AM95
Hall of Fame
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/te...-plea-play-fewer-tournaments-hard-courts.html
should we just eliminate the hard court surface in general rafa?
should we just eliminate the hard court surface in general rafa?
Nadal Wants Less Tournaments on Hard Courts (AGAIN)
- Thread starter AM95
- Start date
djokovicgonzalez2010
G.O.A.T.
He says as he plays doubles with unknowns...
luckyboy1300
Hall of Fame
hard courts have been there for a very long time already. the only solution is to speed up the hard courts so their effects on the body will be minimized by shorter rallies. let the slow court play be played on natural surfaces where long rallies are not that damaging.
J
Jchurch
Guest
It is simple. Don't play doubles. That should cut his time on hard courts a lot. I would also consider domed football similar to hardcourts with only astroturf in between the two player and huge slabs of concrete.
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
"I am not watching football on a hardcourt or basketball being played on a hardcourt, so this is something that we have got to think a little more about."
Basketball isn't played on hardcourt? WTF is Nadal retarted?
Rafa, for the last time, stfu about the schedule. The message may be right - the season is too long, but that includes clay as well. It's simple, if you're hurt, don't play. He didn't seem to have a problem w/ that at Wimbledon, but now at Miami and IW he's playing singles and doubles and wants to complain about the schedule? Just shut up and play or (don't) play. Simple as that.
Basketball isn't played on hardcourt? WTF is Nadal retarted?
Rafa, for the last time, stfu about the schedule. The message may be right - the season is too long, but that includes clay as well. It's simple, if you're hurt, don't play. He didn't seem to have a problem w/ that at Wimbledon, but now at Miami and IW he's playing singles and doubles and wants to complain about the schedule? Just shut up and play or (don't) play. Simple as that.
i dont understand why players complain about the season being too long.. if they dont like it, why dont they just play the # of tournaments they want to play, and let the tour fine them, (its pocket change to them anyway)... ala the williamses, federer now, pat cash and muster before, etc...
MotherMarjorie
Banned
That's pretty a pretty self-serving statement from Nadal, considering he's only managed one grand slam win on hardcourts. I'm sure he wished most tournaments were all clay, but what makes players great like Federer is the ability to adapt and win on all court surfaces.
Funny thing, you never hear Federer or Roddick stating there should be less clay court tournaments. They never complain about that sorta stuff.
Once the US Open went hardcourt, followed by the Australian Open, hardcourt tennis was here to stay in the majors.
Funny thing, you never hear Federer or Roddick stating there should be less clay court tournaments. They never complain about that sorta stuff.
Once the US Open went hardcourt, followed by the Australian Open, hardcourt tennis was here to stay in the majors.
yes because Nadal has only won on claycourts, he's never adapted and won on any other surface.
Semi-Pro
Hall of Fame
yes because Nadal has only won on claycourts, he's never adapted and won on any other surface.
I don't think that was his point. His point probably was no one else really makes a big fuss about surfaces other than Nadal and a few others...
I could be wrong, but that's what I got out of it.
yemenmocha
Professional
+1, great post.
No need to make them "fast"... just make them like they used to, which wasn't so boringly slow like they are now. Return them to normal. Faster points, more variety in playstyles will be prevalent (FFS please no more baseliners).
Mr.Brightside
Rookie
you mean fewer tournaments
Buckethead
Banned
If he doesn't like it,just don't play them,just as i don't like the 3 hours 3 sets clay court tournaments,he has his right not to like it.I would definitely like to see a grass season with more time and tournaments.
No wonder why he doesn't like it,because he can't win them anymore and just get beaten.
No wonder why he doesn't like it,because he can't win them anymore and just get beaten.
J
Justdoit10
Guest
lol. Everyone knows that basketball is played on tempur-pedic mattresses... ...oh wait, never mind.
MotherMarjorie
Banned
Tennis used to be played primarily on grass for Grand Slam and circuit events (minus the French Open). However, hardcourts cost less to maintain and less of a headache for tournament directors.
The problem with a lengthier grass court season is the date of the French Open Championships. Its silly that five months pass between the AO and French Open, and only four weeks between the FO and Wimby.
I agree, it would be nice to see more grass court tennis.
I would like to see atleast one masters 1000 event played on grass. I do think if there was a longer grass court season, it'd be better as players would have more time to practice on that surface. I enjoy grass court tennis so it'd be fun, unfortuantely its unlikely it'll happen. the grass court "season" is just too short.
ninman
Hall of Fame
What's indoor football played on? Rafa seriously, stfu. I'm going to write to sky sports and demand that they ask him for an explanation. In their interview they have to say.
So Rafa you want less hardcourt tournaments is that right?
yes, blah, blah, blah.
Ok, don't you think that's rather hypocritical given that you play doubles when you don't have to, and you also play lots of smaller tournaments, that you don't have to, and you play your long grinding clay court game on hardcourts?
So Rafa you want less hardcourt tournaments is that right?
yes, blah, blah, blah.
Ok, don't you think that's rather hypocritical given that you play doubles when you don't have to, and you also play lots of smaller tournaments, that you don't have to, and you play your long grinding clay court game on hardcourts?
bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
I think "Fieldturf" and its imitators have gone a LONG way in improving football playing surfaces. Maybe not as forgiving as natural grass but miles better than first generation Astroturf, which was used for a long time, and really was simply a thin layer of utility carpet laid over concrete.
namelessone
Legend
Nailed it. The problem is that these hard surface are hard on the joints,not just Nadal's joints and that some surfaces have been slowed down,with HC being half of the tour. It's not just Nadal that plays long rallies,two thirds of today's players play long rallies on HC,even those who have flatter strokes and a serve,unlike Rafa.
And it's not like he can quit these events. Nadal is a professional tennis player and he wants to do his best on tour so he has to enter some HC events.8 out of 9 masters are mandatory and the non mandatory one is a clay one,6 out of the 9 masters are on HC. I'm pretty sure that the GS's are mandatory as well and two of those are on HC and skipping them is not an option(and even if it were can you imagine the media backlash,look at all the lip nadal got for skipping WB with a injury). The doubles argument is irrelevant,he cuts his practice short and plays doubles. In the end it is the same time on court.
To those who say Nadal has not adapted to HC: The guy won 5 HC masters(made a total of 9 HC masters final),won 1 HC GS and made 2 consecutive SF appearances at AO and USO. Other than Federer,which player has adapted to all surfaces,if we look at their titles?
Djoker is good on clay and HC but isn't that good on grass.
DelPo is good on clay and HC but is cumbersome on grass.
Same goes for Davydenko.
Murray is good on HC and grass but is a mediocre claycourter.
Soderling is good basically only on HC.
Roddick is great on HC and grass but ****ty on clay.
Cilic is too young to call but probably HC and perhaps grass will be his strong suit.
Tsonga is only good on HC.
I understand that HC has been around for a while and it is cheaper to maintain but really,is there no money in tennis for more grass court tourneys? Clay is well represented with 2 months in the calendar and 3 masters + 1 GS. HC is over represented with 6 masters and 2 GS's,not to mention countless 500 and 250 events. Grass is f****d,with basically 1 GS and 1 warm-up event(queens or halle). Yes,it is a tricky and expensive surface but why does tennis run away from natural surfaces nowadays?
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jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
If Nadal quit Wimbledon, he shouldn't fear quitting Miami if he's injured. "Mandatory" is more of a suggestion than anything else - if Nadal says he's hurt, it's not like the ATP is going to force him to play. Even if he's not really "hurt", he can say he needs the rest for his chronic knees and the ATP would be more than likely to grant him that without any problem. So don't pull the "mandatory" card. Guys pull out of MS events w/ injury all of the time, nothing's stopping Nadal from resting his knees anytime it is necessary.
The tour should not have to change to fit Nadal - Nadal should have adjusted his scheduling a long time ago as to not end up in the situation he was in @ RG last year. Sure the season is too long, but there are ways around that and there's nothing wrong w/ taking a MS event off here or there. But the bigger issue is Nadal's poor scheduling, which went on for far too long and obviously has taken its toll. You say 50% of the season is HC, well 45% of the season is CC, so what gives, you know?
There are clay tournaments running all the way from February to the end of July. So clay is in no way underrepresented. And yes I agree w/ more grass, but the problem isn't too many HC, as most of the HC events are well spread out and not mandatory. Nadal can't play 2 weeks in a row on HC? Perhaps he's more fragile than we thought. Sorry to be so harsh, but you have to realize that this is just more whining from Nadal. Like I said the message may be right, but it gets old hearing the same tired complaints from Nadal about the HC being the source of his injuries, and not overscheduling during the CC season every year. Doing stuff like playing a CC event in Stuttgart after he made the Wimby final in 07 (and had been banged up in that 4th set if you remember), playing Barcelona every year in the middle of the already crowded CC season, complaining about Madrid last year but still playing in it, playing doubles in certain events, doesn't grant Nadal any sympathy from me. Sorry.
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namelessone
Legend
If Nadal quit Wimbledon, he shouldn't fear quitting Miami if he's injured. "Mandatory" is more of a suggestion than anything else - if Nadal says he's hurt, it's not like the ATP is going to force him to play. Even if he's not really "hurt", he can say he needs the rest for his chronic knees and the ATP would be more than likely to grant him that without any problem. So don't pull the "mandatory" card. Guys pull out of MS events w/ injury all of the time, nothing's stopping Nadal from resting his knees anytime it is necessary.
The tour should not have to change to fit Nadal - Nadal should have adjusted his scheduling a long time ago as to not end up in the situation he was in @ RG last year. Sure the season is too long, but there are ways around that and there's nothing wrong w/ taking a MS event off here or there. But the bigger issue is Nadal's poor scheduling, which went on for far too long and obviously has taken its toll. You say 50% of the season is HC, well 45% of the season is CC, so what gives, you know?
I don't think Nadal is injured in Miami,I have not heard him say anything about this. Plus,there is another problem with Nadal: he doesn't know how to tank events he does not want to be in(see madrid). I have seem fed,djoker,murray do tank jobs early on,Nadal almost always goes to quarters or further on in big events. And like I said before there is always a media backlash,look what happened to murray when he quit marseille. Federer can be excused if he chooses to skip a event because he is GOAT,28 years old and is full of titles.
Nadal,Djoker,Murray on the other hand are young guys and they are expected to be there day in,day out,especially a mega-star like Nadal. When he skipped WB,there was real sense of disappointment among the crowd and public media even though there were enough quality players to replace him. And that was at WB. Imagine how a tournament director of a smaller tourney must feel when he has one or two top players at his tourney and they don't show up,he loses money,viewership goes down etc. While they don't have to do some of these events,there is a lot of pressure on them to go play.
45% of the tour is clay? Right. Maybe so,but the events that matter(from 500 events onwards),almost two thirds of them are on HC,with clay and grass getting the other third. Not exactly fair is it?
10% carpet(fast),20% grass(fast or slow),30% clay(slow) and 40% HC(whatever speed) for the big events would be a great spread of synthetic and natural surfaces. 50 % natural surfaces,50% synthetic. You would have fast surfaces for S&V'ers and a realm for baseliners as well. Nowadays it's more like 60% HC,30% clay and 10% grass(and I am being generous here,cause grass is basically two events,but I say 10% cause one is a slam).
Also,some of you have said that Nadal plays his clay game on HC and grass. But is anyone forced to adapt today? I saw soderling and delpo play their ballbashing game on all surfaces,with varying levels of success. I don't see any difference in what davydenko does from surface to surface.Same for djoker. Even Federer,who we is an all-rounder,plays the same baseline game with few variations from surface to surface. Reading TTW,you would think that all these guys end points really quickly but they all have long rallies on ALL SURFACES,the difference being that those guys can get some free points with the serve(or they can setup a point with the serve).
My point is that,all players have to play long rallies today(S&V is pretty much dead) but instead of balancing natural surfaces with synthetic ones,they put the players on joint pounding HC in two out of three major events and then we all wonder why many top10'ers have health issues. This is without mentioning the length of the tour. It is easy to say skip this and skip that but when you are trying to stay both healthy and competitive and most events are on HC,you have no choice but to go ahead and play(unless you are physically unable to play).
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
You act as if it's such a big burden to take events off. JMDP pulled from Cincy last year b/c he was just flat out tired from winning Washington and making finals of Canada. It's no big burden to pull from events. Nadal really should worry about people in the media complaining? You really think Nadal should play b/c the media would complain if he didn't? By this point everyone realizes that Nadal's knees are chronic, and he's going to break down sooner or later. So him playing less HC events would be looked at as good, not looked at as him being expected to be there.
Murray got flak because he pulled out at the last second seemingly for no reason and played Dubai the week after Marseille. Totally different situation. Nadal shouldn't be playing any 250s at this stage of his career.
This is the ideal schedule for Rafa
Warmup for AO (maybe not even a tourney, do an exho like Kooyong- easier on body)
AO
*rest*
Dubai
IW
Miami
*rest*
Monte Carlo
Rome
Madrid
RG
Queens (maybe pull out of Queens if he's tired after a long run @ RG)
Wimbledon
*rest*
Canada
Cincy
USO
*rest*
Beijing
Shanghai
Paris
WTF
I'm not buying the whole "Rafa needs matchplay on HC in order to stay competitive" thing. Last year as soon as he comes from injury he makes Canada QF, Cincy SF, and USO QF. So Nadal has proven that he doesn't need to play alot on HC, or any surface really, to get a good rhythm and play at a relatively high level. There's no need for him to enter extra events just to "stay competitive" - at this point his main goal should be staying healthy during the smaller events and MS events, and peaking and being fully fit for the slams. It's worked for Fed, Nadal's a veteran at this stage of his career, not a young gun, he should know by now what it takes to win on HC and shouldn't need to play extra tourneys just to "stay in rhythm".
And maybe at this point Nadal should make a decision guys like Roddick, Fed, Blake, have made and not play DC unless totally necessary. I know Rafa loves playing DC, but at this point his body should be his #1 priority, even ahead of DC commitments. For the most part he does that, but now even moreso he should just come out and say he's not going to play DC this year like Roddick, Fed, and Blake did. Again, if Nadal's knee issues are as chronic as he makes them seem at times, he should do whatever it takes to extend his career an extra 2-3 years, he can't run around like a rabbit playing every tourney under the sun. His mind may say he's 23, but his knees say he's 33.
Murray got flak because he pulled out at the last second seemingly for no reason and played Dubai the week after Marseille. Totally different situation. Nadal shouldn't be playing any 250s at this stage of his career.
This is the ideal schedule for Rafa
Warmup for AO (maybe not even a tourney, do an exho like Kooyong- easier on body)
AO
*rest*
Dubai
IW
Miami
*rest*
Monte Carlo
Rome
Madrid
RG
Queens (maybe pull out of Queens if he's tired after a long run @ RG)
Wimbledon
*rest*
Canada
Cincy
USO
*rest*
Beijing
Shanghai
Paris
WTF
I'm not buying the whole "Rafa needs matchplay on HC in order to stay competitive" thing. Last year as soon as he comes from injury he makes Canada QF, Cincy SF, and USO QF. So Nadal has proven that he doesn't need to play alot on HC, or any surface really, to get a good rhythm and play at a relatively high level. There's no need for him to enter extra events just to "stay competitive" - at this point his main goal should be staying healthy during the smaller events and MS events, and peaking and being fully fit for the slams. It's worked for Fed, Nadal's a veteran at this stage of his career, not a young gun, he should know by now what it takes to win on HC and shouldn't need to play extra tourneys just to "stay in rhythm".
And maybe at this point Nadal should make a decision guys like Roddick, Fed, Blake, have made and not play DC unless totally necessary. I know Rafa loves playing DC, but at this point his body should be his #1 priority, even ahead of DC commitments. For the most part he does that, but now even moreso he should just come out and say he's not going to play DC this year like Roddick, Fed, and Blake did. Again, if Nadal's knee issues are as chronic as he makes them seem at times, he should do whatever it takes to extend his career an extra 2-3 years, he can't run around like a rabbit playing every tourney under the sun. His mind may say he's 23, but his knees say he's 33.
TheTruth
G.O.A.T.
Can't argue with that. Did you happen to see the list djokovicgonzalez put up? The list of the wounded is unreal. They are effectively driving their biggest stars into early retirement which will ultimately lead to less interest in tennis, lower revenue, and less air time. I can't remember all of them, but...
Roddick-back from injury
Nadal-back from injury
Haas-injured list
Del Potro-injured list
Davydenko-injured list
Simon-back from injury
Nalbandian-back from injury
Feel free to add to this list
The bottom line is this isn't about Nadal, it's about the overall health of the tour. Modifications need to made, and when you put your "talent" on the worst surface for the majority of the year, your greed is causing you to shoot yourself in the foot.
P_Agony
Banned
Why is he playing doubles then? Nadal's a cool guy, but this is getting annoying.
aldeayeah
G.O.A.T.
By the way, when he says football he means soccer, which in Europe in a proffesional level is exclusively played on natural turf (big teams make a fuss all the time when they're forced to play on artificial turf).
Although in the case of basketball, his point is moot. However, hard courts are suitable for basketball because the kind of movements the sport requires.
In the case of tennis, on a hard court, one just can't use all the physical capabilities of the body without eventually hurting oneself. See Hewitt, Monfils, Nadal.
This harms players who are good athletes and who use a grinding style and benefits players who are good at hitting winners and positioning.
Is that a bad thing? Well, I think it is, but I know it's arguable.
The thing is, hard courts are staying and that's because of money. Football (soccer) is a huge cash cow in Europe so every team can afford a natural lawn field. It's also played every week. On the other hand, tennis venues are used by pros once a year and don't have the same kind of money to spare. It's a complex matter.
Although in the case of basketball, his point is moot. However, hard courts are suitable for basketball because the kind of movements the sport requires.
In the case of tennis, on a hard court, one just can't use all the physical capabilities of the body without eventually hurting oneself. See Hewitt, Monfils, Nadal.
This harms players who are good athletes and who use a grinding style and benefits players who are good at hitting winners and positioning.
Is that a bad thing? Well, I think it is, but I know it's arguable.
The thing is, hard courts are staying and that's because of money. Football (soccer) is a huge cash cow in Europe so every team can afford a natural lawn field. It's also played every week. On the other hand, tennis venues are used by pros once a year and don't have the same kind of money to spare. It's a complex matter.
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ninman
Hall of Fame
What are the causes of the injuries? How about players like Federer, who have played many, many hard court tournaments and it has never caused him an injury? How many players have had injuries because of clay or grass? Your list is meaningless. It's also more meaningless because Nadal plays doubles on hardcourts, which is not required, and plays many other tournaments that are not required.
All-rounder
Legend
Yet he plays double's.................:-?
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Nadal plays a very physical style that's demanding on the joints, and hardcourts are the worst for this.
Semi-Pro
Hall of Fame
And whose fault is that?
He should really stop complaining and take some initiative. (ie. the ones I mentioned on the previous page)
D
Deleted member 21996
Guest
lets make a compromise and every time he complaints about the surfaces, we just bum this thread instead of creating a new one?
TennezSport
Hall of Fame
What happened!........
Look what happened to Wimbledon when enough clay court specialists(CCS) complained and even boycotted the event because it was too fast. Could only be played by S&V specialists. The clay courters got their way and the big W courts and balls were slowed down, with the HCs next homogenized.
My issue with this is that the same CCS are the first to tell you that you have to learn how to play on clay as it teaches you how to develop and better thinking game. Well I say that fast Grass teaches you how to be a better S&V and touch player and you should learn how to play both to be a better all around player.
As far as Rafa's complaint, I saw this coming 4 years ago after watching him practice at the USO. I am actually surprised that it took this long to happen which is a testiment to his mental strength. He really needs to stop whining and learn how to plan his schedule better, or he is finished; plain and simple.
Cheers, TennezSport
Look what happened to Wimbledon when enough clay court specialists(CCS) complained and even boycotted the event because it was too fast. Could only be played by S&V specialists. The clay courters got their way and the big W courts and balls were slowed down, with the HCs next homogenized.
My issue with this is that the same CCS are the first to tell you that you have to learn how to play on clay as it teaches you how to develop and better thinking game. Well I say that fast Grass teaches you how to be a better S&V and touch player and you should learn how to play both to be a better all around player.
As far as Rafa's complaint, I saw this coming 4 years ago after watching him practice at the USO. I am actually surprised that it took this long to happen which is a testiment to his mental strength. He really needs to stop whining and learn how to plan his schedule better, or he is finished; plain and simple.
Cheers, TennezSport
namelessone
Legend
As far as Rafa's complaint, I saw this coming 4 years ago after watching him practice at the USO. I am actually surprised that it took this long to happen which is a testiment to his mental strength. He really needs to stop whining and learn how to plan his schedule better, or he is finished; plain and simple.
Cheers, TennezSport
Sorry if I did not understand but what did you see coming 4 years ago at the USO? Nadal complaining about HC? I did not understand cause you mentioned mental strength and I did not understand how these two issues were related.
mandy01
G.O.A.T.
If we haven't had a compromise on GOAT threads so far I don't really see this happening :lol:
Look what happened to Wimbledon when enough clay court specialists(CCS) complained and even boycotted the event because it was too fast. Could only be played by S&V specialists. The clay courters got their way and the big W courts and balls were slowed down, with the HCs next homogenized.
My issue with this is that the same CCS are the first to tell you that you have to learn how to play on clay as it teaches you how to develop and better thinking game. Well I say that fast Grass teaches you how to be a better S&V and touch player and you should learn how to play both to be a better all around player.
As far as Rafa's complaint, I saw this coming 4 years ago after watching him practice at the USO. I am actually surprised that it took this long to happen which is a testiment to his mental strength. He really needs to stop whining and learn how to plan his schedule better, or he is finished; plain and simple.
Cheers, TennezSport
I agree, it is unfortunate the clay-court specialists have been allowed to manipulate the ATP into changing playing conditions.
cork_screw
Hall of Fame
I would LOVE to see more varied surfaces. Watching clay is fun, and I would love to see Grass more. But what are you going to do? Try growing grass in the desert of Indian Wells or Dubai during the summer? I think clay is a more european thing and wouldn't carry well in the states. But these players do choose which tournaments they want to enter. There are tournaments that they need to or are forced to enter like all of the masters series events and GS, but the hardcourts are probably most managable and universally supported. But I DON'T think that long rallies on clay would decrease the fatigue factor of playing a calendar year or relieve them of this seeing as how many clay matches are grueling and run into long extended sets. Most athletes retire around 31-34 in all professional sports anyways, just like how it is in tennis already. If we shorten the season it would really hurt the lesser ranked players who need to enter into the smaller tournaments to win prize money and boost ranking points so they don't clash against a Federer in the second round. So there are reasons for everything, I think Nadal is just speaking for his own situation. I'm sure if you talked to Starace or Fognini you would get a different story seeing as how they've played close to 30 tournaments already (and don't suffer from injuries like the Nadals), whereas Murray has only played in 17 because he can afford to. Pacing yourself is the key, but that's only a luxury that top 10 players can afford to do.
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Mustard
Bionic Poster
It's not a question of fault, just that there are too many hardcourt tournaments compared with clay-court and grass-court tournaments.
With major hardcourt tournaments, we have:
Australian Open
Indian Wells
Miami
Toronto/Montreal
Cincinnati
US Open
Shanghai
Paris
World Tour Finals
With major clay-court tournaments, we have:
Monte Carlo
Rome
Madrid
French Open
And with major grass-court tournaments, we only have:
Wimbledon
I love Queen's Club, but it's only a 250 event on an official basis.
Nadal is at his best on clay, and I'd say that grass is his second best surface, which means the opportunity for him to rack up points on his favourite surfaces is limited, and the style he has to play to beat Federer is very demanding on his body.
He should scale back a bit as well, I agree. His scheduling certainly isn't the best.
miniRafa386
Hall of Fame
heres what nadal should do:
AO
Dubai
IW
Miami
Rome
Madrid
RG
Wimby
Toronto
USO
Beijing
Paris
WTF
AO
Dubai
IW
Miami
Rome
Madrid
RG
Wimby
Toronto
USO
Beijing
Paris
WTF
Mustard
Bionic Poster
I think Nadal should do this schedule:
Australian Open
Indian Wells
Miami
Monte Carlo
Barcelona
Rome
French Open
Queen's Club
Wimbledon
Toronto/Montreal
Cincinnati
US Open
Paris
World Tour Finals
Davis Cup matches throughout the year
But he needs to reduce the numbers of doubles matches.
Australian Open
Indian Wells
Miami
Monte Carlo
Barcelona
Rome
French Open
Queen's Club
Wimbledon
Toronto/Montreal
Cincinnati
US Open
Paris
World Tour Finals
Davis Cup matches throughout the year
But he needs to reduce the numbers of doubles matches.
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