tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
Since there are 9 districts in the Section and each NTRP division usually has 10 teams, does anyone know the procedure Southern's uses to determine which state will get the Wild Card to allow for 10 teams?
Southern Sectionals
- Thread starter tennis_tater
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tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
Thanks for the info. Anyone know what state gets the wildcard in 4.0 this year?
I think AR might be getting the WC this year for 4.0, spoke with one of the players on the favorites to win AR and he mentioned AR would be getting 2 teams in this year for 4.0 Men. I'll do some double-checking tomorrow and let you know.
tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
Thanks for the info.
Just curious, you mention "favorite" to win Ark. state. I thought it was interesting in the SC State thread two-three weeks ago that posters were talking about the favorite to win their state...and the favorite ended up coming through and winning SC State. While I think most of us have a pretty good idea as to who the favorites are to win their local leagues, on the few teams I've been on that have gone to state, I'm not sure if I was ever truly able to identify a favorite to win it all. Do you guys find that you have the same players making it to state every year and that there's always one or two teams you can point the finger at and say that is the team that is going to win it all even before the tournament is played?
Just curious, you mention "favorite" to win Ark. state. I thought it was interesting in the SC State thread two-three weeks ago that posters were talking about the favorite to win their state...and the favorite ended up coming through and winning SC State. While I think most of us have a pretty good idea as to who the favorites are to win their local leagues, on the few teams I've been on that have gone to state, I'm not sure if I was ever truly able to identify a favorite to win it all. Do you guys find that you have the same players making it to state every year and that there's always one or two teams you can point the finger at and say that is the team that is going to win it all even before the tournament is played?
SCALLSTARS
New User
I do not think the team that is the "favorite" usually wins it. There is always a team that is overlooked and wins the majority of the time. Last year the upstate thought the team I was on was the favorite and we ran into a team that beat us 4 to 1 pretty handily and they took it all. Nobody even had them in the conversation. I think it is pretty tough to identify a true favorite as with all the bump ups the leagues dynamic changes every year.
tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that loss was in today's finals. If that's the case, then if Arky gets the WC, the favorite will be going to Sectionals regardless.
SF of Tournament.
Jonesboro faces Rogers in Finals, probably has started right now.
Tennis Phanatic
New User
Most people in the upstate also know your captain made some questionable decisions that had an adverse impact on your team. You can have the best team on paper but if your captain doesn't play every match to win and takes things for granted, the end result is usually not good.
tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
Well, its always easy to second guess a captain's decision once the results are known. As a former captain, deciding whether to play straight up or flop courts is often times a gamble and crap-shoot as what your opponent's captain does (if he is a good captain) is often times unpredictable as well.
tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
Ok, so I'm assuming both of those teams are in for Sectionals.
Was looking at the other districts to see who has played their State tournaments, and when I was looking at Georgia, I saw they had a 4.0 State Championship winner and then a 4.0 LOW State Champion. Does anyone know the difference between these two and which, if not both, go to Sectionals?
SweetH2O
Rookie
I play in a 4.0 low league. You have to be in the bottom half of the 4.0 range of dynamic ratings (or a 3.5) to play on a 4.0 low team. It's a way to get more competitive matches in areas that have enough players to support further segmenting of the levels.
I don't think the low teams advance any farther than states if I'm not mistaken.
I don't think the low teams advance any farther than states if I'm not mistaken.
tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
Thanks for the response. I had never heard of a LOW division. That's sounds like an interesting concept to provide for more competitive tennis.
Tennis Phanatic
New User
Unfortunately I disagree with you here. When a captain doesn't play his best singles player AND his best doubles team and they end up losing the match 3-2, that is not me second guessing him. That is plain stupidity on his part.
tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
How do you find this out? I see they have already started breaking up the divisions for 4.0, but they have one divison with 5 teams and the other with 3 teams. And no state listed is listed twice.
When they bumped a lot of people from 3.5 to 4.0 the other year it left a glut of folks at 4.0. Georgia has so many players especially in the Atlanta area there are enough to field a 4.0 LOW league.
tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
Looks like miss may have gotten the wc for 4.0
Tennis Phanatic
New User
I think it is tough to compare teams from different states, since there is no common reference point and in most cases you don't know players from other states, but it is still fun to do. Based on looking at the 4.0 teams online, I would say the top 4.0 teams at sectionals will be Tennessee, Georgia and Alabama, with Tennessee being the favorite to win it all.
tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
Because of all of the bantering that went back and forth on this forum in the 4.0 Nationals thread about the self-rating cheating and DQ's between the Alabama and Kentucky teams that played in the 4.0 finals last year, and Bear's posts about the Kentucky league coordinator turning a blind eye to Kentucky's "self-rating" of former college players, I just took a quick 10 minute look into Kentucky's team and found that probably 1/2 have played 4.0/4.5 for years, 3-4 of the players were 4.5's in the early 2000's and then appear to have been able to re-rate 2 years ago before the rule change (3 of these guys were 4.5's and were brave enough to play up in a 5.0 league at some point), 1 guy may be an ex-Division 3 college player (may be different guy, but college player found has same name and school isn't too far from home town listed for league player), and another player may be sandbagging (self-rated as 4.0, but won 2 local league matches against 4.0's, but then lost when paired with another 4.0 6-0, 6-0 to two 3.5 players from the worst team in the their league...but then goes to state and wins all of his singles matches easy....sandbagger????). Maybe I'm off base, especially without looking at any other teams, or really having any personal knowledge about the Ky. team or their players, but Kentucky appears to look pretty good on paper as well.
Let me guess, is the TN team from Chattanooga?
tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
Looks like the TN team is from Memphis.
Suprised you see that team as one of the favorites. However I am pulling for them!
tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
I didn't label Memphis as one of the favorites; believe one of the other posters did. Without really looking at all the teams in detail, looks like Alabama and Kentucky will be really strong again this year.
JuliusWinto
Rookie
We lost one match as a team all season, 4-1 to Memphis. They are really tough, even though I managed to lose 12-10 in a tiebreak to one of their NAIA players. They have an even better singles player that they pulled out for a match against another team that had only played two matches in the regular season before he played in the state final. I think their team knows how to work the system better than anyone else. Look out.
tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
Looks like the player they played only twice and pulled out for the finals is also the captain of the Arkansas 4.0 team that will be playing at Sectionals as well...since he is the captain of the Arkansas team, and as it appears they have a smaller team, I would think this player would "declare" and play for the Arkansas team and not the Memphis team.
JuliusWinto
Rookie
Wow, that's crazy that he is on two teams going to sectionals. Never heard of that before. That's not the guy I meant, though. I meant John D. F. They pulled him out to play in the final match of our group, instead of the state final. He beat a really good player in a tiebreak that I lost to.
Tennis Phanatic
New User
In my opinion this is what is ruining USTA league tennis, when USTA league officials look the other way instead of doing the right thing and at least trying to end obvious cases of sandbagging.
The 4.0 TN team is a perfect example of a team that pushes the rules as far as possible and no one does anything about it. They have players from three states (Tennessee, Arkansas and Kentucky) on the team, which should not be allowed, although it is not against the rules. This team already had one sandbagger (Stepehn Juel) get DQ'd, even though he did his best to stay down by retiring several matches he was winning. They also have another self-rated player (Michael Garner) who has only played 3 matches. You don't have to be a genius to figure out he is sandbagging and will probably destroy everyone at sectionals. This is a perfect example when USTA should step in and not allow this player to play at sectionals.
Tennis Phanatic
New User
To continue my thoughts from my previous post, the 4.0 KY and TN teams will probably destroy most of the teams at sectionals because they know how to work the system and USTA officials don't do anything about it. I realize not everyone who plays USTA league tennis cares about advancing as far as possible, but most players do want to play competitive matches. It is no fun playing a match when you know you have no chance of winning. Over the past few years I have known personally and heard second-hand dozens of players who no longer play USTA league tennis because they are tired of the sandbagging that goes on with USTA continuing to do nothing about it. I think the problem will only get worse in the future as more and more players realize you can have fun playing tennis outside of USTA leagues.
That's actually not uncommon at all in Middle States. A lot of people play in NJ, PA, and DE, especially the stronger players that get recruited to cross districts. We just had PA districts this past weekend. The team that won did so on the backs of their two singles players who won 5 of 6 matches. Both those singles players as well as the #1 doubles pair on that team all play for a DE team that is first in their league and headed for DE districts as one of the favorites. One of the other DE teams in districts has 4 people shared with a team that has made districts in NJ. Neither of these playoffs has happened, but in this case, you could also end up with 4 players qualified for sectionals with 2 different teams.
A couple years ago, there was a guy who played in DE and NJ in 3.5 who played in districts in both NJ and DE where both teams won, declared for DE at sectionals, won the only court against his NJ team that won sectionals, and then re-joined the NJ guys at nationals.
Crossing over and playing on multiple teams in different states is not a problem IMO. People do it all the time around here, and I have played in both NJ and PA for several years. If it helps people enable sandbagging, then the sandbagging is the problem, not playing on multiple teams.
Also, retiring when you are winning is pointless. The computer looks at games won in the dynamic calculation, so retiring up 6-1 5-0 or something is just like winning 6-1 5-0 to the computer. It just cost your team a court in a potential tiebreaker situation if you have any competition in the league.
goober
Legend
Can you get strikes against you for retired games?
If you look up this guy's record, it sure seems that way. I don't see why you wouldn't.
JuliusWinto
Rookie
Anybody here playing in sectionals?
tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
I should be there.
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rainman007
Rookie
rainman007
Rookie
So by everyones analysis who is the biggest cheater?
if kentucky or tennessee gets beat at sectional and whoever is doing the cryings state wins what does that say about your team?? if they do all that you accuse them of and still get hammered lol... (by the way no i'm not playing at southern)
You should count the number of titles over the last 10 years for southern and see which state is the biggest dynasty cheater..
Also of the southern sectional winner you should see how many teams beat them at nationals and see who was the biggest cheater overall
The usta cant really do much about sandbaggers they put a system in place and allow peoples character to shine.. They could count every single match you play for the year though adult singles mixed combo tournaments etc... to get a more accurate rating..
The usta could implement a rule that no self rated player can play higher than the local league but they may or may not lose money doing that
as far as the sanbagging though its left up to people and thats why its failing not the system..
if kentucky or tennessee gets beat at sectional and whoever is doing the cryings state wins what does that say about your team?? if they do all that you accuse them of and still get hammered lol... (by the way no i'm not playing at southern)
You should count the number of titles over the last 10 years for southern and see which state is the biggest dynasty cheater..
Also of the southern sectional winner you should see how many teams beat them at nationals and see who was the biggest cheater overall
The usta cant really do much about sandbaggers they put a system in place and allow peoples character to shine.. They could count every single match you play for the year though adult singles mixed combo tournaments etc... to get a more accurate rating..
The usta could implement a rule that no self rated player can play higher than the local league but they may or may not lose money doing that
as far as the sanbagging though its left up to people and thats why its failing not the system..
tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
I never said anything about Kentucky being “cheaters” and don’t know anything about their players or the Tennessee team or their players, or really any other teams in the Sectionals for that matter. All I know is that the Alabama player/captain who was posting on here last year made allegations about the Kentucky team they beat in the finals having improper self-ratings; however, as you said, and as I asked him last year, what does that say about the Alabama team since they beat the very Kentucky team he was complaining about???
As far as this year’s Kentucky team, I just said, on paper, they looked strong as they had a number of players who played at higher levels years ago (4.5/5.0) and then they had a self-rate, who had an odd score that makes it look like they were trying to protect him. Now, why some of those guys who used to play 4.5 and sometimes 5.0 are rated 4.0’s today, I don’t know. Maybe they got bumped down by the computer b/c they didn’t do well in those higher levels years ago. Maybe they were injured at some point and were granted medical appeals. Maybe they sat out of league for a couple of years and were able to re-rate two years ago before the USTA closed that loop-hole last year. Maybe there is some legitimate explanation why their “self-rate” player who won all of his 4.0 matches against 4.0’s lost 6-0, 6-0 to two 3.5’s. Whether he was trying to sandbag to protect his rating doesn’t necessarily mean that he is not a 4.0 player. I don’t know.
As far as the state with the most titles and “biggest dynasty cheater” over the past ten years, I looked at the past winners going back to 2002 and don’t think there is one “biggest dynasty cheater” out there.
2010 – Alabama defeated Kentucky in Southern finals and won the NC;
2009 – Arkansas defeated Kentucky in Southern finals and lost to the Eastern section team in the NC finals;
2008 – North Carolina defeated Alabama in the Southern finals and lost to So. Cal. and Caribbean at Nationals;
2007 – Louisiana defeated Kentucky in Southern finals and lost to No. Cal and Texas at Nationals;
2006 – Alabama defeated North Carolina in Southern finals and lost to No. Cal in Nationals;
2005 – Louisiana defeated Georgia in Southern finals and won the NC;
2004 - Kentucky defeated North Carolina in the Southern finals and lost to the Middle States and ******** at Nationals;
2003 – North Carolina defeated South Carolina in the Southern finals and lost to Southwest, Caribbean, and ****** at Nationals.
Looking at those statistics alone, Kentucky has made it to the finals 4 of the past 8 years. Louisiana, Alabama, and North Carolina have all won it twice. Alabama and Louisiana have won a NC, Ark. lost in the NC finals, and the other winners didn’t fair very well at Nationals.
tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
Looks like Alabama and Louisiana are doing pretty good in the Men's divisions for the 1st week of Sectionals:
2.5 - Alabama appears to be the winner;
3.0 - Louisiana v. Alabama in the finals;
3.5 - Louisiana v. Alabama in the finals;
Senior 4.0 - Louisiana A v. Louisiana B in the finals
2.5 - Alabama appears to be the winner;
3.0 - Louisiana v. Alabama in the finals;
3.5 - Louisiana v. Alabama in the finals;
Senior 4.0 - Louisiana A v. Louisiana B in the finals
I'm pretty sure JDF did not play college tennis. Where did he play?
Tennessee does not have anyone out of level.
Stephan Juel played 4.5. He was hurt. One 4.5 match he barley completed due to injury. The only one he won he was cramping against an average 50 yr old + 4.5 at best. But you were there, right? So I'm sure you know best.
Michael has been bumped to 4.0. I'm sure you know him too and his playing ability.
File a protest if you're so sure of yourself. Let us know your results.
rainman007
Rookie
interesting research thanks..
rainman007
Rookie
Do you play on Louisiana or Georgia LOL i would guess Louisiana
kentucky is 0-2 and tennessee won a match that involved 4 tiebreaks... what are these other teams doing if its that close..
Looks like its gonna be Louisiana, Georgia, or Tennessee
but if kentucky and tennessee know how to "work" the system why is it in the last 8 years their combined southern championships thanks to research by tennis tater is a big fat 0...)COMBINED)
however Louisiana, Alabama, and North Carolina have 2 titles each in the last 8 years Alabama and Louisiana have won a national championship ????????????????????????????????
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tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
Bama is looking very good in the standings and are a very good team. But its not like they are blowing out the competition. And it hasnt "gotten ugly" with anyone in their division, I'm not sure why one would expect that to happen in the finals. They got 3 third set wins over Louisiana (with 4 matches going to 3 rd sets) and 2 third set wins against Kentucky. A few points here and there, they could have two losses. They even squeaked by Arkansas 3-2. Like I said, they are a very good team and it wouldn't surprise me if they won the tournament. But I'm sure whoever comes out of the other side will be a very good team as well and will push bama as the other teams have.
tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
I'm not saying this years Kentucky did anything to "work the system" as they seemed on the same level as everyone else in division 1. And having seen all the 4.0 teams at sectionals this week, there hasn't been any team that I've seen where I thought there was improper ratings, or someone working the system.
tennis_tater
Semi-Pro
However, I think Kentucky having 4 teams in the finals in past 8 years says something, and same for bama if another team from same club as last years national champs wins the tournament. Maybe these towns/clubs have guys who are more focused on recruiting with the one purpose to "go all the way" than maybe in some other areas. And maybe prior success by previous teams in their areas has fed into that. Or maybe their respective players are coming through in the clutch and winning key points in deciding 3rd sets.
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JuliusWinto
Rookie
I was looking up results for Memphis (They're leading their group), and so I decided to look at the leader from the other group, Alabama. I clicked on Butch Barker randomly, and he is listed as a 4.5 for some reason, even though he played a match at 4.0 sectionals today. Anybody know what's up with this?
Very common situation - a player "qualifies" on
A Fall team as a 4.0 - year end ratings bump
Them up to a 4.5 rating. However - because they
Qualified when they were 4.0 they can
Play as 4.0
