USTA Survey - Age Divisions

damazing

Rookie
I didn't see a thread on this, but I recently received an email from the USTA asking if I would take a survey.

What I divined out of the survey were two things -

1. They may want to adjust the titles for the Seniors/Super Seniors divisions

2. They may want to change the ages for the Masters (my preferred new name for the division)/Senior divisions.

I would hope that someone at the USTA could crunch the numbers to find the optimal ages for these two brackets. There were many good players on my Adult team that also played on a Senior division team and pretty much ruled the roost. Someone should be able to figure if they moved the ages down/up how many people would join the Adult and Senior/Masters/Super Senior divisions as well.

What are your thoughts? Should the Senior level be moved down to 40? 45? And should the Super Senior be moved to 65? If you play adult now at 40/45 years would you join a Masters division also if it was available?
(I would probably just so I could play more tennis)
 

Geezer Guy

Hall of Fame
I took that survey as well. I like having Seniors start at 50 but voted to have the next level start at 65 instead of 60.

I also voted to have Singles played in at least the 50+ age group.
 

Geezer Guy

Hall of Fame
And, for what it's worth, I'm not a fan of the "Masters" title. A - not sure it applies to women, and B - just because you're old doesn't mean you've mastered anything.
 

cak

Professional
I suggested 50s and 65s. Mostly because here in NorCal there is SS60 and SS65. I believe the 65s are a local league. I'm hoping the ages stay either as they are, or 50 and 65.
 

Kick_It

Semi-Pro
If this is in the context of leagues that could be a good thing.

As a 43 year old - it's hard to hang with a 19 or 20 year old in 4.5+ singles. If I'm playing someone 35 or older it's easier as we face similar court coverage and free time to play tennis issues ;-)
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
I voted for 45 and 60, and suggested 65 as an option instead of 60.

I like the name "Masters" for the 45 league. It sounds like you're a pro if you say you're playing in the "Masters". :)
 

OrangePower

Legend
I would definitely play in a 40+ league if it was offered. I'm not old enough for Seniors but have many friends / team-mates who are... and I get jealous that they get to play an extra league season! Also as a previous poster mentioned, it's tough to play singles against guys in their 20s.

So in addition to the regular adult league I would have:

40+ singles and doubles
50+ doubles and maybe singles (I think feelings would be mixed on this)
60+ doubles
 

cak

Professional
I believe they weren't intending to make extra leagues, they were just thinking of moving the age range for what is presently called seniors and super seniors.
 

raiden031

Legend
Its stupid to have so many senior leagues, and it takes away court time from the rest of the playing population. NTRP is supposed to remove the age disadvantage. A 60 year old 4.0 should still whoop a 20 year old 3.5 player....
 

Fedace

Banned
I just filled it out. i supported 40 and 60 divisions. and supported having only 1 singles and 1 extra doubles...
 

OrangePower

Legend
Its stupid to have so many senior leagues, and it takes away court time from the rest of the playing population. NTRP is supposed to remove the age disadvantage. A 60 year old 4.0 should still whoop a 20 year old 3.5 player....

Maybe, maybe not. Since NTRP does not differentiate between singles and doubles. And many older players specialize in doubles becuase of mobility and fitness issues. So I'd agree that in general a 60 year old 4.0 would be much better than a 20 yo 3.5 in doubles. But that same 20 yo 3.5 might actually be able to easily beat the older 4.0 in singles because of conditioning, ability to run, etc.

As it stands right now there is no league where older players can get to play singles against other older players.
 

JavierLW

Hall of Fame
I didn't see a thread on this, but I recently received an email from the USTA asking if I would take a survey.

What I divined out of the survey were two things -

1. They may want to adjust the titles for the Seniors/Super Seniors divisions

2. They may want to change the ages for the Masters (my preferred new name for the division)/Senior divisions.

I would hope that someone at the USTA could crunch the numbers to find the optimal ages for these two brackets. There were many good players on my Adult team that also played on a Senior division team and pretty much ruled the roost. Someone should be able to figure if they moved the ages down/up how many people would join the Adult and Senior/Masters/Super Senior divisions as well.

What are your thoughts? Should the Senior level be moved down to 40? 45? And should the Super Senior be moved to 65? If you play adult now at 40/45 years would you join a Masters division also if it was available?
(I would probably just so I could play more tennis)

I think they should leave the ages alone.

If they move the "super seniors" up to 65, that's really uncool..... (and it makes that division a lot smaller)

If they move the seniors to a younger age that makes it bigger, but it's really uncool for the existing seniors..... That would be one of those decisions that the league likely makes to gain more registrations versus actually caring about the quality of that division and it's existing participants.

As far as the titles I thought that was funny. Here in our city there is a Renegade League for 50 and over called "the Masters", so that's probably an appropriate name. (these guys get mad actually when you refer to them as a senior division)

As far as 60 and over, I suggested "Legends". We have a 60 and over Renegade league here as well and that's what it's called. (again they hate to be called "seniors" and "super seniors" was a real goofy name, it sounds like they are going to fly around or something, perhaps they are all taking MTM lessons.....)
 

raiden031

Legend
Maybe, maybe not. Since NTRP does not differentiate between singles and doubles. And many older players specialize in doubles becuase of mobility and fitness issues. So I'd agree that in general a 60 year old 4.0 would be much better than a 20 yo 3.5 in doubles. But that same 20 yo 3.5 might actually be able to easily beat the older 4.0 in singles because of conditioning, ability to run, etc.

As it stands right now there is no league where older players can get to play singles against other older players.

Given that there are no singles for senior players anyways, what is the point in separating them from adults in doubles play as well?

Also if they want to have one senior division, fine, but what is the point in having like 3 or 4 divisions (senior, super senior, super duper senior, etc.)? Basically I pay membership to use my club's facilities, yet all summer long (after adult league ends) every weeknight they have senior matches using up the courts. Its not like they only play during the day when normal adults are working...
 

GeoffB

Rookie
Its stupid to have so many senior leagues, and it takes away court time from the rest of the playing population. NTRP is supposed to remove the age disadvantage. A 60 year old 4.0 should still whoop a 20 year old 3.5 player....

I still think senior leagues are a good idea for some age ranges. A 65 year old playing 4.0 tennis might actually posses many of the skill characteristics of a 5.0 level player, and the type of match they would play against comparably skilled people in the same age range may have more of the characteristics of a high quality match than against 25yo 4.0 who makes up for skill with fitness, speed, and strength.

I wouldn't go too far with this, though. I don't doubt that I've lost a step at age 38, but obviously I should be able to find an NTRP level that works for me. I think the system's actually pretty good as it stands, with age-related ntrp levels starting around age 50, and age-related open tournaments starting around 30.
 

OrangePower

Legend
Given that there are no singles for senior players anyways, what is the point in separating them from adults in doubles play as well?

My point was that there *should* be singles for senior players, because they in general would not be competitive at singles in regular adult league against youger players at the same NTRP, even though they are competitive in dubs. Currently there is no league where seniors can play singles against other seniors, and senior vs young guy in singles is no fun. (Generalizing of course)

Also if they want to have one senior division, fine, but what is the point in having like 3 or 4 divisions (senior, super senior, super duper senior, etc.)? Basically I pay membership to use my club's facilities, yet all summer long (after adult league ends) every weeknight they have senior matches using up the courts. Its not like they only play during the day when normal adults are working...

I kinda agree and kinda disagree. It's great for seniors that they get to play more than one mens / womens league per year. I would like to have that option also! Your point is valid regarding the fairness of that option being extended only to seniors given the impact on court usage etc. So the solutions are either to curb the senior leagues, which is going to cause a lot of complaints from those used to playing them, or go the other way and create additional 'senior' leagues with lower age limits so that more players can take advantage of additional league seasons.
 

Spokewench

Semi-Pro
When you get older, you will see the reason for senior or age grouped leagues. I'm pretty lucky that my fitness and speed is still pretty good for a 49 year old (to turn 50 next year); but not everyone is that lucky or fit.

As I get older, I find the injuries that I have racked up over the years do affect how I play and my mobility a bit; and I am sure that this will continue to go downhill.

I raced road bikes and mountain bikes and we had age grouped categories within the ability categories so that older folks could compete against more like competitors. i.e. I raced in the 40 year old and 45 year old expert divisions before I retired from mountain bike racing . There is no way I was competitive against 25 year old experts (that were good) cause of my age.

So, you may have the skills, but may not be able to play enough due to injuries or need for your body to recover more often and thus, you may not be as sharp as you would want to be due to these limitations. I think senior leagues are a good thing and are important to the sport of tennis at the recreational competitive level.

spoke
 

darrinbaker00

Professional
My point was that there *should* be singles for senior players, because they in general would not be competitive at singles in regular adult league against youger players at the same NTRP, even though they are competitive in dubs. Currently there is no league where seniors can play singles against other seniors, and senior vs young guy in singles is no fun. (Generalizing of course)
Why not just play age-group tournaments? That's what I do.
 

raiden031

Legend
When you get older, you will see the reason for senior or age grouped leagues. I'm pretty lucky that my fitness and speed is still pretty good for a 49 year old (to turn 50 next year); but not everyone is that lucky or fit.

As I get older, I find the injuries that I have racked up over the years do affect how I play and my mobility a bit; and I am sure that this will continue to go downhill.

I raced road bikes and mountain bikes and we had age grouped categories within the ability categories so that older folks could compete against more like competitors. i.e. I raced in the 40 year old and 45 year old expert divisions before I retired from mountain bike racing . There is no way I was competitive against 25 year old experts (that were good) cause of my age.

So, you may have the skills, but may not be able to play enough due to injuries or need for your body to recover more often and thus, you may not be as sharp as you would want to be due to these limitations. I think senior leagues are a good thing and are important to the sport of tennis at the recreational competitive level.

spoke

Funny how many of the seniors battling injuries are playing in twice as many leagues as the younger adult (Adult, Adult mixed, Senior mixed, Senior, Super senior, etc.), playing in all of them.

I will buy OrangePower's point that a senior will decline in Singles much faster than they will in Doubles, so it makes sense to have Singles for Seniors. I can even buy having a senior league for the social setting to give retired folks an opportunity to play with others the same age. I just think there are too many senior divisions and its really unnecessary.

But still for a doubles player that is declining with age, NTRP can handle that by simply downgrading them to a lower level. Sure they might take a hit to the ego, but its just a game and as long as they are getting competitive matches, thats what matters. Everyone wants to avoid being stuck at the bottom half of a particular skill level, but it happens to adults just as well. At least for seniors they are also playing against other declining players. A younger adult could get bumped to 4.0 or 4.5 and sit at the bottom for 10+ years because they don't have time to practice and improve.
 

Romeo

New User
For Adults you have the Adult division including 18 to 50 year olds. No 49 year old woman wants to go out and play singles with some 18 year old girl that shows up in pig tails and can run wildly all of the court in 105 degree heat. Neither does the 18 year want to play with some "old lady".

I voted for: Adult 18, Senior/Master 40, Super Senior 60. I thought that divided up the age groups better so that players could have more fun and play more with their peers which is why we play tennis anyway, to play with our friends.

I also voted for singles in just the adult division. Very few older women want to play singles and in the area we live we have a hard enough time finding enough players for doubles let alone singles.
 
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Dave Mc

Rookie
When I took the survey, it asked me to enter the age divisions that I thought were appropriate. But when I tried to type in the text box it was disabled. Not sure if it's a javascript problem on their page, or a browser problem (IE 7 on Vista).

I was going to suggest they start the league minimum age at 21 instead of 18. Regardless if the state can trial you as an adult at 18, if you can't legally drink beer with your teammates, and have to get permission from your parents to go to sectionals, then you're still a boy, and don't belong in a men's league.
 

raiden031

Legend
For Adults you have the Adult division including 18 to 50 year olds. No 49 year old woman wants to go out and play singles with some 18 year old girl that shows up in pig tails and can run wildly all of the court in 105 degree heat. Neither does the 18 year want to play with some "old lady".

What difference does this make if they are both singles players at the same NTRP level?
 

raiden031

Legend
I was going to suggest they start the league minimum age at 21 instead of 18. Regardless if the state can trial you as an adult at 18, if you can't legally drink beer with your teammates, and have to get permission from your parents to go to sectionals, then you're still a boy, and don't belong in a men's league.

Seems pointless to me. Not everyone drinks anyways. Also, how is it different than having to ask your wife for permission to go to sectionals?
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
I was going to suggest they start the league minimum age at 21 instead of 18. Regardless if the state can trial you as an adult at 18, if you can't legally drink beer with your teammates, and have to get permission from your parents to go to sectionals, then you're still a boy, and don't belong in a men's league.
This actually makes a lot more sense than I initially thought.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I'm surprised that folks would challenge the idea of senior's league.

I mean, we have separate leagues for juniors? Why? Lots of reasons, I would guess. Personally, I have no interest in playing a match against someone 35 years younger. They will hit the ball harder and be faster and it is simply not a level playing field. I would imagine seniors would feel the same way playing against someone who is 30.

As for the idea of having singles as part of a seniors league . . . the senior woman who is willing and able to play singles is a rare beast indeed. I know just two women who play seniors and also play singles. It's just way too much pounding for the rest of us. Maybe if they changed the rules to make the matches shorter (pro sets), but not if you have to play singles for two hours.

Consider this, though. In one thread, we have two people insulting older women as slow, past their sell by date, and having unattractive skin. And in this thread we have someone questioning why seniors might want their own league. Maybe so they can be treated with respect.
 

Romeo

New User
What difference does this make if they are both singles players at the same NTRP level?

I probably should have said "no one around here wants to play ...". The women I play with are from the ages of 39 to 66 with most being over 50 and are playing for fun with friends and exercise. It is just not a lot of fun to most of them to play with someone 30 years younger than they are. Being the same NTRP level makes no difference.

I am sure that you might find a few women that like to play someone that could be close to their granddaughter's age but that would be the exception.

Someday you may feel the sameway and will then understand.
 

raiden031

Legend
Consider this, though. In one thread, we have two people insulting older women as slow, past their sell by date, and having unattractive skin. And in this thread we have someone questioning why seniors might want their own league. Maybe so they can be treated with respect.

I think I'm the only one challenging senior leagues. Because its unfair that I can never find a court at my club (where I'm a paying member) because of all the senior leagues going on during the summer.

I don't see how this is disrespectful in any way, shape, or form. I think its disrespectful that senior players would feel that I'm not qualified to play with them even though we may be competitive simply because I'm still young and I have nothing in common with them socially.

I mean again, if you are the SAME NTRP LEVEL as someone 20 years younger than you, how is the playing field unlevel?

It is just not a lot of fun to most of them to play with someone 30 years younger than they are. Being the same NTRP level makes no difference.

Proof that the elder like to discriminate against the young when it comes to tennis. Playing in the adult league, I have no choice as to the age of my opponents. Most of them happen to be between the ages of 45 and 60 anyways.
 
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Romeo

New User
I think I'm the only one challenging senior leagues. Because its unfair that I can never find a court at my club (where I'm a paying member) because of all the senior leagues going on during the summer.

I don't see how this is disrespectful in any way, shape, or form. I think its disrespectful that senior players would feel that I'm not qualified to play with them even though we may be competitive simply because I'm still young and I have nothing in common with them socially.

I mean again, if you are the SAME NTRP LEVEL as someone 20 years younger than you, how is the playing field unlevel?



Proof that the elder like to discriminate against the young when it comes to tennis. Playing in the adult league, I have no choice as to the age of my opponents. Most of them happen to be between the ages of 45 and 60 anyways.

We are not talking just 20 years we are talking up to 31 years, 18 to 49. I am fine with the 20 years. That's why I think they should be 19 to 40, 40 to 60, and 60 and above.
 

raiden031

Legend
We are not talking just 20 years we are talking up to 31 years, 18 to 49. I am fine with the 20 years. That's why I think they should be 19 to 40, 40 to 60, and 60 and above.

So you're saying the adult league should exclude seniors? It would be a little more fair than to say seniors get to play everything, but then they can exclude younger adults at will.

But still I don't see why younger and older adults need to be separated. I have no problem playing a 60 year old, and in fact I welcome it because they are going to show me a different style than someone my own age. I'd rather play a variety of opponents than play people who are all exactly like me.

I'm for having NTRP divisions that are more open to age, as well having age divisions that are more open with regards to skill. If you want to play with people of the same skill, play NTRP, if you want to play against people of the same age, play age group. Seems very pointless to combine the two.
 

TenniseaWilliams

Professional
I think the leagues would be better with an "open" rather than an adult league. No lower age limit. Maybe if the grandparents show up to watch I can hang out with them later!

Other than that I agree with the current age limits, I doubt there is much proof that NTRP doesn't work well for most people into their 50's. It is not a flattering process, however.

+1 to Raiden that any exclusive league sucks when courts are hard to find.
 

LuckyR

Legend
The USTA's survey can't be answered correctly without the information about the popularity of the age divisions. Without that info you don't know what "problem" the USTA is trying to solve by fiddling with the divisions. Are there too many seniors, too few? Too many seniors not playing in the senior divisions?
 

Romeo

New User
I just gave my opinion about the survey that's all it is, an opinion. Everyone has one.

I think of the "Adult Division" just like an "Open Division" at a tennis tournament. Everyone regardless of age or ability can play. Just like in a regular tournament the other divisions have been formed because the general population of 50 to 60 year old tennis players can not compete with 20 year old players.

This is just league tennis to play with your friends and peers.

The USTA has divided Jr. Tennis into age groups 10, 12, 14, 16, and 18 so that 10 year olds do not have to play 18 year olds. They have regular tournaments all of the country every weekend that are divided up by age, ratings, sex, yet they still have an open division for everyone.

In tennis they have developed divisions. Some of the divisions have been made by age and some ability. They have never, to my knowledge, banned a player for playing above their level or their age group. They have, however, tried to keep them from playing below their level.

I see it like a hill. The Juniors are climbing up, The Adults in both Leagues and Tournaments are on the top of the hill and the Seniors are climbing down.
 

raiden031

Legend
I just gave my opinion about the survey that's all it is, an opinion. Everyone has one.

I think of the "Adult Division" just like an "Open Division" at a tennis tournament. Everyone regardless of age or ability can play. Just like in a regular tournament the other divisions have been formed because the general population of 50 to 60 year old tennis players can not compete with 20 year old players.

This is just league tennis to play with your friends and peers.

The USTA has divided Jr. Tennis into age groups 10, 12, 14, 16, and 18 so that 10 year olds do not have to play 18 year olds. They have regular tournaments all of the country every weekend that are divided up by age, ratings, sex, yet they still have an open division for everyone.

In tennis they have developed divisions. Some of the divisions have been made by age and some ability. They have never, to my knowledge, banned a player for playing above their level or their age group. They have, however, tried to keep them from playing below their level.

I see it like a hill. The Juniors are climbing up, The Adults in both Leagues and Tournaments are on the top of the hill and the Seniors are climbing down.

So you don't even play USTA adult league....I see. My whole point is that an adult league 3.5 player is competitive with senior 3.5, super senior 3.5, and super duper senior 3.5 players, so there is no reason to have 3 or more 3.5 senior divisions, taking away opportunities from younger adults. I could understand having ONE senior division at each level for the people who insist on playing with others their age, but thats it.

Orange made a point that if a senior player plays both doubles and singles, than their singles game is likely to be inferior to their doubles game, which is a valid point. However for singles and doubles specialists, this is not a factor.
 

Jim A

Professional
Raiden, I thought you self-rated at 3.0 and then proceeded to win a National Championship and get bumped up 2 levels? Maybe I'm wrong on that info?
 

raiden031

Legend
Raiden, I thought you self-rated at 3.0 and then proceeded to win a National Championship and get bumped up 2 levels? Maybe I'm wrong on that info?

Yes you are incorrect.

I self-rated at 3.0 in 2007 and went 4-4 in singles, and can't remember if I played any doubles that year without looking it up.

In 2008 I was a much better player and as a computer-rated 3.0, made it to Nationals...

But whats the relevance to this thread?
 
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Romeo

New User
I really was not going to continue, however, I must.

I played both Adult and Senior mostly because they can not find enough to play the 3.5 Adult Women's team in our town and I want them to have a team. Last year I told them I would play but I thought the younger players should play the singles since we were playing on their team so that they could play. Not the thing that happened. I played singles twice. The first time I played out came a girl that had just graduated from college where she played on the Div II team. She had played league before she was in college so when she graduated she was able to play 4.0. She had played twice in 2008 and lost in a close tie break to a player that was bumped to 4.5 and lost to another in two close sets that was also bumped to 4.5. Somehow at the end of 2008 her rating went back to 3.5?? She went strongly undefeted in 2009 until her third match at Sectionals when she lost to a much weaker player when it was known the team would not advance. She was a nice girl and I had fun playing her but that is not what I joined a league for. The second match I played a girl was probably 25 years younger it was 105 degrees and no shade.

I joined the team to play with my friends and have fun, played those two matches for the team but I was upset the whole time. Since last summer I have started playing singles and have gained the confidence I need so that if I am put in that position next year I will have the ammunition I need.

You will have more people going out for leagues not less if they know they will be playing in groups they are going to enjoy. We have had to default lines because someone refused to play singles knowing they were going out to the same conditions I did.
 

raiden031

Legend
I really was not going to continue, however, I must.

I played both Adult and Senior mostly because they can not find enough to play the 3.5 Adult Women's team in our town and I want them to have a team. Last year I told them I would play but I thought the younger players should play the singles since we were playing on their team so that they could play. Not the thing that happened. I played singles twice. The first time I played out came a girl that had just graduated from college where she played on the Div II team. She had played league before she was in college so when she graduated she was able to play 4.0. She had played twice in 2008 and lost in a close tie break to a player that was bumped to 4.5 and lost to another in two close sets that was also bumped to 4.5. Somehow at the end of 2008 her rating went back to 3.5?? She went strongly undefeted in 2009 until her third match at Sectionals when she lost to a much weaker player when it was known the team would not advance. She was a nice girl and I had fun playing her but that is not what I joined a league for. The second match I played a girl was probably 25 years younger it was 105 degrees and no shade.

I joined the team to play with my friends and have fun, played those two matches for the team but I was upset the whole time. Since last summer I have started playing singles and have gained the confidence I need so that if I am put in that position next year I will have the ammunition I need.

You will have more people going out for leagues not less if they know they will be playing in groups they are going to enjoy. We have had to default lines because someone refused to play singles knowing they were going out to the same conditions I did.

Ok so you played a sandbagger and then in 105 degree heat...really that makes it necessary to have a multitude of senior leagues?

I'm 28, I got bumped from 3.0 to 4.0 and went 1-7 in singles. I got bageled probably 2-3 times and breadsticked probably the same number of times. I don't whine that the players had college experience or whatever other way I can say I had a disadvantage. 4 of the players who creamed me got bumped up to 4.5. I'm pretty sure the youngest player who beat me was 30, and the oldest was probably in his 50s.

It might've sucked losing like that, but I realized it was 100% on me to better my game, not find an alternative division that only contains people who can't cream me.
 
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Romeo

New User
Don't think I whined, I said I had fun playing her just not what I want to do. The one thing the seniors start doing is realize they don't have to do what they don't want to just for fun and they do not have to defend their opinions anymore.
 

escii_35

Rookie
#1. Lack of singles slots for the older crowd.

This is a huge gripe I hear from the 45-55 set. Each year I send a letter to the USTA asking for a senior singles. Hopefully by the time I get there one will be included.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Raiden,

First, I didn't mean to imply that *you* were being disrespectful. Far from it. The problem was with a couple of other young men on another thread.

Second, I do agree with you on one point. In our league, seniors was always in the summer, after adult spring season concluded. Most seniors played in both the adult spring and the subsequent senior season. These senior matches occurred in the summer, when indoor courts went unused anyway.

Now the league has changed things to have the senior season in January. That means January now has seniors, combo and mixed (plus ladies day).

There are two problems with this. One is that you now have more people vying for precious and limited court time for leagues, as you say. The other is that some seniors are skipping combo and mixed and choosing seniors instead, which has made the combo and mixed leagues smaller. Which means I will get less league tennis because there are fewer mixed and combo matches. I wish this change had not been made.

Regarding the idea of having just one NTRP scale for everyone regardless of age or gender . . . some people adamantly do not want to play with some much younger/older or a different gender.

I think it is wise for USTA to accommodate this. As things currently stand, someone like you who doesn't care about age/gender can interact with others who feel the same way (combo, adult, mixed). At the same time, those who do feel differently can seek out only seniors or same gender play.

Please understand that, while you are a Nice Guy, there are plenty of people who are openly disdainful of someone who is female and/or older. Personally, I like to have a nice time when I play, and if my partner or my opponents do not respect me because of my gender or age, I would be grateful if they had options so we are not forced to share a court.
 

raiden031

Legend
Raiden,

First, I didn't mean to imply that *you* were being disrespectful. Far from it. The problem was with a couple of other young men on another thread.

Second, I do agree with you on one point. In our league, seniors was always in the summer, after adult spring season concluded. Most seniors played in both the adult spring and the subsequent senior season. These senior matches occurred in the summer, when indoor courts went unused anyway.

Now the league has changed things to have the senior season in January. That means January now has seniors, combo and mixed (plus ladies day).

There are two problems with this. One is that you now have more people vying for precious and limited court time for leagues, as you say. The other is that some seniors are skipping combo and mixed and choosing seniors instead, which has made the combo and mixed leagues smaller. Which means I will get less league tennis because there are fewer mixed and combo matches. I wish this change had not been made.

Regarding the idea of having just one NTRP scale for everyone regardless of age or gender . . . some people adamantly do not want to play with some much younger/older or a different gender.

I think it is wise for USTA to accommodate this. As things currently stand, someone like you who doesn't care about age/gender can interact with others who feel the same way (combo, adult, mixed). At the same time, those who do feel differently can seek out only seniors or same gender play.

Please understand that, while you are a Nice Guy, there are plenty of people who are openly disdainful of someone who is female and/or older. Personally, I like to have a nice time when I play, and if my partner or my opponents do not respect me because of my gender or age, I would be grateful if they had options so we are not forced to share a court.

The thing that irks me about that whole thing is that people don't like being discriminated against, but don't mind discriminating against others. If adult leagues decided you must be under 50 to play, then the seniors would probably throw a fit because they can't play in the adult league.

I was purposely not bringing in the idea of gender-less rating system and co-ed leagues, because I realize there is a large number of both men and women who would refuse to play against someone of the opposite gender for one reason or another.

But can anyone on this board provide me a reason why it is necessary to have both senior and super-senior leagues?
 

Geezer Guy

Hall of Fame
Wow - hot topic! Gotta say, as a Senior (55) myself, I enjoy playing singles against competitors of all ages. I agree with whoever said that within an NTRP division the competition is pretty level. Victory does NOT necessarily (or even usually, maybe) to to the younger competitor. I've beaten players half my age, and been whipped by players 20 years my senior. And, there are plenty of other guys about my age that enjoy singles more than doubles.

I admit that I see a lot more senior men playing singles than I do senior women. Don't really know why that is. You'd think that with women living longer - presumably being in better shape - that it would be the other way around.

And, to answer another question posted, I enjoy playing "adult" level because of the intense competition. While there are occasionally some fun moments, it's often pretty serious stuff. I enjoy playing at the "senior" level because it's pretty much the opposite. Sure, it's competitive, but there's a bit more of friendly trash talking and joking around. The points tend to last a bit longer, and it's fun for once not being the oldest guy on the court.

I could see a point of having the "older" senior league (the 65+ league) play during the day. Most of them would presumably be retired, or at least able to control their schedule to get a certain weekday timeslot off if they still work. I'd think a lot of clubs would be thrilled to rent out 3 or 5 courts on a weekday morning or afternoon consistently.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
The thing that irks me about that whole thing is that people don't like being discriminated against, but don't mind discriminating against others. If adult leagues decided you must be under 50 to play, then the seniors would probably throw a fit because they can't play in the adult league.

Mmmm, I'm not sure what this means.

Adult league is limited to those over 18; junior league is limited to those under some age or other, and senior is limited to those over 50.

As far as this idea that someone is being discriminated against . . . there is nothing wrong or illegal about discrimination unless it is illegal discrimination. If you don't want to rent a car to someone under age 25, you don't have to. There are all sorts of discriminatory decisions in life that are perfectly fine, and deciding to divide tennis players according to age is not at all offensive IMHO.


But can anyone on this board provide me a reason why it is necessary to have both senior and super-senior leagues?

I can't answer as to super-senior, as I've never seen a super-senior match. I know that super-senior is very small, so I don't see why anyone would care if people that age did or did not have a league. Also, I would imagine that the decline in physical ability is quite prounounced when you compare a 50 year old to a 65-70 year old.

Which is a depressing thing when you are pushing 50 and already falling apart.

You know, my county used to have an "ESL" league. This was before I started playing, and I believe it no longer exists. I assume ESL meant English as a Second Language, and a review of the roster showed a high proportion of players had Asian or Latino last names. So perhaps my guess was correct.

I suppose one could see that as discriminatory. Me, I figured it was no skin off my nose. If I had to live in a foreign country where English was not commonly spoken and someone started an "English" league, I would be eternally grateful.
 

raiden031

Legend
Mmmm, I'm not sure what this means.

Adult league is limited to those over 18; junior league is limited to those under some age or other, and senior is limited to those over 50.

As far as this idea that someone is being discriminated against . . . there is nothing wrong or illegal about discrimination unless it is illegal discrimination. If you don't want to rent a car to someone under age 25, you don't have to. There are all sorts of discriminatory decisions in life that are perfectly fine, and deciding to divide tennis players according to age is not at all offensive IMHO.




I can't answer as to super-senior, as I've never seen a super-senior match. I know that super-senior is very small, so I don't see why anyone would care if people that age did or did not have a league. Also, I would imagine that the decline in physical ability is quite prounounced when you compare a 50 year old to a 65-70 year old.

Which is a depressing thing when you are pushing 50 and already falling apart.

You know, my county used to have an "ESL" league. This was before I started playing, and I believe it no longer exists. I assume ESL meant English as a Second Language, and a review of the roster showed a high proportion of players had Asian or Latino last names. So perhaps my guess was correct.

I suppose one could see that as discriminatory. Me, I figured it was no skin off my nose. If I had to live in a foreign country where English was not commonly spoken and someone started an "English" league, I would be eternally grateful.

I think my point about senior leagues is that it negatively effects me because I cannot use the courts so they can have multiple senior leagues.
 

raiden031

Legend
But someone who doesn't play league can have the same complaint. Leagues hog all the playing slots.

But at least they have the opportunity to play in the league, assuming they are adults. I don't know whats out there for juniors, but I know more of their programs are after school or on weekends and don't seem to interfere as much with evening court time.

I think its silly how there are less playing opportunities for the majority age range of adult players. Or maybe it just so happens that the majority of USTA players are seniors and thats why they do this.

And on the segregation of groups into various tennis divisions, its easy to be for it when you are not a group that is excluded. For example, you're approaching senior age, you can play the ladies day leagues, etc. You have nothing to gain by objecting to these divisions, whereas I would be happy if they created more adult divisions which are open to more players.
 

Geezer Guy

Hall of Fame
I think my point about senior leagues is that it negatively effects me because I cannot use the courts so they can have multiple senior leagues.

That should be a complaint addressed to the facility. I could address a similar complaint at my facility, because the courts are taken up with juniors between the hours for 4 & 8 PM.
 

raiden031

Legend
That should be a complaint addressed to the facility. I could address a similar complaint at my facility, because the courts are taken up with juniors between the hours for 4 & 8 PM.

I could, but I thought it was worthwhile to bring up the debate on the board anyways since it was kinda relevant for the thread.
 
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