Can we agree that the Fed-Djoker match will decide the 2nd best clay courter?

kraggy

kraggy

Banned
Joker fans would love to see Joker win and Fed fans would love to see Fed win. Irrespective of whether Fed slips into la-la-land or Djoker goes into huff-puff land, whoever wins this match should be called the better clay courter. No excuses from fans of either side! Unless Uncle Toni stabs one of them in the back, the result of this match (assuming it happens) should be the decider.

Agreed?
 
vtmike

vtmike

Banned
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gj011

gj011

Banned
No. Only if the schedule was fair to both players and they are both healthy and rested.

If it would be the case of Wimbledon 2007 when Djokovic played two 5 hour matches in two days and than had to play the SF third day in a row, while Federer had 5 days break in the meantime, than of course that match would not mean much.

Or case like Madrid 2009. That final didn't mean anything since Nadal was exhausted, because of 4 hour the SF with Djokovic.
 
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vtmike

vtmike

Banned
kraggy said:
I'm sorry my understanding of morse code is not upto par :neutral:
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morse%20code%20alphabet.jpg


:)
 
veroniquem

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
Djoko's draw is much tougher than Fed's draw, so let's see first if he can reach the semi and in what condition. (If Djoko had Fed's draw and Fed had Djoko's, I would not hesitate to bet on Djoko as the RG finalist but that's another discussion). I don't need RG though to say that all along the clay season, Djoko has been the second best clay player, making the final of the 2 most important clay tournaments: Rome and Monte-Carlo.
 
kraggy

kraggy

Banned
gj011 said:
Of course that match has to be taken into account as well
Click to expand...

Agreed but since the FO match will be their last match in the clay season

If Fed wins and loses the final : Their clay H2H will be 1-1 this season, Feds win will be in the bigger tournament and Fed has beaten Nadal once. I would then call Fed the better clay courter this season.

If Djoker wins and loses the final : the clay H2H will be 2-0 favor of Djoker this season. I would definitely call Djoker the better clay courter this season.

Of course if either player actually wins and beats Nadal in the final (unlikely but not impossible), then it would be a clear cut decision.
 
checkmilu

checkmilu

Semi-Pro
who care about second best, they need to fight till the end & beat Rafa to be the best, otherwise not so important
 
veroniquem

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
kraggy said:
Agreed but since the FO match will be their last match in the clay season

If Fed wins and loses the final : Their clay H2H will be 1-1 this season, Feds win will be in the bigger tournament and Fed has beaten Nadal once. I would then call Fed the better clay courter this season.

If Djoker wins and loses the final : the clay H2H will be 2-0 favor of Djoker this season. I would definitely call Djoker the better clay courter this season.

Of course if either player actually wins and beats Nadal in the final (unlikely but not impossible), then it would be a clear cut decision.
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It could also be who has the best draw and we all know who that is. One cannot underestimate the importance of the draw. If Fed had had Murray in Rome instead of Djoko, he would probably have made the final. Abilitywise they're probably very close at this point. One big difference is that Fed has beaten Nadal on clay (twice), Djoko never has (but let's remember Djoko is also much younger). Of course neither of them has beaten Nadal in a best of 5.
 
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drakulie

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
kraggy said:
Joker fans would love to see Joker win and Fed fans would love to see Fed win. Irrespective of whether Fed slips into la-la-land or Djoker goes into huff-puff land, whoever wins this match should be called the better clay courter. No excuses from fans of either side! Unless Uncle Toni stabs one of them in the back, the result of this match (assuming it happens) should be the decider.

Agreed?
Click to expand...

Fed is the number 1 clay courter right now, being that he dethroned Rafa on clay last week.

Being that rafa beat joker last week, that would make Nadal # 2.

Not sure who # 3 or 4 are between Joker and Murray.
 
skip1969

skip1969

G.O.A.T.
what exactly is the big deal? is there a nice prize that goes with the "second-best clay courter in the world?" maybe a gift card for best buy? or a nice 100% cotton t-shirt?
 
Docalex007

Docalex007

Hall of Fame
I agree but I think Fed as of right now is the 2nd best clay courter out there simply because Fed won a clay tournament by beating Nadal and people forget Federer was leading Djokovic a set and a break at both the other two clay masters events and could have pulled both wins out easily by just maintaining concentration and level of play.
 
kraggy

kraggy

Banned
skip1969 said:
what exactly is the big deal? is there a nice prize that goes with the "second-best clay courter in the world?" maybe a gift card for best buy? or a nice 100% cotton t-shirt?
Click to expand...

Its an all you can buy at Circuit City before they go out of business!
 
J

joeri888

G.O.A.T.
Yes I agree. If they are to meet in the semis, the winner will be the 2009 second best claycourter. If either doesn't make it and the other makes the final, he is the second best claycourter. In fact, whoever makes the final of Roland Garros OR wins this tournament is the second best claycourter.
 
W

woodrow1029

Guest
gj011 said:
No. Only if the schedule was fair to both players and they are both healthy and rested.

If it would be the case of Wimbledon 2007 when Djokovic played two 5 hour matches in two days and than had to play the SF third day in a row, while Federer had 5 days break in the meantime, than of course that match would not mean much.

Or case like Madrid 2009. That final didn't mean anything since Nadal was exhausted, because of 4 hour the SF with Djokovic.
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Gee. What a shocker!!
 
drakulie

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal_Freak said:
Djokovic is already the better clay courter. Win or lose. Upsets do happen.
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I don't agree that Joker is a better clay courter than Nadal, as evidenced by the fact the last time they played>>> Nadal beat him, and has more clay court titles than him this year.

PS: Why do you keep hating on Nadal???
 
Nadal_Freak

Nadal_Freak

Banned
drakulie said:
I don't agree that Joker is a better clay courter than Nadal, as evidenced by the fact the last time they played>>> Nadal beat him, and has more clay court titles than him this year.

PS: Why do you keep hating on Nadal???
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You know this thread is about Federer. Monte-Carlo and Rome shows whose had the better clay seaon.
 
thejoe

thejoe

Hall of Fame
Nadal_Freak said:
You know this thread is about Federer. Monte-Carlo and Rome shows whose had the better clay seaon.
Click to expand...

This is the most laughable reasoning I've ever seen. All you've done is left out the tournament that Federer won. I can just as easily say "Madrid shows who has had the better clay season" seeing as he beat Nadal and won a big title. That ranks above losing 3 matches and winning a tiddly little title in Belgrade.
 
drakulie

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal_Freak said:
You know this thread is about Federer. Monte-Carlo and Rome shows whose had the better clay seaon.
Click to expand...


Last time I checked, Fed is the holder of the last clay court masters. He also snapped Nadal's winning streak on clay, and denied him the opportunity to be the first guy in history to win all 4 clay events in one year.

The # 2 spot goes to Nadal, and number 3 to Joker.
 
P

Pirao

Semi-Pro
No doubt.

10 chars

drakulie said:
Last time I checked, Fed is the holder of the last clay court masters. He also snapped Nadal's winning streak on clay, and denied him the opportunity to be the first guy in history to win all 4 clay events in one year.

The # 2 spot goes to Djokovic, and number 3 to Fed.
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Fixed
 
S

Solomon

New User
drakulie said:
Last time I checked, Fed is the holder of the last clay court masters. He also snapped Nadal's winning streak on clay, and denied him the opportunity to be the first guy in history to win all 4 clay events in one year.

The # 2 spot goes to Nadal, and number 3 to Joker.
Click to expand...

No.

1. Federer
2. Brian Dabul
3. Nadal
4. Djokovic
 
thejoe

thejoe

Hall of Fame
^Where is Andy Roddick in that list? He is the only player who took a set of the best clay court player in Madrid.
 
Nadal_Freak

Nadal_Freak

Banned
thejoe said:
This is the most laughable reasoning I've ever seen. All you've done is left out the tournament that Federer won. I can just as easily say "Madrid shows who has had the better clay season" seeing as he beat Nadal and won a big title. That ranks above losing 3 matches and winning a tiddly little title in Belgrade.
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Madrid was in altitude and Nadal was exhausted. Not a good example of the clay court season. Rome and Monte-Carlo are more true examples of clay court tennis.
 
DownTheLine

DownTheLine

Hall of Fame
To me you have to look that Federer has been in the finals how many years at the FO compared to djoker and who has beat Nadal more on clay those two things point towards federer.

Fed has my vote but of course i am a fanboy.
 
thejoe

thejoe

Hall of Fame
Nadal_Freak said:
Madrid was in altitude and Nadal was exhausted. Not a good example of the clay court season. Rome and Monte-Carlo are more true examples of clay court tennis.
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Explain to me, in as much detail as you can, how this was a factor (I don't expect a coherent answer here.) Federer didn't get into any rallies that would have exposed Nadal's fatigue. How did his fatigue show up when Federer was ending the points so quickly?

Not a good example? It was played on clay wasn't it? The bounce was high, which in no way whatsoever favours Federer. I don't see how you can try and spin it that way.

What exactly is "true" clay court tennis oh wise one? Any conditions which favour Nadal? It's a perfect example of clay court tennis, seeing as it is played on *shock horror* clay. If Nadal had won, you wouldn't have been complaining.
 
DownTheLine

DownTheLine

Hall of Fame
Nadal_Freak said:
Madrid was in altitude and Nadal was exhausted. Not a good example of the clay court season. Rome and Monte-Carlo are more true examples of clay court tennis.
Click to expand...

Even the announcers at the FO this morning that Nadal is the one who *****es most about the altitude. Nadal just can't take a true loss.

Is fed going on a rant the only reason he lost his #1 ranking because of mono?
 
B

BigServer1

Legend
"Djokovic is the second best clay court player"

I don't see how this is the case...Djokovic has never made a French final, and he's never beaten Nadal on clay. Federer has 3 straight French finals and 2 wins over Nadal on clay.

IF they both get there and Djokovic beats Fed in the semis(and it's a big if since Federer is 3-1 against Djokovic in Slam matches), I will concede that Djokovic is superior to Federer on clay, but until then I think that the results favor Federer in this argument.
 
DownTheLine

DownTheLine

Hall of Fame
thejoe said:
Explain to me, in as much detail as you can, how this was a factor (I don't expect a coherent answer here.) Federer didn't get into any rallies that would have exposed Nadal's fatigue. How did his fatigue show up when Federer was ending the points so quickly?

Not a good example? It was played on clay wasn't it? The bounce was high, which in no way whatsoever favours Federer. I don't see how you can try and spin it that way.

What exactly is "true" clay court tennis oh wise one? Any conditions which favour Nadal? It's a perfect example of clay court tennis, seeing as it is played on *shock horror* clay. If Nadal had won, you wouldn't have been complaining.
Click to expand...
I agree last time i checked Federer doesn't have a great backhand when it comes to high balls so i think nadal was trying to make another excuse for his stupidity.
 
Nadal_Freak

Nadal_Freak

Banned
thejoe said:
Explain to me, in as much detail as you can, how this was a factor (I don't expect a coherent answer here.) Federer didn't get into any rallies that would have exposed Nadal's fatigue. How did his fatigue show up when Federer was ending the points so quickly?

Not a good example? It was played on clay wasn't it? The bounce was high, which in no way whatsoever favours Federer. I don't see how you can try and spin it that way.

What exactly is "true" clay court tennis oh wise one? Any conditions which favour Nadal? It's a perfect example of clay court tennis, seeing as it is played on *shock horror* clay. If Nadal had won, you wouldn't have been complaining.
Click to expand...
Fed got many more free points on his serve than he usually gets on clay against Nadal. Faster conditions. And Nadal would've finished his match much quicker against Djokovic if he could break more. The altitude kept the ball high so Nadal couldn't get a comfortable return. Add to the fact that it was warm and dry and Djokovic taking Nadal over 4 hours. Nadal felt much weaker the next day. You lose a lot of weight in a short time when you play that long of matches. Credit to Nadal for fighting through with Djokovic but I knew he wouldn't have anything left for the final.
 
thejoe

thejoe

Hall of Fame
Nadal_Freak said:
Fed got many more free points on his serve than he usually gets on clay against Nadal. Faster conditions. And Nadal would've finished his match much quicker against Djokovic if he could break more. The altitude kept the ball high so Nadal couldn't get a comfortable return. Add to the fact that it was warm and dry and Djokovic taking Nadal over 4 hours. Nadal felt much weaker the next day. You lose a lot of weight in a short time when you play that long of matches. Credit to Nadal for fighting through with Djokovic but I knew he wouldn't have anything left for the final.
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That is poor. He was fine for the final. Also, the semi was not 4 hours long. Subtract the ludicrous breaks between points and injury time outs, and you have a standard competitive match.

There you go again whinging about the high ball. Nadal with his western grip has an easier time than Federer with his eastern. You can't claim that one. How do you know he felt weaker? He certainly didn't look it. I doubt weight loss is a factor either :roll:
 
W

woodrow1029

Guest
Nadal_Freak said:
Madrid was in altitude and Nadal was exhausted. Not a good example of the clay court season. Rome and Monte-Carlo are more true examples of clay court tennis.
Click to expand...
Anytime I need a laugh, you are right there!
 
drakulie

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
Solomon said:
No.

1. Federer
2. Brian Dabul
3. Nadal
4. Djokovic
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Oh yeah! Sorry>>> I forgot about Dabul. :)

Also, the joe is correct in stating Roddick should be up there too, since he is the last one to take a set off fed on clay.

So, the new list is

1. Fed
2. Dabul
3. Nadal (by a marging over Roddick)
3. Roddick
4. Joker.
 
P_Agony

P_Agony

Banned
It has more to do with how Roger plays. If he plays well, I don't like Djoko's chances. If he plays like he did in their best of 3 matches, Djokovic will spank him.

Either way, I agree the match between the two will decide who was the better clayer of the season.
 
skip1969

skip1969

G.O.A.T.
keep the discussion alive, guys. i'm still designing the complimentary, 100% cotton t-shirt which will be given to the man who is crowned "second-best clay courter." such an honor deserves an equally grand prize!

i was thinking about making the t-shirt pink . . .
 
M

mzzmuaa

Semi-Pro
yea
if federer wins then nadal is 2nd best claycourter
if djokovic wins then djokovic is 2nd best claycourter
 
gj011

gj011

Banned
You all forgot Stakhovsky who beat Dabul yesterday.

More appropriate standings would be:
1. Stakhovsky
2. Dabul
3. Federer
4. Nadal
5. Djokovic

And if Djokovic beat Stakhovski tomorrow it will be:

1. Djokovic
2. Stakhovski
3. Dabul
4. Federer
5. Nadal
 
T

tennisplaya

Rookie
If Nole gets further than Federer in this tournament Nole remains the #2 on clay. If federer gets further than Nole, Federer leapfrogs Nole to become #2 on clay.
 
S

Solomon

New User
drakulie said:
Oh yeah! Sorry>>> I forgot about Dabul. :)

Also, the joe is correct in stating Roddick should be up there too, since he is the last one to take a set off fed on clay.

So, the new list is

1. Fed
2. Dabul
3. Nadal (by a marging over Roddick)
3. Roddick
4. Joker.
Click to expand...

That sounds about right :)
 
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