Mixed Doubles Strats?

spot · Sep 13, 2012

NTRPolice said:
About the serving out wide in doubles, there are many counter examples, I just gave up in that thread. Here is a video, where 4 righties are playing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caqcWkkfwqw

Holy crap thats funny. To try and prove your point you not only had to try and find a low angle, amateur, handheld videocamera of players who aren't even good doubles players and where its tough to see where the ball was even served. But even in the video that you HAND PICKED there are still significantly more serves down the middle than there out wide.

That is pretty much the definition of delusional. This is why everyone gets a good laugh out of it when you post.

beernutz · Sep 13, 2012

spot said:
Holy crap thats funny. To try and prove your point you not only had to try and find a low angle, amateur, handheld videocamera of players who aren't even good doubles players and where its tough to see where the ball was even served. But even in the video that you HAND PICKED there are still significantly more serves down the middle than there out wide.

That is pretty much the definition of delusional. This is why everyone gets a good laugh out of it when you post.

He's been in my Ignore file for a while so I don't get to laugh at him until someone else quotes him. I really thought JakeMcClain had set the bar pretty high in the contest for most delusional TW Adult forum poster (the General Pro Player forum is a whole different stratosphere of delusional) but NTRP blows by him like a Porsche past a Yugo.

Cindysphinx · Sep 13, 2012

NTRPPolice,

Are you sure you have the right Cindysphinx?

My 2012 league record is about 21-26. I think that is decent for the year after a bump up. I played 7.5 combo, 8.0 mixed, 4.0 ladies. 21 of these matches were at 1D position. I had no default wins.

It's factual inaccuracies like this that confirm that you will say the first thing that pops into your head.

NTRPPolice:

Who said I only know one 4.0 woman? I just talk about her the most because shes my partner for 7.0, I actually know many people in the tennis community here, many of which are 3.5 and 4.0. I have personal friends who play college (now) and are 4.5's and 5.0. I also know some 2.5's. I know a lot of people. I play tennis 4-6 days a week at all different levels, but my league ranges are limited due to NTRP restrictions. I'm actually excited to play 8.0 next year, heh. I might even skip "C" league and play "B" instead too.

So I said you have playing experience with exactly one 4.0 woman, and this is your reply?

Dude. I do not have to wait for 2013 to play 8.0 mixed. I do not base my remarks on the serving prowess of 4.0 women or the ability of 4.0 men to hit winners off of weak serves off of playing *7.0 mixed.*

Check back with us when you have actually played 8.0 mixed with and against more than one 4.0 woman. Right now, you have as much knowledge of 8.0 mixed as I have of 9.0 mixed -- none.

OrangePower · Sep 13, 2012

NTRPolice said:
You and many other people think im delusional which is fine, but you guys never address my counter points, but instead, just personally attack.

I'm one of those who thinks you're delusional, but I've never meant to attack you personally. If I have, I apologize.

I think you're delusional because you refuse to believe that anyone who disagrees with you knows anything, despite the fact that many people here have been playing for much longer and with more success than you. You just dig yourself deeper and deeper by coming up with increasingly ridiculous counters, rather than accepting that maybe you're wrong.

NTRPolice said:
I have measured my second serves using the FPS method and they are going between 65-85 MPH. I dont have any footage of my first serve (as ive said) but 85 is not me flattening out the serve at all. Those are all quality second serves with large amounts of spin.

You've tried to discredit those that have actually measured serve speeds using radar guns by claiming that it's not comparable to how speeds are measured for pros.

Ok, here are some speeds from an actual pro match, from this year's French Open:
http://www.rolandgarros.com/en_FR/scores/stats/day11/1303ms.html

Gilles Simon has been top 20 for several years, so it's safe to say he is an ok player. His average 1st is 176kmh / 109mph. His average 2nd is 133kmh / 83mph. I admit this is on the slower side for pros, but the man has been pretty successful.

So when you claim you can hit your 2nd at 85mph (or even an average of 75mph), keep in mind that you are saying your 2nd is almost at the level of Simon's. Likewise, when you claim a 110 1st, you're saying your good 1st serves are the same as Simon's ave 1st.

Simon is a long-time pro, a gifted, in-shape athlete, and has had excellent coaching in technique and strength from a very young age.

Can you say all the same for yourself?

The thing is, you just don't seem to realize how good (and rare) it is to be able to serve around 110 1st / 85 2nd on a consistent basis. And you refuse to listen to anyone who tries to tell you that.

kylebarendrick · Sep 13, 2012

What have I learned in this thread? Those of us that have played 8.0 mixed clearly have no idea what 4.0 women can do with a serve or how the opposing men can return them. None of us have played anything other than hit and giggle tennis. Size doesn't matter.

Do I have that about right?

Cindysphinx · Sep 13, 2012

NTRPolice said:
Power is where its at for 4.0 and 8.0 combos.

Nah. I know very few 4.0 women who win through power. They win by putting their opponents in awkward positions to tease out errors and making them hit the ball up for put-away opportunities. They also win by coming to net relentlessly and exploiting the angles available to them. And I know a few 4.0 men and women who win way more than I do just by playing defensively and getting everything back and being crafty.

Somewhere between 3.5 and 4.0 there is an area where people no longer make mistakes and you're required to hit winners to end points.

That is simply not true. 3.5/4.0 players of both genders make a sick number of mistakes.

Every now and then I watch my 4.0 ladies compete in doubles. I come away shaking my head every time. It seems rare that the ball goes over the net three times in a rally. Players botch easy returns. They DF. They miss easy sitters. What they rarely do is hit screaming winners. Way, way more points end with an UE than a winner in 4.0 doubles.

In doubles, this is especially evident. If I see a player who "just gets it back into play" you can bet im going to have a field day at net. The probably wont pass me and even if they do its probably not going to be a winner. If this type of player is spotted (you can tell in the warmup) I would tell my my partner to stay 1up 1back permanently and whoever is at net makes most of the points. No point in bringing both players up because there is going to be a lot of moonballing.

Two at net wins more at 4.0 doubles than 1up 1back. If the opponents are pushers or are defensive, you will do much better having both players at net in a staggered formation, ready to hit their overheads and swing volleys.

So if your approach volleys could use some polishing, you probably should get to work on them. You will definitely need them at 4.0.

jaybear1909 · Sep 13, 2012

NTRPolice said:
I only looked at your 2012 record for which you have nothing but losses except for one default win. You played only 2D and 3D.

Who said I only know one 4.0 woman? I just talk about her the most because shes my partner for 7.0, I actually know many people in the tennis community here, many of which are 3.5 and 4.0. I have personal friends who play college (now) and are 4.5's and 5.0. I also know some 2.5's. I know a lot of people. I play tennis 4-6 days a week at all different levels, but my league ranges are limited due to NTRP restrictions.
I'm actually excited to play 8.0 next year, heh. I might even skip "C" league and play "B" instead too.

You and many other people think im delusional which is fine, but you guys never address my counter points, but instead, just personally attack.

Talk down to those people? You guys are the ones telling me I dont know what im talking about regarding serve speed because your radar gun at your club tells you so.

I pointed out that a improperly used radar guns measurement of a tennis ball can be off 20 mph or more. If you set up the radar unit wrong, it can make a 120 mph serve appear 80 mph if its measuring the racket instead of the ball. If the measurement of the ball is taken after the bounce a 120 mph serve would then be going less than 100. Then, all of a sudden, you guys think that this 120 mph serve is going only 80... that's my point.

-Serves on TV are measured as they come off the racket face. Fact.
-If you set up your radar floor unit at the net or at the opposite baseline, that's wrong because its not going to be measuring the ball as soon as it leaves the face.
-If you're using a handheld unit, you can be measuring the racket instead of the ball.

I have measured my second serves using the FPS method and they are going between 65-85 MPH. I dont have any footage of my first serve (as ive said) but 85 is not me flattening out the serve at all. Those are all quality second serves with large amounts of spin.

Call BS all you want, but I definitely know what im talking about. You guys will see when I make my 3.0 YER video because im definitely going to put some flat ones in there for all you arm chair doubters.

I've decided I can no longer take anything you say seriously. You're speaking purely from theory and do not actually have any experience in the matter. On paper, maybe you're right. But life isn't paper.

chatt_town · Sep 13, 2012

I don't know about this dude. I venture to say that "most" 4.0 men consitantly hit a 40 to 50 first serve...if that when getting it in on a regular basis. I doubt it's much faster than that. A woman only needs to place and get her first serve in to keep the man from being blown off the net. I have won my fair share of 8.0 mixed matches as well as a-1 and a-2 and I know for a fact that my serve is pushing upper 30's if the truth be told. It's about your hands at the net that will make the difference. I know you will say what you would do to it but trust me...in about 6 years or so playing 4.0 there have been plenty that have tried what you think you will do with the serves and I consistently volley it back to your baseline while you are still standing on the baseline thinking you've hit a winner. So the pace of a serve in mixed doubles is not that important...in some cases it can hurt. Many women can get back a fast serve much easier than a spin serve if it isn't placed well. They just need to get their raquet on it.

NTRPolice said:
The problem is that 50 MPH is just too slow. We're also talking 8.0 and potentially 9.0 here, not 7.0 or 6.5. In 8.0, you may go up against a 3.5 girl and a 4.5 guy. What do you think a 4.5 guy is going to do to a 50 mph first serve? What do you think a 5.0 guy is going to do to that serve?

A 50 mph serve can be hit with a forehand no matter where it lands in the box so you cant realistically expect them to play a backhand. Also, at this average level of 4.0, everyone should have a topspin backhand or a "powerful slice" at the least.

A 50 mph serve wont have any movement on it at all. The racket head speed is just too low to put any useful amount of spin on it. The ball wont have any kick unless it clears like 3x the height of the net... which isnt exactly a high percentage serve.

A 4.0 should have two serves already, or one very solid serve they can use twice. If she was playing 7.0 senior+ she can get away with it. In the 8.0 arena that is a huge risk. Her first serve should be going at least 70 (flat) and I know its possible even for a senior lady to hit that. 70+ with spin as a 4.0 girl would be a great serve, but should be able to hit 70 flat at least for a first.

I'm just trying to put this into perspective. 8.0 and doubles. 50 MPH. Sounds dangerous.

You projecting?

50 mph as a first serve is extremely slow especially for MIXED DOUBLES at the 8.0 level or higher.

Not a 4.0 mixed doubles player who is trying to play 8.0.

Say w/e you want about my claims, but I assure you, when I post my YER benchmark video ill be sure to put some serves in there for all you haters. You guys just cant seem to get over the fact that someone who is lower NTRP can possibly be better than you or know what they're talking about. I should have just self rated 4.5 because my serve becomes much faster apparently.

NTRPolice · Sep 14, 2012

I know I said I wasnt going to post in this thread anymore, but I found this video and id like you all to take a look at it.

Here, what would apparently be a "world class 3.5 player" is serving 75-ish mph. For the sake of argument, lets assume that he cant serve any faster, and that his serve can only go slower the second time around.

Now, that serve is certainly not "coming". Are you still so sure that most of the 4.0 women you know are serving 25-35 mph less than what you see here on their first serves? I can see a 50 mph second, but a 50 mph FIRST?

I must apparently know only world class players then, because 25 mph less than what is shown in that video as a first serve is definitely slower than any of the 4.0+ girls that I know.

But, im just guessing, and im only measuring with my eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MmC8HIC44o

Maui19 · Sep 14, 2012

NTRPolice said:
I know I said I wasnt going to post in this thread anymore, but I found this video and id like you all to take a look at it.

Here, what would apparently be a "world class 3.5 player" is serving 75-ish mph. For the sake of argument, lets assume that he cant serve any faster, and that his serve can only go slower the second time around.

Now, that serve is certainly not "coming". Are you still so sure that most of the 4.0 women you know are serving 25-35 mph less than what you see here on their first serves? I can see a 50 mph second, but a 50 mph FIRST?

I must apparently know only world class players then, because 25 mph less than what is shown in that video as a first serve is definitely slower than any of the 4.0+ girls that I know.

But, im just guessing, and im only measuring with my eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MmC8HIC44o

I think it is really hard to tell how fast someone is serving on video (or TV for that matter). I recently saw a former ATP pro serving in a match. He has a legitimate mid-120s first serve. Viewing this in person, I couldn't believe how fast his serve was. It looked waaaaay faster than Isner or Roddick look on TV. This was a real eye opener for me. Then I got a look at serves with a ball speed radar, and even the "hard" serves I saw were ridiculously slow.

So I think the bottom line is that it is very hard to judge serve speeds unless you have seen a lot of measured speeds in person. JMHO.

NTRPolice · Sep 14, 2012

Maui19 said:
I think it is really hard to tell how fast someone is serving on video (or TV for that matter). I recently saw a former ATP pro serving in a match. He has a legitimate mid-120s first serve. Viewing this in person, I couldn't believe how fast his serve was. It looked waaaaay faster than Isner or Roddick look on TV. This was a real eye opener for me. Then I got a look at serves with a ball speed radar, and even the "hard" serves I saw were ridiculously slow.

So I think the bottom line is that it is very hard to judge serve speeds unless you have seen a lot of measured speeds in person. JMHO.

You're right a recorded view like this does not tell all, but, just imagine that ball as it appears in this video going almost 1/3 to 1/2 that speed.

That's a 4.0 womans first serve? Half to a third of what we see on that video?

50 mph is almost a tap over, or a ridiculously slow slice serve that barely caught the strings at full speed.

Mike Y · Sep 14, 2012

NTRPolice said:
I know I said I wasnt going to post in this thread anymore, but I found this video and id like you all to take a look at it.

Here, what would apparently be a "world class 3.5 player" is serving 75-ish mph. For the sake of argument, lets assume that he cant serve any faster, and that his serve can only go slower the second time around.

Now, that serve is certainly not "coming". Are you still so sure that most of the 4.0 women you know are serving 25-35 mph less than what you see here on their first serves? I can see a 50 mph second, but a 50 mph FIRST?

I must apparently know only world class players then, because 25 mph less than what is shown in that video as a first serve is definitely slower than any of the 4.0+ girls that I know.

But, im just guessing, and im only measuring with my eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MmC8HIC44o

Those mphs do not look accurate to me at all. I don't think this is a good way to measure serve speed, the error range is way too high, especially for faster serves. They all look wrong, they all look 15-20 mph slower, but especially the 100 mph serve in the video, that serve doesn't look even close to 100 mph. To use video to measure mph you would need to use super slow motion video with clearly marked measurements to record accurately (i.e. like what you see on Mythbusters, they don't use just any old video to measure velocity).

Mike Y · Sep 14, 2012

NTRPolice said:
You're right a recorded view like this does not tell all, but, just imagine that ball as it appears in this video going almost 1/3 to 1/2 that speed.

That's a 4.0 womans first serve? Half to a third of what we see on that video?

50 mph is almost a tap over, or a ridiculously slow slice serve that barely caught the strings at full speed.

Also, 50 mph is not "almost a tap over", a tap over would be like 30 mph. Imagine a car coming at you at 50mph that you see from a tennis court away. Do you think you could easily get out of the way?

Maui19 · Sep 14, 2012

Whoops--I guess I should have read the post above mine before posting :lol:

NTRPolice · Sep 14, 2012

Mike Y said:
Those mphs do not look accurate to me at all. I don't think this is a good way to measure serve speed, the error range is way too high, especially for faster serves. They all look wrong, they all look 15-20 mph slower, but especially the 100 mph serve in the video, that serve doesn't look even close to 100 mph. To use video to measure mph you would need to use super slow motion video with clearly marked measurements to record accurately (i.e. like what you see on Mythbusters, they don't use just any old video to measure velocity).

Of course they dont look accurate to you, because, like ive been saying since the beginning, when the measure serve speeds on TV they measure them off the face of the racket. In order to get "TB numbers" you have to measure it the closest way to how they measure it on TV... WHICH is NOT using a radar unit on the floor, or having your friend stand to the side of you while you swing.

The way the serves are being measured in the video are using the FPS method, which is more reliable than your radar gun, because you have no idea when your radar gun actually took its reading. With the FPS method you know what frame the ball was struck, what frame the ball hits the court (those are the only two important frames) and based on server position, target, and court dimensions you can get really close to repeating "TV numbers".

I have been saying this since the beginning.

The FPS method is the best way you can measure the speed of your serve closest to how they do on TV. A radar gun/floor unit cannot do this accurately.

Mike Y said:
Also, 50 mph is not "almost a tap over", a tap over would be like 30 mph. Imagine a car coming at you at 50mph that you see from a tennis court away. Do you think you could easily get out of the way?

That's a ridiculous analogy and its clear to me that many of the people on this forum are using this type of faulty reasoning.

1) I have never seen a car come at me at 50 mph and you probably havnt either.

2) If 50 mph was so fast as you think it is, im pretty sure there would be a hell of a lot more 80 mph aces on the pro tour because they wouldnt be able to run around and hit forehands on such blistering speed 80 mph serves...

3) Your analogy assumes we're in outer space so that the ball does not lose velocity over time, also, the ball dosent have to bounce and lose even more speed in your car dodging argument.

Heres some math given your ridiculous analogy...

The distance from one baseline to the other is 78 ft. Let's say that your server is serving in an exactly straight line from one baseline to another. Let's also say that your ball does not lose any velocity over time and that your ball does not have to bounce on the court before I have to hit it.

I would still have 1 whole second to set up and take a swing.

78 ft @ 50 mph = 1.06 seconds of travel time.

As we all know...

1) The ball will lose velocity over time.
2) The ball has to bounce.
3) The server is not serving in an exactly straight line.
4) Even granting you all of the not above realistic circumstances, I would still have a whole solid second to move.
5) The reality of a 50 mph serve in real life would probably give me like 2 whole seconds to move and react to it.

OrangePower · Sep 14, 2012

NTRPolice said:
Of course they dont look accurate to you, because, like ive been saying since the beginning, when the measure serve speeds on TV they measure them off the face of the racket... yada yada yada

I posted actual speeds taken from an actual pro match at the French Open showing official statistics for Gilles Simon.

http://www.rolandgarros.com/en_FR/sc...11/1303ms.html

His average speeds are 109mph 1st, 83mph 2nd.

Of couse you conveniently choose to ignore this since there is no way you can discredit these measurements, and they contradict your worldview.

Instead, you post some youtube video showing speeds obtained by who knows and by what means. Ok then.

NTRPolice · Sep 14, 2012

OrangePower said:
I posted actual speeds taken from an actual pro match at the French Open showing official statistics for Gilles Simon.

http://www.rolandgarros.com/en_FR/sc...11/1303ms.html

His average speeds are 109mph 1st, 83mph 2nd.

Of couse you conveniently choose to ignore this since there is no way you can discredit these measurements, and they contradict your worldview.

Instead, you post some youtube video showing speeds obtained by who knows and by what means. Ok then.

I actually cannot see what you posted because the link is bad.

I didnt "choose to ignore" anything. I just got back in this thread when I found that video. I just didnt care enough to go back and read all the hate mail since I left the thread the first time.

Edit: So I just read your post, but basically all its saying is that "because a top pro can do it, you cant, because you're not a top pro." that is basically worth ignoring. I'm past that point. I've already educated a few people in this thread even if they wont admit it. Seems like most of the people here dont even know how serves are measured on TV because they assume that using a radar unit at their tennis facility was the same thing. I showed that its not.

Being a pro is about all of your game, combined. There are 5.0's who can serve faster than 110. So what? Are you going to tell them that they cant serve over 110 because they're not a world class player? That's pretty much what you're telling me.

Being a pro isnt about a huge forehand or a serve. You cant be that dumb. As I said before, an 85 mph quality serve can take a you a long way. That doesnt mean that its completely impossible for someone to have a better shot, but be ranked lower.

Let me ask you this: So what if I was a 5.0? I could very well have just as good shots as the top 100 players in the world, but if I dont have tour experience, I'm not a 5.5 or higher. See what I mean?

OrangePower · Sep 14, 2012

Back on topic (imagine that!)

Played some mixed last night. I rarely play mixed and this was just a social match, but a serious social match if you know what I mean (egos involved).

Me (4.5) + 3.5 gal vs 4.0 guy and 4.0 gal.

We won 2 and 2. My overall sense is that the team with the strongest person on the court (in this case me), is going to win most of the time, since that person can dominate and cover for the weaker partner, and has little to fear in terms of weapons from the opponents.

Our strategy (not that we thought about it much beforehand) was:

On my serve: Make sure I get 1st serves in, especially to the woman. The 3.5 lady barely got 1 or 2 of my serves back the whole night. I did not get broken at all.

On my partner's serve: Be very active at the net; especially when my partner serves to the woman, poach a lot; when she's serving to the guy, fake a lot. We lost her serve once.

On the opposing guy's serve: Just try get the ball back in play, and then take it from there. Test the woman at net a fair bit, and also we ended up lobbing her a lot. That 4.0 guy did a lot of running backwards to cover lobs. He held serve twice and got broken twice.

On the opposing gal's serve: Don't go for too much on the return, just hit shot angle returns to keep it away from the guy at net. Then attack the net. She only held serve once; when she did hold serve it was because of trying to do too much with the return and missing.

OrangePower · Sep 14, 2012

NTRPolice said:
I actually cannot see what you posted because the link is bad.

Sorry here's the link: I broke it when I cut and paste from an earlier post:
http://www.rolandgarros.com/en_FR/scores/stats/day11/1303ms.html

NTRPolice said:
Edit: So I just read your post, but basically all its saying is that "because a top pro can do it, you cant, because you're not a top pro."

Let me ask you this: So what if I was a 5.0? I could very well have just as good shots as the top 100 players in the world, but if I dont have tour experience, I'm not a 5.5 or higher. See what I mean?

No, you're not getting it. It's not that you can't do it because you're not a top pro.

It's that in order to have that kind of serve, you need several things:
- A large amount of god-given talent
- Be in excellent physical shape, with rigorous strength and flexibilty training
- Have great technique honed through many years of coaching and practice

Pros have all the above. It's possible that a 5.0 or 5.5 would have these also, depending on how early he started playing, what coaching he got, how long he's been playing for, and how dedicated he is.

In your situation, I don't know you, but perhaps you have the first two. However, given how long you've been playing, and also from what i saw on your video, you don't have the third. Maybe you will in several years, who knows. Of course by then you will have a higher rating also.

The other thing I wanted to point out is that the speeds in the link I posted are actual speeds as measured by ATP or whoever does that for the pros. So your whole argument about how speeds are measured etc is irrelevant in this case - if you can't accept these speeds as legitimate, then I don't know what else to say.

NTRPolice · Sep 14, 2012

OrangePower said:
It's that in order to have that kind of serve, you need several things:
- A large amount of god-given talent
- Be in excellent physical shape, with rigorous strength and flexibilty training
- Have great technique honed through many years of coaching and practice

Pros have all the above. It's possible that a 5.0 or 5.5 would have these also, depending on how early he started playing, what coaching he got, how long he's been playing for, and how dedicated he is.

In your situation, I don't know you, but perhaps you have the first two. However, given how long you've been playing, and also from what i saw on your video, you don't have the third. Maybe you will in several years, who knows. Of course by then you will have a higher rating also.

You saw me during a transition phase between my old pinpoint stance to a more open one. It was also a practice video, not a "show TT how fast I can serve" video.

I'm still working out the timing and toss position for my big serve because its way too erratic right now. Because im building my second serve first (like any good player should do) im not really concentrating on wow-ing the TT doubters by playing with my first serve.

I will definitely put some big first serves in my YER video just for you guys, however, I am not nearly concerned by what you guys think about me just to make a video to prove you wrong and tear up my shoulder in the process.

OrangePower said:
The other thing I wanted to point out is that the speeds in the link I posted are actual speeds as measured by ATP or whoever does that for the pros. So your whole argument about how speeds are measured etc is irrelevant in this case - if you can't accept these speeds as legitimate, then I don't know what else to say.

My argument about speeds? Dude. The way ATP measures serves are EXACTLY how i've been describing it. It's all of you guys who are thinking using a radar unit is going to give you ATP measurements which is wrong.

Because you seem to think that my "method" is contrary to the ATP method shows me that you dont understand either. I cannot measure the exact same way the ATP measures because I dont own a Hawkeye, but I can replicate the measurements using the FPS method which your radar units cannot do.

My way is the ATP way for layman who dont own their own Hawkeye. You are not going to get ATP measurements using any sort of radar gun because you wont have proper control over it.

Edit: BTW, "Hawkeye" is not a radar unit. Hawkeye is a system of high FPS cameras. So, im doing exactly as the ATP does, but without the 1m worth of equipment.

Mike Y · Sep 14, 2012

NTRPolice said:
Of course they dont look accurate to you, because, like ive been saying since the beginning, when the measure serve speeds on TV they measure them off the face of the racket. In order to get "TB numbers" you have to measure it the closest way to how they measure it on TV... WHICH is NOT using a radar unit on the floor, or having your friend stand to the side of you while you swing.

The way the serves are being measured in the video are using the FPS method, which is more reliable than your radar gun, because you have no idea when your radar gun actually took its reading. With the FPS method you know what frame the ball was struck, what frame the ball hits the court (those are the only two important frames) and based on server position, target, and court dimensions you can get really close to repeating "TV numbers".

I have been saying this since the beginning.

The FPS method is the best way you can measure the speed of your serve closest to how they do on TV. A radar gun/floor unit cannot do this accurately.

Not true. With a low quality video, you don't get an exact instant that the ball hits the racket, and the exact instant that the ball hits the ground. If it blurs, there there is an error range. Also, without actual marked measurements, you don't know how far the ball traveled. The height that the ball was struck matters. Where the server was, and where the toss was matters. Where in the box the ball hit matters, both the deepness, and the width. Small errors or approximations on these measurements make big differences in what you would calculate the mph to be. It is just not possible to get an accurate measurement of mph from this video or any other low-quality video.

NTRPolice said:
That's a ridiculous analogy and its clear to me that many of the people on this forum are using this type of faulty reasoning.

1) I have never seen a car come at me at 50 mph and you probably havnt either.

You haven't walked alongside a road with cars going 50 mph on it?

NTRPolice said:
2) If 50 mph was so fast as you think it is, im pretty sure there would be a hell of a lot more 80 mph aces on the pro tour because they wouldnt be able to run around and hit forehands on such blistering speed 80 mph serves...

Your analogy assumes we're in outer space so that the ball does not lose velocity over time, also, the ball dosent have to bounce and lose even more speed in your car dodging argument.

Heres some math given your ridiculous analogy...

The distance from one baseline to the other is 78 ft. Let's say that your server is serving in an exactly straight line from one baseline to another. Let's also say that your ball does not lose any velocity over time and that your ball does not have to bounce on the court before I have to hit it.

I would still have 1 whole second to set up and take a swing.

78 ft @ 50 mph = 1.06 seconds of travel time.

As we all know...

1) The ball will lose velocity over time.
2) The ball has to bounce.
3) The server is not serving in an exactly straight line.
4) Even granting you all of the not above realistic circumstances, I would still have a whole solid second to move.
5) The reality of a 50 mph serve in real life would probably give me like 2 whole seconds to move and react to it.

I'm not saying that 50mph is super fast. Just that it is not super-slow, and not "almost a tap-in". Sure, you would be able to get out of the way of a car that is coming toward you from a tennis court away, just like you can likely run around your backhand if the 50 mph serve is going toward your body on the backhand side. But it's not a gimme, it is fast enough that 4.0s would not be able to smoke back the return every time like they would a tap-in serve. They'd miss sometimes, and what they'd likely do is hit a more safe return back.

Mike Y · Sep 14, 2012

OrangePower said:
Back on topic (imagine that!)

Played some mixed last night. I rarely play mixed and this was just a social match, but a serious social match if you know what I mean (egos involved).

Me (4.5) + 3.5 gal vs 4.0 guy and 4.0 gal.

We won 2 and 2. My overall sense is that the team with the strongest person on the court (in this case me), is going to win most of the time, since that person can dominate and cover for the weaker partner, and has little to fear in terms of weapons from the opponents.

I'm surprised you think that. My sense is that it is much easier to win at 8.0 mixed with a 4.0/4.0 combo than it is with a 4.5/3.5 combo. I feel that the team with the weakest player on the court should lose most times. The 4.0/4.0 team can just pick on the 3.5 girl and there is not much you can do about it. Of course, if the 3.5 girl is underrated, then it makes a huge difference, and you'll likely have the edge then. But when I play 8.0 mixed, I feel like I have to play great to win, I must hit winners all the time, while not making any errors. If the ball gets to the 3.5 girl, then the point is over, I likely will not see the ball again. Sure, I almost always hold my serve. When the 3.5 girl serves, it is a little harder to hold. I can be aggressive with my fakes and my volleys, but a good 4.0 guy and good 4.0 girl will be able to keep the ball away from me enough to break on a 3.5 serve. Breaking serve is even harder. A 3.5 girl will have trouble with both serves, and I often have to go for outright winners on my serve returns, because if I just return it cross court, then they hit it to the 3.5 girl, and repeat until she makes an error or they hit a winner.

I'm surprised to hear that you won so easily.

NTRPolice · Sep 14, 2012

I'm going to entertain your post Mike, but you know you're just reaching for anything you can grab at this point.

Mike Y said:
Not true. With a low quality video, you don't get an exact instant that the ball hits the racket, and the exact instant that the ball hits the ground. If it blurs, there there is an error range. Also, without actual marked measurements, you don't know how far the ball traveled. The height that the ball was struck matters. Where the server was, and where the toss was matters. Where in the box the ball hit matters, both the deepness, and the width. Small errors or approximations on these measurements make big differences in what you would calculate the mph to be. It is just not possible to get an accurate measurement of mph from this video or any other low-quality video.

Assuming you have a 30 FPS recording...

You're talking a maximum 7 mph margin of error provided you only know the frame the ball was struck and the frame the ball lands inside the court.

If you can approximate where the servers feet are (T, middle, or sideline) and approximate where the ball landed (T, middle, or sideline) you're talking 4-5 mph margin of error.

If you can approximate how deep the ball landed and how tall the person is (within 1 ft of the service box) and whether or not the person is taller or shorter than 5'9 you can take off 1 mph from that.

If you have a 200+ fps recording you can literally get within 1 mph of the ATP's measurement.

Worst case scenario... you're talking +/- 7 mph MAX. That is by far better than a radar gun taking a reading after the ball bounces, or the radar gun reading your racket instead of the ball.

Mike Y said:
You haven't walked alongside a road with cars going 50 mph on it?

No, I have not walked on the side of a freeway or interstate before. Last I checked, cars are not going 50 mph on anywhere id be walking, thats for sure.

Mike Y said:
I'm not saying that 50mph is super fast. Just that it is not super-slow, and not "almost a tap-in". Sure, you would be able to get out of the way of a car that is coming toward you from a tennis court away, just like you can likely run around your backhand if the 50 mph serve is going toward your body on the backhand side. But it's not a gimme, it is fast enough that 4.0s would not be able to smoke back the return every time like they would a tap-in serve. They'd miss sometimes, and what they'd likely do is hit a more safe return back.

And like I was saying before... a 50 mph serve cannot have any amount of useful spin on it. It's a matter of physics that the ball must be forced into the court with spin for it to have lots of movement.

A 50 mph serve with realistic RPM's on it is barely going to move in the air and its not going to make any sudden movements after it bounces. It's probably going to "check" and bounce straight up because the spin will make the ball fight its momentum and not work with it due to the slow speed.

You're reaching Mike.

spot · Sep 14, 2012

And like I was saying before... a 50 mph serve cannot have any amount of useful spin on it. It's a matter of physics that the ball must be forced into the court with spin for it to have lots of movement.

Do you honestly beleive the jibberish you talk about. Go out and hit and underand serve with lots of sidespin. Watch the ball jump to the side when it hits. You think that somehow this is against the laws of physics!? You think that a dropshot that has so much backspin that it reverses course and goes back over the net in the opposite direction without being touched doesn't have 'any amount of useful spin' because 'physics says the ball must be forced into the court with spin for it to have lots of movement'!?

OrangePower · Sep 14, 2012

Mike Y said:
I'm surprised you think that. My sense is that it is much easier to win at 8.0 mixed with a 4.0/4.0 combo than it is with a 4.5/3.5 combo. I feel that the team with the weakest player on the court should lose most times. The 4.0/4.0 team can just pick on the 3.5 girl and there is not much you can do about it. Of course, if the 3.5 girl is underrated, then it makes a huge difference, and you'll likely have the edge then. But when I play 8.0 mixed, I feel like I have to play great to win, I must hit winners all the time, while not making any errors. If the ball gets to the 3.5 girl, then the point is over, I likely will not see the ball again. Sure, I almost always hold my serve. When the 3.5 girl serves, it is a little harder to hold. I can be aggressive with my fakes and my volleys, but a good 4.0 guy and good 4.0 girl will be able to keep the ball away from me enough to break on a 3.5 serve. Breaking serve is even harder. A 3.5 girl will have trouble with both serves, and I often have to go for outright winners on my serve returns, because if I just return it cross court, then they hit it to the 3.5 girl, and repeat until she makes an error or they hit a winner.

I'm surprised to hear that you won so easily.

My sample size is = 1, so maybe this was not typical.

But I did feel like I could pretty much take over whenever I wanted to. And I didn't feel like I needed to hit winners; just hit shots that would pressure the opponents so that they could not target my 3.5 partner all the time.

As far as breaking the man's serve... my 3.5 partner had an easier time returning the opposing 4.0 man's serve, than the opponent 4.0 lady had returning my serve. Maybe this was just the individuals involved. This 4.0 guy had a decent 1st but was only getting maybe 40% in. His 2nd was just ok and my partner could return it. On the other hand, I was making sure to get 1st serves in (I was hitting spin rather than pace), and the 4.0 lady could hardly return any of them.

Cindysphinx · Sep 14, 2012

If I am understanding NTRPPolice correctly, he is saying you can look at a video and the frames per second will tell you how fast a serve is.

Interesting idea, and one that should be easy to validate. If you had video of Gils Simon serving, you could use FPS to figure out his serve speed using that method. If you got 140 mph or 60 mph or some outlandish number, you would know FPS is inaccurate.

Anyway, I think we have adequately debunked the idea that a 4.0 woman is "pathetic" if she has a weak serve and that 4.0 can crush weak serves, because not one person with first-hand knowledge of the play of 4.0 women says so.

And we have established that I am not on The Mother Of All 2012 Losing Streaks.

My work here is finished.

kylebarendrick · Sep 14, 2012

FWIW, my experience has been that many 4.0 women serve very flat, or even with some underspin, such that the ball stays low and is hard to really drive with any consistency.

escii_35 · Sep 14, 2012

kylebarendrick said:
FWIW, my experience has been that many 4.0 women serve very flat, or even with some underspin, such that the ball stays low and is hard to really drive with any consistency.

Yes, because if they pop it up even I a measly 4.0 guy can crush it. This is why, an alpha 4.5 partnered with a 3.5 gal who has volley and a serve you can't pick on is da' best combo.

LeeD · Sep 14, 2012

Serve is not most 4.0 women's problem. Lack of desire to move, poor strategy, or plain poor movement keeps most of them from moving up.

tennis_ocd · Sep 14, 2012

NTRPolice said:
My argument about speeds? Dude. The way ATP measures serves are EXACTLY how i've been describing it. It's all of you guys who are thinking using a radar unit is going to give you ATP measurements which is wrong.

Because you seem to think that my "method" is contrary to the ATP method shows me that you dont understand either. I cannot measure the exact same way the ATP measures because I dont own a Hawkeye, but I can replicate the measurements using the FPS method which your radar units cannot do.

Call. Do you have a cite for this? Radar is extremely accurate, relatively cheap and is used on virtually all courts; hawkeye too expensive and very limited. Even on Ashe I believe radar records speeds.

Maui19 · Sep 14, 2012

Measuring speed by counting frames per second relies on the accuracy of both the recording equipment (the camera) and the playback software. Both can introduce significant inaccuracies into the equation. Radar designed for the specific application is far more reliable. Unless you don't want it to be, in which case you call pull all kinds of non-sensical arguments our of your arse.

NTRPolice · Sep 14, 2012

spot said:
Do you honestly beleive the jibberish you talk about. Go out and hit and underand serve with lots of sidespin. Watch the ball jump to the side when it hits. You think that somehow this is against the laws of physics!? You think that a dropshot that has so much backspin that it reverses course and goes back over the net in the opposite direction without being touched doesn't have 'any amount of useful spin' because 'physics says the ball must be forced into the court with spin for it to have lots of movement'!?

If this 4.0 lady is serving underhand (basically a dropshot from behind the baseline) I will take it back. But, shes not.

A 50 mph serve is not going to have any significant amount of spin on it unless shes taking a really huge swing and just barely brushing the backside of the ball. She would need EXTREMELY good timing, or a mishit to make the ball move.

Also, this type of serve is going to have more side spin than anything. Side spin serves are really not that effective, they just have a slight natural bend and bounce straight up, unlike any variation of a topspin serve.

tennis_ocd said:
Call. Do you have a cite for this? Radar is extremely accurate, relatively cheap and is used on virtually all courts; hawkeye too expensive and very limited. Even on Ashe I believe radar records speeds.

When a serve speed reading is taken at an ATP event various methods are used to collect that data, one of which is indeed a radar gun.

However, when these speeds are crosschecked and validated for accuracy, they take the raw data obtained by the gun before any processing by the gun. Basically, they use the gun as a high FPS camera for validation, but while its on court it just gives a best guess.

They do this for multiple reasons:

1) They cant setup Hawkeye at every ATP event because its just not cost effective.

2) People want to see serve speeds and most of them are not concerned with accuracy or consistency of the reading.

3) Hawkeye units are just too expensive to have them on every court while a radar gun you can just setup anywhere.

Currently there is no "official" device or any device that meets "Olympic standards", but if thats the angle you're going to play, no one here is right.

TL;DR: Yes, they use radar guns at some ATP events, but not because they're more accurate. They're just easier and cheaper to setup on the large scale of things. When a serve speed is validated they actually dont use any of the radar guns software. They use it more like a camera.

spot · Sep 14, 2012

NTRP- what you said was that a ball going 50 MPH could not have any amount of useful spin by the laws of physics. Do you want to just go ahead and admit you were wrong and making **** up yet again?

NTRPolice · Sep 14, 2012

spot said:
NTRP- what you said was that a ball going 50 MPH could not have any amount of useful spin by the laws of physics. Do you want to just go ahead and admit you were wrong and making **** up yet again?

You're getting confused again spot... I always talk in context and you... just take things out of context to bolster your arguments...

We're talking about a 50 mph serve with spin on it. We're not talking about dropshots or underhand serves because those are just not realistic circumstances.

1) A dropshot from the baseline being used as a serve is not something you're going to see.

2) An underhand serve works mostly because it catches the server off guard.

A 50 mph serve id not going to by anything like that.

Secondly, a 50 mph serve just wont have enough topspin on it to make the ball actually do anything unless the lady is like 13 ft. fall and has racket head speed of 200 mph and barely catches the strings.

A 50 mph flat serve is just going to be a tap over and wont have much spin on it the ball would stay low and thats absolutely best case scenario, provided the returner doesnt have a high topspin forehand. Since most people dont hit with as much spin as they think they do I can see most people making a lot of errors. I can take full swings from balls 1 ft. off the ground and bend them into the court... and thats pretty much what im going to do to this serve. That's assuming I let the ball stay only 1 ft. off the ground on me.

A 50 mph spin serve...

-If it has topspin, at the ball speed its definitely not going to jump on you, its more likely to "bounce"

-If it has backspin/side spin that ball is going to "check" up when it hits the court and its going to lose a lot of momentum. Unlike a high quality topspin serve its not going to get a lot of "action" after the bounce, ESPECIALLY on from a SERVICE MOTION which is what we're talking about in this thread.

If you wanna play dumb and take my comments of of context thats fine. You know that a drop shot or drop volley crazy spin shot is not what this 4.0 lady is serving. She's probably tapping it over with a negligible amount of spin which is what most people 4.0 or under do.

Not everyone "serves" to "get it in" which is basically what a 50 mph serve is. Some people, you know, actually take a good cut at the ball on both their first and second serves.

Edit: And, just educate you a little bit...

When a pro hits a dropshot they're using a lot of the pace and spin from the ball that is moving towards them. When they angle the face of their racket it kills the speed while taking the incoming topspin and turning it to slice spin outgoing.

You have none of those things on a serve where you're tossing the ball to yourself. So assuming that even if a dropshot is "easy" its still going to much way harder to repeat that from the baseline off a ball you tossed to yourself.

ctromano · Sep 15, 2012

I actually had a winning season in mixed this year, this is only my 3rd time playing mixed but my 1st 2 times were 1-0 and 1-1... my partner this year was a 3.0 and she had a cross court forehand and good feet, her serve had no real power or spin but it has good depth. I kept active at net and slammed everything I could get my hands on... the only thing was that once the other team figures out that she had no backhand and was not aggressive at net, they would pick on her and I'd be playing scramble tennis trying to get the ball back into play... but I say keep it simple, hit cross court and get to net, doubles 101!

spot · Sep 15, 2012

NTRP- what you said was that a ball going 50 MPH could not have any amount of useful spin by the laws of physics. Do you want to just go ahead and admit you were wrong and making **** up yet again?

Unlike you I have faced many 4.0 players in league matches. I have faced 4.0 players with slice serves less than 50 mph who had ridiculous spin. You just are simply making up things about things that are disproven in trivial fashion. ANyone who has had a drop shot hit against them that went back over the net without being touched knows that you are completely full of ****.

But thanks for the entertainment value of tying yourself in knots just to avoid having to say that you were wrong and moving on.

tennis tom · Sep 15, 2012

NTRPolice said:
...Dude.

spot said:
... that you are completely full of ****.

The tone of the conversation seems to have ratcheted up a level.

jaybear1909 · Sep 15, 2012

Actually played a guy this morning in my alta match that had a slow second serve (~50). It had plenty of action. It would go up and spin back into the box, but of course we could plant on it because it's slow. We didn't hit many outright winners, and he won majority of his serves because he had amazing hands. We ended up toughing that match out (crappy second set). Very tough to get in a rythm against those type of opponents.

This is B alta, but we play line one. So I'd say it's equivalent to 4.0 Doubles (played both).

dcdoorknob · Sep 15, 2012

It is actually much easier to put heavy spin on the ball (serve or whatever) if you aren't also trying to hit it hard. It's the combination of pace and spin that is difficult to achieve at the same time. It's really much easier to put heavy spin on a 50 mpg serve than a 90mph serve.

Of course no one is arguing this but the one guy who has made a habit of speaking about things he doesn't know much about with an impressive combination of ignorance and self-assurance, so whatever.

corbind · Sep 15, 2012

tennis tom said:
The tone of the conversation seems to have ratcheted up a level.

+1 on that

I've actually been laughing pretty good at the back-and-forth disagreements between a few people here and it's actually decent entertainment as I doze off...

NTRPolice · Sep 15, 2012

Well, seems like many of you cannot see the bigger picture. This is my last chance in this thread of trying to talk any sense into you.

A dropshot's physics is not at all like any realistic serve you will see in a 4.0 who isnt absolutely terrible. If you want to replicate a drop shots physics from on a serve you're going to have to serve underhand.

A 50 mph very low serve isnt going to bounce, but its not going to have lots of movement either. Just imagine like the serve is a ground stroke slice that's landing inside the service box. If you cant punish that, or at least make an aggressive shot off of a ball thats landing that short in the court im sorry.

A 50 mph high bouncing shot will have to travel several times the height of the net to get any action. Most of that balls action is going to be from its natural bounce and not the spin. Why? Because you're not forcing the spin to help fight the gravity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmHeDYQ89zY

You can see here a high quality spin serve. If you think that the action in that ball is just from the spin, you're wrong. The action on that ball is both a combination of the spin as well as the lower trajectory of the balls path.

Think of it this way:

Ever wonder why ridiculously tall players have much higher bouncing balls (regardless of their spin) than short players? The sheer fact that they're hitting more downwards into the court allows them that easier time getting the ball to bounce.

TL;DR

A 50 mph "kick" serve will probably have about as much topspin as a decent lob "winner", and by winner, I mean passing shot, not junk ball 0 topspin into the corner. Lobs bounce high right? Well lobs also travel high, are stuck shoulder height or lower and can land deep in the court.

How high can a 50 mph top spin serve bounce? Answer? Not high unless you're serving underhand or are 13 ft tall.

Not going for a high bouncing ball? Well then the serve is basically a ground stroke slice that lands into the box.

I dont see how you guys think playing a ball like that is ridiculously hard especially when its your opponents first serve.

NTRPolice · Sep 16, 2012

Here is a clip of me serving two second serves. I want you to take a look at this and tell me what you think. I know many of you are anxious to see what my serve looks like from head on.

The original video I could see the ball in every frame. After I cut this video down and processed it though Windows Media Maker it did something to the individual frames. Some frames the ball appeared not to move unlike in the original. I cant upload the original because its like a 38 min clip, but I did go through that specific part and calculated the serve speeds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6G8uYkBgHw

The original video:

First serve = 73 mph
Second serve = 82 mph

The processed video WMV video you are watching:

First serve = 77 mph
Second serve = 77 mph

Now, some things I want you to take into consideration...

This is my second serve while I was still learning it which is why im serving the same ball twice. I want you to think about how fast your 4.0 girls are serving because if their first serve is 25 mph slower than my second serves that I use twice that has to be a wake up all to you.

I cannot possibly see how you guys believe that a 50 mph first serve for a 4.0 is normal, male or female. 50 mph second, sure, I totally believe that. 50 mph first? And now there are people claiming there are men serving like that? Yeah, bottom tier if anything. I played with a diff 4.0 girl today in league and her second serve goes about 50. She's gotta be like 60 years old or close to it. 50 mph for a first serve? No. Not normal. Unless you define "normal" as bottom level play.

spot · Sep 16, 2012

NTRPolice- someday when you start playing 4.0 players on a regular basis you will learn that serves can have other types of spin than topspin.

NTRPolice · Sep 16, 2012

spot said:
NTRPolice- someday when you start playing 4.0 players on a regular basis you will learn that serves can have other types of spin than topspin.

Just for fun, im going to repeat myself one more time.

-For a serve to have "action" it needs to have some type of top spin.
-For a serve to have no topspin means that the ball is not going to do anything after it bounces. It may turn in the air, but its not going to jump. It's going to die once it hits the court.
-We're talking about a regular serve. Not an underhand serve. Not a dropshot. Not someone 10 ft. tall.
-A serve like that will not stay as low as a slice because its not being hit as low as a slice.

Keep trying to belittle me because I have never actually played 8.0 or 4.0 because thats all you have at this point.

I play 4.0's in 7.0, and I play with 4.0's in practice and in social leagues.

And just so you know, I play tennis with 4.0+ players 3 times a week. If you count my lesson with a 5.0 USPTA-1 pro, then make it 4 times, because we do play points every once in a while.

floydcouncil · Sep 16, 2012

NTRPolice said:
Just for fun, im going to repeat myself one more time.

-For a serve to have "action" it needs to have some type of top spin.
-For a serve to have no topspin means that the ball is not going to do anything after it bounces. It may turn in the air, but its not going to jump. It's going to die once it hits the court.
-We're talking about a regular serve. Not an underhand serve. Not a dropshot. Not someone 10 ft. tall.
-A serve like that will not stay as low as a slice because its not being hit as low as a slice.

Keep trying to belittle me because I have never actually played 8.0 or 4.0 because thats all you have at this point.

I play 4.0's in 7.0, and I play with 4.0's in practice and in social leagues.

And just so you know, I play tennis with 4.0+ players 3 times a week. If you count my lesson with a 5.0 USPTA-1 pro, then make it 4 times, because we do play points every once in a while.

Your post above sounds as dumb as you look on the court.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB-Sw6DRQpE&feature=plcp

You obviously haven't seen too many serves with mixture of side/top spin that's heavy.

OrangePower · Sep 16, 2012

NTRPolice said:
Here is a clip of me serving two second serves. I want you to take a look at this and tell me what you think. I know many of you are anxious to see what my serve looks like from head on.

The original video I could see the ball in every frame. After I cut this video down and processed it though Windows Media Maker it did something to the individual frames. Some frames the ball appeared not to move unlike in the original. I cant upload the original because its like a 38 min clip, but I did go through that specific part and calculated the serve speeds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6G8uYkBgHw

The original video:

First serve = 73 mph
Second serve = 82 mph

The processed video WMV video you are watching:

First serve = 77 mph
Second serve = 77 mph

Now, some things I want you to take into consideration...

This is my second serve while I was still learning it which is why im serving the same ball twice. I want you to think about how fast your 4.0 girls are serving because if their first serve is 25 mph slower than my second serves that I use twice that has to be a wake up all to you.

I cannot possibly see how you guys believe that a 50 mph first serve for a 4.0 is normal, male or female. 50 mph second, sure, I totally believe that. 50 mph first? And now there are people claiming there are men serving like that? Yeah, bottom tier if anything. I played with a diff 4.0 girl today in league and her second serve goes about 50. She's gotta be like 60 years old or close to it. 50 mph for a first serve? No. Not normal. Unless you define "normal" as bottom level play.

That second serve looks to me to be around 65mph. Just judging based on how quickly it is coming at the receiver.

Honestly if you think it's 82mph then you are off your rocker. Remember that some pros average in the 80's for their second serves. Does that look anywhere near the same speed as a pro 2nd serve to you?

On the plus side, that is actually a good second serve for the 3.5 / 4.0 level. So I don't know why you are trying to make it out to be more than it really is, when what it is is pretty good.

spot · Sep 16, 2012

NTRPolice said:
Just for fun, im going to repeat myself one more time.

-For a serve to have "action" it needs to have some type of top spin.
.

You keep saying this and making yourself look foolish. Someday you will face a slice serve that goes under 50 MPH that has wicked spin. You can keep saying over and over that its impossible for a serve under 50 MPH to have any sort of useful spin. Someday if you play enough 4.0 players then you will face one and then you will be more than welcome to inform them that their serve violates the laws of physics. It will likely be soemone over the age of 55 who once played college. They very well may still hold their second ball in their off hand while they play and will use only the continental grip. Its easy for me to laugh at you in this conversation because I have personally faced serves that are under 50 mph that have very good spin. You are just making stuff up and someday you will look back at this thread and get a good laugh at yourself just as all of us are getting a good laugh at you now.

You have played against a few 4.0 players. I have played against a couple hundred 4.0 and up rated players. You just have no clue what you are talking about. You can think that its impossible to have a serve that is under 50 MPH with useful spin right up until the time you face it for the first time. Though the way you will tie yourself in knots to avoid just saying you were wrong I think you would probably try and tell them they were cheating.

Why don't you ask your tennis pro to show you a slow slice serve out wide just so you can see how ridiculous you are being in this thread.

spot · Sep 16, 2012

Orangepower- NTRPolice is trying to figure out the speed of the serve the instant it comes off of the racquet- not the speed it travels through the air. He is under the impression that the pros do not use radar guns to measure serve speed.

Cindysphinx · Sep 16, 2012

NTRPolice said:
-For a serve to have "action" it needs to have some type of top spin.
-For a serve to have no topspin means that the ball is not going to do anything after it bounces. It may turn in the air, but its not going to jump. It's going to die once it hits the court.

Really?

To me, a serve has "action" on it if it moves in the air (in other words, isn't linear) due to the spin imparted on it. If a ball has topspin or side-spin or both, the serve has "action" on it. Is this not the universal definition?

I hit a lot of slice serves. These balls have mostly or all side-spin. These serves don't jump up on the bounce. It stays low and moves sideways, to the left.

If I do the thing properly, it is a difficult ball for many people to attack.

If I can hit that serve with as much slice as I can generate and if a radar gun says it goes 50 mph, why is that a problem? Some of the most devastating serves you will see at the 3.5/4.5 level are heavily spun but moving slowly in terms of mph.

If you count my lesson with a 5.0 USPTA-1 pro, then make it 4 times, because we do play points every once in a while.

Oy.

Come on. Even when you play points with a teaching pro, that tells you nothing about how higher-level players play. I hate to break it to you, but your teaching pro is going easy on you. He probably hasn't shifted out of first gear if he is truly a 5.0.

NTRPolice · Sep 16, 2012

OrangePower said:
That second serve looks to me to be around 65mph. Just judging based on how quickly it is coming at the receiver.

Honestly if you think it's 82mph then you are off your rocker. Remember that some pros average in the 80's for their second serves. Does that look anywhere near the same speed as a pro 2nd serve to you?

On the plus side, that is actually a good second serve for the 3.5 / 4.0 level. So I don't know why you are trying to make it out to be more than it really is, when what it is is pretty good.

Well, if you want to say thats 65 mph that's up to you. If that serve was on TV it would display at ~82 mph. There is a lot of action on that ball which you cant see in this video.

The first serve was going low 70's and by the look and sound of it, I probably hit dampener. That second serve is definitely a high end serve and an example of how I want all of my second serves to be. If you think im trying to build a solid 65 mph serve that is entirely up to you. lol.

If you think that second serve is going 65 mph I would love to see you try to hit a winner off it. It's quite common to see 3.5 and 4.0 players just push that serve back especially on their backhand.

Cindysphinx said:
Really?

To me, a serve has "action" on it if it moves in the air (in other words, isn't linear) due to the spin imparted on it. If a ball has topspin or side-spin or both, the serve has "action" on it. Is this not the universal definition?

I hit a lot of slice serves. These balls have mostly or all side-spin. These serves don't jump up on the bounce. It stays low and moves sideways, to the left.

If I do the thing properly, it is a difficult ball for many people to attack.

If I can hit that serve with as much slice as I can generate and if a radar gun says it goes 50 mph, why is that a problem? Some of the most devastating serves you will see at the 3.5/4.5 level are heavily spun but moving slowly in terms of mph.

Oy.

Come on. Even when you play points with a teaching pro, that tells you nothing about how higher-level players play. I hate to break it to you, but your teaching pro is going easy on you. He probably hasn't shifted out of first gear if he is truly a 5.0.

A ball that moves in the air but doesnt skid/jump/turn after it bounces is useless. Anyone who has seen high level serves knows that the BOUNCE is what keeps you guessing, not how the ball moves in the air, lol.

A kick/slice/twist serve all move the same way in the air, but they all bounce dramatically differently.

Think of a frame shot. You're not beaten by a framed ball before the bounce, you're beaten because the ball has spin on it that you cant read and once it bounces it can literally go in almost any direction. A good serves bounce has a similar effect.

My teacher obviously doesnt go all out on my all the time. He does test me by feeding me easy balls to see if I can put them away. He does occasionally ace me or blast winners off my serve... but to add perspective to this, he has tried to blast winners off my serve and miss. That should tell you something.

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