Cult of Paceless Spin Pushers?

TimothyO · Oct 7, 2011

I've played my share of no pace pushers and finally learned how to beat them by learning how to put away floaters confidently with top spin. I'm talking hard hitting top spin deep into the court. I now love floating ducks and can confidently attack them without giving up points...after tons of practice doing just that!

Recently, after hitting with several higher level players (4.0+) and then last night with a fellow who had played competitively in his younger days, I've began to notice there's a different sort of "skilled" pusher.

The skilled pusher can hit with pace if needed but never goes for winners, hits the middle of the court, can hit with extraordinary top and back spin...heck, every kind of spin! But even his spinniest shots get any pace mostly from the spin. They leap off the court when hit with top spin but that's not too fast.

It seems like the Cult of Powerless Spin is dominant in low and mid-level tennis and every middle aged guy spends his time trying to hit weird bouncy spin shots with his poly-strung APD.

So now I'm learning how to read these shots better so that eventually I can T off on them with confidence. The fellow I played last night was really nice and he explained how, for example, what looks like a top spin forehand from him can acually be a back spin shot the bounces straight up and then dies straight down.

I also find it interesting, and reassuring, that as I get better at reading these spin shots and T off on them these guys can't handle the pace. It seems they're used to hitting floaty spinny shots to each other or getting dink shots from lower level players. Connect with a powerful top spin shot and they either wiff or frame it with a poorly time extreme spin shot attempt since the ball is coming in too fast.

The guy I played last night said that some of my strokes were easily 4.5+ and that consistency will come with time (have been playing for a year). He also readly declared himself a Skilled Spinny Pusher and said that they are indeed common in low/mid level tennis and that consistent, hard pace doesn't really win matches until 4.5+ because that's when you can produce high pace with spin CONSISTENTLY (he clearly played at a high level in college+ but decided a career in finance was more sensible given the challenges of making a living as a pro.)

He said lots of 3.0 to 4.0 players try to hit like the pros, hard and with top spin, buy it's really tough to do under match conditions with enough consistency to win matches without too many unforced errors. I was absolutely guilty of that last night as I'm determined to learn how to read spinny, weird breaking, low pace shots and return them with as much accuracy and pace as I can low level dinked floaters.

So, in your opnion, was this guy's description of mid level rec tennis accurate? Are the most successful mid level 3.5+/- players those who simply hit to the middle? Is the Cult of Paceless Spin truly dominant as Nadal-wannabees focus on spin, spin, spin to the exclusion of pace since it's safer?

EDIT...I also noticed something else about these guys. Loads of wrist action and little to no shoulder turn! They hit open stance and hit like they're playing pin pong. All arm and wrist. May explain the lack of power.

Power Player · Oct 7, 2011

Hang on, you have been playing for 1 year and your strokes are easily 4.5+?

Sorry, but no.

That guy was just being nice and trying to tell you to hit the ball more consistently.

arche3 · Oct 7, 2011

At the lower levels the guys hit these weird shots because they can't hit anything else.

If you are asking these questions its probably just you have not played tennis long enough. No way will I confuse a backspin ball with a topspin ball lol.

dozu · Oct 7, 2011

^^^ not so fast... you haven't seen dozu's backspin yet.

TimothyO · Oct 7, 2011

Power Player said:
Hang on, you have been playing for 1 year and your strokes are easily 4.5+?

Sorry, but no.

That guy was just being nice and trying to tell you to hit the ball more consistently.

No, he said SOME of my strokes LAST NIGHT were 4.5. That's not the same thing as having 4.5 strokes.

When I'm really focused, have time to prepare, and get presented with a moderately paced ball on a straight path, yes, I can turn uni-turn my shoulders, get my rkt back, step with left arm across body, swing from low to high, make contact out in front looking the ball into the string bed, brush up the back of the ball, and finish properly with a complete follow through, all while maintaining a relaxed grip and loose arm. It ain't rocket science and years of martial arts instruction (and Catholic schooling) have taught me to follow directions well!

But there's a difference between that and playing 4.5 tennis. I did in fact pull off several perect shots like that last night, three or four for cross court winners and one for a down the line return winner. Note, these were all forehands from the deuce side...my serve and back hand are not nearly as good.

So please don't over state the case. When presented with the right opportunity I can do everything I'm supposed to. But rushed or uncertain of the ball's path, no, I can't. I need to see more such balls before I'll be able to predict their flight path well enough to prepare early enough to do all the things I'm supposed. My foot work is good, probably due to martial arts and fencing. Just need more tennis experience.

TennisCJC · Oct 7, 2011

TimothyO said:
I've played my share of no pace pushers and finally learned how to beat them by learning how to put away floaters confidently with top spin. I'm talking hard hitting top spin deep into the court. I now love floating ducks and can confidently attack them without giving up points...after tons of practice doing just that!

Recently, after hitting with several higher level players (4.0+) and then last night with a fellow who had played competitively in his younger days, I've began to notice there's a different sort of "skilled" pusher.

The skilled pusher can hit with pace if needed but never goes for winners, hits the middle of the court, can hit with extraordinary top and back spin...heck, every kind of spin! But even his spinniest shots get any pace mostly from the spin. They leap off the court when hit with top spin but that's not too fast.

It seems like the Cult of Powerless Spin is dominant in low and mid-level tennis and every middle aged guy spends his time trying to hit weird bouncy spin shots with his poly-strung APD.

So now I'm learning how to read these shots better so that eventually I can T off on them with confidence. The fellow I played last night was really nice and he explained how, for example, what looks like a top spin forehand from him can acually be a back spin shot the bounces straight up and then dies straight down.

I also find it interesting, and reassuring, that as I get better at reading these spin shots and T off on them these guys can't handle the pace. It seems they're used to hitting floaty spinny shots to each other or getting dink shots from lower level players. Connect with a powerful top spin shot and they either wiff or frame it with a poorly time extreme spin shot attempt since the ball is coming in too fast.

The guy I played last night said that some of my strokes were easily 4.5+ and that consistency will come with time (have been playing for a year). He also readly declared himself a Skilled Spinny Pusher and said that they are indeed common in low/mid level tennis and that consistent, hard pace doesn't really win matches until 4.5+ because that's when you can produce high pace with spin CONSISTENTLY (he clearly played at a high level in college+ but decided a career in finance was more sensible given the challenges of making a living as a pro.)

He said lots of 3.0 to 4.0 players try to hit like the pros, hard and with top spin, buy it's really tough to do under match conditions with enough consistency to win matches without too many unforced errors. I was absolutely guilty of that last night as I'm determined to learn how to read spinny, weird breaking, low pace shots and return them with as much accuracy and pace as I can low level dinked floaters.

So, in your opnion, was this guy's description of mid level rec tennis accurate? Are the most successful mid level 3.5+/- players those who simply hit to the middle? Is the Cult of Paceless Spin truly dominant as Nadal-wannabees focus on spin, spin, spin to the exclusion of pace since it's safer?

EDIT...I also noticed something else about these guys. Loads of wrist action and little to no shoulder turn! They hit open stance and hit like they're playing pin pong. All arm and wrist. May explain the lack of power.

At 4.0 level, you will see players who can consistently hit a variety of spin and pace. Players with fairly consistent topspin forehands that have good pace are common. A number of the players will have good backhands hit with topspin and/or underspin too. In general, the backhands will not be as strong and not as consistent as the forehand but there will be a few exceptions with guys that have better backhands. You will also see guys who can hit 1st serves with pace, and slice and kick serves with pretty good movement.

At least that's my experience of USTA 4.0 level. There are quite a few ex-college players and a few older teaching pros say at the top of the 4.0 level and these guys generally are pretty solid with all the strokes but maybe have a weakness such as movement for the older guys or a weaker backhand.

If you make the city or state playoffs at 4.0, it will be a pretty good level of tennis.

4.5 level will generally have all the 4.0 attributes but maybe add one shot that is really strong or bump overall pace, consistency and variety up by 10%. Movement also is much better at 4.5 level.

Power Player · Oct 7, 2011

4.5 tennis is not about how nice your strokes are. It is about how consistent and well placed they are. That is why anyone who says "some" of them are 4.5 is just petting your head.

TimothyO · Oct 7, 2011

arche3 said:
At the lower levels the guys hit these weird shots because they can't hit anything else.

If you are asking these questions its probably just you have not played tennis long enough. No way will I confuse a backspin ball with a topspin ball lol.

Absolutely agree that I haven't played enough yet.

But last night for the first time I understood all that "disguise your shot" talk I see in tennis instructional materials.

And as the night progressed I did get better at reading his shots.

The thing is his top spin forehand and weird under spin forehand had very similar swing paths at the arm level. But at wrist level he would change the racquet's path at the last moment so swing path wasn't a good clue.

Both shots also has similar arcs and later I figured out the difference.

On the top spin shot he hit with more spin than forward momentum while on the under spin version it was more forward momentum. So as they acred over the net speed was similar but on bouncing the behavior was polar opposites. The top spin jumped as expected but the under spin died. I actually had an easier time with the top spin shots as they popped up and that's where I got my cross court winners.

Vs the under spin shots I had to rush forward and extra step or two without proper preparation.

TimothyO · Oct 7, 2011

Power Player said:
4.5 tennis is not about how nice your strokes are. It is about how consistent and well placed they are. That is why anyone who says "some" of them are 4.5 is just petting your head.

I would have to disagree with that somewhat. Setting aside the specific level, yes, there are differences in strokes between a lower level player and a higher level player.

Perhaps you haven't seen enough tennis played but lower level players often slap at the ball, poke it, etc. while higher level players can do what the laws of physics demand to get the ball over and in with pace and accuracy...and those laws require certain biomechanics resulting in what looks like a soild tennis stroke.

On the other hand, I fully agree that hitting those strokes consistently is what separates mid level players from higher level players. I can hit a perfect stroke but can't yet do so under match conditions against better players who can radically change up pace and spin. I don't have the experience to do that at all and it will take years of matches.

So don't get your undies in a bunch over semantics between two guys playing a friendly game on a pleasant fall evening, forget that he used the shorthand expression 4.5 level strokes. He simply meant that I had some shots that higher level players can pull off routinely while I need more experience to do the same thing consistently. It's really that simple.

BobFL · Oct 7, 2011

TimothyO said:
I would have to disagree with that somewhat. Setting aside the specific level, yes, there are differences in strokes between a lower level player and a higher level player.

Perhaps you haven't seen enough tennis played but lower level players often slap at the ball, poke it, etc. while higher level players can do what the laws of physics demand to get the ball over and in with pace and accuracy...and those laws require certain biomechanics resulting in what looks like a soild tennis stroke.

On the other hand, I fully agree that hitting those strokes consistently is what separates mid level players from higher level players. I can hit a perfect stroke but can't yet do so under match conditions against better players who can radically change up pace and spin. I don't have the experience to do that at all and it will take years of matches.

So don't get your undies in a bunch over semantics between two guys playing a friendly game on a pleasant fall evening, forget that he used the shorthand expression 4.5 level strokes. He simply meant that I had some shots that higher level players can pull off routinely while I need more experience to do the same thing consistently. It's really that simple.

You are lucky to have 2P in your thread. He will tell you as it is and he is totally right.

Now, the bolded part just hurts my synapses. What you said doesn't make any sense. Firstly, no you cannot hit a perfect shot. Secondly, you don't need experience you need quality. Change you need is qualitative not quantitative. Once you realize that you'll be on the right path and I certainly wish you luck.

Power Player · Oct 7, 2011

Dude I have been playing tennis half my life. My undies are not in a bunch, but for you to start talking like I haven't seen a lot of tennis or you are giving me an education shows yours are.

Anyway everything you just said shows lack of experience. there are tons of different (ugly, pretty, whatever) strokes in 4.5 level tennis, and you just haven't seen them. The main link is they are consistent and they work.

EDIT..and thanks big serving BobFL

high five.

TimothyO · Oct 7, 2011

Power Player said:
Dude I have been playing tennis half my life. My undies are not in a bunch, but for you to start talking like I haven't seen a lot of tennis or you are giving me an education shows yours are.

Anyway everything you just said shows lack of experience. there are tons of different (ugly, pretty, whatever) strokes in 4.5 level tennis, and you just haven't seen them. The main link is they are consistent and they work.

EDIT..and thanks big serving BobFL high five.

Yeah, there are ugly strokes at 4.5+. I've seen them too. And they still manage to win! Strange huh.

But you seem to be arguing just to argue.

In your first post you write I can't hit a 4.5 stroke indicating that you believe "4.5 strokes" exist.

Then you argue that there's no such thing as 4.5 strokes.

Now you're arguing strokes don't matter, it's only consistency.

I know forums like this are populated with experts and that's why I seek information here. Unfortunately there's a difference between meaningful information and "I'm superior to you ******* contests" that lead an expert to argue with himself.

Calm down and try again. I'm certain you have something valuable to contribute but you need to contribute instead of beating your chest while arguing yourself in circles.

BobFL...thanks for the advice! Based on your remote viewing of last night's action how would you describe things? My comments are strictly based on what a very friendly experienced player said during an extended discussion after we played together for ~2 hours. He provided lots of very helpful advice I'm eager to implement and I trust him given his years of experience and obvious skill and accomplishments. However, his perspective was limited to being on the other side of the net from me. That could explain why his comments differ from yours. Based on what you saw what's your analysis?

TimothyO · Oct 7, 2011

TennisCJC said:
At 4.0 level, you will see players who can consistently hit a variety of spin and pace. Players with fairly consistent topspin forehands that have good pace are common. A number of the players will have good backhands hit with topspin and/or underspin too. In general, the backhands will not be as strong and not as consistent as the forehand but there will be a few exceptions with guys that have better backhands. You will also see guys who can hit 1st serves with pace, and slice and kick serves with pretty good movement.

At least that's my experience of USTA 4.0 level. There are quite a few ex-college players and a few older teaching pros say at the top of the 4.0 level and these guys generally are pretty solid with all the strokes but maybe have a weakness such as movement for the older guys or a weaker backhand.

If you make the city or state playoffs at 4.0, it will be a pretty good level of tennis.

4.5 level will generally have all the 4.0 attributes but maybe add one shot that is really strong or bump overall pace, consistency and variety up by 10%. Movement also is much better at 4.5 level.

I'm finding the interaction between these types of players fascinating which led me to post this thread.

I don't play 3.5/4.0/4.5 but I do get to hit with them at our club. I have no delusions about my ability. I know I can hit a clean shot and do so with proper form, but only under controlled or "no brainer" conditions. I'm happy at 3.0, would like to make 3.5 one day, but as I noted in another thread I don't have the time or physical condition to go any higher than that.

I've seen ALTA A level guys hit consistently with decent form but often devolve into patty cake baseline bashing. It's as if both players are playing defense only as their net partners wait for someone to miss.

And then I see guys hit with great spin variety and zero pace.

I wonder too how much college experience plays a part. Time after time I encounter players who played in college, took years off for careers, and then return in their 30s or 40s (it seems less likely to pick it up again in one's 50s for some reason). These guys have amazing stroke variety but seem to ignore pace in favor of high percentage spinny shots to the middle. While some of the guys who pick up the game later in life seem to feel safe bashing from the baseline but lack stroke variety. The fellow I played last night said that when he returned to the game his constantly double faulted in his first match and just couldn't connect. I asked him if he was going easy on me and he said no, he just learned that trying to pummel everything like he did in college would lead to errors so he now settles for spin variety over pace.

Power Player · Oct 7, 2011

I never said anything of the sort. Not even sure how you can misread that poorly. Also not sure why you are telling me to "calm down" but that is also silly.

The only chest beating here is you, and I'm just trying to help you out. The main key is understanding that it is all about consistency and not "the perfect shot" you hit when somebody gives you a soft ball that bounces in your strike zone.

Anyway there are tons of guys in tennis who hear what they want to hear, so if you think that is what I said, then run with it. It is not what I meant at all. Most people who read this thread will understand what I am saying, so if you don't that is fine.

TimothyO · Oct 7, 2011

Chest beating? I explained carefully that I can't consistently hit a clean shot under pressure. Eerr, that's the opposite of chest beating. I also carefully noted that I lack the experience to properly prepare for a shot when facing great shot variety. Give me a floater and I'm happy, otherwise I stink. It's just reality and I'm eager to improve.

As for what your wrote, well, there it is.

"Hang on, you have been playing for 1 year and your strokes are easily 4.5+? Sorry, but no."

"4.5 tennis is not about how nice your strokes are. It is about how consistent and well placed they are. That is why anyone who says "some" of them are 4.5 is just petting your head.

"there are tons of different (ugly, pretty, whatever) strokes in 4.5 level tennis, and you just haven't seen them. The main link is they are consistent and they work."

And more proof you're arguing just to argue, you're now presenting the point I made in my OP as if it's some revelation:

"The main key is understanding that it is all about consistency and not "the perfect shot" you hit when somebody gives you a soft ball that bounces in your strike zone."

Please move along.

Power Player · Oct 7, 2011

I don't think you really understand what I said and have decided to take it personally like this is a 1 on 1 battle or something. That's fine, but everything you quoted me saying is advice and not argumentative. Sorry you took it so personal.

r2473 · Oct 7, 2011

If you keep practicing for the next 5 years and then play this guy again.......he'll probablly still bagel you.

Why? He'll be playing tennis. You'll still be hitting balls.

Fuji · Oct 7, 2011

Not going to lie, I've been bumped to 4.5 this year, and I don't have the worlds prettiest strokes, (Although I try REALLY, REALLY hard to!

), and it's all about efficiency! I know I'll never compete at Futures or Satellites where strokes are basically of the highest level of competence.

It's not about looks, it's about how you use them! Funny how that saying applies to a few things in life.... :lol:

-Fuji

Bhagi Katbamna · Oct 7, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q5GjnoN6BU&feature=related

The OP is on the far side of the court.

Mick · Oct 7, 2011

Fuji said:
Not going to lie, I've been bumped to 4.5 this year, and I don't have the worlds prettiest strokes, (Although I try REALLY, REALLY hard to! ), and it's all about efficiency! I know I'll never compete at Futures or Satellites where strokes are basically of the highest level of competence.

It's not about looks, it's about how you use them! Funny how that saying applies to a few things in life.... :lol:

-Fuji

mine are down right ugly (i play like john mcenroe trying to imitate chris evert) but for some weird reasons, most of my hitting partners who have much better looking strokes cannot handle them

Fuji · Oct 7, 2011

Mick said:
mine are down right ugly (i play like john mcenroe trying to imitate chris evert) but for some weird reasons, most of my hitting partners who have much better looking strokes cannot handle them

LOL it is so funny how that works! I have a buddy who hits GORGEOUS strokes, honestly so great to watch. Smooth, flowing, etc. Get him in a match? Turns out he can't hit those pretty strokes off non-fed shots! He's still a pretty good player, but it's just odd how he can't translate "practice" strokes into game strokes.

-Fuji

Mick · Oct 7, 2011

i know what you mean

and on the other hand, one time i came to the courts to play doubles with some strangers. my partner warned me to be careful of this one guy: he looked like he couldn't play but he could play very well. sure enough, that guy could play very well. his strokes looked like that of a beginner but they would land in the most difficult positions, and he could put the ball away too!

vitas77remembered · Oct 10, 2011

Paceless Spin Pushers have been around since tennis started. Look up Laender Paes, Brad Gilbert, etc. guys hated playing those guys yet they won because they were tough minded and knew what others did not like to hit. Guys with the most beautiful strokes do not always win. But hit enough of these pushers and someone figures out how to attack and they get rolled 6-0.

Frank Silbermann · Oct 10, 2011

TennisCJC said:
At 4.0 level, you will see players who can consistently hit a variety of spin and pace. Players with fairly consistent topspin forehands that have good pace are common. A number of the players will have good backhands hit with topspin and/or underspin too. In general, the backhands will not be as strong and not as consistent as the forehand but there will be a few exceptions with guys that have better backhands. You will also see guys who can hit 1st serves with pace, and slice and kick serves with pretty good movement.

At least that's my experience of USTA 4.0 level. There are quite a few ex-college players and a few older teaching pros say at the top of the 4.0 level and these guys generally are pretty solid with all the strokes but maybe have a weakness such as movement for the older guys or a weaker backhand.

If you make the city or state playoffs at 4.0, it will be a pretty good level of tennis.

4.5 level will generally have all the 4.0 attributes but maybe add one shot that is really strong or bump overall pace, consistency and variety up by 10%. Movement also is much better at 4.5 level.

At least that's true this year. Thirty years from now you might have to play twice as well to compete at those levels. At least, that's what happened to NTRP leagues over the past thirty years. Back then, someone who had played college tennis or who had once had a state or regional ranking was considered a 6.0.

Timbo's hopeless slice · Oct 10, 2011

TimothyO said:
I've seen ALTA A level guys hit consistently with decent form but often devolve into patty cake baseline bashing. It's as if both players are playing defense only as their net partners wait for someone to miss.

Ok, I don't really want to wade too far into this, but I have a couple of observations and a question.

Question first, WTF does the bolded phrase above even mean?? Is it not a bit of a contradiction in terms?

Also, baseline rallies in doubles? Really? Hmmm. And sorry Tim, but your inexperience is showing. By all means post your own observations and experiences, but don't get into arguments with high level players who have been on the court for 20 years or try to tell them they haven't seen enough tennis played. This happened in the Oscar at the Fair thread, too.

The more you say, the deeper the hole you dig.

TimothyO · Oct 10, 2011

Nah, anyone who evaluates strokes based on internet forum comments shows his lack common sense regardless of tennis experience. I reported what one fellow said and a bunch of insecure guys sitting at home in their bathrobes began bloviating, not on the topic, but on something which they never saw. Some are so obsessed with demonstrating their Vast Body of Knowledge they have been arguing with themselves and utterly confused as to what they think they know.

Years of tennis experience is not the same thing as wisdom or common sense.

Just look at this thread and numerous threads rating strokes via video. Nearly everyone here who has jumped on the "ugly strokes mean nothing" have also posted in threads with videos "those are NoT 5.0" strokes as if there is such a thing (do a search, I did and the results were hilarious!)

So these people are not only ignoring the topic they're completely confused as to what they think.

They've been digging a deep hole for years.

SoBad · Oct 10, 2011

vitas77remembered said:
Paceless Spin Pushers have been around since tennis started. Look up Laender Paes, Brad Gilbert, etc. guys hated playing those guys yet they won because they were tough minded and knew what others did not like to hit. Guys with the most beautiful strokes do not always win. But hit enough of these pushers and someone figures out how to attack and they get rolled 6-0.

Great insight, Leander Paes is probably the biggest pusher of all time in the history of tennis. The guy just parks 10ft behind the baseline for hours moonballing everything until you make an error. You just have to dropshot him all the time when you play him, that way you can expose his lack of net skills.

TimothyO · Oct 10, 2011

vitas77remembered said:
Paceless Spin Pushers have been around since tennis started. Look up Laender Paes, Brad Gilbert, etc. guys hated playing those guys yet they won because they were tough minded and knew what others did not like to hit. Guys with the most beautiful strokes do not always win. But hit enough of these pushers and someone figures out how to attack and they get rolled 6-0.

Yup, that's my challenge as a tennis noob. I've spent loads of practice hitting floaters with confidence and now really enjoy it!

But low pace, spinny shots with lots of variety is tough. "Reading" an opponent's stroke is the tough part.

JackB1 · Oct 10, 2011

Power Player said:
Hang on, you have been playing for 1 year and your strokes are easily 4.5+?

Sorry, but no.

That guy was just being nice and trying to tell you to hit the ball more consistently.

^^^^
this

You keep calling yourself a "noob" and now you are blasting back low spinny shots with pace? And also you now suddenly have 4.5 strokes? Something doesn't add up.

Call me when you can beat 4.0's in league play. I hit with 4.0s and 4.5s all the time, but when they want to win, they can bagel any 3.5 all day long.

TimothyO · Oct 10, 2011

JackB1 said:
^^^^
this

You keep calling yourself a "noob" and now you are blasting back low spinny shots with pace? And now you have 4.5 strokes? Something doesn't add up.

No, Jack, that's not what I wrote. Do read the post again. I can blast back a low spinny shot...I had a grand total of one that night on serve return. I also had a few excellent cross court winners but far too few to matter in the result.

That's not the same thing as being a 4.5 player.

Jesus Christ, people are dense...or just looking to play Self Appointed Internet Expert Judge with a need to mark their territory.

Just chill out and read the freakin' thread.

TimothyO · Oct 10, 2011

JackB1 said:
^^^^

Call me when you can beat 4.0's in league play. I hit with 4.0s and 4.5s all the time, but when they want to win, they can bagel any 3.5 all day long.

Dense, just super dense.

OTMPut · Oct 10, 2011

SoBad said:
Great insight, Leander Paes is probably the biggest pusher of all time in the history of tennis. The guy just parks 10ft behind the baseline for hours moonballing everything until you make an error. You just have to dropshot him all the time when you play him, that way you can expose his lack of net skills.

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