Lead tape placement qns

xFullCourtTenniSx · Nov 25, 2009

Ross K said:
^^^^

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=295914&page=4

According to some it's an old Rad Tour, or a PT630, or an LM Rad Tour, etc. I now agree with vsbabolat in the thread ^ that it's probably a modern Rad mold with obviously his own lay up, customization specs, etc... as you can see, this has been discussed at great length.

The thing I love and really gets me (and to some extent I would like to mimic it), is his frame hits a massive sledgehammer-hard ball and yet with its supposed 51 stiffness RA feels like a fluffy pillow!

R.

Hmmm... Why not play with a sledgehammer? :twisted:

Hmmm... I would say to generate that kind of ball, you would need a great, big swing as well as a lot of weight in the head. Seeing that swingweight of his, he must have quite a bit of lead around the top of the hoop, and some at 3&9 for whatever else is needed to maintain stability. After that, he probably adds some counterbalance around the top of the grip to get that balance. I really doubt it's that headlight though. I once heard it's only a few points headlight.

Then again, my Yonex racket is very close to those specs with an overgrip (and Djokovic uses 2). I don't think I generate anything close to a sledge hammer ball, but I do get insane amounts of spin and therefore depth control.

You'd need a pretty light racket with a moderately headlight balance to recreate a racket with those specs. (I used a Yonex RDS 003) The problem is that you'd probably create a very spinny ball as opposed to a "sledgehammer" shot. Though with the right technique, I suppose you could create a sledgehammer shot, but that requires the power of a pro, a tight tension, and a shot that only uses moderate topspin. Djokovic actually falls under all 3 categories. Haha. Also, his using natural gut in the mains could account for some of it, since that generates crazy pop when you really take a cut at the ball. Also, he has a poly in the crosses at a high tension for control. If it were Federer using Djokovic's racket, he'd probably throw out crazy spins like Nadal.

So to generate a ball like Djokovic, you need a rather heavily polarized racket (using a light flexible racket as a base) with some lead at 3&9 for stability, string it up at high tensions with a good poly in the crosses and natural gut in the mains, then take a massive rip at the ball, aiming for maybe moderate topspin at most. Oh, and don't forget the 2 overgrips.

I personally can't pull it off, because I use heavy spin and low tensions. I do know someone who could probably pull it off, but he already generates a sledgehammer ball with a stock n95 18c, strung at 62 pounds with a relatively stiff synthetic gut or fresh NXT (whichever feels tighter at the moment), whenever he takes a serious cut at the ball. Actually... Scratch that... It feels like a bowling ball that has been condensed to the size of a tennis ball. He hits flat though, and swings pretty fast. If you're in that category, then using a polarized racket, you can probably generate a ball like Djokovic (though only for your level of play; you won't be #3 in the world). I'd say you need to be a minimal 4.5-5.0 to pull it off. I can't see a 4.0 or 3.5 swinging anywhere near the speeds required to make their opponent or hitting partner say "WTF?! IT FEELS LIKE THE BALL IS A BOWLING BALL!" Also, like I said, you must prefer high tensions (I'm talking 60 minimal) and actually perform very well with that.

usb92 · Nov 26, 2009

Has anyone tried polarizing their AG100?

TennisTypeR · Dec 7, 2009

Hey xfull,
Have you played with the n6.1 95. What do you think of its weight distribution is it polarized or depolarized. And how can you tell if its polarized or depolarized just by swinging it? Thanks

psycho0 · Dec 7, 2009

I'm wondering if there's a difference between at 3" double layer lead strip vs 6" single layer lead strip placed at 3/9? Will they play different?

Buckethead · Dec 7, 2009

xFullCourtTenniSx said:
8 points headlight=1 inch headlight, therefore 1 point headlight=1/8 inch headlight.

I recommend against using Unique's lead weights. Granted they aren't that bad, but when you want total control over how much weight you're adding, a cooler and more professional look, and generally just avoiding the weights falling off, stick with Gamma lead tape (1/4 inch width is the best).

Dang, no Prestige?! You make my heart cry... Haha. Seriously if it weren't for the grip and me already committed to my K90, I would so totally be all over the Prestige line of rackets! I'd either use the pro or the midsize depending on whether I like the 18x20 string pattern or not. I'd probably end up being more of a Safin fan as well, and would probably try his setup (though I'd probably end up with a polarized setup anyways).

Man,i put about 3 g only at 7" and it's already better the feel of maneuverability.You said adding weight can't improve that,but i found it better now,and i'm probably going to add maybe another 5g sometime later and see how it goes.I built myself a balance board,and more or less the balance right now is at around 6.5 ,7 HL,i don't know if it is that accurate.
thanks for the advice,worked out perfectly for me.

xFullCourtTenniSx · Dec 9, 2009

TennisTypeR said:
Hey xfull,
Have you played with the n6.1 95. What do you think of its weight distribution is it polarized or depolarized. And how can you tell if its polarized or depolarized just by swinging it? Thanks

Yes. I've played with the nSix.One 95 (16c) and love it. Granted I was using the ones my friends had so the grip sizes, grip types, and strings weren't to my liking, but it's the only other racket I feel like I can be 100% comfortable with aside from my [K]Six.One Tour 90. People may say that the closest thing to that racket would be the [K]Six.One 95 (which version I'm not 100% sure), but I disagree. The main problem I had with the K6.1 95 is the excessive power and lack of control, all which I believe to be caused by the stiffness of the frame. You also feel very little on contact, it's rock solid, but that's a good thing to a lot of people. It's a very solid frame once you get past the excessive power and stiffness. I hit too hard for that racket, so the ball will get away from me. The relative flexibility from the n6.1 95 helps a LOT in controlling the depth of my shots and retaining the feel I look for (which is rather hard to describe; something like a combination of rock solidness with a dead, 0 bounce feeling and harsh feedback so I know exactly what happens on every shot).

I liked the nBlade 98 as well because it had 8.5/10 on rock solidness (excluding weight issues; including those it'd be 6.5/10 just cause of lack of power and heft, not actual stability problems), 9/10 on a dead stringbed, but 2/10 on the feedback. Weight would've improved the racket a lot, but the feedback wasn't great though the control was excellent (due to an absolute absence of power). The n6.1 95 is 7/10 on rock solid, 8.5/10 on dead stringbed, and 7/10 on feedback. It also feels too light for me and goes through the air too quickly, but lead can fix that, and the strings can fix the other 2 categories well enough to get them up where I want. The K6.1 95 is 10/10 rock solid, 9/10 on dead stringbed, and 5/10 on feedback. The K90 is 9/10 rock solid, 10/10 on dead stringbed, and 10/10 on feedback. The only reason the K90 isn't a 10/10 on rock solidness is because it's got such a tiny head and you're bound to get the frame a few times. :wink:

The n6.1 95's weight distribution sort of reminds me of a heavier nBlade 98. The head feels REALLY light, but you can feel it has much more substance than the nBlade 98 up there. But it still needs more weight up there for more power. The control is all there, but there's no power like the K90. I can feel the 7 gram difference, and it's MASSIVE to me. Then again, the last time I used a n6.1 95, my friend had me string it at 62 lbs, so that's a factor as well, but tension makes no difference to me if the mass is there to supply the power. High tensions on light rackets is about as dead as you can get for your stringbed, which my friend needs in order to control his massive flat bombs. I'm trying to incorporate more spin into my game, so my tensions have dropped over time from 60 to around 50. Bottom line, the racket needs more weight just like the nBlade 98. As for it's weight distribution, it felt REALLY low on the racket, like handle low. You swing the racket and feel almost nothing on the head. So I'd say it's the perfect customization platform for any kind of customization you want to do. You can add lead anywhere to the head and the racket will get better, which is kind of hard to imagine, since it's such a great racket to begin with. So I guess it would be more akin to a depolarized setup... Just cause there's NOTHING up top to be felt or used.

As for how can you tell when you swing the thing, it's a matter of where do you feel a giant mass of weight on the thing, like what point does the racket feel the heaviest? If you take a nSix.One Tour, and swung it, you notice there's a heavy amount of mass around the top of the pallet, and it really slows you down. Then you swing a K90, and don't notice it, but still feel that the head has quite a bit of mass on it, but the racket still feels pretty even. It's hard to describe it, but that would make the K90 relatively polarized compared to the n90. Just swing it as quickly as you can with proper form and try to feel where the racket feels the heaviest.

But throw in some quality natural gut in the mains with Luxilon Alu Power Rough in the crosses at a low tension for feel and spin then maybe 6-8 grams for extra power and spin to make it a dream to play with. Not quite sure where I'd want to put it though. Maybe under the bumper guard? That's usually worked out well for me as I love the access to spin and power that gives. Maybe I'd put some under the bumper and the rest at 3&9? But I guess I'd stick to under the bumper for that clean, professional look. :twisted: Oh, and also a leather grip and a white Wilson Pro Overgrip on a L3 grip.

psycho0 said:
I'm wondering if there's a difference between at 3" double layer lead strip vs 6" single layer lead strip placed at 3/9? Will they play different?

Yes, but not too noticeably unless you're very in-tuned with your equipment. The longer strips should enlarge the sweetspot more than the other method, while the shorter strips should help more with reducing twist at impact. You won't notice it though unless you're very sensitive with your equipment or you went to the extremes with it in terms of weight and size. I'd stick with medium length. I don't like the strips too long, and I like layering, but I hate the look of short strips. Just personal preference.

Buckethead said:
Man,i put about 3 g only at 7" and it's already better the feel of maneuverability.You said adding weight can't improve that,but i found it better now,and i'm probably going to add maybe another 5g sometime later and see how it goes.

Well... All common sense and logic point the other way on the subject, but sometimes it does feel a tad more maneuverable when you have some of the leverage closer to your hand. Glad it worked out well for you though.

bdudaday · Dec 9, 2009

Great posts. Any advice?

Hi Guys,

I really enjoyed reading your post. I had no idea of the complexity of polarized and de-polarized. I've put up some pics of how I have my YouTek Speed MP weighted. 10 and 2 then 2 strips under the head guard and a bit under the grip. Can any recommend a better placement? Maybe more under the grip. Also does anyone have a good shop in LA that does this.

My stick:
http://www.stuffbox.com/Box/?bid=50023

psycho0 · Dec 9, 2009

Thanks for all your input xfullcourt! I have another question. I'm thinking of adding lead at 3/9 on my MGPP. I added 4g in total before (2g per side, 4" strips) but found it to play kind of sluggish. I want to cut down the weight by half, therefore 2g in total at 3/9. So I'm wondering if it's possible to have 4" strip on only 1 edge per side rather than 2 strips. Will this interfere with the racquet head balance and cause weird twisting? Or is it better to just shorten the strips to 2" and place lead on all 4 edges at 3/9. I hope that made sense. Thanks!

xFullCourtTenniSx · Dec 9, 2009

bdudaday said:
Hi Guys,

I really enjoyed reading your post. I had no idea of the complexity of polarized and de-polarized. I've put up some pics of how I have my YouTek Speed MP weighted. 10 and 2 then 2 strips under the head guard and a bit under the grip. Can any recommend a better placement? Maybe more under the grip. Also does anyone have a good shop in LA that does this.

My stick:
http://www.stuffbox.com/Box/?bid=50023

What are you looking for? There are billions of setups for billions of different people. We aren't psychic in knowing what those billions of people need and want, so some idea of it as well as feedback would be nice. :wink:

And uhhh... My house isn't a shop but I do this stuff... Haha. My latest project is my dad's Ozone Pro Tour. He didn't like the power level or control on the thing (very erratic in his opinion). He's going to extend the racket length himself when he gets the chance (since I'm not a bloody carpenter), but I'm going to get to work and see if I can improve the performance in it's current standard length.

psycho0 said:
Thanks for all your input xfullcourt! I have another question. I'm thinking of adding lead at 3/9 on my MGPP. I added 4g in total before (2g per side, 4" strips) but found it to play kind of sluggish. I want to cut down the weight by half, therefore 2g in total at 3/9. So I'm wondering if it's possible to have 4" strip on only 1 edge per side rather than 2 strips. Will this interfere with the racquet head balance and cause weird twisting? Or is it better to just shorten the strips to 2" and place lead on all 4 edges at 3/9. I hope that made sense. Thanks!

Don't be cheap on your equipment, use the 2" length.

xFullCourtTenniSx · Dec 9, 2009

psycho0 said:
Thanks for all your input xfullcourt! I have another question. I'm thinking of adding lead at 3/9 on my MGPP. I added 4g in total before (2g per side, 4" strips) but found it to play kind of sluggish. I want to cut down the weight by half, therefore 2g in total at 3/9. So I'm wondering if it's possible to have 4" strip on only 1 edge per side rather than 2 strips. Will this interfere with the racquet head balance and cause weird twisting? Or is it better to just shorten the strips to 2" and place lead on all 4 edges at 3/9. I hope that made sense. Thanks!

Or you can get the 1/2" width tape and put it over the grommet holes on the inside and punch holes through them to allow the grommets to get through. That's what James Blake did. I think tenniswarehouse showed a picture of that.

Edit:

Greg Raven · Dec 9, 2009

xFullCourtTenniSx said:
[...] And according to Greg Raven's site, the balance is 32 cm. Not quite sure if he uses standard length though. [...]

One of the beauties of measuring balance in centimeters from the butt cap is that the racquet length doesn't matter. Measuring balance in points locks you into a dead end where you make it difficult to impossible to compare one racquet to another.

xFullCourtTenniSx · Dec 9, 2009

Greg Raven said:
One of the beauties of measuring balance in centimeters from the butt cap is that the racquet length doesn't matter. Measuring balance in points locks you into a dead end where you make it difficult to impossible to compare one racquet to another.

This is in relation to the Djokovic setup right?

Well... If it's extended length, the placement of the lead should be different to match the specs to take into account the added length.

I mean, it's easier to get a 12.5 ounce racket into the 370s for swingweight if it's extended length. And a lot of two handers are using extended length handles, so it's just something I wonder about.

Does he use a standard length racket or an extended? I heard he changed rackets in early 2009 from the Pro to the 18x20? If he really does use a standard length then there must be a heavy amount of lead under the bumperguard.

ManuGinobili · Dec 9, 2009

How do you think the 7in from the butt equation change with the presence of an overgrip (the thing is like 5 grams right)?

xFullCourtTenniSx · Dec 9, 2009

ManuGinobili said:
How do you think the 7in from the butt equation change with the presence of an overgrip (the thing is like 5 grams right)?

It doesn't change. Haha.

If you go with the procedure put up in the like I posted, you just follow that equation. If you don't, then just put it at the 7 inch mark, cause that seems to work well for most people.

AlpineCadet · Dec 9, 2009

Lead tape is removeable, not sure if you guys knew that.

ManuGinobili · Dec 10, 2009

Reason I asked because I had 6g total at 3&9, then 1g (2 1-in strips) to counter balance at the bottom of the throat (plus an overgrip), and the racket just hit weird, timing was just off. After 1 set, I moved it up a few inches and it actually felt more solid. Thus I thought that moving it way down to the 7in point could multiply the erratic-ity... Gonna try it anyway!

AlpineCadet · Dec 10, 2009

I guess everyone is asleep and can't type anymore.

Greg Raven · Dec 10, 2009

xFullCourtTenniSx said:
This is in relation to the Djokovic setup right?

Well... If it's extended length, the placement of the lead should be different to match the specs to take into account the added length. [...]

No, this is for any racquet. The only thing racquet length changes in the context of this discussion is that longer racquets present more opportunities for placement of additional mass(es), i.e., you can put lead farther from the butt cap.

xFullCourtTenniSx · Dec 11, 2009

Greg Raven said:
No, this is for any racquet. The only thing racquet length changes in the context of this discussion is that longer racquets present more opportunities for placement of additional mass(es), i.e., you can put lead farther from the butt cap.

Yeah, but the general concept of placing lead at 3&9, 12, or around the top of the hoop will inevitably have a greater effect on the swingweight because of the added distance from the buttcap. If you place the lead at the same distance away from the buttcap, it's fine, but most people will generally place them in the general 3&9, 12, or across the top of the hoop.

PED · Dec 12, 2009

xFullCourtTenniSx said:
I personally can't pull it off, because I use heavy spin and low tensions. I do know someone who could probably pull it off, but he already generates a sledgehammer ball with a stock n95 18c, strung at 62 pounds with a relatively stiff synthetic gut or fresh NXT (whichever feels tighter at the moment), whenever he takes a serious cut at the ball. Actually... Scratch that... It feels like a bowling ball that has been condensed to the size of a tennis ball. He hits flat though, and swings pretty fast. If you're in that category, then using a polarized racket, you can probably generate a ball like Djokovic (though only for your level of play; you won't be #3 in the world). I'd say you need to be a minimal 4.5-5.0 to pull it off. I can't see a 4.0 or 3.5 swinging anywhere near the speeds required to make their opponent or hitting partner say "WTF?! IT FEELS LIKE THE BALL IS A BOWLING BALL!" Also, like I said, you must prefer high tensions (I'm talking 60 minimal) and actually perform very well with that.

I really enjoy your comments in this section. Just curious where does the high tension fit into the equation for the "bowling ball" type of ball.

A local 5.5 I hit with hits a similar ball. He uses a bone stock MGMP but with poly strung at 61 on a constant pull machine. As regards racquet/string setup, is the "bowling ball effect" (assuming a high level of skill) a function of the high tension simply adding control to the ultra fast swing or am I missing something else?

NineEleven · Dec 12, 2009

guys ho much lead tape do you guys recommend adding?

is there a limit?

and how long are th strips you used?

i have added mine 5 inches at 3 and 9 position as well as 10 inches which i stuff under the butt cap.

xFullCourtTenniSx · Dec 12, 2009

PED said:
I really enjoy your comments in this section. Just curious where does the high tension fit into the equation for the "bowling ball" type of ball.

A local 5.5 I hit with hits a similar ball. He uses a bone stock MGMP but with poly strung at 61 on a constant pull machine. As regards racquet/string setup, is the "bowling ball effect" (assuming a high level of skill) a function of the high tension simply adding control to the ultra fast swing or am I missing something else?

Well, I think that if you use a high tension, you put more of your swing speed into getting the ball to penetrate the court instead of using spin. Because we all need some form of depth control, which comes from using a higher tension, from using more spin, or anywhere in between. If you use a high tension to do most of your depth control, then most of your swing speed is spent towards getting the ball through the court because you don't have to worry about hitting long. As a result, the ball goes through the court faster, and it becomes more difficult to get into position, set up properly, and hit through the ball. If you use spin, you have to put a portion of your racket head speed into generating that spin, which lowers the amount of pace you hit with. However, this doesn't mean that flat bombers always hit heavier balls than heavy spin users (it's just easier to do so if you can consistently get the ball over the net). I think that how heavy a ball feels has to do with how fast the ball is when you hit it, which is basically a function of how well it penetrates the court. Sampras generated the heaviest serve because he got the most topspin component and RPM count as well as generating the same amount of pace as everyone else. This means his ball slowed down less after impact and maintained more of its speed. This is why volleys off hard balls are heavier than groundstrokes off hard balls - you're just making contact on a faster ball. To generate a heavy ball using topspin, you have to get the topspin to sort of spin forward and up at the opponent. You need it to explode off the court.

It's hard to explain my views on this clearly, as this is (currently) one of the more unknown aspects of the game, but the bowling ball effect isn't 100% related to tension. You can hit a heavy ball in numerous ways. We all know our friends who hit flat balls that skid and penetrate through the court like a knife through butter hit incredibly heavy shots, but Sampras commented once that Federer's shots now (mainly the forehand) are heavier than when they first played. The only thing that's changed since they played is that Federer regularly hits with far more topspin (and slightly less pace while also using a lower tension). So from this, we can tell that the use of heavy topspin while still getting the ball to penetrate the court well will still produce a heavy ball. And in my opinion, around the time that they hit when Sampras made this comment, Federer's ball penetrated the court a little better than when they played in 2001, which supports my theory of the heavy ball being mainly related to the penetration of the ball through the court and its speed at contact.

NineEleven said:
guys ho much lead tape do you guys recommend adding?

is there a limit?

and how long are th strips you used?

i have added mine 5 inches at 3 and 9 position as well as 10 inches which i stuff under the butt cap.

Depends on the player, their racket, and their game.

None other than what the player can no longer handle.

Depends on how much weight you want to add as well as how much each piece weighs. As you know, I prefer Gamma's 1/4" width tape, which is .25 grams per inch. I've also used (and sometimes still do) their 1/2" width version, which is .5 grams per inch. The longest strip I've ever used was 15 inches around the top of the hoop using the 1/2" width lead tape. The longest I've used at 3&9 was 8 inches of the 1/4" width. That's just the visible stuff though. On the grip or in the buttcap, I probably use more, but I don't remember how much. The shortest I've ever used was 3 inches. I generally use 4 inches though, on average.

NineEleven · Dec 13, 2009

thanks for your response.

i think my main intention to add lead tape is the following.

1) Add stability when returning fast pace balls ie flat serves.

2) to Add power since my racket is the Non-tour version and only 305g strung

I was reading your thread on how you placed lead tape at 7 inches above the butt cap to maintain balance.

By adding 10g at 3 and 9 position and another 10g right under the butt cap, have i altered the balance ?

thx

Also the 'bowling ball effect is what i encounter sometimes which i find hard to handle which makes me add lead tape as my understanding is that a heavier racket helps in handling heavy pace.

As to creating the bowling ball effect,
Is that achieved by higher tension?

PED · Dec 13, 2009

NineEleven said:
thanks for your response.

Also the 'bowling ball effect is what i encounter sometimes which i find hard to handle which makes me add lead tape as my understanding is that a heavier racket helps in handling heavy pace.

As to creating the bowling ball effect,
Is that achieved by higher tension?

The bowling ball appears to come from extremely rapid stick speed combined with high tension (for depth control) resulting in flat, hard ball.

The two biggest balls I come up against are very different. One guy hits a very tightly spun ball, it doesn't kick much but it really hits through the court so you don't get much time before its "on you".

The other guy hits one that just explodes off of the court and bounces around shoulder height.....right at the baseline. I personally would rather deal with the 2nd type of ball as you get more time to prep and deal with it. But it's funny because after about a 1/2 an hour, it's very draining to deal with-in the middle of the summer at 90 plus, it's murder

It's ironic that they both play with similar sticks: basically 340g strung with a 320g SW: one uses Pro blend at 63 and the other uses syn gut at 62. There's that high tension again

xFullCourtTenniSx · Dec 13, 2009

NineEleven said:
thanks for your response.

i think my main intention to add lead tape is the following.

1) Add stability when returning fast pace balls ie flat serves.

2) to Add power since my racket is the Non-tour version and only 305g strung

I was reading your thread on how you placed lead tape at 7 inches above the butt cap to maintain balance.

By adding 10g at 3 and 9 position and another 10g right under the butt cap, have i altered the balance ?

thx

Also the 'bowling ball effect is what i encounter sometimes which i find hard to handle which makes me add lead tape as my understanding is that a heavier racket helps in handling heavy pace.

As to creating the bowling ball effect,
Is that achieved by higher tension?

With the lead placed there, I think it might turn out a little more headlight than before. Depends on the previous balance, but it should come out pretty close to the original balance.

Depending on how much power you want, you might want to try some lead at 12 as well.

As for handling the bowling ball type of shot, weight helps a little, but in the end you really need solid footwork and the ability to effectively hit through the ball. Nothing else can replace that. But another thing that helps is regularly playing against that type of shot. The more you get used to it, the less heavy it feels because it'll seem more like a normal ball as you adjust to it and improve little by little.

The bowling ball effect is created by heavy penetration through the court, which means higher ball speeds at contact. If the ball does that using heavy spin, or with pure flat, skidding pace it doesn't really matter. It's just how well does the ball penetrate the court.

PED said:
The bowling ball appears to come from extremely rapid stick speed combined with high tension (for depth control) resulting in flat, hard ball.

The two biggest balls I come up against are very different. One guy hits a very tightly spun ball, it doesn't kick much but it really hits through the court so you don't get much time before its "on you".

The other guy hits one that just explodes off of the court and bounces around shoulder height.....right at the baseline. I personally would rather deal with the 2nd type of ball as you get more time to prep and deal with it. But it's funny because after about a 1/2 an hour, it's very draining to deal with-in the middle of the summer at 90 plus, it's murder

It's ironic that they both play with similar sticks: basically 340g strung with a 320g SW: one uses Pro blend at 63 and the other uses syn gut at 62. There's that high tension again

Hmmmm... Ever faced the one that explodes up and forward? Those are weird. It seems like they slow down to the bounce, then explode and catch you off guard.

I'd like to think my ball is getting heavier, but it's lost some kick and penetration recently.

High tension players do seem to generate the heavier balls, just because it's easier that way. If your tension is doing the depth control for you, you're spending all your swing speed towards generating pace and hitting through the court. I guess heavy hitters with high tensions are just more common, but they are far from the rule.

It's also a relative thing though. To us, these guys hit a heavy ball but they've played against it so much that it's normal when they see it. Then they see a higher level player and THEY hit a heavy ball, which to us is purely untouchable.

PED · Dec 13, 2009

xFullCourtTenniSx said:
Hmmmm... Ever faced the one that explodes up and forward? Those are weird. It seems like they slow down to the bounce, then explode and catch you off guard.

Yes, player number 2 that I mentioned above is like that, not only is his ball exploding "up" it seems to push you back at the same time. After awhile, it's almost like taking shots in the ribs in boxing...lol.

Alan_Hill · Dec 13, 2009

How it play different if I add 5g only above the buttcap?
Babolat Aero Strike (balance 34cm)

xFullCourtTenniSx · Dec 14, 2009

Alan_Hill said:
How it play different if I add 5g only above the buttcap?
Babolat Aero Strike (balance 34cm)

It'll drop the "sweetspot". Basically not worth the effort to do and undo. Will not give any positive benefits unless you want a racket that feels dead and lifeless.

Buckethead · Dec 14, 2009

XFULLTENNIS,
i have some more questions for you.
I have heard about the usage of silicone in the handle,and i have and old racket that i never liked(pretty sh....racket Head TiS2)that has also a hollow handle,and if i'm not wrong the balance is 10 P HH.As this racket isn't worth it anything,i'll mess around with it and i decided to change the balance as much as i can as well.I guess it weighs about 285g.

I think i'm gonna fill up the handle with silicone,and even try to put some fishing weights inside it as well.
Can you give me some thoughts in this case?

Also,i bought 2 RDS 001 mid,and after i understand the racket i'll change it with lead,but my question is:Is their handle hollow as well?How can i remove the butt cap?I know you have customized the RDS 003,so you know what to do with Yonex.

About my Volkl,it has a sensor handle,so i'm assuming it's impossible to do something with Volkl and Becker rackets since they have that thing going on ,right?

What are the rackets that have hollow handle?

thanks a lot.

NineEleven · Dec 15, 2009

xFullCourtTenniSx said:
It'll drop the "sweetspot". Basically not worth the effort to do and undo. Will not give any positive benefits unless you want a racket that feels dead and lifeless.

hmm so if i add at 12 O'clock, it will shift the Sweetspot towards the tip of the head?

Maybe i shd do this as i like to hit my shots near the tip but somehow my racket hardly allows me to do it:neutral:

I just weighed my racket today and i got 342g. Claimed specs printed on the racket are 305 strung.

Have i added too much lol

gflyer · Dec 15, 2009

great posts. thank you!

xFullCourtTenniSx said:
Well, once we reach a certain point in our games, we have pretty dang big groundstrokes. Most rackets are in the SW1 category (the lower swingweights). Moving them up to SW2 status (high swingweights) adds control to our swings, as well as giving power and spin. No matter what, adding weight will pump up the swingweight (albeit to different levels based on WHERE you put it).

So basically, everyone that plays tennis on a high level and uses custom weighted rackets is eventually going to end up playing with ridiculously high swingweights (okay, ALMOST everyone; Verdasco is one of the exceptions). The difference is HOW they want to get there. Some people want rackets that are insanely stable and plow through the ball, giving insane amounts of power and control for anybody good enough to swing it around (like Sampras, Roddick, and Courier). Others like the rackets to be very easy to whip around, allowing them to use heavy amounts of wrist action in their shots and allowing them to generate unprecedented amounts of spin (like Rafter, Nadal and Federer).

To get insane amounts of stability and plow through on the ball, you need VERY high levels of mass on your racket so that you can barely feel the ball's "weight" on contact (you can still feel the ball extremely well, but you might notice a more muted response than before thanks to the added stability). But the more mass we add, the higher the swingweight. So if we do it wrong, we won't get as much mass as we want, and we'll already reach our ideal swingweight in the SW2 section. So these people will put the weights lower on their racket (closer to the center of the racket; 3&9, as well as around the throat or top of the grip for counterbalance). That way, they can put more weight on their rackets to reach the amount of power and plow through they want without exceeding their ideal swingweight specification. This is what we call a depolarized setup. It's what most pros used. 95% of pros (if not more) prior to the year 2000 used this kind of setup. A wood racket is essentially a depolarized racket, so 100% of people prior to graphite rackets used a depolarized setup.

Others like their rackets to be less hefty, while still having that nice, high swingweight. To do that, they want every bit of mass they add to increase the swingweight as much as possible, so that they add very little mass to the racket, but get that nice spike in swingweight. They will end up putting the weight near the top of the racket (under the bumper guard) and some inside the buttcap for counterbalance. But since at this point, people don't care too much about balance, most of the added weight goes under the bumper guard (I hear Nadal adds 9 grams under the bumper and 2 in the buttcap while all of Federer's added racket weight is under the bumper, which I'm guessing is 2.5-4.5 grams). These rackets have lower static weight and become more manageable and spin friendly. Also, since the weight is mainly distributed towards the ends of the rackets, it spins on it's axis better, allowing for even better access to spin and racket head speed. This is what we call a polarized setup. Nowadays, a lot more people are using this setup thanks to the lighter rackets out there. Also, this is the reason why we will see some pros with a ridiculously low racket mass.

Now, which setup is the best? That's up to personal preference, as stated before. I love both (currently using/trying a slightly polarized setup like Federer). A depolarized racket is the more conventional type of racket customization (as it's been around longer) but it's a little more difficult to do (overall, but it depends on the racket as well). It grants extra forgiveness, stability, and pop so most people should generally look to have this kind of setup. It's the best for aggressive baseline hitting, as well as for serve and volleying. If you want to take the ball on the rise, or are an aggressive returner (like Agassi and Blake; both of whom use a depolarized setup), then you'll love the stability and power this setup gives. The other one is better for people who feel like they have all the power, forgiveness, and stability they need, but are lacking in some spin and margin for their shots. This is where a polarized setup can help, because it really adds a lot of spin to your shots and gives you extra margin over the net to safely stay in points. Nadal uses this setup to great effectiveness, employing heavy spin off the forehand and serve, constantly pulling his opponents wide and out of position. Rafter liked it because his big weapon was his kick serve and athleticism. A polarized setup added extra kick and action to his serves. He would kick a high one up to the opponent's backhand, then use his athleticism and feel for the ball to put away volleys. Though, this caused him to be less effective on grass, where serve and volleyers should dominate (as you can guess, almost all serve and volleyers use a depolarized setup). However, I must say that I found the polarized setup to be more erratic overall. It becomes difficult to control the racket sometimes (because the power and spin might not always be as consistent due to lack of stability), but most of the time you'll get good results if you like to use heavy spin.

Your posts on this thread are amazingly useful.
Hands down my fav posts since I am member on this board.
Thank you!!!

Tdot · Dec 15, 2009

How big of a difference does 2 or 3 grams make on the playability of the racquet ?

xFullCourtTenniSx · Dec 15, 2009

Buckethead said:
XFULLTENNIS,
i have some more questions for you.
I have heard about the usage of silicone in the handle,and i have and old racket that i never liked(pretty sh....racket Head TiS2)that has also a hollow handle,and if i'm not wrong the balance is 10 P HH.As this racket isn't worth it anything,i'll mess around with it and i decided to change the balance as much as i can as well.I guess it weighs about 285g.

I think i'm gonna fill up the handle with silicone,and even try to put some fishing weights inside it as well.
Can you give me some thoughts in this case?

Also,i bought 2 RDS 001 mid,and after i understand the racket i'll change it with lead,but my question is:Is their handle hollow as well?How can i remove the butt cap?I know you have customized the RDS 003,so you know what to do with Yonex.

About my Volkl,it has a sensor handle,so i'm assuming it's impossible to do something with Volkl and Becker rackets since they have that thing going on ,right?

What are the rackets that have hollow handle?

thanks a lot.

Silicone in the handle I've heard and would think softens up the feel (less vibrations and a more muted response?). Lead wouldn't do that. Lead shakes in the handle unless it's secured tightly. lol It's something I want to look into one day, but I don't have the equipment or materials.

Plus, I'm out of "test subjects" as I only carry my Wilson K90s, my RDS 003 is a perfect "monster" racket, our old Dunlop is another perfect "monster" racket, my old Prince racket is very comfortably and plays well as it is with the slight modifications on it, and I broke my dad's Ozone Pro Tour while hitting with it (cause he did a bad job of extending the handle, and the foam grip shattered in my hands while hitting a two handed backhand IN THE CENTER OF THE STRINGS; he's currently working on putting it back together, which I feel is a wasted effort). We do have a Hyper Hammer 5.3, and I think it would be an excellent candidate for silicone in the handle with fishing weights.

As for which rackets from Volkl, I have 0 experience with those rackets. I've mainly dealt with several Wilsons, 1 Yonex, 2 Princes, and 1 old ass Dunlop. I don't even know what a sensor grip is. Haha.

For a RDS 001 mid, I have no idea if it's hollow or not. The Wilson K90 and K95 I've worked with have foam inside the hollow parts of the grip as well, so you really only have that little bit of space to put in weight for those rackets and have to resort to lead on the grip. But those rackets are so headlight anyways, so it doesn't matter really. The 003 was hollow inside, but it's a light racket, near even balance too. I'm guessing heavy rackets (especially the VERY headlight ones) have foam in the grip, or it might just be Wilson. The Ozone Pro Tour and my old Prince CTS Approach Oversize both weigh a little over 12 ounces strung, but have hollow handles. I'm actually wondering how the Ozone can weigh that much when there are giant holes in the thing! So maybe Wilson is the only one that doesn't have hollow handles for some of their rackets. In that case, almost every racket should have a hollow handle.

To get into the handle of a Yonex racket (because the damned things don't have a trapdoor), you have to take off the grip (any and all) to get to the bare handle. The buttcap will be stapled on to the bare grip. Remove the 4 staples (might actually be 5 if the grip is stapled on) and the buttcap will come off with a firm pull. Then do your modifications, put the buttcap back on, and either hammer the staples back in the same holes, or get a staple gun and put new ones in. I just used the old ones and put them back in and sort of hammered them in, and the buttcap is still tight and firm on the racket. Finally, rewrap the grip if you're cheap, or use a new grip you like and put it on.

Problem with rackets like these, is it's a pain in the ass if you want to rework the weight in there... But it's not so bad... At least we don't have to remake a handle and attach it. Haha.

NineEleven said:
hmm so if i add at 12 O'clock, it will shift the Sweetspot towards the tip of the head?

Maybe i shd do this as i like to hit my shots near the tip but somehow my racket hardly allows me to do it:neutral:

I just weighed my racket today and i got 342g. Claimed specs printed on the racket are 305 strung.

Have i added too much lol

Well... If you can handle it and like it, then it's fine. Some people actually prefer the feel of not having a "sweetspot", myself included, because the strings FEEL more consistent at contact no matter where you hit it, so there are no surprises as long as you hit the strings. That's why we hard hitters like to string at high tensions. However, I like to gain that effect by stringing tighter. But I've recently gone to stringing lower to add power so I can spin the ball in all day and whack the few I pick. It makes the day go by more easily on the courts.

But yes, lead at 12 helps with power and shifting the sweetspot up.

Tdot said:
How big of a difference does 2 or 3 grams make on the playability of the racquet ?

Depends on the placement, player, and racket. When I started out, 2-3 grams was a huge difference. Didn't like it at all (ironically, I would end up switching to a racket over an ounce heavier).

Sometimes 2-3 grams at 3&9 is enough to solve the stability problems of a racket and satisfy a player's needs. Sometimes 10 grams isn't enough to solve a player's stability problems or the racket was just too bloody unstable to begin with so more is needed.

You can feel the difference of 2-3 grams, but as for playability, the changes are very slight. Sometimes you only wanted that slight change, but usually if I look to change my racket's performance, I'll need at least 6-10 grams to start.

ManuGinobili · Dec 15, 2009

Tdot said:
How big of a difference does 2 or 3 grams make on the playability of the racquet ?

It's very noticeable if you're changing the balance of the racket. If you're spreading that 2,3g out so that the balance remains the same then I'm not sure.
For example, I added 2g at 3 and 2g at 9 o'clock once and it showed a big difference in the swing.

xFullCourtTenniSx · Dec 15, 2009

ManuGinobili said:
For example, I added 2g at 3 and 2g at 9 o'clock once and it showed a big difference in the swing.

Yeah. Even for someone like me who likes very heavy weights, I can notice an amount as small as 2.5 grams, but it was at 12 and I'm very sensitive to changes in my K90. Haha.

It's more of an exponential change though. The first 12 grams on my K90 at 3&9 were nothing. The next 8... It was big. The bigger the change feels, the closer you are to your swingweight limit (if you haven't passed it already). If you've added so much weight that your shots are landing shorter and shorter, you're past your SW2 zone.

TennisTypeR · Dec 15, 2009

Hi xfull, what do you think of placing lead like the positions liquidmetal is placed on LM racquets? What are the effects? I was thinking about this when I read the description of liquidmetal on TW website and they claimed that the positions were strategic and found this sort of interesting. Thanks

xFullCourtTenniSx · Dec 15, 2009

TennisTypeR said:
Hi xfull, what do you think of placing lead like the positions liquidmetal is placed on LM racquets? What are the effects? I was thinking about this when I read the description of liquidmetal on TW website and they claimed that the positions were strategic and found this sort of interesting. Thanks

Marketing cough cough. Haha. Doesn't that have to do with it's "advanced technological composition" at "strategic points" as opposed to weight?

Well, it should stretch the sweetspot in the same way as lead at 3&9, but in the diagonals... So you'd get a kind of an X-shaped sqeetspot...? :shock:

I think it'll be better to use long strips of lead at 3&9. If you can handle 7 or 8 grams, use 7-8 inches of 1/4" width lead at 3&9. It'll be better stability wise and you still stretched the sweetspot.

ronalditop · Dec 15, 2009

One question for you guys who use lead at the top of the handle, what's the lenght of those lead strips?

ManuGinobili · Dec 15, 2009

TennisTypeR said:
Hi xfull, what do you think of placing lead like the positions liquidmetal is placed on LM racquets? What are the effects? I was thinking about this when I read the description of liquidmetal on TW website and they claimed that the positions were strategic and found this sort of interesting. Thanks

Say the tech is the real deal, didnt Head say the LM is placed there to absorb vibration and help the racket respond to shots better? Lead's not supposed to do that ...

Tdot · Dec 15, 2009

ManuGinobili said:
Say the tech is the real deal, didnt Head say the LM is placed there to absorb vibration and help the racket respond to shots better? Lead's not supposed to do that ...

I believe having added weight to the hoop will also result in more vibration absorption, hence the reason why I felt the LM prestige mid was pretty muted. I don't know the exact specs but for sure the LM prestige mid has a much higher swingweight than say, the MG prestige mid.

NineEleven · Dec 16, 2009

hey guys i was wondering if the length of the lead tape makes a difference.

Currently mine is 5 inches at 3 and 9.

Would it make any difference if i did 2.5inches but double layer it?

Any ideal length to use?

Orion · Dec 16, 2009

NineEleven said:
hey guys i was wondering if the length of the lead tape makes a difference.

Currently mine is 5 inches at 3 and 9.

Would it make any difference if i did 2.5inches but double layer it?

Any ideal length to use?

It's all personal preference. My experience with double layering has been that it's tends to peel up. On OS frames I used a 5 in strip but lately I've been using Babolat lead, which actually adheres very well but is thicker than the average lead.

GZim · Dec 16, 2009

I have been looking for a new racquet for awhile now, and have demo'd 8 already (pls see my post http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=301913). I have been playing with the Yonex RDS002. I like that it is head lite, but I think the racquet is a bit too light. I get great top off both sides with it but think I would get more power if there was a bit more heft to it. I would like more pop on my serve. I string it with Champions Choice, I like the feel it gives me.

I am interested in adding some lead... (never did this) can someone please give me a suggestion exactly as to how much and where to put it for my first try? Do I need to also add in the handle? I would like the swingweight to go up some...

thx

Gary

Buckethead · Dec 16, 2009

Too much work!

FullCourtTennis;
i was messing aorund with the Yonex racquet,today ,my girlfriend's RQS 11,but i couldn't find any other way,unless what you told me,and therefore i'm giving up on removing the butt cap of those,too much work,and i may even screw it up doing such a thing,as i'm not experienced with this sort of thing.Yonex has better manufacturing quality that's probably why it's locked ,glued,stapled liked that, you name it.

Now my experience with The Head TiS2 will start,since it's hollow.The racquet is 10 points Head Heavy ,and i will try to turn it into HL,and see how it feels.Not that i will play with that POS,but i want to experiment.

Do you own a customizing shop, or you just do these things to experiment like me?

About the Volkl and BB,the sensor handle is a Tech they claim to stop some of the Vibs to go to your arm,therefore the butt cap is sealed.

Thanks for all the answers.I really appreciated.

NineEleven · Dec 16, 2009

Added 1g of weight at 12 and now i feel some added power.

Not sure if im over doing it but seems i have added 35g of weight so far.

PS: tried my freinds K-90 today stock and suddenly it felt so light but one thing i do noticed is the weight is very nice. it head light but its something about the weight that makes it nice to hit.

Any idea how i can tweak and adjust the placement of the lead tape to mimic the feel of the k-90?

Mig1NC · Dec 16, 2009

Two quick questions for you guys.

1. I was using the customization tools at TW University and one of the suggested locations for positioning the lead tape to get the racquet to the weight I needed was in the throat. One thing that I want to accomplish - and the tools make it look possible - is to increase the twist weight. But the locations to increase the twist weight to what I want need to be about 6 inches out from each other. So I was wondering if anybody has ever tried to put lead on the outside of the thread instead of inside of the throat? What were your results?

2. On the TWU racquet customization tools, when it says to add lead at 14.5 inches, does that mean that the center of the lead you add needs to be at 14.5 inches? Or that you need to start at 14.5 inches and go up? The only thing that makes sense to me would be to center the lead on the mark.

Thanks guys and gals.

xFullCourtTenniSx · Dec 16, 2009

Buckethead said:
FullCourtTennis;
i was messing aorund with the Yonex racquet,today ,my girlfriend's RQS 11,but i couldn't find any other way,unless what you told me,and therefore i'm giving up on removing the butt cap of those,too much work,and i may even screw it up doing such a thing,as i'm not experienced with this sort of thing.Yonex has better manufacturing quality that's probably why it's locked ,glued,stapled liked that, you name it.

Now my experience with The Head TiS2 will start,since it's hollow.The racquet is 10 points Head Heavy ,and i will try to turn it into HL,and see how it feels.Not that i will play with that POS,but i want to experiment.

Do you own a customizing shop, or you just do these things to experiment like me?

About the Volkl and BB,the sensor handle is a Tech they claim to stop some of the Vibs to go to your arm,therefore the butt cap is sealed.

Thanks for all the answers.I really appreciated.

Haha. I don't do grips (yet) so I don't think I'd deserve to have a shop. At this point, it's mostly experimenting and just working on rackets from whoever asks me for help.

And the buttcap is only stapled on. It's not a big problem and if you have an attention for detail that OCD people are known for, it's almost impossible to screw it up. It's just a pain in the ass to put the lead in or take lead out each time...

Trust me, you can't **** up a racket worse than my dad. He's cracked 2 of mine (1 actually warped) and his attempt to extend the grip on his Prince Ozone Pro Tour shattered the grip during play. It's not like you're making drastic changes to the actual design of the racket. If they weren't meant to come on and off, they wouldn't have Yonex buttcaps for sale now would they? :wink: Though Yonex grommets are far worse to replace, even though those don't necessarily need any materials compared to a staplegun required for Yonex buttcaps.

NineEleven said:
Added 1g of weight at 12 and now i feel some added power.

Not sure if im over doing it but seems i have added 35g of weight so far.

PS: tried my freinds K-90 today stock and suddenly it felt so light but one thing i do noticed is the weight is very nice. it head light but its something about the weight that makes it nice to hit.

Any idea how i can tweak and adjust the placement of the lead tape to mimic the feel of the k-90?

What's your racket, and your racket specs? The actual FEEL of the K90 can't be replicated (comes from the mold, string spacing setup, composition, stiffness, and other factors not necessarily related to weight if at all), but the performance can be to a certain extent. The thing is, it's going to be difficult since replicating the power and spin potential exactly might lead you to slightly different specs because of the aforementioned factors that your racket most likely doesn't share with a K90 will alter spin potential and power. It's similar to how you can't recreate a K88 by using lead on a K90. There are differences in feel, stiffness, string spacing, composition, racket design, and so on that alter playability and can't be accounted for by creating the same racket specs.

A K90 is pretty cheap now. Either settle on a certain performance goal(s) for your racket (more spin, power, etc) or get a few K90s while you still can.

Mig1NC said:
Two quick questions for you guys.

1. I was using the customization tools at TW University and one of the suggested locations for positioning the lead tape to get the racquet to the weight I needed was in the throat. One thing that I want to accomplish - and the tools make it look possible - is to increase the twist weight. But the locations to increase the twist weight to what I want need to be about 6 inches out from each other. So I was wondering if anybody has ever tried to put lead on the outside of the thread instead of inside of the throat? What were your results?

2. On the TWU racquet customization tools, when it says to add lead at 14.5 inches, does that mean that the center of the lead you add needs to be at 14.5 inches? Or that you need to start at 14.5 inches and go up? The only thing that makes sense to me would be to center the lead on the mark.

Thanks guys and gals.

1) Might want to rethink your locations and goals. Lead on the outer rim of the frame is easy to scrape off during play (low volleys, low slices, etc).

2) Center point of the lead added.

NineEleven · Dec 16, 2009

Yep thank you mine is the 4D aerogel 300 non-tour 16x19 .

Strung weight is 305g but currently its 340g

Perhaps your right.

I think i like the head lightness of the K-90

Just wondering i see theres mention on staples on buttcap.

For me i just remove some dunlop rubber cap easily and stufff my lead tap underneath. Am i missing something?

Buckethead · Dec 19, 2009

xFullCourtTenniSx said:
Haha. I don't do grips (yet) so I don't think I'd deserve to have a shop. At this point, it's mostly experimenting and just working on rackets from whoever asks me for help.

And the buttcap is only stapled on. It's not a big problem and if you have an attention for detail that OCD people are known for, it's almost impossible to screw it up. It's just a pain in the ass to put the lead in or take lead out each time...

Trust me, you can't **** up a racket worse than my dad. He's cracked 2 of mine (1 actually warped) and his attempt to extend the grip on his Prince Ozone Pro Tour shattered the grip during play. It's not like you're making drastic changes to the actual design of the racket. If they weren't meant to come on and off, they wouldn't have Yonex buttcaps for sale now would they? :wink: Though Yonex grommets are far worse to replace, even though those don't necessarily need any materials compared to a staplegun required for Yonex buttcaps.

You're right ,if there are butt caps for sale,it means they're made to take it off,be replaced or what not.I don't have a staple gun,so for now,i won't mess around with it.
Was the handle of RDS 003 hollow?
Also i added another 3g of lead at the famous 7'', and man ,now my racket is perfect,i really love it now,and the balance is almost 8 HL.

ronalditop · Dec 19, 2009

Buckethead said:
You're right ,if there are butt caps for sale,it means they're made to take it off,be replaced or what not.I don't have a staple gun,so for now,i won't mess around with it.
Was the handle of RDS 003 hollow?
Also i added another 3g of lead at the famous 7'', and man ,now my racket is perfect,i really love it now,and the balance is almost 8 HL.

What is the lenght of the lead you put at 7''?

Lead tape placement qns

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