Prisoner of Birth
Banned
Top 5? Top 10? Top 15? Exact number would be nice but even a rough figure is fine.
I'd put him in my top 10, maybe around 7.
I'd put him in my top 10, maybe around 7.
Top 5? Top 10? Top 15? Exact number would be nice but even a rough figure is fine.
I'd put him in my top 10, maybe around 7.
Hope you forgive me: I rank Agassi around place 20.
Agassi's ground stroke shotmaking was top 2-3 all time, IMO. He had the greatest backhand in tennis history and one of the best forehands. But, he didn't have the mobility to put that shotmaking to its best use. Agassi explains that he had a congenital lumbar spine defect that affected his mobility as he got older, which can clearly be seen. It seems to me that Agassi was hitting the ball better than ever in the late 90's, early 2000's, but, his mobility decline offset that. He compensated well by standing in close and cutting off angles. But, against players like Sampras and Federer, Agassi's lack of world class mobility was exposed.
1. Laver
2. Federer
3. Sampras
4. Borg
5. Gonzales
6. Nadal
7. Lendl
8. McEnroe
9. Connors
10. Agassi
PS: I would also say that Agassi's peak level of play might have been higher than Lendl, McEnroe or Connors. But, it was too sporatic, and not sufficiently sustained, to give him full credit for that. Compare Borg, whose career was short, but, it was virtually all peak with a ridiculous winning percentage, especially at the majors with 11 titles out of 27 attempts.
I'd hardly take offensive to a Lavertard listing Federer as second, but you don't have Rosewall in the top ten?
I've him in the top 10. He's got the career slam, something other players besides Fed, Laver, Nadal can't touch !
Agassi's ground stroke shotmaking was top 2-3 all time, IMO. He had the greatest backhand in tennis history and one of the best forehands. But, he didn't have the mobility to put that shotmaking to its best use. Agassi explains that he had a congenital lumbar spine defect that affected his mobility as he got older, which can clearly be seen. It seems to me that Agassi was hitting the ball better than ever in the late 90's, early 2000's, but, his mobility decline offset that. He compensated well by standing in close and cutting off angles. But, against players like Sampras and Federer, Agassi's lack of world class mobility was exposed.
1. Laver
2. Federer
3. Sampras
4. Borg
5. Gonzales
6. Nadal
7. Lendl
8. McEnroe
9. Connors
10. Agassi
PS: I would also say that Agassi's peak level of play might have been higher than Lendl, McEnroe or Connors. But, it was too sporatic, and not sufficiently sustained, to give him full credit for that. Compare Borg, whose career was short, but, it was virtually all peak with a ridiculous winning percentage, especially at the majors with 11 titles out of 27 attempts.
Who would you put Rosewall above?
Top 5? Top 10? Top 15? Exact number would be nice but even a rough figure is fine.
I'd put him in my top 10, maybe around 7.
Top 5? Top 10? Top 15? Exact number would be nice but even a rough figure is fine.
I'd put him in my top 10, maybe around 7.
As far as the open era goes, he is ahead of Wilander, Edberg and Becker, but behind, Connors, Lendl and McEnroe.
My top 10 of all time:
1. Laver
2. Gonzales
3. Federer
4. Sampras
5. Nadal
6. Rosewall
7. Borg
8. Tilden
9. Budge
10. Vines
11. Connors
12. Lendl
13. McEnroe
14. Agassi
15. Djokovic
I could never leave Rosewall outside the top 10. Way too much longevity as a persistent non ending top 2 or 3 player in the World, and a period of a few years as the best player too (which someone like Agassi sadly doesnt have).
I am delighted that Vines is considered top 15.That puts Kodes authomatically in the list.
LOL are you saying Kodes is as good as Vines. Based on what.
My top 10 of all time:
1. Laver
2. Gonzales
3. Federer
4. Sampras
5. Nadal
6. Rosewall
7. Borg
8. Tilden
9. Budge
10. Vines
11. Connors
12. Lendl
13. McEnroe
14. Agassi
15. Djokovic
I could never leave Rosewall outside the top 10. Way too much longevity as a persistent non ending top 2 or 3 player in the World, and a period of a few years as the best player too (which someone like Agassi sadly doesnt have).
In the top ten. I don't include pre-Open era players....I have no base for evaluating Tilden, Pancho, etc. against modern players, so with that in mind, Andre would make the top ten...probably 7-10ish. I always forget someone when I do this, but quickly, it still goes something like this:
1. Federer
2. Laver
3. Sampras
4. Nadal
5. Borg
6. Lendl
7. Agassi
8. McEnroe
9. Conners
10.Becker.
My list is a little iffy down in the second half, but it's "about" right, for the purpose of getting a number for AA.
3 of those must go in: Hoad, Perry, Newcombe and Kramer in, and maybe Sedgman.Vines,Agassi and Djokovic out.rest is OK for me ( although in a slight different order).Agassi can be in the top 15 but no way Vines and Djokovic are.Becker,Wilander or Edberg eat Djokovic for breakfast,lunch and dinner respectively ( up to this moment, at least)
This is my top 20, Agassi is #12.
1. Roger Federer
2. Rod Laver
3. Pete Sampras
4. Bill Tilden
5. Pancho Gonzales
6. Ken Rosewall
7. Rafael Nadal
8. Bjorn Borg
9. Roy Emerson
10. Jimmy Connors
11. Ivan Lendl
12. Andre Agassi
13. Don Budge
14. John McEnroe
15. Ellsworth Vines
16. John Newcombe
17. Boris Becker
18. Mats Wilander
19. Stefan Edberg
20. Henri Cochet
You underrate Vines and Djokovic.
It's interesting that you rank only "modern" players with one exception: Laver. Do you really think that Gonzalez and Rosewall were so much lower than the Rocket?
Not the worst list but you overrate Emerson (as many do) . His 12 major titles don't mean too much. He is the only player in your list who never was No.1!
And you should include Jack Kramer.
And you underrate Becker,Newcombe,Wilander,Edberg and Jan Kodes ( who won the same nº of GS titles as Vines BUT ON MORE VARIETY OF SURFACES, learn history mein lieben kind)
Not a bad list but not an accurate one without Perry,Sedgman and, of course, Lew Hoad out of the top 20.I could understand them out of the top 10, but never out of any top 20 list.
If we talk about best player and not greatest record, Hoad is top 5 and possibly top 3
Seems like tennis started off with Big Bill Tilden, which may be at some point true form the popularity POV, but there are stars like Wilding,Mc Laughlin,Sears,Brookes, Doherty and the Renshaws that, had they had more press and radio coverage, would be much more talked about right now when time comes to elaborate a top 20 all time greats list.it is a pitty.
Do you want to start a discussion like my long quarrels with Lobb and Limpinhitter?
I guess I will not learn in the rest of my life that you accept that Vines won more majors than Jan Kodes and that he won on two surfaces just like Kodes did.
I'm a rather old "kind" with my 63 years.... But you make me feel a bit younger!
I really don't get it. He has no problem trumping up Laver's career based on pro majors, yet totally dismisses them when it comes to Vines, who beat great players like Nüsslein, Tilden, and Perry to win them.
I'd hardly take offensive to a Lavertard listing Federer as second, but you don't have Rosewall in the top ten?
In any case, my list is hardly fixed, but my top ten (with Agassi outside) shapes like this:
1. Federer
2. Laver
3. Sampras
4. Gonzales
5. Borg
6. Nadal
7. Rosewall
8. Lendl
9. Connors
10. McEnroe
11. Agassi
See my above list - above Lendl, Connors, McEnroe, and Agassi.
Carsomyr,
Don't let Limpinhitter make you uncertain regarding your all-time list and Rosewall's place in it
Rosewall was strong enough to lead 10:7 against Laver in big events.
He played many tours instead of tournaments unlike to Connors and Lendl who always played tourneys. Thus he won less tournaments but still at least 137!
Rosewall cannot have a winning head to head against many of your top ten because he did not play against 6 of them and has a negative balance only against players above him in your top ten. He only played Borg when being almost 39...
Rosewall, as pc1 once wrote in this forum, played against the strongest fields ever with Gonzalez, Hoad, Sedgman, Segura, Trabert, Laver, Gimeno, Newcombe, Roche, Ashe, Connors , Borg, Vilas (he stands 2:0 against Guillermo).
As you might have seen in the Limpinhitter/BobbyOne discussion, Limpinhitter tries all tricks to put down Rosewall's greatness...
I can only see putting Rosewall in the top 10 based on his consistency and longevity.
Didn't Rosewall defeat Vilas in 1976 on grass in a tournament I believe was called something like the Tournament of the Americas? I think Rosewall crushed Vilas losing only a few games in three sets. Rosewall was around 42.
Consistency and longevity should both be MAJOR factors in any all time list. Also consider had it been Open tennis then Rosewall would be top 3 all time in slam wins, maybe even leading the list. He would have more slams than Federer who most people have in the top 2 or 3 today. I cant see anyway he is outside the top 10.
Not the worst list but you overrate Emerson (as many do) . His 12 major titles don't mean too much. He is the only player in your list who never was No.1!
And you should include Jack Kramer.
I just can't put someone like Kramer in there and leave Emerson out. Emerson beat Laver in two of those slams finals, that's convincing enough that he's a top level player. Hoad and Kramer I find overrated, would never put them in a top 20 list.
Consistency and longevity should both be MAJOR factors in any all time list. Also consider had it been Open tennis then Rosewall would be top 3 all time in slam wins, maybe even leading the list. He would have more slams than Federer who most people have in the top 2 or 3 today. I cant see anyway he is outside the top 10.