Cristophe Rochus: Doping rampant, mentions Nadal and Soderling

marc45

G.O.A.T.
Christophe raises some serious questions. I do tend to think that a lot of tennis players are doping, but i doublt that i could tell which for sure. What do we know for sure?

- Several players have brought attention to doping in tennis, saying that it is a problem.
- ATP has covered up drug use (the Agassi issue)
- Some players were caught out (e.g. the Argentinians: Chela, Coria)

There is a lot of money riding on these players and keeping up the brands that major corporations and advertisers have invested in. I would love to see more testing and a fairer, more transparent system in place even if it meant that one of my favourite players turns out to be a user, but i have little faith in this happening. The best we can hope for is rules that make tennis more skill/talent oriented rather than entirely about stamina, height, recovery time and physical strength (the stuff drugs influence more easily).

I'm not interested in speculating on, or rumours about, which players are doping, because considering how tribal most people are about their avatars/heroes, it won't enlighten us in most cases.

I don't agree with Christophe that it should be legalised and accepted. I want to see real human beings compete and inspire us, not juiced up science projects. I might as well watch formula one where it's more about technology than the driver; i prefer karting.

good post, but i don't know about players saying it's a problem..fed and murray said there should be more testing but did they say that's because they know there is doping...and for those like ex noah how exactly would a player know that about another player?...what evidence do they have?... btw, armstrong had a whole team thing going on...are players doing this with other players or in front of them?

it would be a sad day if one of these top guys were proven to have done it...we are in an historical time and it would crush the record books like the home run race in baseball
 
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90's Clay

Banned
Love me some Nadal... But if Lance is doping, imagine what the hell Nadal was on.. Or Lebron James in basketball.

Ayye.. I would hate to guess. I can't believe its only been Lance as the big name getting the axe from the public and caught..

Take pro sports players in general today and I bet without a doubt we got 90 percent of them doping like crazy.
 
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Relinquis

Hall of Fame
i like following tennis because the players look like normal people. healthy, athletic, trained, talented and determined but still normal looking people. not 2.5 meters tall, 150kg of muscles but never get out of breath with massive veins running across their cheeks and face like in some other sports.

leave that for the comic books please.

Tennis is the sport where the shorter slim guy with the crafty spins and good movement can beat the 6ft9 guy who blasts the ball around. skill matters. i hope it doesn't turn into horse racing. This is depressing.
 

Speranza

Hall of Fame
it's said cesc tatooed 'for sure i wasn't 100%, no ?' on multiple parts of his body (and also 'rosol doesn't exist' on his left buttock, and 'now wasn't the right moment' on the right one).

by the way, about the banana pic, i'm starting to wonder if it's not related to the following one:
04nadal.jpg


EDIT
:) sorry i was a bit slow, i just got it !
it's an banana, of course... :D

Yep!!!!! :)
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
I wonder if the greatest darts athlete of all time, Phil Taylor, is juicing?

Phil Taylor likes Chinese suppers. He likes the juice from chow meins and chop sueys. He's a genius on the dartboard, and one of the best of all time in any sport. As the late, great Sid Waddell once said, if Phil Taylor had been at the Battle of Hastings, the Normans would have stayed home.
 

President

Legend
I ran out of juice about five days ago. Organic steroids that are 50 years ahead of what most of the pro athletes are using, no synthetic dna spiral, undetectable for the testing done on pro athletes entirely.

And I gotta tell you, I feel very ordinary and tired and am feeling all the pain centers that magically go away when you are on the juice. Organic top end, highly expensive juice. And some grey hairs are coming back as well.

Plus now I feel susceptible to all the things that I previously wasn't susceptible to, colds, cancers etc... Its a drag. Oh well, should be replenished shortly.

How does one get their hands on these things?
 
Phil Taylor likes Chinese suppers. He likes the juice from chow meins and chop sueys. He's a genius on the dartboard, and one of the best of all time in any sport. As the late, great Sid Waddell once said, if Phil Taylor had been at the Battle of Hastings, the Normans would have stayed home.

tumblr_lmon9iMOYA1qafrh6.jpg
 

Bjorn99

Hall of Fame
How does one get their hands on these things?


You have to have a friend like I do, who has thousands of inventions that are used by the elite. And as such, they allow him to make a few things for family and friends, that they would NEVER allow to the public. No one would get sick or die.
 

mistik

Hall of Fame
If nobody doped Fed would have never lost a match.:)After all age nearly 32 he is still doing more than good against a dope field.:) At this age he still moves really well and serves well and still ranked 2 because of all natural talent, we shouldnt get suspicious about the guy.:)
Nadal has a physical game,so many people predicted he would have injury problems,but now the guy says ı got injured.The same group of people thinks he isnt injured.:)It is Nadal we have to ask serious questions right ??
Djokovic becomes our family Terminator in 2011 because of gluten free diet,but never mind.

To think one is on dopes the other one totally clean,that what being a stupid fan is
all about.
Fed fans can easily say OHHH he is naturally talented.I can say Nadal is naturally athletic and strong.Djokovic fans can say gluten allergy cost him an early dominance in his career.

I think all of the players creates question marks in your head if you really not just look the issue with fanaticism.If you choose to believe you can also find reasons to believe all of them as well.
 
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Defcon

Hall of Fame
There is a long history of governing bodies in sport covering p drug use when it comes to the top athletes, why should tennis be any different? There's too much money, too much image involved.

Nadal is definitely one of the top suspects, because of his freakish recovery times, the mysterious absences which are conveniently timed, and is he still insisting that he doesn't lift weights ?
 

Clarky21

Banned
There is a long history of governing bodies in sport covering p drug use when it comes to the top athletes, why should tennis be any different? There's too much money, too much image involved.

Nadal is definitely one of the top suspects, because of his freakish recovery times, the mysterious absences which are conveniently timed, and is he still insisting that he doesn't lift weights ?

What about Cvac? Is he not a "top suspect" too? I think he the biggest suspect playing right now, and has been for the past 2 years.
 

dafinch

Banned
But Lance Armstrong didn't fail a doping test. So where's innocent until proven guilty? The system is full of plea bargains, thereby corrupting the whole process. I don't see how any conviction can be safe in such an environment as that. I read in a newspaper yesterday that the USADA wanted to do a deal with Armstrong to allow him to keep his first 5 Tour de France titles. When Armstrong refused all their plea bargains, and then said that he would no longer defend himself, the USADA went for the maximum punishment, and then the USADA had the audacity to act like a drug free sport was their motivation for throwing the whole damn library at Armstrong. Their real reason was to punish Armstrong for resisting all their plea bargains.

So, not only do you seem to be condoning cheating, but also aggressively attacking and threatening to sue those who have the temerity to even accuse you of cheating(which both Armstrong and Jones did). Furthermore, you came to the shocking conclusion that when somebody who is guilty resists plea bargains, he or she tends to get a stiff sentence when they are found guilty. See, that's the whole POINT...:rolleyes:
 

dafinch

Banned
What about Cvac? Is he not a "top suspect" too? I think he the biggest suspect playing right now, and has been for the past 2 years.

Yeah, I'm sure you DO. Has he been fined multiple times for illegal coaching? Has he admitted in print that he is illegally coached? Has he had mysterious injuries after embarrassing losses? No? NICE comparison...
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
So, not only do you seem to be condoning cheating, but also aggressively attacking and threatening to sue those who have the temerity to even accuse you of cheating(which both Armstrong and Jones did). Furthermore, you came to the shocking conclusion that when somebody who is guilty resists plea bargains, he or she tends to get a stiff sentence when they are found guilty. See, that's the whole POINT...:rolleyes:

No, I'm not condoning cheating. I'm condemning a corrupt process that uses plea bargains, which forces the suspect/defendant to admit guilt in return for a "lesser" punishment, and if they refuse to plea bargain (whether they did the alleged crime or not), they get the whole book thrown at them. It gives the prosecution lawyers all the power. It's clear to me that a fair process is impossible when plea bargaining is involved, so any conviction is unsafe.
 

President

Legend
What about Cvac? Is he not a "top suspect" too? I think he the biggest suspect playing right now, and has been for the past 2 years.

I agree. He is an even more obvious doper than Nadal IMO, that gluten thing was a pile of stinky BS. No way his fitness and movement suddenly becomes AMAZING out of nowhere in 1 month, December 2010. Since then he has been a completely different player, thanks to a certain Dr. Igor.
 

Clarky21

Banned
I agree. He is an even more obvious doper than Nadal IMO, that gluten thing was a pile of stinky BS. No way his fitness and movement suddenly becomes AMAZING out of nowhere in 1 month, December 2010. Since then he has been a completely different player, thanks to a certain Dr. Igor.


Totally agree. He is the most obvious case of doping I have ever seen in tennis. Nobody turns their entire career around overnight the way he did with a gluten-free diet. He went from a solid #3 player to a dominant #1, hardly losing any matches since late 2010. It's insulting to our intelligence the bs story he and his camp have tried to sell us for the past 2 years, and it's even more insulting that WADA and the ATP have gone right along with it.
 

Tony48

Legend
Fed fans can easily say OHHH he is naturally talented.I can say Nadal is naturally athletic and strong.Djokovic fans can say gluten allergy cost him an early dominance in his career.

I think all of the players creates question marks in your head if you really not just look the issue with fanaticism.If you choose to believe you can also find reasons to believe all of them as well.

This Lance Armstrong this has really got me thinking about the tennis players. All the top guys: Fed, Nadal, Djokovic, etc.

If any of them were ever caught (or revealed to have been) doping, I would stop watching.
 

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
what does all this have to do about Nadal not playing since his loss at Wimbledon last year, or his ban from Wimbledon in 2009?
 

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
Any solid proof of this that doesn't include phantom practice videos and laptop girls?

the fact he didn't play and was never injured. same as the last 8 months,,,,, or do you seriously think it takes 8 months to get over diarrhea?
 

bjsnider

Hall of Fame
I think there's a lot of doping in all sports that's going undetected, and I think the press would love to take the past decade in tennis and tear it down -- there's nothing juicer than a big scandal, complete with 'should so-and-so be in the hall of fame?' type questions they can continue to write and talk about for many years afterwards.

There's nothing we all dig more than building legends and then tearing them down.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
What is this "whole book thrown at them" horseshit, as if there was no solid evidence?

The evidence in that dossier that got Armstrong banned was circumstantial, mostly based on the testimonies of plea bargained cyclists.

The notion that the enormous number of ex-friends and associates who have implicated Armstrong in juicing-some of them ready to do so under oath, if they haven't done so already-are ALL lying

And what plea bargains were they offered and what were they threatened with if they had refused? The USADA were willing to let Armstrong keep 5 of his Tour de France titles had he plea bargained at one stage, but Armstrong refused, and got a life ban and stripped of all his results back to 1998.

Like I said, the whole process is corrupt and makes a fair trial, so to speak, impossible.

while HE is the Lone Beacon of Truth-not to mention, managing to dominate what is generally thought to be the world's dirtiest sport and do so while being "clean," is absolutely, completely ludicrous-and, some of that evidence indicates that he did, indeed, test positive, but greased the appropriate palms to keep it quiet, making your position even more bankrupt.

Sorry, but the USADA were willing to let Armstrong to keep 5 Tours, if only he had plea bargained. Had Armstrong accepted, the USADA would have either buried evidence of Armstrong's long-term doping or stopped going crazy with their plea bargains on other cyclists to get Armstrong banned for life. As I said, a corrupt process.
 

ctoth666

Banned
Honestly, I think testing should be dropped altogether. All of these doping scandals are nonsense. We know athletes are enhancing their performance and they always will, so why even have the policy to begin with? To live up to some BS code of morality? It's like the same nonsense as the Wars on Drugs in general: what's with the stigma? It's not a level playing field anyway, especially when you consider how much of a better natural athlete some tennis players are than others. Genetic advantages can be pretty steep.

I say save some money and stop testing altogether. It apparently isn't even effective...
 
N

nikdom

Guest
Mustard, forget the legal process. Here is a simple question to ponder - did Armstrong cheat by taking illegal substances or not? The man himself is now confessing to have done exactly that.

I think you take denial and delusion to another level. Your long posts arguing everything from atp's new time violation rules to Nadal's time wasting tactics are one thing, but this takes the cake.
 

xan

Hall of Fame
Totally agree. He is the most obvious case of doping I have ever seen in tennis. Nobody turns their entire career around overnight the way he did with a gluten-free diet. He went from a solid #3 player to a dominant #1, hardly losing any matches since late 2010. It's insulting to our intelligence the bs story he and his camp have tried to sell us for the past 2 years, and it's even more insulting that WADA and the ATP have gone right along with it.

its insulting you know nothing about gluten priblems in the first place yet your yackity yack doesn't seize. ever.
its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, then speaking and removing all doubt. fits you perfectly.
 
Mustard, you are known for not answering the incovinient questions, or, in case, that your supposed "credibility" as a poster is in danger, to resort to fanboyish or straightforward absurd answers, but I will try once again to talk to you with a logic and see where we get.


The evidence in that dossier that got Armstrong banned was circumstantial, mostly based on the testimonies of plea bargained cyclists.

Please, do provide the said dossier.

And explain the word "mostly". Who are the others/ what are are the other facts, that point to Armstrong as a doper? Who decided, that the testimonies from his teammates are the deciding factor in his conviction?


Sorry, but the USADA were willing to let Armstrong to keep 5 Tours, if only he had plea bargained. Had Armstrong accepted, the USADA would have either buried evidence of Armstrong's long-term doping or stopped going crazy with their plea bargains on other cyclists to get Armstrong banned for life. As I said, a corrupt process.

Proof?

And, the most recent question: Why did Armstrong admit to have doped, if innocent? He already have been stripped of all his results.
 
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mmk

Hall of Fame
There was a rumour going around the mens dressing room a few weeks back now that apparently additives in lindor chocolate truffles make you hyper. Now im not 100% sure on that but it makes you wonder.

If that were the case, I'd be hyper-hyper. I loves me some lindor.
 

Vrad

Professional
While it is certainly possible Federer is doping, of the top players, he is the least likely.

1) He never had a massive jump in his quality of play. Federer's play was acclaimed even as a teen. He actually won a slam later than most expected, and it was clear the major reason was a mental change (Federer would drop games as a teen, because he felt a call went against him). I haven't heard of any illegal drugs which are known to make you more calm and focused (and if they exist, maybe they shouldn't be illegal).

2) Doping allows you to push your body further than it is naturally capable. This takes a toll on your muscles, ligaments, and bones. The fact that Federer has been able to go so many years without ever missing a grand slam, or retiring from games, indicates he rarely ever pushes his body beyond its natural physical limits.

3) His style of play is such, he really doesn't need the doping. He isn't close to the strongest player on court, or the player with the most stamina. Of course, just because he doesn't need to be doping, doesn't mean he isn't. What it does mean is that a rational individual would be less likely to suspect him than other player go show superhuman fears of strength and stamina.
4) He has consistently and constantly pushed for stricter rules against doping. Unlike other top players, he has never complained about anti-doping efforts, and has frequently said that they don't go far enough.

Again, I don't think any modern tennis professional is above suspicion of doping. But Federer is possibly one of the least likely players in the top 10 to be doping.
 

SLD76

G.O.A.T.
But Lance Armstrong didn't fail a doping test. So where's innocent until proven guilty? The system is full of plea bargains, thereby corrupting the whole process. I don't see how any conviction can be safe in such an environment as that. I read in a newspaper yesterday that the USADA wanted to do a deal with Armstrong to allow him to keep his first 5 Tour de France titles. When Armstrong refused all their plea bargains, and then said that he would no longer defend himself, the USADA went for the maximum punishment, and then the USADA had the audacity to act like a drug free sport was their motivation for throwing the whole damn library at Armstrong. Their real reason was to punish Armstrong for resisting all their plea bargains.

you are seriously deluded and shameless.

man, there isnt sand deep enough to bury your head in when it comes to athletes you like, I suppose.
 

SLD76

G.O.A.T.
With the plea bargaining system, how do we know that someone hasn't said to Armstrong "admit to doping, or you'll be in jail and bankrupt etc."? The fact is, we don't know, as plea bargaining corrupts the whole process. It is blackmail, where the blackmailers have all the power.

If you don't even fail a drugs test according to the laws of cycling, why are you even treated as guilty in the first place?

why would admitting to oprah on a tv show have any impact on the legal justice system. you do realize that if armstrong had to "confess" it would be to proper authorities in exchange for a lack of chargers and something like that would have been reported to the media long ago, right?

thats just stupid and you are beyond clutching at straws.

pathetic.
 
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mmk

Hall of Fame
While it is certainly possible Federer is doping, of the top players, he is the least likely.

1) He never had a massive jump in his quality of play. Federer's play was acclaimed even as a teen. He actually won a slam later than most expected, and it was clear the major reason was a mental change (Federer would drop games as a teen, because he felt a call went against him). I haven't heard of any illegal drugs which are known to make you more calm and focused (and if they exist, maybe they shouldn't be illegal)......

Well, as those who have kids with ADHD can attest, there are drugs which can make you more calm and focused, e.g., adderall. ADD/ADHD drugs aren't necessarily illegal, but they are controlled substances. I don't know what the ITF rules are on these drugs, but in other sports they are legal if there is a prescription. However, I doubt that Fed is taking any such drug.
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
The evidence in that dossier that got Armstrong banned was circumstantial, mostly based on the testimonies of plea bargained cyclists.



And what plea bargains were they offered and what were they threatened with if they had refused? The USADA were willing to let Armstrong keep 5 of his Tour de France titles had he plea bargained at one stage, but Armstrong refused, and got a life ban and stripped of all his results back to 1998.

Like I said, the whole process is corrupt and makes a fair trial, so to speak, impossible.

Oh my God Mustard, you are still denying and trying to come up with reasons to defend Armstrong? Just stop and admit defeat. You are looking like an absolute lunatic with this denial BS. You were wrong. Say it to yourself 20 times so you begin to believe it. ;)
 

Magnetite

Professional
History repeats itself. This is exactly how it was in cycling. In the beginning no one believed or wanted to believe it. Specially not the ardent fangirls. But smart guys like Rochus and me, we see through the clouds. Nadal is probably the main culprit. Sod mentioning surprised me a bit though.

That's ridiculous. Everyone with half a brain has known for eons that cycling has rampant doping.

Same with baseball and the NFL.

Tennis I'm not so sure about, because the guys aren't ridiculously huge, but their endurance, and ability to recover is somewhat suspect.

They are taking something, but whether it's illegal or not is a different matter.
 
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SLD76

G.O.A.T.
Totally agree. He is the most obvious case of doping I have ever seen in tennis. Nobody turns their entire career around overnight the way he did with a gluten-free diet. He went from a solid #3 player to a dominant #1, hardly losing any matches since late 2010. It's insulting to our intelligence the bs story he and his camp have tried to sell us for the past 2 years, and it's even more insulting that WADA and the ATP have gone right along with it.

tee hee. I still remember last year's AO trophy ceremony where nadal was congratulating djoker and said something "i want to congratulate your team, they are doing an amazing job"

man, the look, just for a second or two, that djoker shot rafa was pure ice cold like "watch it, buddy" LOL


of course clarky will disagree, but it especially amused me. Like one doper saying to another "damn son, your docs blew mine out the water this year" lol.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
On Testing:
Gilles Simon: "I think this system is demanding but necessary to ensure that everybody can be tested anytime."

Mahesh Bhupathi: "It is no fun. But to fight cheats I will do it. I am already giving my daily whereabouts to the association."

Mike Bryan: "It's a little strict, but it's the same for everyone. It's gonna really clean up our sport. There will be no questions in anyone's head if anyone's cheating."

Roger Federer: "I feel like this is how you’re going to catch them, right? You’re not going to catch them ringing them up and saying, 'Look, I would like to test you maybe in two days.' The guy’s cheating and they’re smart, right? It’s an hour a day. I know it’s a pain, but I would like it to be a clean sport, and that’s why I’m OK with it."

Andy Murray: "These new rules are so draconian that it makes it almost impossible to live a normal life."

Rafael Nadal: "It's not fair to have persecution like that...They make you feel like a criminal."

All quotes from tennishasasteriodproblem.blogspot.com
 

Rocky89

Professional
While it is certainly possible Federer is doping, of the top players, he is the least likely.

1) He never had a massive jump in his quality of play. Federer's play was acclaimed even as a teen. He actually won a slam later than most expected, and it was clear the major reason was a mental change (Federer would drop games as a teen, because he felt a call went against him). I haven't heard of any illegal drugs which are known to make you more calm and focused (and if they exist, maybe they shouldn't be illegal).

2) Doping allows you to push your body further than it is naturally capable. This takes a toll on your muscles, ligaments, and bones. The fact that Federer has been able to go so many years without ever missing a grand slam, or retiring from games, indicates he rarely ever pushes his body beyond its natural physical limits.

3) His style of play is such, he really doesn't need the doping. He isn't close to the strongest player on court, or the player with the most stamina. Of course, just because he doesn't need to be doping, doesn't mean he isn't. What it does mean is that a rational individual would be less likely to suspect him than other player go show superhuman fears of strength and stamina.
4) He has consistently and constantly pushed for stricter rules against doping. Unlike other top players, he has never complained about anti-doping efforts, and has frequently said that they don't go far enough.

Again, I don't think any modern tennis professional is above suspicion of doping. But Federer is possibly one of the least likely players in the top 10 to be doping.


Please, he is just as likely as all the other guys. Everyone benefits from doping, regardless of game style.
 

Fiji

Legend
Federer is the least likely to be doping. His progression was not overnight.

The suspicious ones are those who went from zero to hero overnight like Nadal who won a mm title in 2004 and then in 2005 won 11 titles and Djokovic who went from winning one or two mm titles in 2010 to winning almost all the big titles, 10 of them, in 2011.
 
That's ridiculous. Everyone with half a brain has known for eons that cycling has rampant doping.

Same with baseball and the NFL.

Tennis I'm not so sure about, because the guys aren't ridiculously huge, but their endurance, and ability to recover is somewhat suspect.

They are taking something, but whether it's illegal or not is a different matter.

It's not ridiculous. Even just 7 or 8 years ago, on the cycling forums I'd say everyone is doping and there would be droves of people defending the sport as 99% clean and the few caught were exceptions. Only recently are people finally beginning to accept that the sport is very largely tainted. Mention sports like tennis, NFL, NBA, and people's mentality will be where it was a decade ago. But the truth is circulating under the public's noses.
 
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