ATXtennisaddict
Hall of Fame
I want to use VS on the mains and ALU Power Rough on the crosses on my Prince Triple Threat Warrior. How much lower should I string my crosses again? Or can I string it at the same tension as mains.
VS Gut mains and poly crosses
- Thread starter parasailing
- Start date
mixedmedia
Professional
The standard is 2 to 5 pounds lower, but I'd do at least 3 pounds lower.
The Big Kahuna
Hall of Fame
PLAYTEST UPDATE:
After nearly a month of play - about 30+ hours of play - the following hybrid test is still playing consistently well with solid comfort, feel, control, and spin. Very minor notching. Great touch and nice power.
• Strings: KLIP Legend Tour 17g mains @ 52 / MSV Co.-Focus 17L (1.18) crosses @ 48
Poly Stringforum ranking: 94% satisfaction / PPR 3.87 (ranked 8th overall)
Power: A-
Control: (+ ranked) A-
Feel: A
Comfort: (+ ranked) A
Spin: A+
Tension Stability:
OVERALL: A
Comments: Great ball pocketing and lively response. Very "Liquid" or "Airy" sensation when hitting ("Spaghetti Strings"?). Great bite on the ball - terrific spin potential. Slightly muted power (balls stayed in play). Larger sweet spot. Tons of dwell time.
After 6 hours of play with the MSV Co-Focus 18g hybrid @ 48 (with KLIP Legend Tour 17g mains @ 52) in my Head Youtek Prestige Pro I am ready to declare this playtest to an end. Every time I put down this racquet to try one with another poly (Weiss Silverstring or Kirshbaum Pro Line II) while they both feel very good, I can wait to get back to the MSV. The feel and ball pocketing is SO much better. I have never felt strings with so much comfort, spin, control, and feel. The power is dialed down just a tad from the other two strings, but more balls go IN the court as a result. My groundstrokes and serves are much more consistent than they have been with anything else to date and it feels like the racquet is simply an part of my arm - it is almost as if I am "throwing the ball" back. The sweet spot feels huge and the picketing is insane! I am totally addicted. It is really like a whole new game for me. Fantastic!
SMASHER, how is you test with Pacific as the mains and C0-Focus 18 ply in the crosses going?
After nearly a month of play - about 30+ hours of play - the following hybrid test is still playing consistently well with solid comfort, feel, control, and spin. Very minor notching. Great touch and nice power.
• Strings: KLIP Legend Tour 17g mains @ 52 / MSV Co.-Focus 17L (1.18) crosses @ 48
Poly Stringforum ranking: 94% satisfaction / PPR 3.87 (ranked 8th overall)
Power: A-
Control: (+ ranked) A-
Feel: A
Comfort: (+ ranked) A
Spin: A+
Tension Stability:
OVERALL: A
Comments: Great ball pocketing and lively response. Very "Liquid" or "Airy" sensation when hitting ("Spaghetti Strings"?). Great bite on the ball - terrific spin potential. Slightly muted power (balls stayed in play). Larger sweet spot. Tons of dwell time.
After 6 hours of play with the MSV Co-Focus 18g hybrid @ 48 (with KLIP Legend Tour 17g mains @ 52) in my Head Youtek Prestige Pro I am ready to declare this playtest to an end. Every time I put down this racquet to try one with another poly (Weiss Silverstring or Kirshbaum Pro Line II) while they both feel very good, I can wait to get back to the MSV. The feel and ball pocketing is SO much better. I have never felt strings with so much comfort, spin, control, and feel. The power is dialed down just a tad from the other two strings, but more balls go IN the court as a result. My groundstrokes and serves are much more consistent than they have been with anything else to date and it feels like the racquet is simply an part of my arm - it is almost as if I am "throwing the ball" back. The sweet spot feels huge and the picketing is insane! I am totally addicted. It is really like a whole new game for me. Fantastic!
SMASHER, how is you test with Pacific as the mains and C0-Focus 18 ply in the crosses going?
parasailing
Legend
Glad Cofocus worked for you but I didn't have the same experience. It did not feel as solid as SPPP but it did have better tension maintenance.
I just strung up a new set of SPPP and it feels great. I guess I can live with 10 hours of good play given SPPP is a cheap string if purchased in a reel.
I just strung up a new set of SPPP and it feels great. I guess I can live with 10 hours of good play given SPPP is a cheap string if purchased in a reel.
parasailing
Legend
I tried SPPP in the crosses at both 54lb and 55lbs and thinking it's a bit to high and will go back to 52lbs.
You gain control but lose some of the pop so I guess 52 or 53lbs is better for me with VS Team mains.
I have never tried Pacific Classic but is that as stiff as Pacific Tough Gut which I don't really like the feel of.
You gain control but lose some of the pop so I guess 52 or 53lbs is better for me with VS Team mains.
I have never tried Pacific Classic but is that as stiff as Pacific Tough Gut which I don't really like the feel of.
Marcus
Semi-Pro
Pacific Poly Force with Pacific Space Power for crosses is a fantastic combo especially in a mid..... string @ 58 / 62
the best compromise for comfort, spin, ball bite and crispness and longevity,
2o hours on a KPS 88 and still going strong..... just edges the Silverstring / VS gut on the basis of it lasting so well, I got around 12 hours out of the SS/VS combo before the mains broke
Mark
The Big Kahuna
Hall of Fame
Just checked my tension now after 35 hours of play and I have lost just 15% of the RA - which is excellent compared to the old poly/multi hybrids I had been using. Fraying on the KLIP Legend Tour 17 gut in minimal. Play seems very close to when it was new. The MSV Co-Focus 18 in the reel comes to about $3.00 a racquet.
Are you cutting out your SPPP every ten hours and keeping the gut mains? I was advised against this for a myriad of reasons - mostly the chance of warping the frame. If not, sounds like an expensive proposition as opposed to the MSV.
The Big Kahuna
Hall of Fame
Using Gut as a cross string is simply a waste of money. It also does not last as long. Did you see the article I posted on the subject earlier from TennisPlayer.net? It is very informative.
Smasher08
Legend
I wouldn't recommend it if only because tour bite pretty much has some very sharp edges that risk sawing through your gut mains pretty fast.
If you're using 15L gut or thicker it might last a while, otherwise you should stick to a very smooth copoly for your crosses.
Good luck!
How about re-posting the article or the link so we don't have to search through 13 pages for it?
Thanks.
D
Deleted member 19728
Guest
A little cut and paste action from the earlier thread:
You might all find this interesting, as well. From an article by Joshua Speckman in Tennis Player Magazine this month:
"Federer is one of the few pros today that played with full natural gut for a significant part of his career. He was pretty good with it too, beating Sampras at Wimbledon in 2001 with a full bed of gut. So why did he add copoly strings to the mix?"
"Spin control," answers Ferguson. "Spin is part of control, and he gains both. Definitely more spin, and with that comes control. And with that control he can string way down low. He strings at 21.5 or 22 kilos (47 or 48.5 pounds)," he adds."
"Federer's setup actually bears some resemblance to spaghetti strings, as that invention also used natural gut in the mains and a synthetic in the crosses. Many players find the combination of extremely elastic gut mains with stiff, hard and slick copoly crosses to be as, or more, spin-friendly than a full bed of copoly, while also being more comfortable, powerful and giving better feel for the ball."
"In string-on-string friction tests, tennis equipment researcher Crawford Lindsey found that gut mains slide with less friction along copoly crosses than any other string or string combination. And he found that - unlike other strings, where notching ramps up friction and disables the snapback mechanism – inter-string friction actually gets lower as the notches get deeper."
"Why? Natural oils seep out of the gut at the notches and lubricate the string intersections. This suggests that a gut/poly hybrid might retain its spin-generating potential for longer than any other string or combination. Well, at least until the gut breaks."
"Surprisingly, the opposite configuration – poly mains/gut crosses – slides much less easily. Lindsey says the two materials are sticky in reverse perhaps because the surface of the gut crosses quickly abrades, pulling up microscopic fibers that get hung up on the copoly mains as they try to slide."
__________________
You might all find this interesting, as well. From an article by Joshua Speckman in Tennis Player Magazine this month:
"Federer is one of the few pros today that played with full natural gut for a significant part of his career. He was pretty good with it too, beating Sampras at Wimbledon in 2001 with a full bed of gut. So why did he add copoly strings to the mix?"
"Spin control," answers Ferguson. "Spin is part of control, and he gains both. Definitely more spin, and with that comes control. And with that control he can string way down low. He strings at 21.5 or 22 kilos (47 or 48.5 pounds)," he adds."
"Federer's setup actually bears some resemblance to spaghetti strings, as that invention also used natural gut in the mains and a synthetic in the crosses. Many players find the combination of extremely elastic gut mains with stiff, hard and slick copoly crosses to be as, or more, spin-friendly than a full bed of copoly, while also being more comfortable, powerful and giving better feel for the ball."
"In string-on-string friction tests, tennis equipment researcher Crawford Lindsey found that gut mains slide with less friction along copoly crosses than any other string or string combination. And he found that - unlike other strings, where notching ramps up friction and disables the snapback mechanism – inter-string friction actually gets lower as the notches get deeper."
"Why? Natural oils seep out of the gut at the notches and lubricate the string intersections. This suggests that a gut/poly hybrid might retain its spin-generating potential for longer than any other string or combination. Well, at least until the gut breaks."
"Surprisingly, the opposite configuration – poly mains/gut crosses – slides much less easily. Lindsey says the two materials are sticky in reverse perhaps because the surface of the gut crosses quickly abrades, pulling up microscopic fibers that get hung up on the copoly mains as they try to slide."
__________________
D
Deleted member 19728
Guest
After reading that article I now really want to give that set of gut I ordered a go with synthetics you sent me. I think that conquest combo will be awesome. I might string up another POG with a gut poly hyrbid too. From my experience with PHT main and a gut cross hybrid, I am sort of inclined to beleive it. When I used to have my tour 90s strung that way (pht mains gut crosses) I would notch the pht with the gut and then the gut would frey till it popped. I guess the process will happen in reverse, but I am hoping the resistance of the gut to notching might make it last longer. I guess like anything I have to give it a go to find out.
The Big Kahuna
Hall of Fame
By popular demand (the unedited version - part 1):
Strings and Spin: Applying What We Know About Copoly
by Joshua Speckman
In the first article in this series on strings and spin, we learned that slippery strings, like copoly, generate extra spin because the main strings slide, stretch and snapback, applying an extra spin-boosting torque on the ball.
In the second article, we saw how copoly strings are actually similar to their ancestor from the 1970s, spaghetti strings. Both technologies use the same sliding and snapback mechanism to give players more spin.
But what does this mean for you? In this third article, let's go over some of the ways copoly strings are used in pro tennis, see what the applications are at other levels, then suggest a few new ground rules for equipment selection and care.
It's important to emphasize at the start that the most important factors for spin generation remain racket head speed and swing angle. To generate more spin, the most important thing to address is technique.
On some balls, pro players tilt the racket head forward a few degrees.
"If you want more spin the first thing you need to do is hit the ball harder," says tennis physicist Rod Cross. "The second thing is to hit at a steeper angle.
"The third thing is to tilt the racket head forward a little bit, and that's something that I don't think a lot of coaches know about, that if you tilt the racket you'll get more spin.
"Now the next thing you do is eat and sleep better and go to the gym more so you can hit harder. And then the fifth thing you do is change from nylon to polyester."
Despite the average player's desire for a magic bullet, copoly simply won't substitute for the other factors that go into generating more spin. But with nearly every ATP pro now using copoly strings, more and more recreational players who want to take part in the game's evolution are jumping on the copoly bandwagon.
Many professional stringers, however, steer their amateur clients clear of copoly strings because they are so stiff. This stiffness is one of the reasons why they snapback and produce spin so well, but it also makes them hard on the arm.
The copoly recipe: string loose, swing hard, and impart more spin.
One safer option with copoly (especially for young juniors who insist on using it) is to string at much lower tensions than most players have ever considered. Manufacturers routinely advise tensioning copoly 10% lower than nylon (multifilament or syngut) strings. But ATP pros often go lower than that.
"For my clientele, which is almost exclusively pro players, they can string it loose, swing hard, and impart more spin without losing control," says Nate Ferguson, the personal stringer of Roger Federer, Novak Djokovic and Andy Murray. "They string in the 40s and low 50s; really loose tension, which was unheard of ten years ago."
But in the United States, in particular, there seems to be a fondness for "crisp" stringbeds and high tensions. Perhaps this has something to do with Pete Sampras, who famously had Ferguson string his 85 square inch rackets with natural gut at 75 pounds.
The drum-tight string bed helped Pete with control, but most players don't realize that natural gut is unique among strings in that its stiffness does not increase appreciably at higher tensions. Natural gut at 75 pounds is only slightly stiffer than natural gut strung at 50 pounds.
But nylon and copoly don't share this characteristic – the tighter they are strung the stiffer they become - so dropping tension can dramatically improve comfort with these materials. An arm-killing copoly at 60 pounds will feel rather soft at 40 pounds.
In fact, a copoly like Luxilon Alu Power at 35 pounds is about as stiff, and transfers as much shock, as nylon strung at 55. But even at those tensions both materials are still stiffer than Pete's gut at 75 pounds.
Surprisingly, anecdotal reports from players suggest that copoly strung at 30, 20, even 10 pounds of tension, can, depending on the player, result in more spin, power and feel than at higher tensions, with surprisingly little loss of control.
Nate Ferguson notes that Italian pro Fillipo Volandri strings his racket with copoly strings at 26 pounds, and sometimes drops to around 19 when playing on clay. Volandri beat Federer in Hamburg several years ago playing at these super-low tensions.
"Poly has evolved," Ferguson says, "and now these guys who love the spin…they can lower the tension because the ball's not going to fly off. You're getting that cupping feeling, you're getting the feeling of more control, even though you're going looser."
The Italian player Fillipo Volandri strings with poly at 19 pounds on clay.
Another way to take advantage of the copoly spin boost, but with more comfort, feel and power is to hybrid with nylon or natural gut. Roger Federer has been using natural gut mains and Luxilon Alu Power Rough crosses since prior to hiring Nate Ferguson in 2004.
Federer is one of the few pros today that played with full natural gut for a significant part of his career. He was pretty good with it too, beating Sampras at Wimbledon in 2001 with a full bed of gut. So why did he add copoly strings to the mix?
"Spin control," answers Ferguson. "Spin is part of control, and he gains both. Definitely more spin, and with that comes control. And with that control he can string way down low. He strings at 21.5 or 22 kilos (47 or 48.5 pounds)," he adds.
Federer's setup actually bears some resemblance to spaghetti strings, as that invention also used natural gut in the mains and a synthetic in the crosses. Many players find the combination of extremely elastic gut mains with stiff, hard and slick copoly crosses to be as, or more, spin-friendly than a full bed of copoly, while also being more comfortable, powerful and giving better feel for the ball.
In string-on-string friction tests, tennis equipment researcher Crawford Lindsey found that gut mains slide with less friction along copoly crosses than any other string or string combination. And he found that - unlike other strings, where notching ramps up friction and disables the snapback mechanism – inter-string friction actually gets lower as the notches get deeper.
Why? Lindsey and Cross speculate that natural oils seep out of the gut at the notches and lubricate the string intersections. This suggests that a gut/poly hybrid might retain its spin-generating potential for longer than any other string or combination. Well, at least until the gut breaks.
Surprisingly, the opposite configuration – poly mains/gut crosses – slides much less easily. Lindsey says the two materials are sticky in reverse perhaps because the surface of the gut crosses quickly abrades, pulling up microscopic fibers that get hung up on the copoly mains as they try to slide.
The reason poly strings initially became popular with professional players was because of their inherent durability. Although modern copolymer strings are softer than "1st generation" polyester strings, they are still stiffer and harder than nylon or gut, and typically take longer to notch and break.
But, on the other hand, one well-known drawback of copoly strings is that they lose much more tension than gut and nylon. Consequently, advanced players often cut them out when they start losing control, saying they've "gone dead."
This is often assumed to be due to loss of resiliency. But lab tests show that strings don't really lose elasticity as they lose tension, which means that they should actually become more lively with tension loss.
The loss of depth control experienced with a well-played copoly could also be attributed to string wear resulting in impairment of the snapback mechanism. Werner Fischer, the inventor of spaghetti strings, points out that, although copoly is harder than nylon or gut, the surface of the strings can still becomes worn, roughened and notched over time, particularly if playing on clay.
Werner Fischer, the inventor of spaghetti strings, notes copoly can still becomes worn, roughened and notched over time. "Once a polyester string reaches a certain amount of playing time, the main strings lose their gliding ability, so that the mechanism does not work as well, or stops working completely," Fischer explains. "The [spin-boosting] effect works only as long as the strings are relatively new." Having lost the downward diving spin of their copoly strings when new, players may suddenly find the ball flying long.
For pros, this isn't a problem – they generally only play with new strings for several games or a set anyway - but for amateur players the premature loss of the snapback mechanism cancels out copoly's durability advantage.
As a general rule then, it would make sense for players to replace their copoly strings as soon they get stuck out of place, or begin to "move" in the parlance of players.
"The moment it goes out of line you've lost control. If the strings get stuck out wide you lose control and you lose spin as well," adds Barry Phillips-Moore, a former pro player and coach who played with spaghetti strings in the 70s and has been trying to recreate their effect ever since.
The Big Kahuna
Hall of Fame
PART 2:
So can anything be done to keep the main strings sliding and snapping back longer?
Well, on clay courts, it might make sense to rotate rackets more frequently than normal during a match to minimize accelerated friction-wear from the dirt, and then wipe accumulated clay off the strings before playing again.
Rotating rackets more frequently may be important for copoly players.
Fischer notes that plastics like copoly will also melt and notch due to heat from friction. So in practice sessions, where a player might hit many more balls in an hour than in an entire match, it might not be a crazy idea to again rotate rackets frequently to keep the strings from over-heating.
Although it is not widely available outside of Japan, the silicone-based lubricant called Mira-fit may also prolong or revive the snapback ability of worn and notched strings. In a recent experiment, Crawford Lindsey showed that the commonly available lubricant WD-40 both revives the spin potential of notched strings and improves the spin generated by new strings as well. And it should also reduce premature wear by reducing friction and heat. These lubricants are currently legal for tournament play.
Another factor to consider is thickness, or gauge. Traditionally, thin, high-gauge strings have been favored for feel and spin. But the old explanation - that the strings allowed the ball to bite deeper into the pattern, increasing friction - doesn't square with what science is telling us about strings and spin.
But once the link was made between slippery copoly and spaghetti strings, researchers began wondering how copoly strings could be freed to move with less friction and more freedom within the constraints of a woven stringbed. "Thick strings are maybe less slippery, because thick strings, when you weave them there's a bigger angle to the weave," says Cross.
"But if they were only one micron thick there would be hardly any distortion of the strings and they would slide sideways and come straight back." At the other extreme, he says, "if they were a half-inch thick they would be really locked in together."
At present there is, however, no objective evidence that thinner strings do give more spin. Players routinely report that they do, but determining whether they are correct will have to wait for more research.
Finally, what about the great variety of shaped or textured copolys on the market – all advertised as spin strings? Well, according to tennis scientists, because the stringbed is woven, with natural peaks and valleys, all strings have sufficient friction with the ball at most impact angles to generate spin. So, theoretically, any additional friction provided by rough or pentagonal strings shouldn't make any difference.
But subjective reports consistently contradict this. At one online string playtest database, 17 of the top 20 strings rated by players for spin were shaped or textured copolys. Remember, scientists originally dismissed the existence of the poly-spin effect, despite how obvious it was to the players. So perhaps it is a mistake to discount their perceptions again.
So what's going on here? Science is always a work in progress, and this is one area where more research needs to be done.
But so far, there are two possible explanations. First, Crawford Lindsey says that increased friction between the textured strings and the ball may play a role during the snapback phase.
We know that the ball must grip the main strings in order to slide and stretch them sideways. But once the main strings reverse direction and start snapping back, they have to re-grip the ball in order to apply spin-enhancing torque. If the strings can re-grip the ball quicker they can apply spin-enhancing torque for a slightly longer period of time. So it might be during the snapback phase that textured and shaped strings have an advantage.
However, Lindsey's recent experiments showed that lubricating strings increased the spin potential, across the range of string materials. A lubricant will reduce friction between strings, but also between the ball and the strings. So whatever role string-ball friction may have in spin generation, it is almost certainly less important than having the intersections between strings as slippery as possible.
Still, there is one scenario where a player would want the highest possible string-on-ball friction. On almost all shots, theory and lab tests agree that slippery strings, and rough or textured strings, both have plenty of friction to spin the ball.
But on extremely steep swings with the racquet moving very fast – a topspin lob or the heaviest Nadal forehands being good examples - the ball can actually slip off the strings instead of biting them. In this case, a really rough string produces more spin than a really slippery one.
In any case, it's important to note that greater friction generally only makes a difference in the interaction between the ball and the main strings. This is because it is the main strings that are gripping the ball, sliding and snapping back. The role of cross strings in the snapback mechanism is to act as stiff and slippery rails for the mains to glide and slide on.
So one way to possibly have your cake and eat it too is to use a smooth and slippery cross string paired with a slippery but textured main string, something that string manufacturers have realized. Several manufacturers now offer hybrid packages containing two half-sets: a textured copoly for the mains and a smooth copoly for the crosses.
But regardless of the potential of copoly strings, the big question is still: Is this stuff for everyone? For players who hit flat, don't break strings, have tender elbows, or feel they need more pop, natural gut remains the gold standard.
And according to Cross and Lindsey's tests, gut is pretty good at generating spin too: offering about 15% more than nylon. Gut remains popular on the WTA tour, where power and spin may be more valuable than spin alone. The Williams' sisters, along with Justine Henin (up until her 2nd retirement), continue to use gut, the string favored by pros for over a hundred years.
Syngut and multifilament strings, both made of nylon, don't spin the ball as well as copoly or gut. They are softer and more arm-friendly than copoly, but less powerful than natural gut. Many of them are also pretty cheap, and perfectly adequate for most recreational players. The biggest problem with them is that they must be straightened constantly.
And if spin isn't a huge feature of your game, does poly have any use? Quite possibly. For a player with conservative grips and/or traditional mechanics, an experiment with copoly might be worth a try, as the strings will give you more spin with the same swing and effort.
Nate Ferguson says that Pete Sampras, with his relatively flat, classical strokes, switched to Babolat RPM Blast last year and is enjoying the greater "spin control" on the senior tour.
One final thing to note is that lab results will not always be consistent with our on-court perceptions. Because each different string setup will launch the ball at a slightly different angle, and with slightly more or less speed than others, its very difficult to subjectively evaluate how much spin we're getting out in the real world.
Applying lubricant to strings is an extreme example of this. We know from lab tests that lubricant will increase spin considerably. But it will also raise the launch angle quite a bit as well. Consequently, out on the court we may find the ball going long, even with all the extra topspin we're getting. To compensate, we could flatten our swing slightly to lower the launch angle, but this will reduce the spin. Alternatively, we could close the racquet face slightly at impact. This will also lower the launch angle, but increase the spin.
We can adjust to a new string setup in different ways, but unless we know exactly which adjustments we're making it's very difficult to distinguish what we're doing from what the strings are doing.
Lab research is invaluable because it reveals what is really happening. But it's also limited because the player isn't in the lab. On-court results will always be the most important dataset in tennis.
Scientific research into strings has really raised our understanding of why some strings generate more spin than others. But as always, more knowledge leads to more questions. Crawford Lindsey and Rod Cross soon plan to answer some of them by comparing the spin potential of many more strings and combinations in direct head-to-head tests.
But for the individual player, at this point there are no simple prescriptions. Level, playing style, injury—not to mention the patience and cost involved in conducting your own experiments to chose the right string or string combo—all need to be considered when choosing which strings are right for you.
But one fact is indisputable. The copoly effect is real. And the practical applications of the slippery string theory will continue to be refined and evolve as researchers, manufacturers—and players--experiment with more and more variations.
Want to Investigate More About Strings Yourself?
Crawford Lindsey, aka "The Professor", has published the most through, useful and up-to-date collection of scientific papers on strings and spin available. For those who want to learn more about the subject, or about other aspects of tennis equipment, there's no better resource.
C. Lindsey's Tennis Warehouse University
Lindsey's groundbreaking experiments on strings and spin:
"What Strings Generate the Most Spin?"
"Spin and String Pattern"
"String Friction Database"
"Spin and String Stiffness"
"String Lubrication & Movement in Spin"
So can anything be done to keep the main strings sliding and snapping back longer?
Well, on clay courts, it might make sense to rotate rackets more frequently than normal during a match to minimize accelerated friction-wear from the dirt, and then wipe accumulated clay off the strings before playing again.
Rotating rackets more frequently may be important for copoly players.
Fischer notes that plastics like copoly will also melt and notch due to heat from friction. So in practice sessions, where a player might hit many more balls in an hour than in an entire match, it might not be a crazy idea to again rotate rackets frequently to keep the strings from over-heating.
Although it is not widely available outside of Japan, the silicone-based lubricant called Mira-fit may also prolong or revive the snapback ability of worn and notched strings. In a recent experiment, Crawford Lindsey showed that the commonly available lubricant WD-40 both revives the spin potential of notched strings and improves the spin generated by new strings as well. And it should also reduce premature wear by reducing friction and heat. These lubricants are currently legal for tournament play.
Another factor to consider is thickness, or gauge. Traditionally, thin, high-gauge strings have been favored for feel and spin. But the old explanation - that the strings allowed the ball to bite deeper into the pattern, increasing friction - doesn't square with what science is telling us about strings and spin.
But once the link was made between slippery copoly and spaghetti strings, researchers began wondering how copoly strings could be freed to move with less friction and more freedom within the constraints of a woven stringbed. "Thick strings are maybe less slippery, because thick strings, when you weave them there's a bigger angle to the weave," says Cross.
"But if they were only one micron thick there would be hardly any distortion of the strings and they would slide sideways and come straight back." At the other extreme, he says, "if they were a half-inch thick they would be really locked in together."
At present there is, however, no objective evidence that thinner strings do give more spin. Players routinely report that they do, but determining whether they are correct will have to wait for more research.
Finally, what about the great variety of shaped or textured copolys on the market – all advertised as spin strings? Well, according to tennis scientists, because the stringbed is woven, with natural peaks and valleys, all strings have sufficient friction with the ball at most impact angles to generate spin. So, theoretically, any additional friction provided by rough or pentagonal strings shouldn't make any difference.
But subjective reports consistently contradict this. At one online string playtest database, 17 of the top 20 strings rated by players for spin were shaped or textured copolys. Remember, scientists originally dismissed the existence of the poly-spin effect, despite how obvious it was to the players. So perhaps it is a mistake to discount their perceptions again.
So what's going on here? Science is always a work in progress, and this is one area where more research needs to be done.
But so far, there are two possible explanations. First, Crawford Lindsey says that increased friction between the textured strings and the ball may play a role during the snapback phase.
We know that the ball must grip the main strings in order to slide and stretch them sideways. But once the main strings reverse direction and start snapping back, they have to re-grip the ball in order to apply spin-enhancing torque. If the strings can re-grip the ball quicker they can apply spin-enhancing torque for a slightly longer period of time. So it might be during the snapback phase that textured and shaped strings have an advantage.
However, Lindsey's recent experiments showed that lubricating strings increased the spin potential, across the range of string materials. A lubricant will reduce friction between strings, but also between the ball and the strings. So whatever role string-ball friction may have in spin generation, it is almost certainly less important than having the intersections between strings as slippery as possible.
Still, there is one scenario where a player would want the highest possible string-on-ball friction. On almost all shots, theory and lab tests agree that slippery strings, and rough or textured strings, both have plenty of friction to spin the ball.
But on extremely steep swings with the racquet moving very fast – a topspin lob or the heaviest Nadal forehands being good examples - the ball can actually slip off the strings instead of biting them. In this case, a really rough string produces more spin than a really slippery one.
In any case, it's important to note that greater friction generally only makes a difference in the interaction between the ball and the main strings. This is because it is the main strings that are gripping the ball, sliding and snapping back. The role of cross strings in the snapback mechanism is to act as stiff and slippery rails for the mains to glide and slide on.
So one way to possibly have your cake and eat it too is to use a smooth and slippery cross string paired with a slippery but textured main string, something that string manufacturers have realized. Several manufacturers now offer hybrid packages containing two half-sets: a textured copoly for the mains and a smooth copoly for the crosses.
But regardless of the potential of copoly strings, the big question is still: Is this stuff for everyone? For players who hit flat, don't break strings, have tender elbows, or feel they need more pop, natural gut remains the gold standard.
And according to Cross and Lindsey's tests, gut is pretty good at generating spin too: offering about 15% more than nylon. Gut remains popular on the WTA tour, where power and spin may be more valuable than spin alone. The Williams' sisters, along with Justine Henin (up until her 2nd retirement), continue to use gut, the string favored by pros for over a hundred years.
Syngut and multifilament strings, both made of nylon, don't spin the ball as well as copoly or gut. They are softer and more arm-friendly than copoly, but less powerful than natural gut. Many of them are also pretty cheap, and perfectly adequate for most recreational players. The biggest problem with them is that they must be straightened constantly.
And if spin isn't a huge feature of your game, does poly have any use? Quite possibly. For a player with conservative grips and/or traditional mechanics, an experiment with copoly might be worth a try, as the strings will give you more spin with the same swing and effort.
Nate Ferguson says that Pete Sampras, with his relatively flat, classical strokes, switched to Babolat RPM Blast last year and is enjoying the greater "spin control" on the senior tour.
One final thing to note is that lab results will not always be consistent with our on-court perceptions. Because each different string setup will launch the ball at a slightly different angle, and with slightly more or less speed than others, its very difficult to subjectively evaluate how much spin we're getting out in the real world.
Applying lubricant to strings is an extreme example of this. We know from lab tests that lubricant will increase spin considerably. But it will also raise the launch angle quite a bit as well. Consequently, out on the court we may find the ball going long, even with all the extra topspin we're getting. To compensate, we could flatten our swing slightly to lower the launch angle, but this will reduce the spin. Alternatively, we could close the racquet face slightly at impact. This will also lower the launch angle, but increase the spin.
We can adjust to a new string setup in different ways, but unless we know exactly which adjustments we're making it's very difficult to distinguish what we're doing from what the strings are doing.
Lab research is invaluable because it reveals what is really happening. But it's also limited because the player isn't in the lab. On-court results will always be the most important dataset in tennis.
Scientific research into strings has really raised our understanding of why some strings generate more spin than others. But as always, more knowledge leads to more questions. Crawford Lindsey and Rod Cross soon plan to answer some of them by comparing the spin potential of many more strings and combinations in direct head-to-head tests.
But for the individual player, at this point there are no simple prescriptions. Level, playing style, injury—not to mention the patience and cost involved in conducting your own experiments to chose the right string or string combo—all need to be considered when choosing which strings are right for you.
But one fact is indisputable. The copoly effect is real. And the practical applications of the slippery string theory will continue to be refined and evolve as researchers, manufacturers—and players--experiment with more and more variations.
Want to Investigate More About Strings Yourself?
Crawford Lindsey, aka "The Professor", has published the most through, useful and up-to-date collection of scientific papers on strings and spin available. For those who want to learn more about the subject, or about other aspects of tennis equipment, there's no better resource.
C. Lindsey's Tennis Warehouse University
Lindsey's groundbreaking experiments on strings and spin:
"What Strings Generate the Most Spin?"
"Spin and String Pattern"
"String Friction Database"
"Spin and String Stiffness"
"String Lubrication & Movement in Spin"
I'm looking forward to hearing about the results you get with those combos.
Very glad to read elsewhere that you're enjoying full RPM blast so much.
genius24
Semi-Pro
yeah, thanks for posting guys! very interesting read
parasailing
Legend
VS Team mains and SPPP crosses will be my setup as I have now logged substantial time with this setup.
I get about a good 10 hours of play before I have to cut out SPPP due to strings feel pingy and not as solid. But once I restring it, it is back to that solid and comfortable feel while provide good power and control. Ranked in order of preference.
1. VS with SPPP
2. VS with Silverstring
3. VS with Scorpion
4. VS with Black Magic
5. VS with Black 5 Edge
6. VS with Cofocus
I get about a good 10 hours of play before I have to cut out SPPP due to strings feel pingy and not as solid. But once I restring it, it is back to that solid and comfortable feel while provide good power and control. Ranked in order of preference.
1. VS with SPPP
2. VS with Silverstring
3. VS with Scorpion
4. VS with Black Magic
5. VS with Black 5 Edge
6. VS with Cofocus
JT_2eighty
Hall of Fame
Nice info. Just curious, after the 10 hours you note, do you mount your racquet and just replace the crosses, or start fresh completely?
TaihtDuhShaat
Semi-Pro
When I used to replace only the poly crosses and leave the gut mains intact, I would mount the frame at tightly as I could, and use two clamps working from throat to head snipping 1 string at a time to relieve the tension in the reverse order it was applied.
I got tired of having to do this every few days of play, so I started using kevlar mains with 1st generation poly crosses. This stringbed stays playable for 2 months of constant use.
I do want to try gut mains/1st generation poly crosses since that type of poly don't turn to mush after a few hours like the newer co-polys.
I got tired of having to do this every few days of play, so I started using kevlar mains with 1st generation poly crosses. This stringbed stays playable for 2 months of constant use.
I do want to try gut mains/1st generation poly crosses since that type of poly don't turn to mush after a few hours like the newer co-polys.
parasailing
Legend
I just remount the racquet and replace the crosses. Keep in mind if you do this, you got to carefully secure the racquet tight with the clamps. Every time you tension a couple of crosses, the clamps loosen a bit.
parasailing
Legend
I strung up one of my PSTGT with Genesis STS natural gut which is 17 gauge just to see how this compares to VS Team. During pre stretch stage before stringing the racquet, I notice it isn't as elastic as VS Team so I had some concern that it would be as stiff as Pacific Tough Gut.
To my surprise after it was strung with SPPP in the crosses, it actually hits pretty good. It is slightly softer in feel than VS Team BT7 so it is not as crisp and definitely plays better in my opinion than Tough Gut which was just harsh for a gut string.
I only log about an hour hitting with it but it felt comfortable so now it's time to see if this cheaper string lasts as long or provides more value than VS Team.
Some say Genesis STS natural gut and Performaxx are one and the same and from the looks of the string it does but I will those who have tried both chime on whether this is accurate.
To my surprise after it was strung with SPPP in the crosses, it actually hits pretty good. It is slightly softer in feel than VS Team BT7 so it is not as crisp and definitely plays better in my opinion than Tough Gut which was just harsh for a gut string.
I only log about an hour hitting with it but it felt comfortable so now it's time to see if this cheaper string lasts as long or provides more value than VS Team.
Some say Genesis STS natural gut and Performaxx are one and the same and from the looks of the string it does but I will those who have tried both chime on whether this is accurate.
Orion3
Semi-Pro
Posted this in another thread - but it seems to be more relevant here!
I recently came into a couple sets of VS gut and was considering stringing one of my racquets in full gut - however, reading this thread and some others I'm now fairly convinced that a full bed of gut, whilst comfortable etc will see me lose the majority of additional spin I'm currently enjoying so much.
I'm an all-court player, with a baseline bias - hit heavy topspin of both flanks with an EX03 tour 16x18. Volleying was interesting when I first dropped to such a low tension, but I've found the more I play and get used to the feel the more comfortable I am. That said - volleys are not as good as they were but my groundies are much better.
I am now pretty much decided on a setup with a gut main/BHBR cross hybrid; and have a few questions about this setup.
1) Anyone played with this setup? what did you think?
2) Recommended tension - given that I currently play a full bed of BHBR strung at 40lb (and love it) what would be a sensible tension for me to string the hybrid at?
3) What kind of string-life should I expect from a hybrid? I read in other threads of people cutting out their poly crosses a couple of times before the gut mains go. I should mention that with any gut setup I'd always use Babolat string savers - I've always found they enhance both string life and spin.
4) I've also got a couple of sets of BHSR but not tried it yet. Anyone tried them in a hybrid?
Thanks in advance!
I recently came into a couple sets of VS gut and was considering stringing one of my racquets in full gut - however, reading this thread and some others I'm now fairly convinced that a full bed of gut, whilst comfortable etc will see me lose the majority of additional spin I'm currently enjoying so much.
I'm an all-court player, with a baseline bias - hit heavy topspin of both flanks with an EX03 tour 16x18. Volleying was interesting when I first dropped to such a low tension, but I've found the more I play and get used to the feel the more comfortable I am. That said - volleys are not as good as they were but my groundies are much better.
I am now pretty much decided on a setup with a gut main/BHBR cross hybrid; and have a few questions about this setup.
1) Anyone played with this setup? what did you think?
2) Recommended tension - given that I currently play a full bed of BHBR strung at 40lb (and love it) what would be a sensible tension for me to string the hybrid at?
3) What kind of string-life should I expect from a hybrid? I read in other threads of people cutting out their poly crosses a couple of times before the gut mains go. I should mention that with any gut setup I'd always use Babolat string savers - I've always found they enhance both string life and spin.
4) I've also got a couple of sets of BHSR but not tried it yet. Anyone tried them in a hybrid?
Thanks in advance!
Lambsscroll
Hall of Fame
I tried the Titan gut 16g / BHBR hybrid and found it gave me less control and spin when compared to Titan 16g / Luxilon Monotec SuperPoly 16L combo. I think this has to do with the greater stiffness in the Monotec SuperPoly.
Orion3
Semi-Pro
So maybe worth stringing the BHSR, as it's stiffer?
What tensions would you suggest given my current preference for low tension full-beds; or does this have little/no bearing on a hybrid setup?
Sorry to ask so many questions!!
Lambsscroll
Hall of Fame
Personally since BHSR is stiffer I would use that. I would also string your racket at 40 pounds.
parasailing
Legend
I put another 2 hours on the courts hitting with Genesis Gut and SPPP and it's not a bad string. So far, 4 hours of use, and this natural gut and SPPP hits really nice. It is not as plush as say VS but at $25 dollars a set, it's also a lot cheaper. It's definitely not as stiff as Pacific Tough Gut and so far plays pretty well.
Will keep you guys updated to see how long this last.
Will keep you guys updated to see how long this last.
Orion3
Semi-Pro
Getting the hybrid strung tomorrow and after some advice from a Prince tech have settled on the VS mains at 50lb and the poly crosses at 44lb
Given that I want to generate as much spin as possible (coming from a full bed of poly); my question is..
What Poly?
What I have ready to hand is -BHBR, BHSR or Pro Hurricane.
As crosses, will the twisted polys augment spin or will the Pro Hurricane allow the gut to slide more easily?
Regardless, I will be using stingsavers; so will I see a real difference anyway?
:-?:-?:-?
Thanks
Given that I want to generate as much spin as possible (coming from a full bed of poly); my question is..
What Poly?
What I have ready to hand is -BHBR, BHSR or Pro Hurricane.
As crosses, will the twisted polys augment spin or will the Pro Hurricane allow the gut to slide more easily?
Regardless, I will be using stingsavers; so will I see a real difference anyway?
:-?:-?:-?
Thanks
ahuimanu
Rookie
Thanks for the re-post! I've been playing this game for a long time and the read has been very educational...
What SPPP you use, Pure (white string) or the original orange string?
Have you tried Babolat Tonic gut in the mains?
parasailing
Legend
SPPP the orange one. I don't like tonic gut as it's slightly stiffer and they don't offer 17 guage version of it which I prefer in all my strings. Better playability and easier to string. Durability might be better going with Tonic lower gauges but I get about 20 hours with a gut/poly setup, no reason to go with Tonic.
Top pros tend not to string their gut/co-poly hybrids above 55 or 56/51 or 52, and go down to 48/44 or so. So for the rest of us, I can't imagine why we'd be going higher. Controlling lower tensions is what it's about, with both full poly setups and gut/poly hybrids. During some recent tests, I've been happy with 55/51 (VS/Silverstring). IMO, the poly cross shouldn't be strung more than 2 pounds higher than if it were in a full poly setup. The gut main's tension is then determined by adding 4, as one should not creat a differential greater than 4 lbs or so as higher differentials can damage racquets.
Last edited:
ben123
Professional
............................
the only pro i know whos near the 48/44 is federer. but he uses 90sq head + string savers. djokovic is 60/58 and ivanovic is 56/54
I'm not sure but are the people stating you can spray oil on your strings sure this is legal? If I had a guy spraying oil on his strings as I was playing him I would think the oil would get on the balls and your hands. That would be a mess because then it would get on your own grip, etc.. Just making sure if this is really correct.
Thanks for the review. Really good information.
Djokovic was at 55/52 at Wimbledon with VS/ALU Rough.
B.BRYAN Prince Natural Gut / Luxilon Big Banger TiMo 1.10 49/53 lbs.
M.BRYAN Prince Natural Gut / Luxilon Big Banger TiMo 1.10 53/50 lbs.
Mardy Fish, 55/55, gut/Timo
ZVEREV Pacific Classic Natural Gut / Signum Pro Hyperion 25/23 kg (55lbs/51lbs)
DENT Babolat VS Touch / Luxilon ALU Power 1.25 43 lbs.
CHIUDINELLI Wilson Natural Gut / Luxilon ALU Power 1.25 25/24 kg.(55lbs/53lbs)
IVANOVIC Wilson Natural Gut / Luxilon ALU Power 1.25 57/55 lbs.
Last edited:
ben123
Professional
omg how often do i have to post real pics of djokovic racquets in 2011 to shut people up with djokovic strings 55/52
he does not -.- he strings 60/58 go ask priority one if you dont believe it. its been proven 1000times on this forum that he uses
60,5/58,5
all you did here was copying some specs out of some thread years ago (as dent doesnt even play anymore ..). congrats.
i dont want to be quoted anymore so here the real threads: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=389215&highlight=djokovic+specs sticker which says 27 which means 27kg
or here http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=380351&highlight=djokovic+gut
Last edited:
As you may recall, Dent played again this past year and those are the tensions.
The Bryan brothers switched to gut mains just this past year, and the tensions above are for the new setup.
I checked the links you provided and one involved you correcting someone else about Djokovic tensions, and the other had nothing about tensions.
I could have missed that info, and if I did, my apologies. But even if Djokovic uses tensions that you suggest he does, the point was that many pros, not just Federer, use lower tensions, even with gut. And while it's true Fed uses a 90 sq in headsize, he also has one of the heaviest raquests out there, which still supports the notion that cpntrolling the power and touch of a soft, low tension stringbed is the direction we are headed.
ben123
Professional
all im saying is djoko strings 60/58. i never said nobody strings low. and in the second thread you can clearly see one pic with djokos broken racquet with his tensions. if you didnt see it you should look at it again
I am currently experimenting with several others to see if we can find a multi for the mains that performs like gut when paired with poly crosses. The gut mains just seems to grab the ball better. The main reason, I think, is that because they are measurable softer, they spread more on impact and get "under" the ball. There are also theorues that oils from the gut get on the crosses and lubricate them, which enhances the snap back action that has been shown to contribute to spin. We have found some decent multis, but none quite the same. Still working on it. Next in our tests will be Babolat XCEL French Open. It is very soft. But we'll see. No multi comes close to the softness of gut.
JT_2eighty
Hall of Fame
This would depend on what different people feel the degree of this "almost".
In the mains with poly crosses, gut mains vs multi mains is extremely different. I've tried it, and multi/poly is just garbage compared to gut/poly. Gut has a crisp feel, controlled power and unique pocketing sensation that multi just cannot replicate. The multi goes dead very fast, breaks sooner, notches heavier, and does not snap back in any similar way to gut mains. The only multis that may play remotely close are in the $16+ price-range, at which point I will gladly pay $26 for Pacific gut, which only amounts to +$5 per racquet in a hybrid (or less if you look at multis like Xcel that are $18+).
Now, if you are talking about Crosses in poly/gut vs. poly/multi, then yes, the difference is is negligible, and for many the cost of gut Crosses is not worth it. Your main strings dominate the feel, so poly mains is going to be a completely different animal, regardless of the cross. Even here, there is a substantial difference in feel, but the cost is a lot more prohibitive for that difference.
However, if we are talking about gut Mains versus multi Mains, multi mains fall way short once you log any substantial play time.
Again, it's just personal preference. So if you found a good multi that works for you, by all means, don't use gut. For me, I personally find $26 Classic gut to perform well in hybrids, avoiding the $43 Babolat VS. We all find our own reasons to use or not use cheap and/or expensive strings.
Orion3
Semi-Pro
I finally went with VS16 mains and BHBR crosses at 52/46lb.
First impressions....wow!
Spin wise there is a noticeable (negative) difference; not huge but there's clearly a gap between the pure poly setup I've been playing and this hybrid.
Power and control however, are phenomenal. I can't believe I've not played with any kind of natural gut for so long. After one session I'm so impressed that I've already decided to get my second EX03 tour restrung. Although, I think on this one I will tweak the BHBR tension up to 48lbs.
One of the reasons I've avoided gut is the additional power it brings; I've never really needed or wanted it and never liked playing at 60+ tensions. With the poly crosses however, I've been blown away. The power is extremely controllable and I actually enjoyed the comfort it brought.
The other reason for avoiding gut is COST, but after today - I actually don't care anymore. I've enjoyed hitting (especially serves) so much, that I despite the significant extra layout I've decided to pay it and enjoy my tennis as much as I can, while I still can!
First impressions....wow!
Spin wise there is a noticeable (negative) difference; not huge but there's clearly a gap between the pure poly setup I've been playing and this hybrid.
Power and control however, are phenomenal. I can't believe I've not played with any kind of natural gut for so long. After one session I'm so impressed that I've already decided to get my second EX03 tour restrung. Although, I think on this one I will tweak the BHBR tension up to 48lbs.
One of the reasons I've avoided gut is the additional power it brings; I've never really needed or wanted it and never liked playing at 60+ tensions. With the poly crosses however, I've been blown away. The power is extremely controllable and I actually enjoyed the comfort it brought.
The other reason for avoiding gut is COST, but after today - I actually don't care anymore. I've enjoyed hitting (especially serves) so much, that I despite the significant extra layout I've decided to pay it and enjoy my tennis as much as I can, while I still can!
Smasher08
Legend
Not at all. First off, not all gut is $41+. Secondly, I used Intellitour 17 and RIP Control 17 for about 8 years, then tried a few poly hybrids before settling on gut/copoly ... and believe me, for players 5.0 and over, the differences are substantial.
Gut behaves differently than multis: more spin, more feel, more power. And gut in gut-copoly hybrids behaves differently at low tensions than probably any other setup: the power becomes very controllable.
When you hybrid a $25 gut with a $10 copoly, you're talking about a similar price to a high end multi -- with much better performance and longevity.
Ths isn't to say that multis and syn guts are terrible, but for me there's no comparison.
Smasher08
Legend
Actually, all we know from that photo is that Djoker strung one of his rackets at 59 at this year's Wimbledon (ie on grass).
Whether or not he's been going looser on clay and hardcourts this year is still unresolved.
But of course you'd know that, now wouldn't you Einstein?
Similar threads
