than recreationally and developed the skills and the experience all in one season.. then congratulations. If your team was built otherwise - then is an amateur championship at the lowest level of tennis worth it?
You really didn't answer the question. How would one know that they had high-end 3.0 players if they were all self-rated? The real question is whether or not they had prior experience before self-rating. If the answer is 'yes' then the case is weak for self-rating as a 3.0.
I played on Backboard's team. Very few of our players had any measurable tennis experience. We had some really good athletes but limited with tennis experience. Both singles players were very good soccer players but relatively new to tennis. One had only played tennis for one year (but he was young and could run). Both could push (and push and push and push) the ball and run alot of balls down. Both have no pace pancake serves (if you would like to call them a serve) but they are both tenacious competitors. Anybody who believes we were a bunch of high level ringers are simply wrong. We were a competitive group but not highly skilled. If you counted every ace the combined team had during the year... you would not have take more than one glove off to count them.
Few of us had any measurable experience and I had not touched a racket in almost 20 years (I wasn't any good when I put it down 20 years ago anyway) but I did have some experience (not anything noteworthy but I had played some when I was young). I dropped 30 pounds (at a doctor's request to lose weight) because I played five times per week. From playing so much, I improved dramatically and most players on our team played at least 4 times per week; as a result the improved too. We played together and really developed a chemistry. Those who think we sandbagged are wrong; most here will not believe that but I am unable to change that perception. Had anyone watched us from beginning to end, they would have seen two distinctly different products. We were a vastly improved product in July from when we started practicing together in the prior October.
At Nationals I can assure you that we were a well liked team. In the finals, everybody not from Puerto Rico was cheering for us. All of our opponents thanked us for being such good sports and how we were one of the few teams that called the lines fair. Our opponents in the finals did not receive such great reviews from their opponents.
I will duck back out now and return to being a lurker.
I'm still a little suspicious about the January 2008 join date and the 1 post - but hey I'll bite.
You won the National Championship for ~3.05, as much as you want to feel good about that, fame always comes with a price.
Hah I didn't know one became famous after winning 3.0 nationals. I would have never known or cared about a 3.0 team if it weren't for the repeated threads on how they are not cheating or calling everybody losers and jealous, ect who thinks they are sandbaggers.
Feel free to be suspicious (yet another thing I cannot change) but I lurk around here quite a bit but I am not one to post messages. I joined and I posted. It would not allow me to post until I joined. At this point I think I will return to lurking.