Does Modern Tennis Exist?

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Cheetah

Cheetah

Hall of Fame
luvforty said:
how can a bent arm stay bent if the muscle doesn't contract?
Click to expand...

it depends on how you rotate and swing and your hitting structure. the more important part is keeping your elbow at roughly the same distance from the torso if you have one of those relatively locked bent arm swings. If you have a swing where you lead with the elbow then usually from the elbow to the hand is kept loose and depending on your setup position at the end of takeback etc etc the elbow extension that occurs during the swing will do be pretty much 'pre-determined' and if you have your racquet weight configured to your swing then the lag in the head will pull back on a leading elbow fh which... nvm hard to explain.

in any case there are many types of swings. you can lock you hitting structure with muscle contraction of course but nobody is 'taught' this. At most people are taught early on to 'maintain the bend' where they will consciously use contraction.

Then there is the phenomenon where, as an example, players who play with an extremely loose grip, like i do, tighten the grip at contact automatically w/o thought. There's a reason that happens subconsciously but i forgot the name of the neural process that causes that happen (in regards to the grip tightening on it's own).
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
JohnYandell said:
5263:
So either you don't want to share or you don't know or you don't dare to ask the leader what the yank truly is.
Click to expand...

Or maybe it would be the truth, which is that one particular word that you find
so fascinating, is about as interesting to me as the other clutter you try to
make something out of. Not sure who your talking about as your leader, but
maybe you should ask him since this is so important to You?
I guess if you lose on the big important issues like the outdated unit turn,
stepping in a linear fashion putting weight into the shot, &
hitting across the target line, you have to go after minor points like counting
drills or a word you don't like.
For me these minor issues don't make much of a difference which way they
fall in the end.
 
J

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
5263:

Sorry to have failed you as your former leader. Maybe you should have paid closer attention though and that wouldn't have happened.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
JohnYandell said:
5263:

Sorry to have failed you as your former leader. Maybe you should have paid closer attention though and that wouldn't have happened.
Click to expand...

No, just saw too much instruction from you and your site that did not match
well at all with all the excellent vid on the site.
I should have stayed with the tennisone site after all, but you learn and
make adjustments. :)
 
J

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
5263:

You can always go back. They will welcome you with open arms. BTW whose login you were using to read the Tplayer articles? You never cleared that up for me.
 
treblings

treblings

Hall of Fame
L

luvforty

Banned
Cheetah said:
nvm hard to explain.

tighten the grip at contact
Click to expand...

the subconscious mind is a lot smarter than all the wisdom explained in words in this thread... whenever the conscious mind try to explain the subconscious, it seems always fall short.

that's why mr. wegner's teaching method may have some merit..... but any attempt to apply universally is ridiculous.

the brain knows what muscle to contract, based on a player's intent to hit a bent or straight FH, as well as applying compression to the ball (therefore no matter how loose you start, the grip has to tighten at impact).

yanking may work for some, but may not for others... that's the bottom line.

the assumption that yanking is universally true, or universally false, and the debates with either premise, are all equally ridiculous.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
treblings said:
great clip. what caught my attention is that Federer does a complete shoulder turn while hitting an open stance fh. i think if you want to play like the pros, that would be a good habit to emulate
Click to expand...

Yep, an amazing clip that clearly shows quite a few important items.
You can see how close Fed brings his hand to the ball dragging the racket.

At that point you can see how his hand is right there at the T in Cincinnati &
as he pulls strongly across, his hand moves all the way well past the "i" in
Cincinnati for contact. You can even see how the ball TS is not right over the
top, but has a side aspect to the spin due to the up and across the ball
contact.

Imo what is easy to miss in slow mo like this, is how fast the hand is moving
across at this point. One indication is how little the ball travels during this
time. Even though the ball is moving quickly, it seems almost to sit still,
even more obvious in the vid before with more of a side view.
 
tennis_balla

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
luvforty said:
the subconscious mind is a lot smarter than all the wisdom explained in words in this thread... whenever the conscious mind try to explain the subconscious, it seems always fall short.

that's why mr. wegner's teaching method may have some merit..... but any attempt to apply universally is ridiculous.

the brain knows what muscle to contract, based on a player's intent to hit a bent or straight FH, as well as applying compression to the ball (therefore no matter how loose you start, the grip has to tighten at impact).

yanking may work for some, but may not for others... that's the bottom line.

the assumption that yanking is universally true, or universally false, and the debates with either premise, are all equally ridiculous.
Click to expand...


The brain only knows this if taught properly. Some may learn this on their own, some may not. Most cases its taught by a coach. How you teach it, the methods use, well I guess is what we are debating. :)
 
L

luvforty

Banned
right - we are on the same page... yanking is a teaching method that maybe valid for some students.

nothing more, nothing less.
 
treblings

treblings

Hall of Fame
5263 said:
Yep, an amazing clip that clearly shows quite a few important items.
You can see how close Fed brings his hand to the ball dragging the racket.

At that point you can see how his hand is right there at the T in Cincinnati &
as he pulls strongly across, his hand moves all the way well past the "i" in
Cincinnati for contact. You can even see how the ball TS is not right over the
top, but has a side aspect to the spin due to the up and across the ball
contact.

Imo what is easy to miss in slow mo like this, is how fast the hand is moving
across at this point. One indication is how little the ball travels during this
time. Even though the ball is moving quickly, it seems almost to sit still,
even more obvious in the vid before with more of a side view.
Click to expand...

good analysis, agree with all your points
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
The Fed clip is an inside-out FH, and I said before, what is being described as yanking etc is nothing but the mini-inside-out embedded aspect of Fed's regular forehands which adds side spin. There is no abrupt pulling back or yanking of the racket before contact.
 
J

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
In the Fed clip the racket moves on an arc just as it does in all forehands. There are differences in the exact direction the racket faces of a few degrees that determine shot direction.

On a drive there is no sudden change in the hitting arm structure at or around contact. This is why the idea of pulling or yanking across is not an accurate description and is a poor teaching directive.

What you see is the entire hitting arm structure rotating and this is causing the windshield wiper effect, which is always a matter of degree but is relatively limited here compared to some of his forehands. This is why the rpms on this stroke are around 2000rpm--still a ton but below his averages. It's a power drive.

You can also see how far the racket tip extends outward toward the other side.

Note in the preparation how Roger is making a smooth full unit turn that is continous literally from the start of the motion until the full left arm stretch--despite the fact he is actually using a shuffle step to initiate.

Go frame by frame to about 14-20 frames after contact. Look at his arm--it is extended virtually directly forward from his shoulder joint. He couldn't be reaching any further forward or outward.

Also look at the incredible spacing between his hand and his torso about around 35-40 frames after contact.

Two key points for all to emulate--an image of the full turn and an image of the hand and racket when it reaches the left side of his torso.
 
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J

julian

Hall of Fame
Sppeds of the head of a racket

JohnYandell said:
OK here is what I got from the other thread--thank you suresh:

Wegner wrote:

when you yank the ball to get more power, the racquet first encounters the resistance of the impact with the ball, that is why you see a loss of speed at that moment. But because you are forcing the action with acceleration… the racquet speeds up incredibly and of course you don't intend for the racquet to hit your shoulder or you arm, so you stop it or at least you cease contracting. That is why you see a top player having more than 50 MPH on the racquet head across the body and to his left.

When you pull from the racquet rather than extending, the contraction of biceps and pectorals connects the body weight to the impact. That, together with the acceleration makes for more ball speed. If you extend, you disconnect, and you actually loose power.

Please compare to this Federer clip and see if you see any yanking going on:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/tw/fed/fed_inside_out.html[/QUOTE

Mr Yandell.
Please see
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=6537769 post #198

y direction is the direction perpendicular to the net.
Results quoted are consider more reliable than APAS ones
Click to expand...
 
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M

Mulach

New User
JY

What I see is that his arm is fully extended starting about 100 frames prior to impact to about 30 frames after impact.

The other thing I see is that his feet at prior to impact and his feet after landing post impact are roughly the same distance from the baseline. So there was no forward movement through the stroke.

The lateral movement, however, is tremendous. Roughly when he starts his rotation his head is in line with the E on "Southern". When he lands post impact his head is in line with the line judge's left knee.

So massive lateral displacement with almost no forward displacement. Therefore you can only conclude that the extension is a RESULT of the rotation of the shoulders around the vertical axis. I will say it again - the extension is a result of the rotation. So the teaching point should be rotate, rotate rotate. Not extend (because extend will happen with a good rotation).

Trying to swing and pull across is a fantastic way of achieving rotation. The harder one tries to pull across and rotate the more the legs load prior, the more the feet come off the ground to allow the right hip to clear so that the shoulder and torso can rotate.

The more I look and read the more I tend to agree with some that this big debate is a result of people talking past each other.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
Mulach said:
JY

What I see is that his arm is fully extended starting about 100 frames prior to impact to about 30 frames after impact.

The other thing I see is that his feet at prior to impact and his feet after landing post impact are roughly the same distance from the baseline. So there was no forward movement through the stroke.

The lateral movement, however, is tremendous. Roughly when he starts his rotation his head is in line with the E on "Southern". When he lands post impact his head is in line with the line judge's left knee.

So massive lateral displacement with almost no forward displacement. Therefore you can only conclude that the extension is a RESULT of the rotation of the shoulders around the vertical axis. I will say it again - the extension is a result of the rotation. So the teaching point should be rotate, rotate rotate. Not extend (because extend will happen with a good rotation).

Trying to swing and pull across is a fantastic way of achieving rotation. The harder one tries to pull across and rotate the more the legs load prior, the more the feet come off the ground to allow the right hip to clear so that the shoulder and torso can rotate.

The more I look and read the more I tend to agree with some that this big debate is a result of people talking past each other.
Click to expand...

several good points
 
J

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
Mulach,

Sorry but you aren't seeing what I am seeing in that clip. The torso is rotating. The arm is being lifted from the shoulder muscles. The internal forward rotation of the shoulder is an independent variable. Just stick your arm out in front and try it. There's no forward component.

My main point is this--identify the key positions such as the turn and what I call the outward extension. Feel them physically. Create mental images. Make them in the stroke. Video yourself and verify this.

Although some additional descriptions of the biomechanics can help with the internal mental feelings/images in general it's just a question of making the positions and letting your body do this without verbal thought.

But we need to start with some accurate images.
 
J

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
Suresh,

If only what you said about facts putting myth to rest were true. But facts are not relevant to the goals of the op in the other thread.
 
J

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
Julian,

You should try to summarize those articles in a few simple English sentences.
But yeah, any competent researcher is going to reach similar conclusions.
 
M

Mulach

New User
JohnYandell said:
Mulach,

Sorry but you aren't seeing what I am seeing in that clip. The torso is rotating. The arm is being lifted from the shoulder muscles. The internal forward rotation of the shoulder is an independent variable. Just stick your arm out in front and try it. There's no forward component.....

My main point is this--identify the key positions such as the turn and what I call the outward extension. Feel them physically. Create mental images. Make them in the stroke. Video yourself and verify this.

Although some additional descriptions of the biomechanics can help with the internal mental feelings/images in general it's just a question of making the positions and letting your body do this without verbal thought.

But we need to start with some accurate images.
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more on the accurate image comment. I think the art of teaching is getting the student to work on things that result in approximations to the images. Sometimes that instruction can sound very technically flawed but if it leads to the correct image we shouldn't get hung up on it. Ideally the teacher would know what they are saying is technically flawed. Something like a white lie.

Sorry. I'm not sure I follow the bold part correctly. Can you say more?

This is a video of me working on my FH. I'm the guy in the blue. It isn't a good quality video but maybe you can use it to help me relate to what you are describing.

Happy to get the full critique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PrinEZsMIGI#t=18s
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
Mulach said:
This is a video of me working on my FH. I'm the guy in the blue. It isn't a good quality video but maybe you can use it to help me relate to what you are describing.

Happy to get the full critique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PrinEZsMIGI#t=18s
Click to expand...

Looking pretty good there and clearly working across most of those shots.
The one I noticed that got away from you, high and long, was where you tended
to push out with extra extension towards the target...notice that?
What was that coach trying to prove to you?
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
You are using too much open face. Maybe it is because you are hitting inside out forehands. Not a lot of top spin on those balls. Though side spin may be there.
 
M

Mulach

New User
5263 said:
Looking pretty good there and clearly working across most of those shots.
The one I noticed that got away from you, high and long, was where you tended
to push out with extra extension towards the target...notice that?
What was that coach trying to prove to you?
Click to expand...

Not really trying to prove anything. He was suggesting i focus more on preparation where I wanted to focus on the finish across and weight transfer.

I remember that high long ball. You think it was more of extension vs. rotation that caused it? That is probably likely. I've only recently shifted focus away from extension to across and rotation. Need to keep cleaning that up.
 
M

Mulach

New User
sureshs said:
Don't look at the world with only one point of view. Open face will also cause it. Beware of those who always harp on only one issue due to some agenda.
Click to expand...

Say more about the open face. Are you talking about grip? I play eastern and don't plan on changing that. I'm generally satisfied with the top spin I get when I don't miss. The camera angle is from top of fence so you don't see the full on trajectory.

Regarding your beware comment, do you have full disclosure?
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Mulach said:
Say more about the open face. Are you talking about grip? I play eastern and don't plan on changing that. I'm generally satisfied with the top spin I get when I don't miss. The camera angle is from top of fence so you don't see the full on trajectory.

Regarding your beware comment, do you have full disclosure?
Click to expand...

Just saying that rotation vs extension is one of the many factors. It is a topic of huge debate here, so I don't want somebody getting advice which is just about proving a point or something. It may be the reason, it may not be. But don't get brainwashed.
 
treblings

treblings

Hall of Fame
Mulach said:
Not really trying to prove anything. He was suggesting i focus more on preparation where I wanted to focus on the finish across and weight transfer.

I remember that high long ball. You think it was more of extension vs. rotation that caused it? That is probably likely. I've only recently shifted focus away from extension to across and rotation. Need to keep cleaning that up.
Click to expand...

my best advice to you is listen to and work with your coach who knows you.
don´t expect to much from unknown posters in an internet forum:)
 
J

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
mulach,

It looks pretty good! You are a little late and incomplete on the left arm stretch.

If you want to understand extension and rotation drop you hand at your side. Now raise it and point directly in front of you with your palm on edge and your arm parallel to the ground.

That lifting action is from the shoulder and key in the forehand. Note your hand is now extended an arm's length in front of you.

Now rotate the palm that is on edge in front of you to your left 180 degrees.That rotation is generated from the shoulder as well--in this case the rotation of the upper arm (and the rest of the arm attached to it) from the shoulder joint.

In addition of course, the arm is also swinging on an arc--again from the shoulder on an inside out and then outside in curve from the start of the forward swing to the point of greatest outward reach.

Those are the factors at play I am talking about.
 
arche3

arche3

Banned
JohnYandell said:
mulach,

It looks pretty good! You are a little late and incomplete on the left arm stretch.

If you want to understand extension and rotation drop you hand at your side. Now raise it and point directly in front of you with your palm on edge and your arm parallel to the ground.

That lifting action is from the shoulder and key in the forehand. Note your hand is now extended an arm's length in front of you.

Now rotate the palm that is on edge in front of you to your left 180 degrees.That rotation is generated from the shoulder as well--in this case the rotation of the upper arm (and the rest of the arm attached to it) from the shoulder joint.

In addition of course, the arm is also swinging on an arc--again from the shoulder on an inside out and then outside in curve from the start of the forward swing to the point of greatest outward reach.

Those are the factors at play I am talking about.
Click to expand...

Its actually a good description of the shoulder movement in the fh. But is this what's needed to teach a fh? Seems way complicated for teaching more an academic description. I've watched a lot of fh instructions from all the top coaches and nobody talks like that.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
Mulach said:
Say more about the open face. Are you talking about grip? I play eastern and don't plan on changing that.
Click to expand...

This is part of what the group harping on extension don't get. Yes, Open face
is a real common problem for those working on and focused on extension.
Every degree of racket face error is transmitted directly into the shot, making the
requirements for high precision to avoid the open face issue.

Notice on the shots where you pulled across more or better, that open face problem
didn't pop up; which is very normal. There are a couple things I believe factor
into this. One is when working across the ball, not quite the same precision
required and I think the one of the others is related to the ISR of working across
helps you to not let the face get too open anyway.

They will likely say this isn't true, but as you work with it, you will likely notice
the effects mentioned here.
 
arche3

arche3

Banned
5263 said:
This is part of what the group harping on extension don't get. Yes, Open face
is a real common problem for those working on and focused on extension.
Every degree of racket face error is transmitted directly into the shot, making the
requirements for high precision to avoid the open face issue.

Notice on the shots where you pulled across more or better, that open face problem
didn't pop up; which is very normal. There are a couple things I believe factor
into this. One is when working across the ball, not quite the same precision
required and I think the one of the others is related to the ISR of working across
helps you to not let the face get too open anyway.

They will likely say this isn't true, but as you work with it, you will likely notice
the effects mentioned here.
Click to expand...

OK... I just went in my tennis court in the cold and hit a bucket against the machine for 15min. Still some snow in the corners.... There is something to the isr. Exaggerated it a bit more than usual and it really controls the racket face. Keeps it closed. Add the yank and I'm bombing the fh... Lol'.
 
J

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
Arche,

Thanks for the good words re: the explanation but read my other post--mulach wants to understand the biomechanics which is great and fascinating and can help a certain type of player...BUT

What I said was the key was to master certain positions subverbally--ie, kinesthetically and visually. You can do that with or without the understanding.
 
arche3

arche3

Banned
JohnYandell said:
Arche,

Thanks for the good words re: the explanation but read my other post--mulach wants to understand the biomechanics which is great and fascinating and can help a certain type of player...BUT

What I said was the key was to master certain positions subverbally--ie, kinesthetically and visually. You can do that with or without the understanding.
Click to expand...

Well I never realised I did this. The isr. I'm going to go ape crazy and see what happens if I exaggerate it all over my fh. I'll report back after I actually play someone. I knew I did it on my serve.
 
J

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
yep if so it can be huge... but I call it hand and arm rotation because it's the entire hitting arm structure and racket...
 
arche3

arche3

Banned
JohnYandell said:
yep if so it can be huge... but I call it hand and arm rotation because it's the entire hitting arm structure and racket...
Click to expand...

Yeah i thought isr was your term for it. So I used it. I think you should work the shoulder wording into your coaching. It enforces the whole shoulder arm racket to move as a unit concept as opposed the term forearm pronation which some might do just from the elbow. Kinda like a misunderstood wiper fh. I've seen a lot of those in rec videos.
 
J

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
Arche,

What makes you think I haven't done that? Kidding but there are many articles related to this on Tennisplayer--and examples of transformation for club players using it... I just prefer translate to technical biomechanical terms into English when possible.

but to be technical, there is no significant forearm pronation in either the forehand or the serve. The forearm rotates as part of that larger structural rotation.
 
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S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
treblings said:
my best advice to you is listen to and work with your coach who knows you.
don´t expect to much from unknown posters in an internet forum:)
Click to expand...

The coaches here are not unknown - they are some of the best in the business. You can save a lot of money by just reading the stuff here.
 
arche3

arche3

Banned
JohnYandell said:
Arche,

What makes you think I haven't done that? Kidding but there are many articles related to this on Tennisplayer--and examples of transformation for club players using it... I just prefer translate to technical biomechanical terms into English when possible.

but to be technical, there is no significant forearm pronation in either the forehand or the serve. The forearm rotates as part of that larger structural rotation.
Click to expand...

Its just interesting that I've been doing things without a term for it. Its kinda obvious your forearm can't turn without the shoulders doing it as well. I wonder why all the coaches say forearm pronation?

As an aside I when I was playing as a kid in was taught visually and by feel. Not technical at all. Just a lot of practice.
 
J

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
Arche,

Because the human eye only sees at 20 frames a second and can't in most cases tell very much about the disputed issues in teaching.

Ironically coaches may have themselves learned thru image and feel. Now they have to say something...and the better the player the more likely this is a problem...

So they grasp on to buzzwords and explanations that don't necessarily correspond to what they do or the pros do.

When I started teaching I would actually tape pro matches on vhs and then use the replays to make video print sequences to try to figure out what the hell was actually happening.

30 years later we know a lot lot more through the pursuit of high speed filming.
But the issue is two fold: first what actually happens, and second how to make it happen.

This is one of the biggest problems the modern teaching guys here face--they haven't done the close study and so their descriptions are not accurate and over simplified.

It's possible you could give advice based on inaccurate descriptions and still have it work--but how would you know? Sure Federer probably doesn't need a lot of video input. But I have filmed world class players who developed technical problems and were shocked by what they saw.

It's fundamental I think to do basic research, study it, and develop methodologies based on reality. But the final step is helping players see it and feel it for themselves.
 
5263

5263

G.O.A.T.
JohnYandell said:
This is one of the biggest problems the modern teaching guys here face--they haven't done the close study
Click to expand...

Actually we modern teaching guys don't face any big problems. We have helped
quite a few on this site and our students rave about the instruction, asking
why everyone doesn't teach this way. That is the normal experience for many
modern instructors.
Just as it was a modern guy here who shared with Archie
how working across the target line with isr would help to avoid balls flying on
him like happens with the hit thru 5 balls extension guys. Now the extension guys
don't have a big problem either, because the flaws in their approach keep
you coming back for more lessons and video memberships, to help solve the
obsolesce designed into their approach.
So really, I guess everyone is happy :)
 
J

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
5263:

Yes you have developed a perfect system. So long as reality is not required to validate it's many wonders. Amazing!
 
L

luvforty

Banned
isr - isn't this just a way to avoid flipping.. in other words, the racket face still looking at the same angle as before the impact.

also - why is there nobody talking about the external shoulder rotation on the 1hbh.... or is there?
 
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