Old GOAT article, must read.

Moose Malloy

G.O.A.T.
in the Gerulaitis-John Lloyd match in Kooyong in December 1977, Vitas lost two sets to Lloyd who suffered from cramps but however Gerulaitis won in the end because he was the strongest on the court

You mean Gerulaitis had cramps, not Lloyd, correct?

I have the 1st 3 1/2 sets of this match on dvd, at the beginning of the 4th set Vitas stopped moving, he looked like he had a leg injury. I'm very curious how he ended up winning this match, it looked like a hopeless situation for him as of 3-2 in the 4th(that's when my recording ends)
 

CyBorg

Legend
Agassi, if memory serves, pulled out of the 93 and 94 Aussies due to injuries, so to say that the Australian only becomes a true grand slam event in 1995 is faulty. Agassi doesn't decide what is or isn't a true grand slam event, especially when he's not playing due to being hurt.

The Australian went to a 128-man draw in 1988 and had most of the best players there. Lendl, for example, skipped the French in both 1990 and 1991, but played the Australian in both those years. Scheduling, of course, has much to do with that but it's important to acknowledge that all majors have some stars missing from time-to-time. Agassi also skipped some Wimbledons early in his career.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
GOAT is simply subjective. Nothing more, nothing less.

It more depends on the person making the claim than the players in question. That alone determines what factors we "should" use or accomplishments we "should" consider.

The argumentative strategy is always the same:

1) Come to your conclusion on who is GOAT.

2) Find facts to support (1).

3) Use the deceptive argumentative tactics of emphasis and omission.
 
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JoshDragon

Hall of Fame
Here is the end of my previous quote :

Last thing that I've learnt in studying tennis competition history. All the events, all the matches count so we can't judge any player by only looking at his performances in majors. So to say that Federer is better than Tilden just because the Swiss has under his belt, 13 so-called majors whereas Tilden would have only 10 or 11 (which I completely disagree because in my opinion, Tilden had at least 20 majors including some Davis Cup trophies, the true World Champs of the time) is very restrictive not to say wrong.

I hope now that before giving statements about ancient players you, JoshDragon, will have studied some of their records because in particular in Tilden's case I think you have very much to learn.

This is quite possibly the longest post I've ever seen. It might have been easier to just recommend Tilden's profile on Wikipedia. ;)

I've been over this topic many, many times with many, many different posters on tennis warehouse forums but basically I think that it's ridiculous to say that a player from 80 years ago is better or greater than the guys today. Look at how much the game has changed in the last 18 years and that's just during my life-time. Since the first Wimbledon there have been countless changes in tennis ranging from playing styles, to the importance of the tournaments, for example Wembly, the US Pro and French Pro were all important tournaments for professional tennis players to win (before the open era.) Today those tournaments aren't even around anymore, so it's true the importance of some of the tournaments has changed.

What has changed even more is the fitness level, the technology, and the skill level required to win major tournaments. Let's use Borg in this case, Nadal is often compared to Borg because of their similar playing styles and accomplishments. Borg played until he was 26 and yet I don't recall him ever developing tendinitis. Nadal has had Tendinitis in both of his knees since he was 21. Now, tendinitis is generally caused by injury or overusing a joint. The overuse that is required from Nadal just to stay at the top of the game as a defensive baseliner. Nadal, is not alone Gael Monfils also has had problems with knee injuries and both of these guys are young, only 22. Four years younger than Borg was when he retired and remember Borg was also a baseliner, who won the French Open 6 times and Wimbledon 5 times, and never developed tendinitis. Now this means one of two things. Either Nadal, Monfils and other players with joint problems aren't taking the time necessary to warm up before their matches which is resulting in their getting injured or the game is so much more physical today that it's resulting in the players becoming injured more easily. Well, we know it can't be the first one, Nadal always wraps up his knees as a precaution every time he goes out on the court (even for a practice session) so it looks like it's the second choice. More is required physically of the players today.

So if the players today have to be fitter in order to accomplish the same things that the former players did ie winning the majors. It would seem logical that the players today are stronger, faster, and all-around better than the guys who came before them.

If Bill Tilden was taken from his prime time period and Federer from his and they were allowed to play one five set match with the technology that they had during their primes, Federer, would slaughter Tilden, based not only on technology but also based on fitness.

I do study players from different time periods and it's difficult to express all of my knowledge in one post. Tilden's, career was fairly long and suming up all of the events during one time period in one post is next to impossible.
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
What has changed even more is the fitness level, the technology, and the skill level required to win major tournaments. Let's use Borg in this case, Nadal is often compared to Borg because of their similar playing styles and accomplishments. Borg played until he was 26 and yet I don't recall him ever developing tendinitis. Nadal has had Tendinitis in both of his knees since he was 21. Now, tendinitis is generally caused by injury or overusing a joint. The overuse that is required from Nadal just to stay at the top of the game as a defensive baseliner. Nadal, is not alone Gael Monfils also has had problems with knee injuries and both of these guys are young, only 22. Four years younger than Borg was when he retired and remember Borg was also a baseliner, who won the French Open 6 times and Wimbledon 5 times, and never developed tendinitis. Now this means one of two things. Either Nadal, Monfils and other players with joint problems aren't taking the time necessary to warm up before their matches which is resulting in their getting injured or the game is so much more physical today that it's resulting in the players becoming injured more easily. Well, we know it can't be the first one, Nadal always wraps up his knees as a precaution every time he goes out on the court (even for a practice session) so it looks like it's the second choice. More is required physically of the players today.

So if the players today have to be fitter in order to accomplish the same things that the former players did ie winning the majors. It would seem logical that the players today are stronger, faster, and all-around better than the guys who came before them.

This is truly your most absurd argument yet. You might consider taking a logic course.

The conclusion suggested by your premises is that the player who gets injured the most at the youngest age is the "all-around better" player. Following this logic, Monfils is better than Federer. After all, Fed has had the least injuries of any current player--he must be the weakest and therefore worst.

Good one.
 

JoshDragon

Hall of Fame
This is truly your most absurd argument yet. You might consider taking a logic course.

The conclusion suggested by your premises is that the player who gets injured the most at the youngest age is the "all-around better" player. Following this logic, Monfils is better than Federer. After all, Fed has had the least injuries of any current player--he must be the weakest and therefore worst.

Good one.

Nope. You aren't following my logic at all. I specifically said in my post defensive baseliner. Federer, is not a defensive baseliner. That's why I was comparing Borg to Nadal, not Federer (an offensive all-court player) to Monfils.

It seems that you don't understand what I'm trying to say.
 
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You mean Gerulaitis had cramps, not Lloyd, correct?

I have the 1st 3 1/2 sets of this match on dvd, at the beginning of the 4th set Vitas stopped moving, he looked like he had a leg injury. I'm very curious how he ended up winning this match, it looked like a hopeless situation for him as of 3-2 in the 4th(that's when my recording ends)

Good remark. You make me understand that perhaps my memory is mistaken. I will have a look at the account.
 

JoshDragon

Hall of Fame
You have absolutely no credibility on these boards, but keep going if you insist.

I noticed in your response that you couldn't dispute the facts I presented, so you chose instead to say that I have no credibility but you haven't been able to provide any evidence to prove that I'm wrong.

If you'd like to discuss the points of my argument, that's fine but if you just want to make statements like: "I have no credibility on these boards" then don't bother. I already know that's not true.
 
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hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Nope. You aren't following my logic at all. I specifically said in my post defensive baseliner. Federer, is not a defensive baseliner. That's why I was comparing Borg to Nadal, not Federer (an offensive all-court player) to Monfils.

It seems that you don't understand what I'm trying to say.


Fed is too often a defensive baseliner in the last several years. And if you watch Borg at Wimbledon, you will see that he came to the net a surprising number of times. On grass he was not strictly a defensive baseliner.

Are you saying that Nadal is better than Borg, because Borg had few injuries?

So if the players today have to be fitter in order to accomplish the same things that the former players did ie winning the majors. It would seem logical that the players today are stronger, faster, and all-around better than the guys who came before them.
I thought you were using fitness levels today to suggest that today's players are in general better than players of the past. I did not realize that it was valid to compare Nadal to Borg, but not valid to compare Monfils to Federer.

So it is okay to use fitness levels and injuries to conclude that today's players are better, but not okay to use fitness levels and injuries to find one of today's players better than another of today's players? Most interesting.

Allow me to utilize reductio ad absurdem: x must be a better player because he gets hurt more.

You are right: I am not following your 'logic' at all.
 
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JoshDragon

Hall of Fame
Fed is too often a defensive baseliner in the last several years. And if you watch Borg at Wimbledon, you will see that he came to the net a surprising number of times. On grass he was not strictly a defensive baseliner.

Are you saying that Nadal is better than Borg, because Borg had few injuries?

I thought you were using fitness levels today to suggest that today's players are in general better than players of the past. I did not realize that it was valid to compare Nadal to Borg, but not valid to compare Monfils to Federer.

So it is okay to use fitness levels and injuries to conclude that today's players are better, but not okay to use fitness levels and injuries to find one of today's players better than another of today's players? Most interesting.

Allow me to utilize reductio ad absurdem: x must be a better player because he gets hurt more.

You are right: I am not following your 'logic' at all.

I can only compare players with the same or similar playing styles to each other. It would be pointless to compare Nadal to McEnroe because their playing styles are completely different. McEnroe, was much less likely to have injuries because he was a S&V and usually played short points, Nadal's is a defensive baseliner and usually has to play longer points in order to win a match. Nadal, has to physically give more than McEnroe did in order to win a match. Borg, played more of a similar style to Nadal, that's why I can compare him to Nadal or Monfils.

Federer, has never been a defensive baseliner, he's more of a baseliner now than he was maybe 4 years ago but he is still an offensive player. Federer, rallies behind the baseline and when he see's an opportunity to hit a winner he takes it.
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
I can only compare players with the same or similar playing styles to each other. It would be pointless to compare Nadal to McEnroe because their playing styles are completely different. McEnroe, was much less likely to have injuries because he was a S&V and usually played short points, Nadal's is a defensive baseliner and usually has to play longer points in order to win a match. Nadal, has to physically give more than McEnroe did in order to win a match. Borg, played more of a similar style to Nadal, that's why I can compare him to Nadal or Monfils.

Federer, has never been a defensive baseliner, he's more of a baseliner now than he was maybe 4 years ago but he is still an offensive player. Federer, rallies behind the baseline and when he see's an opportunity to hit a winner he takes it.

So, back to your original point: are you saying that Nadal is better than Borg because Nadal plays a more injurious game?

Can we compare Federer to Laver, because they both play(ed) more of an all-court game?

Is the one that gets injured earlier and more often better?

(This seems like a rather peripheral issue to me.)
 

urban

Legend
Apropos injuries. Thats not in all ways dependable on the playing style. Federer has a light moving style, but his motion on the slice wide serve puts strain on his back. Edberg, also a light mover, had a more extreme service stance and motion and was prone to back injuries. Nobody would have thought, as he came steaming into the picture, that Connors would last long. But he did.
 
This is quite possibly the longest post I've ever seen. It might have been easier to just recommend Tilden's profile on Wikipedia. ;)

I've been over this topic many, many times with many, many different posters on tennis warehouse forums but basically I think that it's ridiculous to say that a player from 80 years ago is better or greater than the guys today. Look at how much the game has changed in the last 18 years and that's just during my life-time. Since the first Wimbledon there have been countless changes in tennis ranging from playing styles, to the importance of the tournaments, for example Wembly, the US Pro and French Pro were all important tournaments for professional tennis players to win (before the open era.) Today those tournaments aren't even around anymore, so it's true the importance of some of the tournaments has changed.

What has changed even more is the fitness level, the technology, and the skill level required to win major tournaments. Let's use Borg in this case, Nadal is often compared to Borg because of their similar playing styles and accomplishments. Borg played until he was 26 and yet I don't recall him ever developing tendinitis. Nadal has had Tendinitis in both of his knees since he was 21. Now, tendinitis is generally caused by injury or overusing a joint. The overuse that is required from Nadal just to stay at the top of the game as a defensive baseliner. Nadal, is not alone Gael Monfils also has had problems with knee injuries and both of these guys are young, only 22. Four years younger than Borg was when he retired and remember Borg was also a baseliner, who won the French Open 6 times and Wimbledon 5 times, and never developed tendinitis. Now this means one of two things. Either Nadal, Monfils and other players with joint problems aren't taking the time necessary to warm up before their matches which is resulting in their getting injured or the game is so much more physical today that it's resulting in the players becoming injured more easily. Well, we know it can't be the first one, Nadal always wraps up his knees as a precaution every time he goes out on the court (even for a practice session) so it looks like it's the second choice. More is required physically of the players today.

So if the players today have to be fitter in order to accomplish the same things that the former players did ie winning the majors. It would seem logical that the players today are stronger, faster, and all-around better than the guys who came before them.

If Bill Tilden was taken from his prime time period and Federer from his and they were allowed to play one five set match with the technology that they had during their primes, Federer, would slaughter Tilden, based not only on technology but also based on fitness.

I do study players from different time periods and it's difficult to express all of my knowledge in one post. Tilden's, career was fairly long and suming up all of the events during one time period in one post is next to impossible.

Hello,
It has been a long time since I've looked at the Tilden's Wikipedia article but I don't think there are so precise elements in it than those I've given in that quote. One or two years ago there was almost nothing about his pro career and I just added a few lines about them in the article. I'm not sure that other Tilden's pro feats have been written since my edit.

I don't agree with you when you compare greats.
Of course there is no comparison between the strain supported by modern players and ancient players. Even the great Australians in the 50's didn't do weight lifting exercises. Rosewall explained that the only one who did that sometimes was Hoad but at the time there was no scientific approach of those exercises and Rosewall said that Hoad made them without any knowledge and possibly hurt his back forever. Hoad being very athletic accepted every muscular challenge but doing badly those exercises (bad positions, ...) ruined his health and physical potential.

But the question isn't that one.
The true question is : what would have done Tilden if he had been born 88 years later against Federer or what would have done Federer against Tilden if he had been born 88 years earlier ?
In his era Tilden made all his possible to find anything in order to be better than the others. At that time there was no video, almost no coaching, no physical training, no scientific approach of every stroke motion, no psychological training, ... as now so it is evident that Tilden couldn't be as effective as a modern player. But with the small knowledges of his time he tried to improve his game. Perry thought that Tilden was a greater player than Budge because on one hand when Budge has reached his peak in the late 30s-early 40s he didn't try to improve his game because he thought that it was sufficient to beat the others and on the other hand Tilden after WWII that is when he was about 55 years old he was still trying to improve his forehand. So Tilden was a perfectionist. And in his time he was ahead of his generation in every department.

Do you know that this is him who organized almost all the US pro circuit in 46 ? There was about 30 tournaments (which was enormous at the time) with (I don't exactly remember) 17 tournaments giving ranking points. Open tennis would have arrived in the late 40's (and not in the late 60's) if Tilden hadn't been put in jail in 1947 (then all the US Pro circuit collapsed). Tilden had sometimes bad behaviours but he was very intelligent and always fought the establishment and always tried to better his game. Had he been born today I think (of course I can't be sure) he would have fought against the dominance of the hard surfaces which are the main responsibles of modern players' injuries. John Alexander, a good player of the 70's, claims that it should be clearly indicated that hard courts are dangerous for health as cigarettes are. Tilden would have possibly pushed world tennis to find more comfortable surfaces for the players. I've learnt yesterday that from 2009 all the ATP indoor tournaments would be played on hard surfaces and not on carpet : a) once again surfaces speedness will be reduced so the players will play longer and b) the surfaces will be tougher. a) and b) will make the players hurt themselves even more. I close the bracket.

All this to say that Tilden was always after perfection and was ahead of his time and so it is possible (not sure of course) that he would have been also a great champion in the 2000's. But I recognize it is only an assumption. You talk about fitness : it is very likely that Tilden in the 2000's would be much fitter than he was in the 20's and that Federer would have much less fit 88 years before so to compare Tilden as he was in the 20's with Federer as he is now isn't the accurate comparison for me.

It is very likely too that Federer or Nadal would have been great champions in the 1920's but it is also an assumption.

In other human fields what really counts when comparisons are made, is to know if a person was (is) ahead of his generation. Nowadays it is evident that Edward Witten (known for his string theories in theoritical physics), has much more knowledges in physics than Einstein. And the same can be said when you compare Einstein and Newton. Does it mean that Witten is greatest than Einstein or that Einstein was greater than Newton ? I'm not sure at all. Newton made immensely progress his discipline and this is what really counts (of course Einstein and Witten did the same).
Why wouldn't it be the same in tennis ? Why judge tennis players in absolute terms and not in relative terms ?

I remember Lendl, around 1987, saying that his superb forehand will be forgotten 15 or 20 years later (to the great astonishment of the interviewer) because tennis (as other human disciplines) would improve. However we can today retort that if Lendl played today he would possibly have a modern forehand very efficient. Don't forget that Federer's and Nadal's forehands will be outdated, old-fashioned in 20 years. Does it mean that we will have to dismiss those players's strokes in a future GOAT comparison of forehands ? I don't think so. I think that even William Johnston's forehand could be taken into account in those sort of discussions.
 

JoshDragon

Hall of Fame
Hello,
It has been a long time since I've looked at the Tilden's Wikipedia article but I don't think there are so precise elements in it than those I've given in that quote. One or two years ago there was almost nothing about his pro career and I just added a few lines about them in the article. I'm not sure that other Tilden's pro feats have been written since my edit.

I don't agree with you when you compare greats.
Of course there is no comparison between the strain supported by modern players and ancient players. Even the great Australians in the 50's didn't do weight lifting exercises. Rosewall explained that the only one who did that sometimes was Hoad but at the time there was no scientific approach of those exercises and Rosewall said that Hoad made them without any knowledge and possibly hurt his back forever. Hoad being very athletic accepted every muscular challenge but doing badly those exercises (bad positions, ...) ruined his health and physical potential.

But the question isn't that one.
The true question is : what would have done Tilden if he had been born 88 years later against Federer or what would have done Federer against Tilden if he had been born 88 years earlier ?
In his era Tilden made all his possible to find anything in order to be better than the others. At that time there was no video, almost no coaching, no physical training, no scientific approach of every stroke motion, no psychological training, ... as now so it is evident that Tilden couldn't be as effective as a modern player. But with the small knowledges of his time he tried to improve his game. Perry thought that Tilden was a greater player than Budge because on one hand when Budge has reached his peak in the late 30s-early 40s he didn't try to improve his game because he thought that it was sufficient to beat the others and on the other hand Tilden after WWII that is when he was about 55 years old he was still trying to improve his forehand. So Tilden was a perfectionist. And in his time he was ahead of his generation in every department.

Do you know that this is him who organized almost all the US pro circuit in 46 ? There was about 30 tournaments (which was enormous at the time) with (I don't exactly remember) 17 tournaments giving ranking points. Open tennis would have arrived in the late 40's (and not in the late 60's) if Tilden hadn't been put in jail in 1947 (then all the US Pro circuit collapsed). Tilden had sometimes bad behaviours but he was very intelligent and always fought the establishment and always tried to better his game. Had he been born today I think (of course I can't be sure) he would have fought against the dominance of the hard surfaces which are the main responsibles of modern players' injuries. John Alexander, a good player of the 70's, claims that it should be clearly indicated that hard courts are dangerous for health as cigarettes are. Tilden would have possibly pushed world tennis to find more comfortable surfaces for the players. I've learnt yesterday that from 2009 all the ATP indoor tournaments would be played on hard surfaces and not on carpet : a) once again surfaces speedness will be reduced so the players will play longer and b) the surfaces will be tougher. a) and b) will make the players hurt themselves even more. I close the bracket.

All this to say that Tilden was always after perfection and was ahead of his time and so it is possible (not sure of course) that he would have been also a great champion in the 2000's. But I recognize it is only an assumption. You talk about fitness : it is very likely that Tilden in the 2000's would be much fitter than he was in the 20's and that Federer would have much less fit 88 years before so to compare Tilden as he was in the 20's with Federer as he is now isn't the accurate comparison for me.

It is very likely too that Federer or Nadal would have been great champions in the 1920's but it is also an assumption.

In other human fields what really counts when comparisons are made, is to know if a person was (is) ahead of his generation. Nowadays it is evident that Edward Witten (known for his string theories in theoritical physics), has much more knowledges in physics than Einstein. And the same can be said when you compare Einstein and Newton. Does it mean that Witten is greatest than Einstein or that Einstein was greater than Newton ? I'm not sure at all. Newton made immensely progress his discipline and this is what really counts (of course Einstein and Witten did the same).
Why wouldn't it be the same in tennis ? Why judge tennis players in absolute terms and not in relative terms ?

I remember Lendl, around 1987, saying that his superb forehand will be forgotten 15 or 20 years later (to the great astonishment of the interviewer) because tennis (as other human disciplines) would improve. However we can today retort that if Lendl played today he would possibly have a modern forehand very efficient. Don't forget that Federer's and Nadal's forehands will be outdated, old-fashioned in 20 years. Does it mean that we will have to dismiss those players's strokes in a future GOAT comparison of forehands ? I don't think so. I think that even William Johnston's forehand could be taken into account in those sort of discussions.

I enjoyed reading your article. I've read about Tilden and it sounds like he had a very sad life. Tilden's mother died when he was 15 years old and his father died four years later. Tilden, was born into a wealthy family and played tennis because it was a 'rich man's sport' not because he was a naturally gifted athlete, in fact he wasn't even able to make it on the college team, he wasn't the healthiest person either. Tilden, was a frequent smoker (which was common for the time) and didn't seem to care that his life style was unhealthy. Tilden's abilities as a tennis player peaked in his late 20s and early 30s which is when most players today are retiring, so if Tilden was born in 1981 he would have probably not been able to achieve very much considering that he peaked later in his life.
 
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urban

Legend
Just one small additional aspect to Tilden's career resumee: He invented tennis, as it is played today.
 

CyBorg

Legend
I remember Lendl, around 1987, saying that his superb forehand will be forgotten 15 or 20 years later (to the great astonishment of the interviewer) because tennis (as other human disciplines) would improve. However we can today retort that if Lendl played today he would possibly have a modern forehand very efficient. Don't forget that Federer's and Nadal's forehands will be outdated, old-fashioned in 20 years. Does it mean that we will have to dismiss those players's strokes in a future GOAT comparison of forehands ? I don't think so. I think that even William Johnston's forehand could be taken into account in those sort of discussions.

Strongly disagree.

Federer's forehand will look as modern in 20 years as it looks now, or at least very close to modern... IF equipment stays in proximity to what it is now.

If equipment changes then, yes, Roger's forehand will look odd to folks in the future.

You've probably missed the debates we've had on this board about baseball. Does Joe DiMaggio's swing look as outdated today as Bill Tilden's groundstrokes?
 
Strongly disagree.

Federer's forehand will look as modern in 20 years as it looks now, or at least very close to modern... IF equipment stays in proximity to what it is now.

If equipment changes then, yes, Roger's forehand will look odd to folks in the future.

You've probably missed the debates we've had on this board about baseball. Does Joe DiMaggio's swing look as outdated today as Bill Tilden's groundstrokes?

What I wanted to say is that tennis will very probably keep on improving in the future as it has done in past years. So it isn't unlikely that today players probably will look old-fashioned in future decades. Of course I'm not a soothsayer so I can't be certain but it is very likely that equipment will much change in future years. So wait and see.
And in fact I don't think that Lendl's forehand, let's say in the early 90's, now looks so old-fashioned.
 

CyBorg

Legend
What I wanted to say is that tennis will very probably keep on improving in the future as it has done in past years. So it isn't unlikely that today players probably will look old-fashioned in future decades. Of course I'm not a soothsayer so I can't be certain but it is very likely that equipment will much change in future years. So wait and see.
And in fact I don't think that Lendl's forehand, let's say in the early 90's, now looks so old-fashioned.

In general, I reject any claims that tennis is improving. This is a very subjective claim, especially when there's much evidence that tennis is going to the gutter as the game is getting increasingly corporate and homogenized.

Perceptions of improvement all come from false conclusions drawn from changes inherent in technology and its effect on the type of athlete that the sport now demands and the changing aesthetics that now accompany the game. The more corporate the sport has become the more emphasis has been placed on power to make the game sexy and turn athletes into superhuman machines.

The tennis star has gone from being a touch-and-feel player to a muscle-bound baseliner who hits monster groundstrokes from corner to corner.

Some sees this as evidence of improvement. I see this as evidence of corporate smoke and mirrors designed to manufacture a false sense of improvement.

There was a really good post on this board by !Tym, one of the better posters on here about Nadal's groundies and, in particular, the way he hits the ball. There's a kind of windmill effect when he hits and, in general, he looks like one of those discus throwers from Sparta when he does this. !Tym very cleverly pointed out that Nadal wouldn't be able to keep the ball in play if he hit like that with the old technology.

Again, smoke and mirrors.
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
In general, I reject any claims that tennis is improving.
Perceptions of improvement all come from false conclusions drawn from changes inherent in technology and its effect on the type of athlete that the sport now demands and the changing aesthetics that now accompany the game.
The tennis star has gone from being a touch-and-feel player to a muscle-bound baseliner who hits monster groundstrokes from corner to corner.

There was a really good post on this board by !Tym, one of the better posters on here about Nadal's groundies and, in particular, the way he hits the ball. There's a kind of windmill effect when he hits and, in general, he looks like one of those discus throwers from Sparta when he does this. !Tym very cleverly pointed out that Nadal wouldn't be able to keep the ball in play if he hit like that with the old technology.
I do believe that Nadal's game is a product of today's technology. Give Nadal a 66 sq. in. wooden racquet and gut strings, and he wouldn't be very good--probably a journeyman European clay-court specialist.

I think of the present crop of players, only Fed has the game and the strokes to have been a great player in the past. Maybe that's why I like his play so much.
 
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CyBorg

Legend
I do believe that Nadal's game is a product of today's technology. Give Nadal a 66 sq. in. wooden racquet and gut strings, and he wouldn't be very good--probably a journeyman European clay-court specialist.

I think of the present crop of players only Fed has the game and the strokes to have been a great player in the past. Maybe that's why I like his play so much.

Maybe Nadal would be a great player in any era. I really don't know. What I do know is that all of those blistering groundies of his wouldn't look as blistering without his juicy graphite on a slower, watered-down clay.
 

JoshDragon

Hall of Fame
I do believe that Nadal's game is a product of today's technology. Give Nadal a 66 sq. in. wooden racquet and gut strings, and he wouldn't be very good--probably a journeyman European clay-court specialist.

I think of the present crop of players only Fed has the game and the strokes to have been a great player in the past. Maybe that's why I like his play so much.

Nadal is a product of today's technology but you're crazy if you think that he would be a journey man during the past. Nadal, is at least as good of a clay court player as Borg was and if Borg found success with a wood racquet so could Nadal.

Federer is not the only player worth comparing to the past greats. Murray, Tsonga, and Nadal are going to accomplish a tremendous amount during their careers.
 

JoshDragon

Hall of Fame
Maybe Nadal would be a great player in any era. I really don't know. What I do know is that all of those blistering groundies of his wouldn't look as blistering without his juicy graphite on a slower, watered-down clay.

Ok, that's fine but you can argue the same thing about other players like McEnroe who depended on a faster court speed so that they could S&V.

Would former S&V players still be able to play well given the slower conditions of the surfaces today? Maybe, but it would require them to change their games to adapt to the surface.
 

CyBorg

Legend
Would former S&V players still be able to play well given the slower conditions of the surfaces today? Maybe, but it would require them to change their games to adapt to the surface.

My post has nothing to do with who would be able to play when. It's strictly about aesthetics and perception.

A different game requires a different athlete, so it goes without saying that the serve and volley is a skill much less desired now than ever before.
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Nadal is a product of today's technology but you're crazy if you think that he would be a journey man during the past. Nadal, is at least as good of a clay court player as Borg was and if Borg found success with a wood racquet so could Nadal.
Sorry, I disagree. Borg was a freak of nature: a product of incredible natural athleticism and cool Nordic single-mindedness. Nadal is a product of his training regimen and 100 sq. in. graphite racquet with poly strings.

Give Nadal a small head woodie and gut strings, and his game would be completely different--and not nearly so effective.


Federer is not the only player worth comparing to the past greats. Murray, Tsonga, and Nadal are going to accomplish a tremendous amount during their careers.

I regard Tsonga as a S&V player. It's very refreshing and rather unusual given today's mechanical game. And, depending on the surface, it can be very successful against the muscle-bound baseline grinders--as we witnessed in the semis of the 2008 Australian Open.

I'd never seen Nadal look so bumfuzzled.

But with a true S&V game, your skills and timing have to be spot on--pretty good is not good enough against the baseline bashers: either you'll dump the volley or you'll get passed. (Even Fed against Simon at the Shanghai Masters couldn't do it.)

Is this why Tsonga can't win consistently?
 
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JoshDragon

Hall of Fame
Sorry, I disagree. Borg was a freak of nature: a product of incredible natural athleticism and cool Nordic single-mindedness. Nadal is a product of his training regimen and 100 sq. in. graphite racquet with poly strings.

Give Nadal a small head woodie and gut strings, and his game would be completely different--and not nearly so effective.




I regard Tsonga as a S&V player. It's very refreshing and rather unusual given today's mechanical game. And, depending on the surface, it can be very successful against the muscle-bound baseline grinders--as we witnessed in the semis of the 2008 Australian Open.

I'd never seen Nadal look so bumfuzzled.

But with a true S&V game, your skills and timing have to be spot on--pretty good is not good enough against the baseline bashers: either you'll dump the volley or you'll get passed. (Even Fed against Simon at the Shanghai Masters couldn't do it.)

Is this why Tsonga can't win consistently?

Tsonga, is not really a S&V player, he does come in behind some of his serves but not all or even most of the time. I think that Tsonga is an all-court player.
 

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
I agree, neither should doubles.

(It's all tennis.)

If it's all tennis, why exclude part of it? It would seem that the opposite would be true. You would need to argue that doubles is "not really tennis" to exclude doubles from the GOAT discussions.
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Clark,

I agree with you. Doubles should be part of the equation.

I was being facetious. All the 12-year-old *******s on here want to exclude it because Fed hasn't won any doubles slams.

If they can't count it for him, then they don't want to count it all. They always say it's not important, and moronic gibberish that translates as "real men don't play doubles."
 

JoshDragon

Hall of Fame
Clark,

I agree with you. Doubles should be part of the equation.

I was being facetious. All the 12-year-old *******s on here want to exclude it because Fed hasn't won any doubles slams.

If they can't count it for him, then they don't want to count it all. They always say it's not important, and moronic gibberish that translates as "real men don't play doubles."

I assume that you're referring to me (and possibly others) with the 12-year-old *******s comment.

Doubles, doesn't mean all that much anymore. Back when John McEnroe, was playing, it was more important because McEnroe, and other top players, played singles as well as doubles and went far into the draws. McEnroe, actually won more doubles slams than singles but today the top players don't care about doubles and most tennis fans are only interested in what the top singles players are doing. If the singles players don't care about doubles, than why should the fans care?
 
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hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
I assume that you're referring to me (and possibly others) with the 12-year-old *******s comment.

Actually no. I was referring to other posters who used to poo-poo doubles, long before you joined the site.

My original point was similar to CyB's: GSPOAT or GDPOAT.

But if one is trying to find the GOAT, then the total record must be included--not just singles.

And yes, now we should include Fed's Olympic gold medal.
 
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hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Josh,

I think you are a nice guy, and are honestly seeking the truth.

All I can say is, I believe, the the more one reads and learns-- the more one realizes that Tilden, Budge, Laver, etc. were great players in their day and would be great players today--just as Fed is today.

Give everyone equal equipment (and similar time to prep on unfamiliar hardware) and who knows who would win.

It would helluva good fun to watch.
 
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timnz

Legend
1986 missing

Hello Hoodjem,

1983-1985 : 1) Wimbledon Open, 2) the U.S. Open and Roland Garros Open, and enough far behind 4) the Australian Open ( 5) the Masters)
1987-2007 : 1) Wimbledon Open, 2) the U.S. Open and Roland Garros Open, 4) the Australian Open ( 5) the Masters).

What do you think for 1986? (I notice you missed it).
 
What do you think for 1986? (I notice you missed it).

Hello, I've simply made a wrong "copy-paste" from my original word file into this forum. Sorry.

1986 : 1) Wimby, 2) US Open - French Open, 4) Masters (December 86).

Thanks to your remark I've since edited my original post
 
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hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Hello Hoodjem,
thank you for the greetings,

once again I shall split my answer because I write more than 10000 characters. Here is the first part of my message

Here is my list of the 4 most important events of each year since 1950. I haven't checked it for more than a year and at the time I've taken into account some Jeffrey Neave's remarks (in the Wikipedia site). SgtJohn proposed to include some clay events in the 50's to be fair with modern players but in a Tennis Warehouse quote I retorted that in this case we should pick up modern events on truly fast courts to be fair with ancient players because nowadays fast courts almost don't exist anymore.

My "not recently updated" list :

Here is at last my personal list of the 4 biggest events (in disorder when no ranking is indicated) year by year from 1950 to 2007 (changed on Thursday September 27, 2007 after Jeffrey Neave’s remarks) :
1950 : 1) the Kramer-Gonzales pro tour, the US Pro (Cleveland), Philadelphia Pro, 4) perhaps Paris Pro indoors or the beginning of the Kramer-Segura pro tour (ended in 1951) or even Wembley Pro
1951 : the U.S. Pro (held that year at Forest Hills, the usual site of the amateur championships), Philadelphia Pro, the main part of the Kramer-Segura pro tour, 4) Wembley Pro (or the German Pro in Berlin)
1952 : 1) Wembley Pro, 2) the U.S. Pro (Cleveland-Lakewood) and Philadelphia Pro, 4) Berlin Pro-Rot Weiss Tennis Club
1953 : 1) Wembley Pro, 2) the Kramer-Sedgman pro tour, 3) probably the Paris Pro tournament, the New York Pro Indoors, the Caracas and Lyon (and perhaps Geneva) pro tournaments (very difficult to know what were the greatest events that year : the tournaments cited here are the only ones where three of the four best players were present each time)
1954 : 1) the US Pro (Cleveland), 2) the Australian Pro, 3) the Gonzales-Segura-Sedgman-Budge (and Earn) pro tour, 4) the Australian Gonzales-Sedgman-Segura-McGregor pro tour or the US Pro Hardcourt (Los Angeles) or the Far East Segura-Gonzales-Sedgman-Kramer pro tour
1955 : 1) the US Pro (Cleveland), 2) the Australian Gonzales-Sedgman-Segura-Ayre pro tour, 3) the US Pro Hardcourt (Los Angeles), 4) perhaps Scarborough Pro (or even the several pro matches in Rome with Gonzales-Sedgman-Segura-McGregor in June)
1956 : 1) Wembley Pro, 2) the first Pro Tournament of Champions at Los Angeles (not held at Forest Hills that year), 3) the US Pro (Cleveland) and the French Pro (Roland Garros)
1957 : 1) the Pro Tournament of Champions (Forest Hills), 2) the Masters Round Robin Pro in Los Angeles, 3) the Australian Pro (Sydney), 4) the U.S. Pro (Cleveland) (5) Wembley Pro).
1958 : 1) the Pro Tournament of Champions (Forest Hills), 2) Wembley Pro, 3) the French Pro (Roland Garros), 4) Masters Round Robin Pro in Los Angeles or Melbourne Pro or the Australian Pro (Sydney, there were only 3 Australian Pro in tennis history, 1954-1957-1958 )
1959 : 1) the Pro Tournament of Champions (Forest Hills), 2) [New South Wales Pro-Sydney (the February edition), Victoria Pro-Melbourne, South Australia Pro-Adelaide, Western Australia Pro-Perth, Masters Round Robin Pro-Los Angeles] with all the best players and perhaps tied with Wembley Pro and the French Pro because the two last had a (small) tradition but Gonzales, then probably the best player in the world, was missing both tournaments due to his legitimate dispute with Kramer now mainly a pro tennis promoter
1960 : 1) the Gonzales-Rosewall-Segura-Olmedo pro tour, 2) Wembley Pro, 3) the French Pro (Roland Garros), far behind 4) the Australian Pro Indoor in Melbourne in May (not to confuse with the Victorian Pro in Melbourne in January) or Santa Barbara Pro (or perhaps the Masters Round Robin Pro in Los Angeles or San Francisco Pro ?)
1961 : 1) Wembley Pro, 2) the French Pro (Roland Garros), far behind 3) Vienna Pro and the Scandinavian Pro-Copenhagen
1962 : 1) Wembley Pro, 2) the French Pro (Roland Garros), far behind 3) Geneva Pro and Milan Pro (and perhaps the Kramer Cup ?)
1963 : 1) Wembley Pro, 2) the French Pro (Coubertin), enough far behind 3) the U.S. Pro-Forest Hills, 4) Kitzbühel Pro and Cannes Pro
1964 : 1) Wembley Pro, 2) the French Pro (Coubertin), 3) the US Pro (without Sedgman, present in the two big European tournaments), far behind 4) the US Pro Indoor-White Plains ( 5) Masters Round Robin Pro-Los Angeles and St Louis Pro, 6) College Park Pro)
1965 : 1) Wembley Pro (without Gonzales), 2) the US Pro (without Gimeno) and the French Pro (Coubertin) (without Gonzales), far behind 4) the US Pro Indoor-New York City (without Hoad) or the Victorian Pro-Melbourne (without Gimeno) or the New South Wales Pro-Sydney (without Gimeno)
1966 : 1) New York City-Madison Square Garden Pro, 2) the US Pro, 3) Wembley Pro and the French Pro (Coubertin) (5) Pro Clay Court Championship-Barcelona and possibly Forest Hills Pro)
1967 : 1) Wimbledon Pro (possibly the most important pro tournament in the pre-open era though with a reduced field of 8 players), 2) the US Pro (the strongest field of the year), 3) Wembley Pro and the French Pro (Coubertin), ( 5) Los Angeles Pro, 6) New York City-Madison Square Garden Pro and Berkeley Pro).
In the open era until 1982 included the hierarchy was almost as unstable as in the pre-open era :
1968 : 1) Wimbledon Open, 2) the U.S. Open, 3) Roland Garros Open (many players couldn’t come because of the events of May 1968 and Dave Dixon, boss of WCT prevented his players to enter the tournament : among the best claycourt players absent were Newcombe, Roche, Okker and Santana) and the Pacific Southwest Open in Los Angeles (all the best were there) (5) US Pro, French Pro, Wembley Pro and possibly the Queen's)
1969 : 1) Wimbledon Open, 2) the U.S. Open, 3) Roland Garros Open, 4) the Australian Open (5) the Pacific Southwest Open in Los Angeles or the Howard Hughes Open at Las Vegas or the Philadelphia Open or perhaps the South African Open or the German Open or the Italian Open)
1970 : 1) Wimbledon Open, 2) the U.S. Open, far behind 3) Philadelphia Open, 4) Dunlop Open Sydney (5) the Masters (the first one in tennis history, at Tokyo), the US Pro (Boston), Pacific Southwest Open of Los Angeles and Wembley Pro. I haven't yet a clear opinion between all these events).
1971 : 1) Wimbledon Open, 2) the U.S. Open, 3) the Australian Open, 4) the WCT Finals-Houston&Dallas or the Italian Open (Rome) here is our major disagreement between jeffreyneave and me : he thinks that Rome is above the WCT Finals that year, I originally thought the contrary but after his arguments I changed a little my thinking and placed both tournaments equal)
1972 : 1) the U.S. Open and far behind 2) the Pacific Southwest Open in Los Angeles (the 2nd best field of all the events after the U.S. Open because both WCT and independent professionals could (and would) enter) - the WCT Finals-Dallas, 4) the Stockholm Open (3rd field of the year) and perhaps the Davis Cup. Recall : no pro player under contract (WCT) could enter the Davis Cup, Wimbledon and Roland Garros because they were banned from the traditional circuit from January through summer (the first « open » tournaments in 1972 were Merion and Orange just before the U.S. Open) : during Wimbledon, Newcombe, a WCT player in 1972, won the St. Louis WCT tournament, not at all a Grand Prix tournament (the Grand Prix circuit was the traditional one) as wrongly indicated in the ATP Website and then commented the Wimbledon final on TV whereas he was the titlist.
1973 : 1) the U.S. Open 2) Roland Garros Open and far behind 3) the Masters, 4) the Italian Open-Rome and the WCT Finals-Dallas ( 6) the first Davis Cup Open to all professionals and in particular the WCT players (I think , but I can be wrong, that if the Challenge Round system had been abandoned in the 50s and not in 1972 and if the Davis Cup had been open since 1968 (and eventually before) and not since 1973 it would possibly have still been the greatest tennis event today)
1974 : 1) Wimbledon Open, 2) the U.S. Open, far behind 3) Roland Garros Open, 4) the WCT Finals-Dallas (5) the Masters or the US Pro indoor-Philadelphia)
1975 : 1) Wimbledon Open, 2) the U.S. Open, far behind 3) Roland Garros Open, 4) the Masters ( 5) the WCT Finals-Dallas)
1976 : 1) Wimbledon Open, 2) the U.S. Open, far behind 3) Roland Garros Open, far behind 4) the U.S. Pro Indoor-Philadelphia (and perhaps the WCT Finals-Dallas)
1977 : 1) Wimbledon Open, 2) the U.S. Open, far behind 3) the Masters, 4) Roland Garros Open ( 5) perhaps the U.S. Pro Indoor-Philadelphia and the WCT Finals-Dallas)
1978 : 1) Wimbledon Open, 2) the U.S. Open, far behind 3) Roland Garros Open, 4) the U.S. Pro Indoor-Philadelphia
1979 : 1) Wimbledon Open, 2) the U.S. Open, 3) Roland Garros Open, and far behind 4) the Masters (5) the WCT Finals-Dallas)
1980 : 1) Wimbledon Open, 2) the U.S. Open, 3) Roland Garros Open, and far behind 4) the Masters
1981 : 1) Wimbledon Open, 2) the U.S. Open, 3) Roland Garros Open, and far behind 4) the Masters (5) the Davis Cup)
1982 : 1) Wimbledon Open, 2) the U.S. Open and Roland Garros Open, and far behind 4) the Masters (5) the Davis Cup)
1983-1985 : 1) Wimbledon Open, 2) the U.S. Open and Roland Garros Open, and enough far behind 4) the Australian Open ( 5) the Masters)
1986 : 1) Wimbledon Open, 2) the U.S. Open and Roland Garros Open, and enough far behind 4) the Masters (in December)
1987-2007 : 1) Wimbledon Open, 2) the U.S. Open and Roland Garros Open, 4) the Australian Open ( 5) the Masters).
I shall print this thread off, and scrutinize its content. Worth studying.
 
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