flyer
Hall of Fame
This is a post on another thread and I liked it and would like to see people's reactions and opinions...
The only way to beat Nadal, beat him at his own game
- Thread starter flyer
- Start date
edberg505
Legend
I think there is a guy that does this and his name is called Ferrer, look what happens to him on clay.
ACE of Hearts
Bionic Poster
I dont know, i think he needs to be aggresive.Last year he was 1 out of 17 on break points.I always have said that he needs to get his first serves in and serve outwide.He needs to open up the court more.
ACE of Hearts
Bionic Poster
Fed's hiring of Higueras is puzzling.I wonder what his gameplan to Fed will be.
flyer
Hall of Fame
Your right guys he will probably still lose, but he will certainly lose if he sticks to the same "be agressive" game plan, clay is not about aggression, its about patients and the more agressive you are the more you play right into Nadal's hands, he uses agression against you...
my_forehand
Professional
If you're waiting for Nadal to hit the net, you haveta install a volleyball net.
ACE of Hearts
Bionic Poster
Nadal leaves alot of short balls, Fed needs to punish him when he does that.People have said that he should use the slice but he doesnt use it as much.
ACE of Hearts
Bionic Poster
I would like to see cooler weather like Hamburg.That makes the ball heavier.The last 2 years have been hot.
Mick
Legend
Nadal said he didn't think that he could make mistakes today and he was very dominant on the court.
This contradicts with what you wrote above.
(nadal - djokovic)
"The level of the two first sets was very good today. Almost perfect," Nadal said. So I'm happy about how I played today. It was my best match at Roland Garros. I was very dominant on the court. I could throw the ball anywhere I wanted. I was dominating both on my forehand and backhand, and I didn't have to think that I could make mistakes. That was key."
flyer
Hall of Fame
Well if Nadal plays "Almost perfect," it doesn't matter what Federer's strategy is he will not win, he needs Nadal to have a bad day if he wants any chance....
with that said Djokovic wasn't concentrating on defense and making him hit that extra shot, he was trying to play agressive and dictate play, which plays right into Nadals hands, so I don't see any contradiction, if anything this proves my points that agressive play (against Nadal) only helps Nadal in the end
edberg505
Legend
That's not true. If you try to play safe, Nadal will just hit you off the court. But if Federer is the aggressor and his shots are on well then I sure pitty the guy on the other side of the net even if his name is Nadal.
good point, if you play defensive against Nadal on any surface he will start hitting the short angled cross court forehands out wide that throw the other player way off the court where they cannot reach the shot or returns at the expense of being way out of position.
flyer
Hall of Fame
You can pitty Nadal all you want but the fact is that Nadal has used Federer's aggression (and your pitty that apparently arises from it) to 3 FO titles, so I certainly don't pitty Nadal if Federer just sticks to the same game plan and hopes this time will somehow be different....
all im saying is the aggression game plan has not worked and is completely against the rationality of clay court tennis, so the rational thing to do would be to try something new and play clay court tennis, how does that not make sense?.....seems like a no brainer to me
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flyer
Hall of Fame
good points, Nadal is very agressive at times, but his game is still based on his defense, he gets into positions were he can comfortably dictate play gradually throughout a point and uses defense and his starting point to do so, so defense is what allows him to be agressive
I think the key to make Nadal feel at least a bit uncomfortable is to force him to come to the net more. Though he improved his netplay too, I consider it still his biggest "weakness". You could see that in the 3rd set yesterday against Joker. You won't win matches by letting this guy run left and right behind the baseline. He's so comfortable and strong there. It's what he loves to do and what he does best.
So if I were Federer I would short slice much much more, especially those high bouncing top spin balls going to his backhand although the slice isn't the most effective stroke on clay. Sure, Nadal will punish some of them once in a while, but at least he would have something new to think about and would be forced to leave his comfort zone.
So if I were Federer I would short slice much much more, especially those high bouncing top spin balls going to his backhand although the slice isn't the most effective stroke on clay. Sure, Nadal will punish some of them once in a while, but at least he would have something new to think about and would be forced to leave his comfort zone.
carlos djackal
Professional
I Agree That Clay Is Advantageous For Players Who Have The Patience To Slug It Out But In Nadal-federer Case I Doubt If It Will Work For Fed, I've Seen Nadal Is More Patient Than Fed And I Don't Think Fed Can Outslug Nadal On Clay, To Beat Nadal Fed Should Bring His Serve To Top Level And His Backhand Should Land At The Baseline Otherwise Nadal Would Feast On It......s&v On The 1st Serve......
edberg505
Legend
Forehand_Punisher
Rookie
Trying to out Nadal Nadal is just silly. Federer needs to do what he does best. And do it even better. That means serving well and staying on the aggressive.
This is going to be a tough match no matter how well Federer plays. To borrow a line from Rocky IV, if I were his coach, I would tell Federer, "This is our match. You start, and you don't stop! All your strength! All your power! All your love! Everything you've got! To win, you have to knock him out! Punch until you can't punch no more."
"You make sure the world remembers, forever, the day you whipped Nadal's ass!"
Then Federer punches his locker and says, "Yeah!!!"
Well...maybe not...but it should be a heck of a match either way.
This is going to be a tough match no matter how well Federer plays. To borrow a line from Rocky IV, if I were his coach, I would tell Federer, "This is our match. You start, and you don't stop! All your strength! All your power! All your love! Everything you've got! To win, you have to knock him out! Punch until you can't punch no more."
"You make sure the world remembers, forever, the day you whipped Nadal's ass!"
Then Federer punches his locker and says, "Yeah!!!"
Well...maybe not...but it should be a heck of a match either way.
superman1
Legend
This is that exact opposite of how you beat Nadal.
You beat him by being super aggressive, like Djokovic was towards the end of the match to get back on serve and get to a tiebreak. He was blasting winners from everywhere and trying to get to net often. That's what Federer will have to do.
It's still probably not enough, but it's better than rallying from the baseline with him. That's a lost cause.
You beat him by being super aggressive, like Djokovic was towards the end of the match to get back on serve and get to a tiebreak. He was blasting winners from everywhere and trying to get to net often. That's what Federer will have to do.
It's still probably not enough, but it's better than rallying from the baseline with him. That's a lost cause.
edberg505
Legend
Hahaha, I love this post. Bravo. Rocky 4 is one of my favourite movies and while reading this I could actually picture the bald guy telling Rocky this. Hahaha.
luckyguy
Rookie
like hamburg last year
based on their hamburg finals last year, federer was able to defeat nadal by being aggressive and not giving good angles to nadal (nadal is very deadly in angles). fed was just constantly returning the balls to nadal's feet with good depth and with little angle to work with. also federer has to vary his tactics, if fed would just continously attack nadal's backhand, he'll be screwed again, because nadal's backhand was never a weakness...
based on their hamburg finals last year, federer was able to defeat nadal by being aggressive and not giving good angles to nadal (nadal is very deadly in angles). fed was just constantly returning the balls to nadal's feet with good depth and with little angle to work with. also federer has to vary his tactics, if fed would just continously attack nadal's backhand, he'll be screwed again, because nadal's backhand was never a weakness...
luckyguy
Rookie
attack the forehand
look at the strategy employed by novak and fed to nadal..they were continously attacking the backhand, waiting for him to make an error on that side, nadal was also just returning the ball to their backhand side, this would go on until nadal unleashes a crosscourt backhand..BOOM instant winner...
but if you look how nalbandian and ferrer defeated nadal (at least on hardcourt), they were attacking his forehand side...ferrer using his inside out and nalbandian with his outside backhand...nadal usually loses this way..getting defeated at his forehand side..
look at the strategy employed by novak and fed to nadal..they were continously attacking the backhand, waiting for him to make an error on that side, nadal was also just returning the ball to their backhand side, this would go on until nadal unleashes a crosscourt backhand..BOOM instant winner...
but if you look how nalbandian and ferrer defeated nadal (at least on hardcourt), they were attacking his forehand side...ferrer using his inside out and nalbandian with his outside backhand...nadal usually loses this way..getting defeated at his forehand side..
luckyboy1300
Hall of Fame
anyone who tries to out-nadal nadal will just be blown off the court, imo. nadal's defence is simply out of this world, more like a wall at the other side of the net. fed needs to hit consistent aggressive shots to breach the wall.
The balls in your court.
Banned
Brad Gilbert disagrees:
He says that using a grinders strategy to beat a grinder is pure suicide.
You cannot play a grinders game better than a grinder because they are better at it than you ever will be. They do this all the time and are used to it while you are new to it.
Dont believe that ...just take a look at Vilas vs. Borg.
Instead brad feels you need to get to the net to beat a grinder....a.k.a a "runner". He also says : "Dont let a runner run".
By that one should not hit into the corners but rather in the middle of the court or when on the run hit behind him.
He says that using a grinders strategy to beat a grinder is pure suicide.
You cannot play a grinders game better than a grinder because they are better at it than you ever will be. They do this all the time and are used to it while you are new to it.
Dont believe that ...just take a look at Vilas vs. Borg.
Instead brad feels you need to get to the net to beat a grinder....a.k.a a "runner". He also says : "Dont let a runner run".
By that one should not hit into the corners but rather in the middle of the court or when on the run hit behind him.
AAAA
Hall of Fame
Years ago I saw Henman take out lesser clay courters by bringing them into the net, and never engaging in many rallies with them. Henman didn't give them any rhythm and kept them off balance and out of their comfort zones. He used those tactics brilliantly against Coria in the semi-final for a time but then everything went Coria's way when he probably thought about how great he was playing, about how he was destroying Coria and the possibility of winning a major on his worst surface and everything the press back home would say about it. In short Henman started thinking about the adulation he'd get from winning and that was his mistake.
Federer needs to play to his strengths which is hit great shots use variety, use the whole court. He needs to believe and hope if he plays his game it will be enough to win.
Federer needs to play to his strengths which is hit great shots use variety, use the whole court. He needs to believe and hope if he plays his game it will be enough to win.
If we look at the people who have posted wins over Nadal, most of them seem to have a few things in common. Mainly they hit hard, relatively flat and get the ball through the court quickly. Obviously this is tougher to do on a slow court like clay, and Nadal needs to be a little off (or hurt or tired) for it to work, but the key seems to be taking time away from him.
Another thing to note is that while Federer has been SAYING that he's playing Nadal more aggressively, the actual points don't always bear this out. The sets he's won against Rafa were often played aggressively, but he also has long patches of playing fairly passively and waiting to counterpunch. In general, he seems to do this more against many opponents than he did a few years ago. Playing aggressively against Rafa isn't just a matter of Fed coming to net or hitting hard, it's a matter of taking the ball on the rise, stepping into the court and dictating play rather than reacting to what is thrown at him.
Another thing to note is that while Federer has been SAYING that he's playing Nadal more aggressively, the actual points don't always bear this out. The sets he's won against Rafa were often played aggressively, but he also has long patches of playing fairly passively and waiting to counterpunch. In general, he seems to do this more against many opponents than he did a few years ago. Playing aggressively against Rafa isn't just a matter of Fed coming to net or hitting hard, it's a matter of taking the ball on the rise, stepping into the court and dictating play rather than reacting to what is thrown at him.
HE certainly nadals Nadal, but he doesn't OUT-Nadal him.
I think it';s obvious that if you can do it, you should.. nobody is that good at nadalling though. I think the way Roger played the first 6 games in Hamburg is the way to force an opening. You can't keep that up forever but on the day, you just need that bit of form more to close out the opening set. Than you also need extreme luck and hit every relatively easy ball you get inside the court. You can't make an unforced error, and have to serve like 70% first serves all above 200kph. Than you stand a chance.
flyer
Hall of Fame
Being agressive is not how you beat Nadal, when has being agressive troubled Nadalin the least at the FO, Djokovic still lost the set, let alone the match in strait sets, as for its still probably not being enough, it was not enough the last 3 years and Nadal is even better now so surly it is not enough...
Any result in Hamburg is irrelevant in comparison to the FO because Hamburg results have never been an indication of either FO form or results, this is because of the difference in the clay and conditions (let alone the fact that Nadal was physically and mentally exhausted)
Just like he broke the wall last year, and the year before that, and 3 years ago? Why do you people think that this time will be any different?
Federer also is capable of great defense, and clay court tennis is based on defense, so he needs to use that as a starting point and were Nadal down...hitting hard agressive shots only paying right into Nadal's hands
wyutani
Hall of Fame
what fed needs to do is bringnadal to the net. hie weakess is his net game, why not attak it?
DashaandSafin
Hall of Fame
Nadal is the best in the world at what he does, its incomparable. Federer needs to do what he did in Hamburg. Go for his shots. I dont think you understand how hard it is to outgrind Nadal. When's the last time Nadal lost to a grinder, a person like Ferrer? Not in my memory.
I agree, trying to outhit Nadal from the baseline is a losing proposition. I don't think s/v would work either - too slow a surface too good a player. I'm thinking mixing it up a lot is the only way to go. High 1st serve % is an absolute must against Nadal on clay. I wouldn't go for aces on clay against this guy. Take off a bit and get it in with good placement. I don't think anybody can out grind this guy on clay. For that matter, not many can hope to out grind him - period. He's the ultimate grinder at the moment.
West Coast Ace
G.O.A.T.
LOL! Flyer, you're on a roll. Next you'll be telling Venus Williams how to win Wimby is by moonballing and S&V every other point!
Patience and 50 cents will get you a bad cup of coffee - and an *ss whooping against Rafa on clay.
No one - at least no one with a brain - is saying he should just kamikazi run to the net on every point. But if he's content to trade groundies he will not win a set. The Nadal cc FH to his BH will destroy him.
Patience and 50 cents will get you a bad cup of coffee - and an *ss whooping against Rafa on clay.
No one - at least no one with a brain - is saying he should just kamikazi run to the net on every point. But if he's content to trade groundies he will not win a set. The Nadal cc FH to his BH will destroy him.
TheTruth
G.O.A.T.
The Hamburg result is laughable, when you consider Nadal played in 4 finals that month. He was tired, folks. After that first set all Fed had to do was get the ball over the net.
Although it was comical, the one poster with the Rocky IV scene probably had it right. Fed will have to go for it, and not lose his nerve. Djokovic is, in my opinion, more aggressive than Fed, but the only reason he came back in that last set was because Nadal relaxed, seeing that the match was easier than he had imagined. In other words, Nadal got caught napping, but woke up in time.
This is the French Open. Both players want it bad, but only one player will win. None of us know how their nerves will play out tomorrow. Anything can happen, at any time.
May the best man on the day win. Me? I'm hoping for a four-peat. Go Rafa!
Although it was comical, the one poster with the Rocky IV scene probably had it right. Fed will have to go for it, and not lose his nerve. Djokovic is, in my opinion, more aggressive than Fed, but the only reason he came back in that last set was because Nadal relaxed, seeing that the match was easier than he had imagined. In other words, Nadal got caught napping, but woke up in time.
This is the French Open. Both players want it bad, but only one player will win. None of us know how their nerves will play out tomorrow. Anything can happen, at any time.
May the best man on the day win. Me? I'm hoping for a four-peat. Go Rafa!
Nadal_Freak
Banned
Being aggressive against Nadal is a lot easier when the ball isn't jumping above your shoulder. Federer has to combine heavy topspin with aggressive play. Keep hitting high to Nadal's backhand until Nadal gives a short ball. Than you can be aggressive. On lower bouncing clay, that style won't be effective as the ball won't get high enough on Nadal. The flat hitting Blake style game would work in that case. Fed's serve has got to be on as well.
M
Morrissey
Guest
People now are just throwing ideas out there to see which one sticks and then they come off as a genius.
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Thor
Professional
Exactly.
The thought of Federer able to outgrind pathetic is laughable,that is not the way to go.
M
Morrissey
Guest
If Nadal is healthy while moving and hitting like this there´s no one that can beat him on clay. Maybe the next big clay prodigy in some years. AT this point I think we´ve heard endless ¨strategies¨ to beat Nadal on clay and none of them are enough to do it. Hitting to the backhand, no. Hitting to the forehand, no. Outgrind him, no. Blast him off the court, impossible. Come to net, no. Nothing has worked, and when you add the best of 5 sets factor it´s impossible to sustain that strategy on clay and with Nadal´s passing shots, defense, angles, depth and spin from the back. He really is the perfect clay court player.
ACE of Hearts
Bionic Poster
It amazes me to see these Nadal-****s think that its nearly impossible to beat this guy on clay.Thats why the game is played.Sure Nadal has won and is undefeated but streaks do come to an end.Maybe it wont come tomorrow but to think its nearly impossible is a joke in itself.
Thor
Professional
Not impossible to beat him - impossible to outgrind him,and this is what the OP is about
Nadal_Freak
Banned
I'll have to disagree at RG. 99.9% sure Nadal wins when he is fresh. Mathieu was the closest ever to beating Nadal and he got 1 set.
