The serve is apparently useless in the women's game.

Nathaniel_Near · Jan 23, 2012

Watching Azarenka vs Radwanska, without giving any scores away all I can say is it seems that female players seem to not even 'respect' the idea of developing a good serve and seem less intent on developing a great set of skills to win with, like a laziness which inspires them to get by with as little as possible.

The WTA standard just seems very low to me. My hopes rest with Kvitova.

ThoughtCrime · Jan 23, 2012

Yeah, I really can't stand it, the girls have so much trouble holding serve sometimes. The serve falls apart even more when closing out a set and match as well, which can get frustrating.

As for Kvitova, I think she is one of the few female players that has good variety and effectiveness on the serve.

Moose Malloy · Jan 23, 2012

The serve sure was useless in the USO mens' final last year. That probably set the record for most breaks in a non clay major final in the Open Era.
But it was just cause Rafa & Nole are such great returners, right?

Cormorant · Jan 23, 2012

Azarenka has plenty of 'respect' for holding service games(as evinced by her many tantrums across the seasons when she gets broken), but has never found hot days conducive to great performances.

Nathaniel_Near · Jan 23, 2012

Moose Malloy said:
The serve sure was useless in the USO mens' final last year. That probably set the record for most breaks in a non clay major final in the Open Era.
But it was just cause Rafa & Nole are such great returners, right?

This is an outstanding post.

Actually no it isn't. The men just serve better and I see way too many break-fests way too frequently on the WTA. It's not good enough really, don't they focus so much on the serve as the men from an early age?

Nadal and especially Djokovic are certainly top rank returners but the serving in that final was quite poor indeed.

Nathaniel_Near · Jan 23, 2012

Somebody like Kvitova could really over the next few years set the WTA alight because she has the skills, the drive, the mind and the serve. The women need to become more ambitious in developing an all around skillset. Like somebody mentioned earlier, it is quite bizarre how an unusual amount of WTA players are barely capable of hitting a biting slice. The WTA has seen great times in the past with truly amazing players with outstanding skill sets, an obvious example being Steffi Graf.

The tour is screaming out for somebody to take it by the scruff of the net and show it what can truly be done on a tennis court.

OrangePower · Jan 23, 2012

Nathaniel_Near said:
Somebody like Kvitova could really over the next few years set the WTA alight because she has the skills, the drive, the mind and the serve. The women need to become more ambitious in developing an all around skillset. Like somebody mentioned earlier, it is quite bizarre how an unusual amount of WTA players are barely capable of hitting a biting slice. The WTA has seen great times in the past with truly amazing players with outstanding skill sets, an obvious example being Steffi Graf.

The tour is screaming out for somebody to take it by the scruff of the net and show it what can truly be done on a tennis court.

Bad choice of words, all things considered...

Speranza · Jan 23, 2012

Holmes: What with the discussion being had in another thread re. Lendl and level of play in his day compared to today, something has just occurred to me.

Has the (lack of a good) serve always been an issue for women in the WTA? If the answer is yes, don't carry on reading. If the answer is no, please do.

So if athletes improve over decades/eras naturally, why is it that the women's serve hasn't? Or is it that technology has aided the return more in the women's game when you also consider the improvement(?) in athleticism?

Speranza · Jan 23, 2012

OrangePower said:
Bad choice of words, all things considered...

T e n

s

Nathaniel_Near · Jan 23, 2012

OrangePower said:
Bad choice of words, all things considered...

Yeh let's have less screaming in the WTA tour, good point.

uNIVERSE mAN · Jan 23, 2012

I'm just praying for someone to win as fast as possible so the Federer match can come on at a reasonable time.

dcdoorknob · Jan 23, 2012

:shock:

Nathaniel_Near said:
Watching Azarenka vs Radwanska, without giving any scores away all I can say is it seems that female players seem to not even 'respect' the idea of developing a good serve and seem less intent on developing a great set of skills to win with, like a laziness which inspires them to get by with as little as possible.

An impressive amount of delusion here. They are top 10 players, but it's really because they are lazy and try to get by with as little as possible. And I'm sure the primary reason that women don't serve as big as men in general is just because they haven't tried very hard, and has nothing to do with the physical differences between the two genders.:shock:

OrangePower · Jan 23, 2012

dcdoorknob said:
:shock:

An impressive amount of delusion here. They are top 10 players, but it's really because they are lazy and try to get by with as little as possible. And I'm sure the primary reason that women don't serve as big as men in general is just because they haven't tried very hard, and has nothing to do with the physical differences between the two genders.:shock:

Not that they themselves are lazy; just that the way they are taught the game these days has an overemphasis on baseline play and not enough attention to serve and holding serve. And no-one expects the women to serve as big as the men. You don't need a huge serve to hold serve. Getting a high 1st serve % and not hitting doubles faults goes a long way.

Nathaniel_Near · Jan 23, 2012

dcdoorknob said:
An impressive amount of delusion here. They are top 10 players, but it's really because they are lazy and try to get by with as little as possible. And I'm sure the primary reason that women don't serve as big as men in general is just because they haven't tried very hard, and has nothing to do with the physical differences between the two genders.

That's right, I believe too many of the top WTA players are settling for less at the moment and if one or two really stand up and take it upon themselves to not settle with the skills they already have, they can begin to dominate this landscape.

:twisted:

The post above mine sums some of it up perfectly.

uNIVERSE mAN · Jan 23, 2012

I'm just shocked Azarenka has been stretchered out yet. It's 30 degrees.

LeeD · Jan 23, 2012

Why stress serves when your groundies can hit almost as fast?
A great serve just messes up your baseline bashing attitude.

dcdoorknob · Jan 23, 2012

OrangePower said:
Not that they themselves are lazy; just that the way they are taught the game these days has an overemphasis on baseline play and not enough attention to serve and holding serve. And no-one expects the women to serve as big as the men. You don't need a huge serve to hold serve. Getting a high 1st serve % and not hitting doubles faults goes a long way.

I don't really disagree with anything you just said. The OP concluding that the main reason women don't have serves is because they are lazy and simply haven't tried is what I took exception to. The difference between the two positions is pretty massive.

But there are definitely limits to how great a serve can be (esp. when pitted against the best returners) with limited height and upper body strength. Radwanska strikes me as an intelligent, court savvy player. Somehow I doubt that the main reason her serve is a relative weakness is because it simply hasn't occurred to her to try and make it better.

Tcbtennis · Jan 23, 2012

Radwanska weighs at most 128 pounds. As much as she will ever try she will never be able to develop a powerful serve. She makes up for this with her ability to absorb and use the power of her taller and stronger opponents. Her on court tennis intelligence also has allowed her to get as far as she battles against the amazon 6' women.

I get tired of all the WTA bashers out there. So stop watching womens tennis! It is a different game. The women range in height from 5'4" to 6'3". They range in weight from tiny Vania King to husky Serena Williams or Kuznetsova. They, on average, don't have the musculature or the overall athleticism as men. That will never change. The bigger girls have bigger serves just because of the physics of their bodies. And they use that serve to their advantage in their games. It is easier to attack the serve of their opponents which is why their are so many breaks of serve. Get use to it because it's not going to change. There are some who will understand and stop whining but some of you just won't get it. So it is those who don't get it that I say, "Stop watching womens tennis!"

nissrro · Jan 23, 2012

uNIVERSE mAN said:
I'm just praying for someone to win as fast as possible so the Federer match can come on at a reasonable time.

+1.......

Tcbtennis · Jan 23, 2012

uNIVERSE mAN said:
I'm just praying for someone to win as fast as possible so the Federer match can come on at a reasonable time.

-1
I'm looking foward to Clijsters v Wozniacki.

OrangePower · Jan 23, 2012

Tcbtennis said:
Radwanska weighs at most 128 pounds. As much as she will ever try she will never be able to develop a powerful serve. She makes up for this with her ability to absorb and use the power of her taller and stronger opponents. Her on court tennis intelligence also has allowed her to get as far as she battles against the amazon 6' women.

I get tired of all the WTA bashers out there. So stop watching womens tennis! It is a different game. The women range in height from 5'4" to 6'3". They range in weight from tiny Vania King to husky Serena Williams or Kuznetsova. They, on average, don't have the musculature or the overall athleticism as men. That will never change. The bigger girls have bigger serves just because of the physics of their bodies. And they use that serve to their advantage in their games. It is easier to attack the serve of their opponents which is why their are so many breaks of serve. Get use to it because it's not going to change. There are some who will understand and stop whining but some of you just won't get it. So it is those who don't get it that I say, "Stop watching womens tennis!"

Good theory... So how does it explain the number of double faults and general 'service game yips' by women like Azarenka, Sharapova and Williams, who are all on the taller and more powerful end of the scale?

Tcbtennis · Jan 23, 2012

OrangePower said:
Good theory... So how does it explain the number of double faults and general 'service game yips' by women like Azarenka, Sharapova and Williams, who are all on the taller and more powerful end of the scale?

First of all, Serena Williams doesn't get the 'yips' when she serves. (I'm not including her loss to Makarova because that was just a bad serving day for her and not her norm.) Sharapova's serving problems were due to her shoulder injury as her serve was one of her weapons. If you want to discuss Ivanovic or Dementieva, they are much better examples of tall and powerful women who have problems with their serves. If you believe all the tennis commentators, their problems are due to mental blocks. I don't know. Also, very few women can really hit a true kick serve for a second serve that clears the net with a high margin and drops into the service box because of the spin. Therefore there are more double faults. Sam Stosur is one of the few who can but look at the size of her arms. I don't think that most women can generate the amount of racquet head speed needed to generate that type of spin that men can. That is why women tend to hit flatter. For me that doesn't mean that it is an inferior brand of tennis that a number of trolls on this forum think. It's just different and I enjoy it. Sometimes it can be boring when it's just baseline to baseline but that is happening in a lot of mens matches as well.

OrangePower · Jan 23, 2012

Tcbtennis said:
First of all, Serena Williams doesn't get the 'yips' when she serves. (I'm not including her loss to Makarova because that was just a bad serving day for her and not her norm.) Sharapova's serving problems were due to her shoulder injury as her serve was one of her weapons. If you want to discuss Ivanovic or Dementieva, they are much better examples of tall and powerful women who have problems with their serves. If you believe all the tennis commentators, their problems are due to mental blocks. I don't know. Also, very few women can really hit a true kick serve for a second serve that clears the net with a high margin and drops into the service box because of the spin. Therefore there are more double faults. Sam Stosur is one of the few who can but look at the size of her arms. I don't think that most women can generate the amount of racquet head speed needed to generate that type of spin that men can. That is why women tend to hit flatter. For me that doesn't mean that it is an inferior brand of tennis that a number of trolls on this forum think. It's just different and I enjoy it. Sometimes it can be boring when it's just baseline to baseline but that is happening in a lot of mens matches as well.

Fair enough you make some good points, but I still think a lot of it is due to a relative lack of focus on serve vs baseline strokes during the formative years of female juniors. I still enjoy women's tennis but not as much as I did when there were more well rounded players like Navratilova and Graf.

Defcon · Jan 23, 2012

Most women are mindless ball bashers with zero knowledge of strategy, variety or positioning. You can see this at any training camp. All they're taught is stroke production, the serve is just a way to get the point started.

sargeinaz · Jan 23, 2012

Women's tennis nowadays is worthless.

Nathaniel_Near · Jan 24, 2012

OrangePower said:
Fair enough you make some good points, but I still think a lot of it is due to a relative lack of focus on serve vs baseline strokes during the formative years of female juniors. I still enjoy women's tennis but not as much as I did when there were more well rounded players like Navratilova and Graf.

Absolutely.

dominikk1985 · Jan 24, 2012

the williams sisters, kvitova and lisicki are good servers. but that's pretty much it.

ivanovic has a hard first but pathetic second serve.

Defcon · Jan 24, 2012

Justine Henin was an awesome server. You don't have to be big, just need talent and hard work. None of the women even try to place the serve with any accuracy.

equinox · Jan 24, 2012

An absurd world were inferior tactical and athletic performances are rewarded so handsomely.

I see more strategy in womens beach volley than in wta tennis.

I say put them all in bikinis and let the public vote with there attendance.

Magnetite · Jan 24, 2012

It just sucks that we have to wait until a couple of B league hacks finish playing before we can watch the ATP players step on the court.

I'm all for women playing tennis, and receiving the support they need to turn pro. It's great for society as a whole that women have more of an opportunity these days.

It just sucks that we have to watch them play, when the quality of play is generally so poor. We wouldn't watch men playing such crappy tennis would we?

But, life is life. We'll watch them flap about, waiting until we can watch the best players in the world go at it.

At least some of the women are hot, and/or at least have nice legs.

I'm sorry, but it's the truth.

monfed · Jan 24, 2012

Nathaniel_Near said:
Watching Azarenka vs Radwanska, without giving any scores away all I can say is it seems that female players seem to not even 'respect' the idea of developing a good serve and seem less intent on developing a great set of skills to win with, like a laziness which inspires them to get by with as little as possible.

The WTA standard just seems very low to me. My hopes rest with Kvitova.

It's close to useless in the men's game with the super slow HCs we have today. Nadal returning Berdych's 210 kmph bombs from the "Melbourne" sign should tell you something.

dominikk1985 · Jan 24, 2012

Tcbtennis said:
Radwanska weighs at most 128 pounds. As much as she will ever try she will never be able to develop a powerful serve. She makes up for this with her ability to absorb and use the power of her taller and stronger opponents. Her on court tennis intelligence also has allowed her to get as far as she battles against the amazon 6' women.

I get tired of all the WTA bashers out there. So stop watching womens tennis! It is a different game. The women range in height from 5'4" to 6'3". They range in weight from tiny Vania King to husky Serena Williams or Kuznetsova. They, on average, don't have the musculature or the overall athleticism as men. That will never change. The bigger girls have bigger serves just because of the physics of their bodies. And they use that serve to their advantage in their games. It is easier to attack the serve of their opponents which is why their are so many breaks of serve. Get use to it because it's not going to change. There are some who will understand and stop whining but some of you just won't get it. So it is those who don't get it that I say, "Stop watching womens tennis!"

well of course the body makes a difference. serena is huge of course but kvitova and lisicki are also very big girls weighing at least 160 pounds at a hieght of nearly 6 feet.

that helps but they also have good technique.

other girls on the tour often have no technique. some second serves are comedy

.

joeri888 · Jan 24, 2012

I expected to see some stats here on the percentage of service games won in the women's game. I think the second serve in the women's game is way more attackable then any groundstroke.

Tcbtennis · Jan 24, 2012

Magnetite said:
It just sucks that we have to wait until a couple of B league hacks finish playing before we can watch the ATP players step on the court.

I'm all for women playing tennis, and receiving the support they need to turn pro. It's great for society as a whole that women have more of an opportunity these days.

It just sucks that we have to watch them play, when the quality of play is generally so poor. We wouldn't watch men playing such crappy tennis would we?

But, life is life. We'll watch them flap about, waiting until we can watch the best players in the world go at it.

At least some of the women are hot, and/or at least have nice legs.

I'm sorry, but it's the truth.

No, it's not the truth. It's your truth and your opinion which you are absolutely entitled to. But don't think because you found scores of like minded young men on an internet forum it supersede the millions of people around the world who enjoy womens tennis. Where you see a B league match others saw a riveting match between Clijsters and Wozniacki where they marveled at Clijsters ball striking and athleticism. Then applauded Wozniacki attempt to fight back and cringed at Clijsters' almost choking.

I understand that most of you are likely young men who enjoy the power and athleticism that is seen in men's tennis and also like to look and pretty women. That's fine and normal. But don't think that the women of the WTA are there to serve you. They compete because they love the game and the competition. If you don't want to watch, then DON'T WATCH. If you don't want to wait for the match to finish then TOO BAD. All through life you have to wait for everything. I don't like football but I have to wait for it to finish before I can see 60 Minutes. I don't huff and puff and complain about it. I just wait.

Men and women are built differently. Women will never be as powerful and athletic as men. Their game is adapted for that. There are a few outliers who have powerful groundstrokes and serves but that is the exception. But I guarantee that if the majority of women players were built powerfully like the men and played like them most of you guys would complain about that too. Bye, I'm done.

ttbrowne · Jan 24, 2012

There was a post where a women's coach explained the wacky difference between the WTA & ATP style of play. I can't remember where it was but it was great.

Magnetite · Jan 24, 2012

Tcbtennis said:
No, it's not the truth. It's your truth and your opinion which you are absolutely entitled to. But don't think because you found scores of like minded young men on an internet forum it supersede the millions of people around the world who enjoy womens tennis. Where you see a B league match others saw a riveting match between Clijsters and Wozniacki where they marveled at Clijsters ball striking and athleticism. Then applauded Wozniacki attempt to fight back and cringed at Clijsters' almost choking.

I understand that most of you are likely young men who enjoy the power and athleticism that is seen in men's tennis and also like to look and pretty women. That's fine and normal. But don't think that the women of the WTA are there to serve you. They compete because they love the game and the competition. If you don't want to watch, then DON'T WATCH. If you don't want to wait for the match to finish then TOO BAD. All through life you have to wait for everything. I don't like football but I have to wait for it to finish before I can see 60 Minutes. I don't huff and puff and complain about it. I just wait.

Men and women are built differently. Women will never be as powerful and athletic as men. Their game is adapted for that. There are a few outliers who have powerful groundstrokes and serves but that is the exception. But I guarantee that if the majority of women players were built powerfully like the men and played like them most of you guys would complain about that too. Bye, I'm done.

I would enjoy it if they served me drinks, while watching Federer and Nadal play their semi. Maybe Kirilenko and Ivanovic. That would make me a true WTA fan.

Cindysphinx · Jan 24, 2012

Tcbtennis said:
First of all, Serena Williams doesn't get the 'yips' when she serves. (I'm not including her loss to Makarova because that was just a bad serving day for her and not her norm.) Sharapova's serving problems were due to her shoulder injury as her serve was one of her weapons. If you want to discuss Ivanovic or Dementieva, they are much better examples of tall and powerful women who have problems with their serves. If you believe all the tennis commentators, their problems are due to mental blocks. I don't know. Also, very few women can really hit a true kick serve for a second serve that clears the net with a high margin and drops into the service box because of the spin. Therefore there are more double faults. Sam Stosur is one of the few who can but look at the size of her arms. I don't think that most women can generate the amount of racquet head speed needed to generate that type of spin that men can. That is why women tend to hit flatter. For me that doesn't mean that it is an inferior brand of tennis that a number of trolls on this forum think. It's just different and I enjoy it. Sometimes it can be boring when it's just baseline to baseline but that is happening in a lot of mens matches as well.

+1.

I don't understand the problem with women's tennis. Why do some individuals insist on judging women's tennis by male standards?

Take the issue of breaks. Where is it written that having a lot of breaks makes a match less enjoyable? I think matches with lots of breaks are actually more interesting. The expectation is that the server will hold, so if the server holds it is not very interesting. If players are trading breaks, the match is a cliff-hanger.

Take the issue of DFs. Yes, DFs are dull. But aces are dull also. For me, rallies are interesting, and both men and women's tennis have exciting rallies.

Seriously, if you don't like women's tennis, don't watch it. Sometimes I enjoy it; sometimes I don't, but that is true of men's tennis as well. If you expect women to serve like men, that's just dumb. The women's game rewards different things. Try accepting it on its own terms and you might enjoy it.

LeeD · Jan 24, 2012

The voice of reason!

Miso · Jan 24, 2012

Not only the serve but the backhand slice, the drop volley, volleying in general that is used offensively rather than being forced to move forward; all court play.

They don't even have to serve huge but come on, play the corners at least. Move them out wide, come in a volley to the other side. But no. They just roll it into the middle of the box.

It's sad that all they want to do is rally. Literally, they don't want to construct points, don't want to come to the net. Nothing but hit from the baseline and hope someone misses.

That's why I enjoyed Schiavone's French triumph so much. She played everywhere on court and did so beautifully.

LeeD · Jan 24, 2012

There is a certain strategy in favor of "rolling it up the middle".
First, if the server doesn't have a forcing serve.
Up the middle lessens the chances for angled returns.
Since the serve is used to starting the rally, rather than try to end the point, what's better than an "up the middle" serve?
As for all that forwards and backwards running, most big hitting women players DON'T want to initiate an agility test, so want to keep the status quo.

Miso · Jan 24, 2012

Not up the middle as in the T. Into the middle of the box. Where it becomes a sitting duck and gets crushed as a return.

LeeD · Jan 24, 2012

I am not clueless.
Of course, right AT the server, hopefully to make the receiver backpeddle away from the ball to hit a solid groundstroke return.
Can you get out of your own way?

Miso · Jan 24, 2012

I don't know what you mean by that question.

But an non threatening serve, in the middle of the box, in the pros, puts the server on the defensive. Simple as that.

The serve is apparently useless in the women's game.

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