Need Help ASAP in this Appeal

FedHenry · Aug 6, 2012

I'm the captain of my 3.5 team and were playing the sectionals championship this weekend. Long Story short we lost on the Quarterfinals 2-3. One of the other teams Singles players destroy my #1 singles player 6-1,6-2. My guy has only lost once all season. Then i got informed (some random guy watching the games) That i should appeal their singles player ranking. After looking and asking around we found out that he played College Tennis (NCAA Div 2) for 3 seasons (04,05,06), he haven't played this season a single game until the final two games because he was training and competing to qualify for the OLYMPICS!!! in beach volleyball for Puerto Rico. He is Self Rated also and enrolled to play on their team on the league July/11/12. He on all-court skills were amazing, he didnt missed a smash and hit them with authority and confidence every single one, he punish the short ball with the forehand every time and a great serve.
All in all i dont really want to go through this appeal, i was the one who lost on the Super Tie 10-8

and i'm gonna look like a sore loser. But my team want me to do it.
Do i have something here??
Thanks for your replies

OrangePower · Aug 6, 2012

If this guy really is an ex-DII player still in his twenties, then he cannot self-rate at 3.5. You would win a self-rating grievance appeal.

But are you sure it's really the same guy? I just find it hard to believe that a 20-something DII college player who is also an olympic-caliber volleyball player would care about 3.5 tennis. Seems a bit of a downward step in competition intensity from Olympics qualifying to 3.5 tennis.

Govnor · Aug 6, 2012

yeah, not sure he is a legit 3.5 by the sounds of it!

goober · Aug 6, 2012

FedHenry said:
I'm the captain of my 3.5 team and were playing the sectionals championship this weekend. Long Story short we lost on the Quarterfinals 2-3. One of the other teams Singles players destroy my #1 singles player 6-1,6-2. My guy has only lost once all season. Then i got informed (some random guy watching the games) That i should appeal their singles player ranking. After looking and asking around we found out that he played College Tennis (NCAA Div 2) for 3 seasons (04,05,06), he haven't played this season a single game until the final two games because he was training and competing to qualify for the OLYMPICS!!! in beach volleyball for Puerto Rico. He is Self Rated also and enrolled to play on their team on the league July/11/12. He on all-court skills were amazing, he didnt missed a smash and hit them with authority and confidence every single one, he punish the short ball with the forehand every time and a great serve.
All in all i dont really want to go through this appeal, i was the one who lost on the Super Tie 10-8 and i'm gonna look like a sore loser. But my team want me to do it.
Do i have something here??
Thanks for your replies

So he didn't qualify for the Olympics and decided to play 3.5 USTA sectionals instead? Somehow it doesn't sound right.

But you could file a greivance based on his college record. He will probably get DQ'ed with such lopsided scores.

Angle Queen · Aug 6, 2012

FedHenry said:
I'm the captain of my 3.5 team...

All in all i dont really want to go through this appeal, i was the one who lost on the Super Tie 10-8 and i'm gonna look like a sore loser. But my team want me to do it.

Stinks being a captain sometimes, doesn't it.

But you are the captain, and if you really don't want to do it, then don't.

That said, if you're sure you've got the right guy/background, I'd say you have a fairly serious case worth pursuing....but only if your district/section will go back and reverse the match score...allowing your team to advance in their stead. If that's not the case, find out who they're playing next...and hand them all your research. If it's in some sort of playoffs, they might be able to file things prior to a match getting underway and preventing him from participating.

Keep us posted on what you decided and how it turns out, please. I have a personal interest in these cases where a self-rate does in fact grossly affect the outcome of post-season play.

JLyon · Aug 6, 2012

a little late to file a greivance now, most Sections require it be done about 2 weeks out at least before sectionals. Best case would be he gets triple bumped to 5.0 and is suspended for 6 months as well as the captain being suspended for such a blatant self-rate, provided you are sure, you have the correct player and college experience

JLyon · Aug 6, 2012

OrangePower said:
If this guy really is an ex-DII player still in his twenties, then he cannot self-rate at 3.5. You would win a self-rating grievance appeal.

But are you sure it's really the same guy? I just find it hard to believe that a 20-something DII college player who is also an olympic-caliber volleyball player would care about 3.5 tennis. Seems a bit of a downward step in competition intensity from Olympics qualifying to 3.5 tennis.

n/m my reading comprehension sucks, my bad

leroy_sunset · Aug 6, 2012

JLyon said:
What does that say about the OP when he only loses 10-8 in MTB to what could be a 5.0 player at 3.5? Sandbag much?

I think he meant that he lost his own match to a different opponent. The shellacking was perpetrated against one of his players.

tenniscasey · Aug 6, 2012

D2 tennis is a rather drastic step down from D1. And he played in it six years ago. The 3.5 rate isnt obviously unreasonable to me.

OrangePower · Aug 6, 2012

tenniscasey said:
D2 tennis is a rather drastic step down from D1. And he played in it six years ago. The 3.5 rate isnt obviously unreasonable to me.

Well... agree that D2 is a big step down from D1... but still a young ex-D2 player rating as 3.5 is way beyond reason - see guidelines here:

http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/ExperiencedGuidelines_02142011_V2pdf.pdf

Or perhaps you were being sarcastic

Actually, even with very limited tennis experience, a young Olympic-caliber volleyball player should not be self-rating at 3.5. With that kind of athletic ability and hand-eye-ball coordination, such a player would improve very drastically very quickly.

Having said all that I still think there is some misidentification going on here. I don't see an Olympic hopeful having any motiviation to dominate at 3.5 tennis.

goober · Aug 6, 2012

tenniscasey said:
D2 tennis is a rather drastic step down from D1. And he played in it six years ago. The 3.5 rate isnt obviously unreasonable to me.

Well he would have to rate 4.5 if he is 26-35 and he played on an unranked team with no scholies or 5.5 otherwise according to the experienced players guidelines.

There is no way an ex D2 tennis player still in his 20s and obviously in fantastic shape from preparing for the olympics would be a 3.5. But I have seen a 26 year old ex D1 player with a 4.0C rating so who knows how these things work.

FedHenry · Aug 6, 2012

Thanks for all the replies
The other captain is one of those who covers all the island searching for talent and building a dream team. But he is a famous Sportcaster here on the island so he has pull. As far as their singles players go, he play in AVP and Norceca beach circuit and he even has a WIKIPEDIA page (i know its funny) The PR Olympic team cut funds in beach volleyball that's why he didnt when over.

FedHenry · Aug 6, 2012

OrangePower said:
Well... agree that D2 is a big step down from D1... but still a young ex-D2 player rating as 3.5 is way beyond reason - see guidelines here:

http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/ExperiencedGuidelines_02142011_V2pdf.pdf

Or perhaps you were being sarcastic

Actually, even with very limited tennis experience, a young Olympic-caliber volleyball player should not be self-rating at 3.5. With that kind of athletic ability and hand-eye-ball coordination, such a player would improve very drastically very quickly.

Having said all that I still think there is some misidentification going on here. I don't see an Olympic hopeful having any motiviation to dominate at 3.5 tennis.

You save my behind with this info. This is going in the appeal Now
So thanks

FedHenry · Aug 6, 2012

JLyon said:
What does that say about the OP when he only loses 10-8 in MTB to what could be a 5.0 player at 3.5? Sandbag much?

I was the one who lost the deciding 3rd double 4-6,7-6,8-10

FedHenry · Aug 6, 2012

tenniscasey said:
D2 tennis is a rather drastic step down from D1. And he played in it six years ago. The 3.5 rate isnt obviously unreasonable to me.

I got new info now and he played 06-09

beernutz · Aug 6, 2012

Are you sure he played D2? I don't find any record of him here: http://www.collegetennisonline.com

FWIW G.A.F or W.C., you provided more than enough information to find the player you were talking about using tennislink.

beernutz · Aug 6, 2012

tenniscasey said:
D2 tennis is a rather drastic step down from D1. And he played in it six years ago. The 3.5 rate isnt obviously unreasonable to me.

The idea that any mid-20s former college player, D2 or otherwise, should be playing 3.5 is insane.

jmnk · Aug 6, 2012

beernutz said:
The idea that any mid-20s former college player, D2 or otherwise, should be playing 3.5 is insane.

or that such player would lose 3games to a 3.5 player....

goober · Aug 6, 2012

beernutz said:
Are you sure he played D2? I don't find any record of him here: http://www.collegetennisonline.com

FWIW G.A.F or W.C., you provided more than enough information to find the player you were talking about using tennislink.

Maybe he played D2 vollyball? :mrgreen:

FedHenry · Aug 6, 2012

goober said:
Maybe he played D2 vollyball? :mrgreen:

He is part of the PR National Team

in both court and beach

gmatheis · Aug 6, 2012

JLyon said:
What does that say about the OP when he only loses 10-8 in MTB to what could be a 5.0 player at 3.5? Sandbag much?

to me it says that you don't read the post very carefully

gmatheis · Aug 6, 2012

tenniscasey said:
D2 tennis is a rather drastic step down from D1. And he played in it six years ago. The 3.5 rate isnt obviously unreasonable to me.

Are you smokin something?

D2 may not be D1 but someone who played 3 yrs of d3 just a few years ago and is obviously still a very athletic person should be a 4.5 minimum probably

tenniscasey · Aug 6, 2012

gmatheis said:
Are you smokin something?

D2 may not be D1 but someone who played 3 yrs of d3 just a few years ago and is obviously still a very athletic person should be a 4.5 minimum probably

Probably, maybe, who knows. Kid dropped three games in his 3.5 match, I doubt he's any better than a 4.0 looking at it objectively.

And the "he was a D2 player" thing is really sounding dicier by the minute.

JLyon · Aug 6, 2012

FedHenry said:
I was the one who lost the deciding 3rd double 4-6,7-6,8-10

yeah sorry I was obviously talking out my backside and did not read between the lines or the middle lines for that matter.

Local Girl · Aug 6, 2012

This is from the USTA League Regulations that apply to all Sections. The deadline to file the NTRP grievance against the self-rate player is 48 hours after the Section Championships. So if the Section Championships ended Sunday 7/29 at 1pm, you have until 7/31 1pm to file the grievance. You should confirm the deadline with the Section League Coordinator.

3.03A(6)
Exception made to Reg. 3.03A (6) so that NTRP Grievances may NOT
be filed at any time. This change prevents a conflict with Reg. 3.03E(3)
which does not allow an NTRP Grievance to be filed after the conclusion
of 48 hours of the Section Championship against whom the NTRP
Grievance was filed and also does not allow an NTRP Grievance to be
filed at National Championships.

beernutz · Aug 6, 2012

jmnk said:
or that such player would lose 3games to a 3.5 player....

It is much easier to control how many games you lose as opposed to how many games you win.

FedHenry · Aug 6, 2012

Local Girl said:
This is from the USTA League Regulations that apply to all Sections. The deadline to file the NTRP grievance against the self-rate player is 48 hours after the Section Championships. So if the Section Championships ended Sunday 7/29 at 1pm, you have until 7/31 1pm to file the grievance. You should confirm the deadline with the Section League Coordinator.

3.03A(6)
Exception made to Reg. 3.03A (6) so that NTRP Grievances may NOT
be filed at any time. This change prevents a conflict with Reg. 3.03E(3)
which does not allow an NTRP Grievance to be filed after the conclusion
of 48 hours of the Section Championship against whom the NTRP
Grievance was filed and also does not allow an NTRP Grievance to be
filed at National Championships.

i have until tomorrow noon. we play the quaterfinals so if i win the appeal we play on friday.

Jack the Hack · Aug 6, 2012

I have been a captain for 5 seasons, so I have some experience with this. If you have a competitive team that set a goal of winning matches and advancing in local/sectional/national play (verses being a socially motivated team), then it is your duty as the captain to help that team win in any way possible within the rules. Therefore, in this case, if an opposing player can be disqualified for not following the rules and you can get the match scores reversed, you must do it.

A few seasons ago, we faced a team that had a dominant singles player that had been nationally ranked in D2 and was under the age of 30, but had illegally self rated at 4.5. I polled my team to get their consensus, which was to file the grievance. This was not easy, as I knew that it would cause controversy. Sure enough, that player was disqualified and his matches reversed. It knocked their team out of the playoffs and allowed my team to advance. Many of the other captains thought I was being an @**, and I still get dirty looks once and awhile. However, it was the other team that was cheating, and I could care less about the misguided opinions of folks outside my team.

FedHenry · Aug 6, 2012

tenniscasey said:
Probably, maybe, who knows. Kid dropped three games in his 3.5 match, I doubt he's any better than a 4.0 looking at it objectively.

And the "he was a D2 player" thing is really sounding dicier by the minute.

believe he was. If you are a athlete any sport is easier to pick up. Example on this sectional a team had Javier Vazquez the former MLB player (search wiki) and i saw him last year and he was average at 3.0 level. This year he didnt dropped at set on the regular season in 3.5. The guy i filed the appeal against is at his peak in his sport (beach volleybal), not a retired MLB pitcher
He played college tennis here and a few friends of mine that did the computer rank them 5.0. So i think i have a point now

FedHenry · Aug 6, 2012

Jack the Hack said:
I have been a captain for 5 seasons, so I have some experience with this. If you have a competitive team that set a goal of winning matches and advancing in local/sectional/national play (verses being a socially motivated team), then it is your duty as the captain to help that team win in any way possible within the rules. Therefore, in this case, if an opposing player can be disqualified for not following the rules and you can get the match scores reversed, you must do it.

A few seasons ago, we faced a team that had a dominant singles player that had been nationally ranked in D2 and was under the age of 30, but had illegally self rated at 4.5. I polled my team to get their consensus, which was to file the grievance. This was not easy, as I knew that it would cause controversy. Sure enough, that player was disqualified and his matches reversed. It knocked their team out of the playoffs and allowed my team to advance. Many of the other captains thought I was being an @**, and I still get dirty looks once and awhile. However, it was the other team that was cheating, and I could care less about the misguided opinions of folks outside my team.

We have a great team and every year (3 years) we advance to sectionals here and we won the first season (3.0)and got a third place at nationals in AZ. Everyone in our category knows who we are because we are all under 26

they called us the kids! So we are very competitive but we are all been friends since High school or college so we are like a family. Everybody plays doubles with everybody, in this season not a single line-up was the same. So you know what i mean we play this because its fun and its keep us in shape (to get ladies

, kidding)
Their team were 7-0 before the guy joined the team so its not like they needed him. They had a great team and he just wanna make sure that their team didnt fell short again. But he joined the league one day before the deadline put a beat down in his first match and then won 6-4,7-5 to a guy that plays 3.5 and 4.0 and havent lost this all season. Its just too fishy to ignored
Tommorow i'll file the grievance and let you guys know whats the outcome
Thanks for the replies again they being very helpful

tenniscasey · Aug 6, 2012

I went to tennislink and found the player and his results in about three minutes.

His results don't look unreasonable. His first opponent, whom he clobbered 61 61, had played #2 singles most of the season, so stepping up to #1 he would have had a challenge against anyone. His second match, the 75 64, was competitive, and it looks like it should have been. The 61 62 match against your guy was more lopsided than one might expect, but that happens. I lost a competitive match 61 62 recently, that didn't mean the guy who beat me should be bumped up. I was unusually bad that day; it happens.

I sincerely wish you luck with your appeal. I think it'll be a tough one to win, but you never know.

FedHenry · Aug 6, 2012

tenniscasey said:
I went to tennislink and found the player and his results in about three minutes.

His results don't look unreasonable. His first opponent, whom he clobbered 61 61, had played #2 singles most of the season, so stepping up to #1 he would have had a challenge against anyone. His second match, the 75 64, was competitive, and it looks like it should have been. The 61 62 match against your guy was more lopsided than one might expect, but that happens. I lost a competitive match 61 62 recently, that didn't mean the guy who beat me should be bumped up. I was unusually bad that day; it happens.

I sincerely wish you luck with your appeal. I think it'll be a tough one to win, but you never know.

Thanks for not posting the name, my appeal is for the self rating. If he played college tennis here and its a elite athlete, theres no way he is 3.5 in USTA standards. A believe me he isnt a 3.5

tenniscasey · Aug 7, 2012

FedHenry said:
Thanks for not posting the name, my appeal is for the self rating. If he played college tennis here and its a elite athlete, theres no way he is 3.5 in USTA standards. A believe me he isnt a 3.5

I couldn't find a record of him playing any level of college tennis, but I didn't look very hard.

Obviously, if you submit evidence that verifies his college history as part of your appeal, you will help your case a lot. Good luck.

704Pusher · Aug 8, 2012

FedHenry said:
We have a great team and every year (3 years) we advance to sectionals here and we won the first season (3.0)and got a third place at nationals in AZ.

If you are going to sectionals every year, why isn't your entire team getting bumped up?

jmverdugo · Aug 8, 2012

^^ getting to the sectionals means that you have a really good 3.5 team, it doesnt mean you are a 4.0, now if you beat everybody 1 and 2 all your way to the sectionals then you will for sure get bumped up.

g4driver · Aug 8, 2012

704Pusher said:
If you are going to sectionals every year, why isn't your entire team getting bumped up?

Because Captains and players have figured out how to win local, playoff and state matches, without getting bumped.

Win enough to get to the local playoffs, while have guy on the bubble tank a set here and a match or two there to very weak teams.

A local team has been to the SC state playoffs three years straight. Last year 6 self-rated players on the team. 4 of the 6 bumped after state. This year two more S rated guy join the team, but smarter use of these S rated guys. The Captain brought out the big gun in only two single's matches for the most clearcut sandbagger. He only played singles against the two teams that were a threat then he played doubles with the one of the worse players on their team once his team officially made the local playoffs

I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I say this Captain gets an A+ in ratings management.

sundaypunch · Aug 8, 2012

beernutz said:
It is much easier to control how many games you lose as opposed to how many games you win.

So true..........

goober · Aug 8, 2012

g4driver said:
Because Captains and players have figured out how to win local, playoff and state matches, without getting bumped.

Win enough to get to the local playoffs, while have guy on the bubble tank a set here and a match or two there to very weak teams.

A local team has been to the SC state playoffs three years straight. Last year 6 self-rated players on the team. 4 of the 6 bumped after state. This year two more S rated guy join the team, but smarter use of these S rated guys. The Captain brought out the big gun in only two single's matches for the most clearcut sandbagger. He only played singles against the two teams that were a threat then he played doubles with the one of the worse players on their team once his team officially made the local playoffs

I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I say this Captain gets an A+ in ratings management.

Tank jobs are usually obvious and often funny if it weren't so pathetic. One the most laughable cases I remember was a top player from a top team who had the designated turn to lose in singles to my team that week. He was drinking beer before and during the match. Every shot he went for ridiculous winners, tried doing about half a dozen between the leg shots and quickly lost in about 30-40 minutes.

FedHenry · Aug 8, 2012

704Pusher said:
If you are going to sectionals every year, why isn't your entire team getting bumped up?

Almost all my team played 4.0 also too prepare for the bump next year. We won three matches

out of 10
As a captain you need to rotate the line-ups and played your top players with the less able players, if you put your best lineups every time for sure your getting bump

FedHenry · Aug 8, 2012

Updated on the appeal
The appeal was accepted and tomorrow night i have a meeting with the committee to reach a final decision, i think? Have anybody been in one of those meetings

Jack the Hack · Aug 9, 2012

FedHenry said:
Updated on the appeal
The appeal was accepted and tomorrow night i have a meeting with the committee to reach a final decision, i think? Have anybody been in one of those meetings

I'm not sure how your section handles NTRP grievances. In my experience with grievances in the past in my section, you file your appeal information on a form or via an e-mail. The USTA then sends this grievance to the captain of the opposing team and the player that is being filed against for a response. Once the USTA has their response (which they usually copy you on), the grievance committee meets to review the information, verify the claims, and render a decision. In my experience, neither I or the other captain/player have been invited into the committee meeting because we've already made our cases in writing. However, your section may do it differently, especially if this is being fast-tracked because of the playoffs.

JLyon · Aug 9, 2012

goober said:
Tank jobs are usually obvious and often funny if it weren't so pathetic. One the most laughable cases I remember was a top player from a top team who had the designated turn to lose in singles to my team that week. He was drinking beer before and during the match. Every shot he went for ridiculous winners, tried doing about half a dozen between the leg shots and quickly lost in about 30-40 minutes.

In this case fake an injury retire before 7 games have been played, that way it has no effect on the rating, nor does it count as a completed match.

Jack the Hack · Aug 9, 2012

JLyon said:
In this case fake an injury retire before 7 games have been played, that way it has no effect on the rating, nor does it count as a completed match.

That is actually a great idea!

FedHenry · Aug 9, 2012

Jack the Hack said:
I'm not sure how your section handles NTRP grievances. In my experience with grievances in the past in my section, you file your appeal information on a form or via an e-mail. The USTA then sends this grievance to the captain of the opposing team and the player that is being filed against for a response. Once the USTA has their response (which they usually copy you on), the grievance committee meets to review the information, verify the claims, and render a decision. In my experience, neither I or the other captain/player have been invited into the committee meeting because we've already made our cases in writing. However, your section may do it differently, especially if this is being fast-tracked because of the playoffs.

I talked to a friend of mine that had one of these and he said that over there the make a decision and i have to stated my point clearly and their captain too.
In their response he stated that the guy had limited tennis experience but played 3 years of college tennis:-?. That guy doesnt have time to practice tennis with his volleyball career and he still put a whooping on my guy
I think we have a good case here

Jack the Hack · Aug 9, 2012

FedHenry said:
I talked to a friend of mine that had one of these and he said that over there the make a decision and i have to stated my point clearly and their captain too.
In their response he stated that the guy had limited tennis experience but played 3 years of college tennis:-?. That guy doesnt have time to practice tennis with his volleyball career and he still put a whooping on my guy
I think we have a good case here

Yes, indeed... you do have a very good case.

If the other team admits that this player is the same person that played 3 years of college tennis, then I think the grievance is a pretty easy case to rule on. The NTRP self rating guidelines are clear that an unranked college player from NCAA D2 that is under the age of 35 must self rate at 4.5 as a minimum, even if he didn't have a scholarship. If the program he played for was ranked in the top 25, he would have to rate as a 5.5!

If they think that a 4.5 to 5.5 rating is not fair, the proper procedure was for them to self rate at the minimum level, and then file an appeal of the self rating before he ever played a match. Then the USTA could have moved him down based on whatever argument they might have presented. However, to have him self rate at 3.5 and play matches at both 3.5 and 4.0, and go undefeated, I don't see how they can get away with this.

Besides, I don't buy the "he has limited tennis experience" argument when he played 3 years of college tennis. Some D2 tennis programs really suck, and he may have played on one of these squads. However, no matter how bad the tennis program would be at that school, they would still have daily practices for 2+ hours, and play tournaments and dual matches throughout the Fall and Spring. That kind of exposure would move most players beyond the 3.5 level, especially if they had any kind of athletic ability (which this guy sounds like he has in abundance).

Please let us know what the final USTA verdict is. I'd be surprised if they didn't rule in your favor. However, I've seen weird stuff happen before... and if they let this guy continue, I'd be curious to understand their reasoning (since it would appear to go against all of the published USTA regulations).

tenniscasey · Aug 9, 2012

Did the other captain really admit the player had 3 years of college tennis experience?

goober · Aug 9, 2012

JLyon said:
In this case fake an injury retire before 7 games have been played, that way it has no effect on the rating, nor does it count as a completed match.

Well I didn't play it and I was on another court so I only saw bits and parts of it. My player did not realize what was going on and just thought he was playing a bad player. My player also doesn't win much in singles so he was happy to win big in league play. He then told me after the match about all the things that happened and I looked up this guys record and figured out what happened. This is actually an egregious case. Most of the time they make their losses look more legit when playing.

West Coast Ace · Aug 9, 2012

tenniscasey said:
D2 tennis is a rather drastic step down from D1. And he played in it six years ago. The 3.5 rate isnt obviously unreasonable to me.

Wow. Have you seen a 3.5 backhand recently? Or a DII 1st serve?

As usual, @goober and @Orange are the voices of reason around here. This is a blantant, no excuse will do, example of extreme sandbagging.

FedHenry said:
You save my behind with this info. This is going in the appeal Now
So thanks

Let us know what happens.

tenniscasey · Aug 9, 2012

West Coast Ace said:
Wow. Have you seen a 3.5 backhand recently? Or a DII 1st serve?

Have you seen someone who hasn't played tennis in six years recently?

"Wow."

JLyon · Aug 9, 2012

tenniscasey said:
Have you seen someone who hasn't played tennis in six years recently?

"Wow."

I have seen D1 players who have not picked up a frame in 10-15 years come out and take 4.0 and 4.5 players to the woodshed, hit the ball clean and are great except they carry an extra 20 lbs or more.

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