klementine
Hall of Fame
Post taken out due to lack of knowledge and/or abundance of ignorance.
Last edited:
Professinal tennis player started with regular racquet that everyone uses. It doesnt matter what a Pro uses. They can beat us with a wood racquet if they wanted too. Pros like Agassi and Roddick are spoiled by the racquet companies. They get free custom racquets. Their just plain spoiled players. Pros are like rock stars, if they want something. They will always get it for free.
I'm not sure why some guy without a life has not sued these companies for false advertising.
1.) They are strongly implying or even blatantly stating that pros admired by many people use their "new" racquets when the racquets they used are not even being sold on the market anymore.
2.) If you ask the majority of racquet buyers, not us tennis fanatics, they would say they bought the racquet because they identify with someone they like watching uses them. (Use of credibility: If that guy uses that racquet, that racquet must be a good racquet.)
3.) This would mean that the no. 1 reason of sales for racquet companies is based upon a lie..
That would set interesting precedence and can be extended to all sports or any professional activity for that matter. Who would seriously expect that a race car used by a pro has anything to do with even expensive top of the line models of the same manufacturer. Or would any one think you can buy a bicycle that comes really close to the one Lance Armstrong uses? Or that pro musicians instruments have anything in common with the stuff hanging from the walls at Guitar Center?
As for the latter I can assure you that serious musicians tend to spend a lot of effort and sometimes top dollars to tweak and customize instruments for the increasing demands of their growing abilities. Just like in Tennis, pros and semi-pros end up with tools that have nothing in common with the consumer level things in the stores. You may consider that cheating but some aspects of my guitar rig may be as useless to the beginner as a formular 1 car to me. So who's going to sue Fender, Marshall, Gibson or Ferrari now?
That would set interesting precedence and can be extended to all sports or any professional activity for that matter. Who would seriously expect that a race car used by a pro has anything to do with even expensive top of the line models of the same manufacturer. Or would any one think you can buy a bicycle that comes really close to the one Lance Armstrong uses? Or that pro musicians instruments have anything in common with the stuff hanging from the walls at Guitar Center?
As for the latter I can assure you that serious musicians tend to spend a lot of effort and sometimes top dollars to tweak and customize instruments for the increasing demands of their growing abilities. Just like in Tennis, pros and semi-pros end up with tools that have nothing in common with the consumer level things in the stores. You may consider that cheating but some aspects of my guitar rig may be as useless to the beginner as a formular 1 car to me. So who's going to sue Fender, Marshall, Gibson or Ferrari now?
I’ve played Challengers and warmed up pros at a few grand slams. I don’t think I ever met anyone that picky about their racquets. This must be something exclusive to like top 10 players that get wind blown up their asses about how they’re gods among mortals.
Sure many liked to customize their racquets with some lead tape here and there but believe it or not, most used off the shelf crap that they requested from their sponsors. I just used off the shelf prostaff Wilson racquets.
Some of this top secret modification stuff honestly sounds like a lot of BS mixed in with half truths.
tomorrow's St. Petersburg Open finalist Sergiy Stakhovsky on his website talking about his racquet says;
Question,
Are your HEAD Prestige Microgel racquets customized or their specs are the same as retail HEAD Prestige Microgel which people can buy in a store?
Unseeded, Kyiv
Answer,
My racquets are the same as in a shop, the only difference is weight and balance.
I'm not sure why some guy without a life has not sued these companies for false advertising.
1.) They are strongly implying or even blatantly stating that pros admired by many people use their "new" racquets when the racquets they used are not even being sold on the market anymore.
2.) If you ask the majority of racquet buyers, not us tennis fanatics, they would say they bought the racquet because they identify with someone they like watching uses them. (Use of credibility: If that guy uses that racquet, that racquet must be a good racquet.)
3.) This would mean that the no. 1 reason of sales for racquet companies is based upon a lie..
I'm not sure why some guy without a life has not sued these companies for false advertising.
1.) They are strongly implying or even blatantly stating that pros admired by many people use their "new" racquets when the racquets they used are not even being sold on the market anymore.
2.) If you ask the majority of racquet buyers, not us tennis fanatics, they would say they bought the racquet because they identify with someone they like watching uses them. (Use of credibility: If that guy uses that racquet, that racquet must be a good racquet.)
3.) This would mean that the no. 1 reason of sales for racquet companies is based upon a lie..
I'm not sure why some guy without a life has not sued these companies for false advertising.
1.) They are strongly implying or even blatantly stating that pros admired by many people use their "new" racquets when the racquets they used are not even being sold on the market anymore.
2.) If you ask the majority of racquet buyers, not us tennis fanatics, they would say they bought the racquet because they identify with someone they like watching uses them. (Use of credibility: If that guy uses that racquet, that racquet must be a good racquet.)
3.) This would mean that the no. 1 reason of sales for racquet companies is based upon a lie..
It is not about the tweaking or customization that is going on. It is taking a a old model racquet that is out of production for the consumer that is still however in production for the players on Tour and making that old racquet look like the racquet the racquet companies are currently selling.
I don't understand why more people don't understand this principle. Marketing is fine up to a certain point, but the materials and labour used in today's racquets simply don't compare with older, classic racquets, which were of genuinely high quality.Nobody cares about pros tweaking their racquets. We do that all the time with lead tape just like the pros do.
However, like vsbabolat said, it is the fact that the pros will never even consider playing with the new line of racquets and sometimes the racquets are even from different brands.
If you are making money by deliberately lying to someone, that is a scam. No other way to put it. The only purpose of the pj is money by deceiving. = scam.
it is pretty interesting. i think alot of people are looking into this topic way to much. I play DIII tennis and I would bet my bottom dollar that pete sampras/roger federer/any DI or WTA Player could whoop my butt with a frying pan. Im not taking anything away from myself but the truth is these pro's are so naturally talented and fine tuned to perfection that a racquet would hardly make a difference. I do belive that this is important when talking about pro vs pro though. If you look at another sport that uses insane modifications its cycling. Those guys have their bikes modified by freakin math magicians. I think it just goes to show that most every sport uses modifications to their equipment and that is soley due to the incredible talent that athlets bring to their respective sport.
Virginia
what support is there for the assertion that racquets of old were made of better materials. I saw plenty of racquets break back then, saw racquets delaminate, saw pieces fall of them. You sound like my grandmother whining that they don't make 'em like they used to. I don't buy it. They seemed better back then because they were HEAVIER, which connotes a feeling of substance and quality, but players now favor lighter racquets which of course SEEM flimsier and are less substantial. This is not a reflection on quality of material but a change in preferences.
Virginia
what support is there for the assertion that racquets of old were made of better materials. I saw plenty of racquets break back then, saw racquets delaminate, saw pieces fall of them. You sound like my grandmother whining that they don't make 'em like they used to. I don't buy it. They seemed better back then because they were HEAVIER, which connotes a feeling of substance and quality, but players now favor lighter racquets which of course SEEM flimsier and are less substantial. This is not a reflection on quality of material but a change in preferences.
There's plenty of anecdotal evidence to confirm I'm right about the better quality of racquets made in the 80's. It's nothing to do with weight - it's the type of graphite used, combined with the manufacturing process.Virginia
what support is there for the assertion that racquets of old were made of better materials. I saw plenty of racquets break back then, saw racquets delaminate, saw pieces fall of them. You sound like my grandmother whining that they don't make 'em like they used to. I don't buy it. They seemed better back then because they were HEAVIER, which connotes a feeling of substance and quality, but players now favor lighter racquets which of course SEEM flimsier and are less substantial. This is not a reflection on quality of material but a change in preferences.
There's plenty of anecdotal evidence to confirm I'm right about the better quality of racquets made in the 80's. It's nothing to do with weight - it's the type of graphite used, combined with the manufacturing process.
Your grandmother is probably right by the way and to describe grandmothers as "whining" is less than gracious. But then, why am I not surprised about that?
can you give some evidence to me? (Links to tt.TW posts / topics are fine)
Paint jobs? I will add this. Back in 2000 I held three actual players racquets. The players were Sampras, Agassi, and Rafter. These were the "real" racquets that the actual players used on the tour. These were brought in by one of the head figures of the USRSA who was giving a conference to my program and educating us on the difference between what is sold and what is actually used. He brought in both.
Sampras pro staff 6.0.....Nothing you can buy.....ever. It was a completely different mold. I have played with every pro staff 6.0 that was ever made for the public. The Sampras racquet was different all around. The frame was thicker in all dimensions. The Grommet holes were much small er and had custom grommets to compensate for this. It was kind of like a pro staff on steroids. Obvioussly it was much heavier. There were no multiple layers of lead tape at 9 and 3. Just one layer. All that added weight we hear about is from the frame itself which is noticably thicker. I didnt measure the beam but it was around the thickness of a wood racquet. I would say 1-2mm thicker than stock. The throat was also thicker. We were told that if you cut the frames we would notice that the stock pro staffs are hollow while the actual Sampras racquet is not.
Agassi radical.......cant buy it. Its a box beam. Its also thicker, heavier, smaller grommet holes. You cant buy it.
Rafters (Titanium) frame looked pretty much like the stock frame mold. I could not spot anything. It was heavier but that was about it. Could have been weighted but I dont know for sure. We were told it was a painted version of his old precision that he used in 97 and that it was also more flexible than the stock version due to a larger composition of fiberglass in the manufacturing process. It was said to measure in at around 12.6 ounces unstrung.
Thats all I can add from that experience. The Sampras frame was the most interesting. I have never seen anything like it. Truely unique. Nothing modern about it.
Back in the 80s you could buy the frames the players used to some extent. In todays market they are somewhat toylike clones to that which is actually used.
Yes the Original Radical Trisys 260 Oversize was boxbeam. Agassi used and still uses the Original Radical Trisys 260 Oversize today with the current cosmetics. You could buy the same Mold that Agassi used/uses with the Original Radical Trisys 260 Oversize/Radical Tour 690. The Mold changed on the Consumer Radicals in 1999.I dont belive the original Trisis 260 mold was a box beam so as of around 2000 when I was able to handle the frame I dont think he was useing the trisis mold any more. I am talking a real box beam here. Like a pro staff 6.0 or the older head composite master type frames.
The Sampras racquet was not the St. Vincent (I used to play with St. Vincents). He may of used that at some point in his career (obvioussly early on) . At some point he had a custom mold designed and they used the Pro Staff paint scheme. These frames were thicker all around. I am guessing 20mm. Anyone familiar with pro staff would notice the difference right away.
Its really difficult to pick up on television.
I always believed he played with the St. Vincents. I was very surprised when I actually got my hands on one of his frames. Its a different mold. You cant buy it.
Same goes for the Agassi frame. Different mold. Throat bridge, throat, and head have a noticable thicker cross section. You cant buy it.
Rafters frame looked like a stock mold but the materials were said to be different (fiberglass, more flex, more weight). You cant buy it.
These racquets were given to the USRSA from the players themselves (believe he said at the US Open).
Oh......and you cant buy them.
Oddly enough, it feels more like a blocky or square Wilson grip shape more than say the round feel of a Prince grip.
Here are some pics of the racquet:
That may be one of Agassis old radicals but thats not the same mold he was useing in 2000. I guess I should clarify. When I say box beam I mean square beam. The edges are not rounded. Yhe inside corners of the throat did not look like that. Its was more similar to the older head grapites from the 80s. Obvioussly thats not what it was but I am just trying to give you a description of the type of angles used in the actual mode of the agassi frame.
For the life of me I cannot remember the paint job of that agassi frame. There have bben so many. I think it was painted like the titanium version sold on the shelves. I know it doesnt really matter but I am trying to give you some sort of time frame here. I wish I would of brought my scale with me so I could have weighed them. We did not have that equipment at the facility I was at. I had maybe 90 seconds to look the frames over.
As far as the Sampras frame goes. Like I said, I played with St. Vincents for a long time. They were not St. Vincents. The were not the China Pro Staffs. They were not pro staffs. They were just painted like them. It was a totally custom mold. The frames were noticably thicker in all dimensions. Grommets were custom. Nothing was the same as any prostaff I have used (and thats pretty much all 6.0s).
If I could relate the Sampras pro staff to anything in terms of external dimensions I would probably say it was close to the 85 version of the Jim Courier prostaff stars and stripes that was sold to the public. I remember those being around 20mm and thats pretty much where these were. The cross section of the throat was thicker as well though. Way heavier as well. And this was not just lead tape. The head only had one layer of tape.
This was all confirmed from the USRSA. Sampras had a custom mold. Believe me....people were asking a lot of questions about the Sampras frame.
This whole St. Vincent/ Sampras thing is a bit over blown. I am starting to think its a hogwash put of there by racquet sellers. I have and watch a lot of old tennis matches. 1995 US Open.....McEnroe states during a broadcast that Courier uses the "old" prostaffs that are not made anymore and he was searching the country to scrounge up all he could. I believe they are the St. Vincents but not 100% sure (what else would they be?). He states that the current pro staff that wilson makes for Sampras is too stiff for Jim and heavier than the older versions (St Vincent). Jim had been trying to take 10 grams off the head of the current stock frame and was having problems.
Sampras was playing with the current (at the time version) of the prostaff in 1995. Sometime between then and 2000 he went to a completely different mold. I have heard that it was a weight thing. He just wanted to up the weight again. I have always wondered what the weight progression of his racquet was through the years.
If you look really, really, and I mean realy close at some of the closeups in television broadcasts you can see there is something slightly different about the Sampras prostaff in the late 90s. I have been converting hundreds of vhs matches to DVD the last two years and I could see it here and there in the 1999 wimbledon matches. Until I actually held one of petes sticks it never even occured to me. A few times I remember thinking it looked thicker but thought it was just some optical illusion. Then I was watching a match where he broke a string and they did a close up and .....there it was. The thoat, beam width, grommet holes etc. It was the version that I held.
this is because the materials they used back then were of high grade and qaulity control was very strict, just hit with a prestige LM or MG then hit with a prestige classic and feel the differance, Today its all chinese junk why do you think no atp players use what we can get off the shelf??? unfortunatley the tennis raquet business is declining in time instead of advancing like Televisions and computers. Nano, k factor,03 Aero gel, microgel, liquid metal is all a joke constructed together with rubbish just to get your money! If you doubt me try a head prestige classic, wilson pro staff 85, prince original graphite, yamaha secret etc. next time your at a raquet store have a few hits with the Nadal aero babolat and you will see that there is no way in hell nadal would actually be using it, nice try Babolat!
Andy Murray's game is Prestige, not radical... just throwing that out there for the million and first time! ;P
Andy Murray's game is Prestige, not radical... just throwing that out there for the million and first time! ;P