Lionheart392
Professional
What are your reasons for that, and what must Serena do to overtake her?
billie jean king has a stadium named after her. as great as serena williams is, that is one tough act to follow.
King cared about the whole tour like most great players. Serena tanks most of the regular tour.
1. Billie Jean King has twice as many Wimbledon titles. Even if you removed Venus (and the grass court field now would really be a joke for some of that time) she still has fewer than King.
2. Billie Jean King has almost double the combined Wimbledon and U.S Open titles as Serena.
3. King would probably have about 15 slams if she had played the Australian Open every year.
4. King faced a great field. Serena faced a very strong field to win her first 6 slams and a joke field to win her last 5, especialy her last 3.
5. King cared about the whole tour like most great players. Serena tanks most of the regular tour. She even has less tour titles than Kim Clijsters and Lindsay Davenport.
6. King never had a huge hole in the middle of her prime where she won only 2 slams in a 5 year span (Serena from after 2003 Wimbledon until the 2008 U.S Open) and for a couple years like in 2005 and 2006 dropped off the radar altogether. Injuries alone are not an excuse if you are still able to play.
7. Serena was even on the verge of being surpassed as the greatest player of her generation before Henins retirement. Who knows with Henins return it could still maybe happen, though it would be alot harder for Henin to catch up now than before. Henin though was a better player than Serena from mid 2003 until her retirement, that is almost 5 years, and Henin is not a top tier all time great at this moment herself.
Given the terrible field Serena has won her last 5 slams against I would say she needs atleast 15 slams to rank over King, maybe more. With Henin and Clijsters returning her future slams would be more validated than her last 3 were. However I have a feeling with Henin and Clijsters returning, with Serenas lack of commitment these days, with Maria possibly returning to form, and with some of the up and comers soon to hit their stride, Serena wont reach 15 slams and thus will stay behind King.
Personally I already rate Serena as a better player than Billie Jean (marginally).
Maybe this is because I don't subscribe to total career achievement being the best baromoter of talent.
Where do you people rank Mo Connolly or Monica Seles?
Tim
Personally I already rate Serena as a better player than Billie Jean (marginally).
Maybe this is because I don't subscribe to total career achievement being the best baromoter of talent.
Where do you people rank Mo Connolly or Monica Seles? Surely higher than their total career achievement.
Tim
Wuornos,
Seles to me is one of the hardest players to rank. At her peak she was clearly overwhelming and dominant but due to the stabbing she did not have the great career she should have had. Seles won 32 of the first 63 tournaments she played in before the stabbing. That's over fifty percent.
After the stabbing she won 21 of the next 105. That's twenty percent. Now obviously a lot of that had to do with the fact she was getting older but I think a good percentage of it, perhaps even most of it had to do with the injury and the psychological problems that came with it. There is no doubt for a while that Seles had the best record in Women's tennis, even over the Great Graf. Whether Seles would have kept the number one position is subject to debate.
Connolly was virtually unbeatable in her day and I believe won nine straight majors that she entered plus the Grand Slam.
My gut feeling and I haven't done a full analysis of the two players records side by side is that I would rank Connolly over Seles. Better record in the majors plus a Grand Slam. Seles won over fifty tournaments in her career. I think it was fifty-three. I'm not quite certain about how many Connolly won in total but I'm sure it was a good amount.
I've been having an ongoing disagreement with Carlo over the last few months on the values of certain tournaments and the impact these tournaments would have in a player's career. A lot of it has to do with what we consider the strength of the field.
I was thinking the other logical way to do it is by using the methods you use in ranking players. Unfortunately I don't see a totally 100% accurate way of doing it. The Rosewall below Emerson ranking is one of the major flaws for example but if we could do that it would be a wonderful way to look at a tennis player's career.
Yes that summarises what I was trying to say pc1.
You have to rate a player at their best not their total career achievement
I put Seles at #3 on my list but to be honest their is nothing between the top 3.
Connolly is lower down not because her record was inferior but because the women's game was less competitive in the years she was playing and therefore the distance in the quality of her results from the standard of the #50 player in the world, which I use as my benchmark, was not as great. Personally I would rank her 7th.
The point is though, as you have quite rightly identified, to judge either of these players purely on total career achievement without taking into account their personal tragedies would be wrong. Therefore a system that adopts total career achievement as the main barometer of player talent must be flawed to a greater or lesser extent edpending on the player being rated.
Thanks
Take care
Tim
Just counting the open era, I rank Seles #7, after Serena who is #6. Whether the two can be switched has been debated here recently but I personally believe Serena has surpassed Seles now. Ranking Seles any higher than #6 though is not justifiable IMO, the stabbing was a tragedy but 'what ifs' aren't strong enough to rank her over the likes of King and Court.
Personally I already rate Serena as a better player than Billie Jean (marginally).
Maybe this is because I don't subscribe to total career achievement being the best baromoter of talent.
Where do you people rank Mo Connolly or Monica Seles? Surely higher than their total career achievement.
Tim
I can't agree with ranking Seles as low as #6. I agree if you are dealing only in total career achievement then we would have to deal in what if's and I agree that that is not possible. But we can calculate Seles peak quality of results as being far higher in the player distribution than that of many players who achieved more than her. For this reason I think we can rate Seles higher without dealing in what if's.
All time Seles for me is number 9 or 10 at a near deadlock with Serena at this point. Connolly is number 7. No matter how good you are at your peak...I can't see rating a player higher than someone else if the person you are rating them higher than achieved two or 3 times more than they did. Even with what happened, Seles could have come back and been just as dominant but she wasn't able to...the Connolly case is sad, but I cannot rate her a lot higher based on an alternate history that could have happened, if I did that I would then have to rate Austin higher (prime cut short due to injuries), Court higher (all the times off for giving birth to her children)...etc.
1. Billie Jean King has twice as many Wimbledon titles. Even if you removed Venus (and the grass court field now would really be a joke for some of that time) she still has fewer than King.
2. Billie Jean King has almost double the combined Wimbledon and U.S Open titles as Serena.
3. King would probably have about 15 slams if she had played the Australian Open every year.
4. King faced a great field. Serena faced a very strong field to win her first 6 slams and a joke field to win her last 5, especialy her last 3.
5. King cared about the whole tour like most great players. Serena tanks most of the regular tour. She even has less tour titles than Kim Clijsters and Lindsay Davenport.
6. King never had a huge hole in the middle of her prime where she won only 2 slams in a 5 year span (Serena from after 2003 Wimbledon until the 2008 U.S Open) and for a couple years like in 2005 and 2006 dropped off the radar altogether. Injuries alone are not an excuse if you are still able to play.
7. Serena was even on the verge of being surpassed as the greatest player of her generation before Henins retirement. Who knows with Henins return it could still maybe happen, though it would be alot harder for Henin to catch up now than before. Henin though was a better player than Serena from mid 2003 until her retirement, that is almost 5 years, and Henin is not a top tier all time great at this moment herself.
Given the terrible field Serena has won her last 5 slams against I would say she needs atleast 15 slams to rank over King, maybe more. With Henin and Clijsters returning her future slams would be more validated than her last 3 were. However I have a feeling with Henin and Clijsters returning, with Serenas lack of commitment these days, with Maria possibly returning to form, and with some of the up and comers soon to hit their stride, Serena wont reach 15 slams and thus will stay behind King.
Just a difference of opinion you believe no matter how good a player is if their career is cut short and they achieve less as a result they should be valued lower as their is insufficient evidence.
I believe there is sufficient evidence and a player should be rated on their peak playing standard rather than their aggregate level of achievement.
What I an not doing is rating on an 'alternative history'. This is implying that I am rating players on aggregate achievement which I am not. Please try to understand that not everyone evaluates in aggregate terms.
I feel a little offended that you think I am simple enough to rate on 'alternative history' rather than facts, but maybe I am just tired. After all many people rate Laver as GOAT. They may not consciously be doing it but this is not an aggregate assesment but a quality assesment.
Regards
Tim
Do not be offended, the alternate history comment was a more general statement that is not directed at you. Many rate players partially based on what-ifs...and Seles gets a lot of benefit from many in that category. I understand your system and know that it is based on much more than that even though I may not agree with its results, but that is just my opinion.
There is no way to concretely determine the GOAT or to rank players...I just personally feel taking the level of play for 3-4 years out of a career that may last 10-15 years is not a good way to judge overall greatness. In my opinion by doing that you shortchange players who acheived copious amounts throughout there entire career like Chris Evert did. But that is just my opinion and should not in any way stop you from offering yours, because it does offer a very different perspective. I think your numbers could be used as a factor in determining greatness...but I would not use them to singularly determine it. I think they could be used very well with overall achievement...but not in place of it. Again...all my opinion.
Just a difference of opinion you believe no matter how good a player is if their career is cut short and they achieve less as a result they should be valued lower as their is insufficient evidence.
I believe there is sufficient evidence and a player should be rated on their peak playing standard rather than their aggregate level of achievement.
What I an not doing is rating on an 'alternative history'. This is implying that I am rating players on aggregate achievement which I am not. Please try to understand that not everyone evaluates in aggregate terms.
I feel a little offended that you think I am simple enough to rate on 'alternative history' rather than facts, but maybe I am just tired. After all many people rate Laver as GOAT. They may not consciously be doing it but this is not an aggregate assesment but a quality assesment.
Regards
Tim
I had a disagreement with another poster who was annoyed that I ranked another player higher than another player (that people have called a GOAT candidate) because I did some research and found the former (in my opinion) was far superior during the relative peak periods of both. Now I also told him that the former was also superior for career value but the other poster didn't want to accept that and I suppose that's okay.
However because of the dominance of the former during his peak, I ranked him up there with Laver, Rosewall and Tilden as a GOAT candidate because I felt he was every bit as dominant as they were during their peaks except he didn't have as long a career. The other poster strongly disagreed with me and again that is his right.
To shorten a long statement, I largely agree with you Tim on peak playing level, not totally but I agree on a good portion.
Thanks pc1. It's nice to know that I am no alone in my thought processes on this.
Regards
Tim
One more thing:
Billie Jean lives and breathes tennis. She helped to develop the sport professionally in a way that Serena never had the opportunity to, because she was a beneficiary of that work.
But Serena could have chosen to focus on tennis in the same way. She didn't. Her tennis has suffered because of that choice, although her bank account has not. ...
I think Serena would have been an even bigger worldwide star if Venus didn't exist