Slice serve for a 2nd serve
- Thread starter Rickson
- Start date
Almost every player I know hits some type of slice second serve at least sometimes. I notice that the old school players often hit a flatter slice with mostly side spin (toss about 2 feet forward and slightly to the right side (for a righty)) This ball seems to dip mostly due to gravity on the slower, fastly spinning ball.
The young players seem to hit more topspin slice, which comes from the slice serve tossed closer to the body to produce a more 5 to 10 o'clock spin the causes the ball to dip into the court. This is a very safe serve because it is dipping agressively into the court.
I think that lefties, like Nadal and McEnroe, use the slice more because it is harder to track that slower, bending serve to the left, whereas a slice to the right often puts it right into most righty's wheelhouse for return.
The young players seem to hit more topspin slice, which comes from the slice serve tossed closer to the body to produce a more 5 to 10 o'clock spin the causes the ball to dip into the court. This is a very safe serve because it is dipping agressively into the court.
I think that lefties, like Nadal and McEnroe, use the slice more because it is harder to track that slower, bending serve to the left, whereas a slice to the right often puts it right into most righty's wheelhouse for return.
montx
Professional
Topspin slice is a hybrid between pure topsin 6 to 12 and pure slice 3-9, so topsin slice IS NOT 5 to 10, its 7:30 to 1:30 in its purest sense. Twist is 9 to 3 in its purest sense.
But above all things is finding a consistent serve, my flat is sometimes more reliable than my kick, but im at that stage trying to prove the axiom that kick is reliable.
It takes time and effort to develop consistency. It seems true about kick but I find it a little hard at this stage. Its all about doing things at an expert level, which Im not there yet.
But above all things is finding a consistent serve, my flat is sometimes more reliable than my kick, but im at that stage trying to prove the axiom that kick is reliable.
It takes time and effort to develop consistency. It seems true about kick but I find it a little hard at this stage. Its all about doing things at an expert level, which Im not there yet.
Djokovicfan4life
Legend
At the moment I can only do slice second serves. I have pretty good success with it. I only double faulted once in 4 service games the last time I played. 
Slice may be 9-3 strike for lefty, opposite for righty. More realistic for higher pace shots is a 8-2R/4-10L. Twist is not going to 9-3 either. More like 5-11R, 7-1L (+-30 minutes for the extremely flexible). Anything more is pretty difficult.
Topspinny serves have an easier time staying in the court due to the obvious downward force. If not done with a decent placement and kick, they can be very easy to return if they sit like ducks.
Topspinny serves have an easier time staying in the court due to the obvious downward force. If not done with a decent placement and kick, they can be very easy to return if they sit like ducks.
Djokovicfan4life
Legend
Don't really know what clocks you guys are using, but how the heck could a righty swing from 5 to 10? You'd have to serve underhanded to do that. :lol:
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Andres
G.O.A.T.
A topspin slice serve is not a kickserve. It's a slice serve with extra topspin. Check Goran Ivanisevic for a visual.
nousername
Rookie
you (and all other posters) have assumed the axis of rotation is in the plane of the baseline, which it hardly ever is. it is actually a somewhat complicated 3d situation, with a combination of the axis of rotation AND the initial trajectory direction of the ball. this is esp important for the twist serve. twist is the situation in which a serve with a fair amount of topspin has an axis of rotation out of plane with the plane of the baseline. your description of a twist is completely wrong, twist is not inverse slice spin. no lefty should ever attempt to get 9-3 spin, and no righty should attempt 3-9 spin ... unless you really want to mess up your arm.
in general:
topspin - rotation about horizontal axis
slice - rotation about vertical axis
twist - axis of rotation out of plane with baseline
fact:
nearly every serve has a component of topspin, slice, and twist. it's all a matter of degree, so in general serves are characterized by the most prominent component:
"topspin/kick serve": mostly topspin, little slice, little twist
"slice serve": mostly slice spin, little topspin, little twist
"twist serve": topspin/kick serve with a fair amount of twist (for those wondering a slice serve can have twist, but due to the near vertical axis of rotation, twist on a slice has little to no effect. twist is only meaningful on a heavily topspin serve.)
"flat serve": high velocity, but still a good amount of topspin
rule:
overhand serves *should* not ever have underspin or inverse slice.
.....
and to the OP: a slice is a good choice for a second serve ... heck sampras threw in all-out flats as 2nd sometimes.
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nousername
Rookie
right, but a righty serve from 7-1 is certainly mostly topspin, and definitely a kick.
Andres
G.O.A.T.
Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Topspin-slice is hit from... around 4:30 to 10:30, while a kick is more like from 7 to 1.
nousername
Rookie
but, a righty cannot and SHOULD NOT ever hit from 4:30 - 10:30, it's basically impossible. topspin slice for a righty is more like 7:30 - 1:30.
Andres
G.O.A.T.
No, 7:30 to 1:30 is for a kickserve/twist. A topspin-slice is not a kickserve.
4:30 to 10:30 is actually easier than 7 to 1. It's a normal 3 to 9 slice serve, with a more pronunciated low to high swing.
Djokovicfan4life
Legend
Yes, and swinging left to right diagonally would be 7:30 to 1:30. I think what confused you was the slice serve. Unless you're hitting reverse slice a slice serve should be struck from 9 to 3, not 3 to 9.
boojay
Hall of Fame
You're lookin' at the clock backwards, buddy.
Djokovicfan4life
Legend
Arrgggg, Boojay, I can't stop watching your "Epic Video"!
Andres
G.O.A.T.
Sorry, I meant from right to left for a righty server.
A slice serve for a righty is hit from 3 to 9. From right to left.
nousername
Rookie
nope. you are mistake about twist serves. the "clock face" descriptions of serve spin have nothing to due with twist (read my first post in this thread).
a righty serve always starts out between 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock. anything outside of that range is impossible, or have a high risk of injury.
i think you just need to rethink you serve motion, or maybe we are just looking at the "clock face" from a different perspective. i am assuming the clock-face is seen from someone behind the server, standing at the back fence.
hollywood9826
Hall of Fame
i thnk you got your numbers mixed up it woudl be 9 (left) to 3 (right) for a right handed server.
for a lefty like goran it would be 3 to 9 or 5 to 11 ish for the topspin slice.
Djokovicfan4life
Legend
boojay
Hall of Fame
Uhhhh, sorry? Heh.
Djokovicfan4life
Legend
boojay
Hall of Fame
Dude, I gotta see your serve. I will bow down before you if you're right-handed and can serve 3 to 9 without killing yourself. I know righties who can do a reverse slice, but they don't swing 3 to 9.
boojay
Hall of Fame
Haha, I meant that as a compliment, really. You're a solid player.
I know, thanks
. I meant for it to be fun to watch. Glad you like it.
Andres
G.O.A.T.
I understand the spins: For a pure righty slice serve, the ball travels from 9 to 3. That's anticlockwise, seen from the top, right? That's clear.
But to hit it that way, the arm doesn't travel from 9 to 3, but from 3 to 9.
To make the ball spin from 9 to 3, you have to it it at 3 o'clock, not at 9 o'clock. If you hit the ball at 9 o'clock, the ball travels from 3 to 9, that is clockwise.
The ball spins from 9 to 3, but it must be struck from 3 to 9. That's what I'm talking about.
But to hit it that way, the arm doesn't travel from 9 to 3, but from 3 to 9.
To make the ball spin from 9 to 3, you have to it it at 3 o'clock, not at 9 o'clock. If you hit the ball at 9 o'clock, the ball travels from 3 to 9, that is clockwise.
The ball spins from 9 to 3, but it must be struck from 3 to 9. That's what I'm talking about.
Djokovicfan4life
Legend
You've still got it completely backwards, but whatever floats your boat, I guess.
I'm sorry, but that is not clear to me. If you picture your clock face as seen from the top, then how do you explain a topspin serve?
I've always understood the clock as being viewed from the fence behind you, as it would hang on a wall above your head (or wherever your toss is). I REALLY think we're all trying to say the same thing here. Let's clear up the clock issue and all go home happily
Andres
G.O.A.T.
Yeah, probably. I just hit the fuzzy ball. Apparently, not that good with numbersI'm sorry, but that is not clear to me. If you picture your clock face as seen from the top, then how do you explain a topspin serve?
I've always understood the clock as being viewed from the fence behind you, as it would hang on a wall above your head (or wherever your toss is). I REALLY think we're all trying to say the same thing here. Let's clear up the clock issue and all go home happily
Rickson, if you can keep your slice serve low and un-attackable, without double-faulting, go for it. I still think you should develop your kickserve.
boojay
Hall of Fame
I'm sure you know what you're talking about, but it should be apparent to you that you have the rest of us confused. Your reference point of "the clock" is definitely the issue here. Most of us don't visualize looking down at the clock from above, but rather, the clock face is hanging on a wall (usually above our heads).
Rickson, if you are a lefty then I would definitely think that a good lefty slider is an excellent 2nd serve choice. In some of my Usta matches I played against lefties who would do nothing but extreme slice serveson the AD court. It was really effective in forcing me to hit slice returns which they could capitalize on. I personally think that all lefties should have a solid slice serve in their repertoire to keep their opponents planted to the AD corner. I've rarely seen or played against a lefty that had a good topspin or twist serve, so it wouldn't hurt to keep one of those in your bag to keep your opponents guessing, and its always weird the first time a lefty twist serve kicks out high to the forehand if your always used to getting them to your backhand.
Djokovicfan4life
Legend
I'm pretty sure Rickson's a righty though.
JRstriker12
Hall of Fame
I'm a righty - my slice starts at 9 and travels to 3. You would break your shoulder doing it the other way.
Path of Racket compared to clock face ================>>>>
Path of Racket compared to clock face ================>>>>
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JRstriker12
Hall of Fame
http://www.tennisserver.com/turbo/turbo_98_3.html
-Andres, are you talking about contact point?
- My swing goes from 9 to 3 but the contact point is at 3 o'clock for a righty - meaning you are hitting the outside of the ball.
"Slice serves require that you hit the outside of the ball (3 o'clock position for righties and 9 o'clock position for lefties)"
-Andres, are you talking about contact point?
- My swing goes from 9 to 3 but the contact point is at 3 o'clock for a righty - meaning you are hitting the outside of the ball.
"Slice serves require that you hit the outside of the ball (3 o'clock position for righties and 9 o'clock position for lefties)"
Rickson
G.O.A.T.
A slice is not 3 to 9 for a righty. That would be one crazy looking slice.
boojay
Hall of Fame
LuckyR
Legend
Kick serves are more consistant than slices but many better players tee off on them with their returns so kick serves can be a liability. Slice serves are th opposite, a bit less consistant but harder to blast a return off of.
