My balls not heavy? (video included)

Cheetah

Cheetah

Hall of Fame
You lack racquet head speed thus the shots are not heavy and have no pace.

But your form looks very good for sure.
 
D

dominikk1985

Legend
latestgood said:
Cheetah,

How would I go and increase my racquet head speed?
Is there a drill I can do?

Thank you!
Click to expand...

push off the back leg and rotate the hips hard ahead of the arm. swing harder

However after only 7 months (looks good for that time) I would worry more about footwork, balance and making clean contact rather than hitting hard. this will come later.
 
TheCheese

TheCheese

Professional
latestgood said:
Cheetah,

How would I go and increase my racquet head speed?
Is there a drill I can do?

Thank you!
Click to expand...

Is that the fastest you can swing? Just curious. You seem like a fit guy, I'd imagine you could probably swing faster and it'd just be a matter of practicing that until you're just as consistent as you are right now.
 
N

NLBwell

Legend
Only 7 months and you are already trying to turn him into a TW racket geek? Let him keep his innocence at least a little while longer.
 
C

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
The book Technique Development in Tennis Stroke Production(2009), B. Elliott, M. Reid, M.Crespo, breaks down the stroke components.

For added pace the stretch shortening cycle is utilized.

Body turn adds to forehand pace if it is done properly. A good motion includes use of the stretch shortening cycle in the backswing and forward swing. Search: stretch shortening cycle

You seem to have body turn. But if you don't use enough SSC for speed in the motion, you could probably do a motion that appears in the video to be about the same, only slower. Elliott also describes clearly that the shoulder turn goes farther back than the hip turn and that trunk stretch is part of the SSC. See Djkovic forehand in a match.

Also, in your video your racket is not as high in comparison to strong pro forehands. Theirs are often above the head, yours much lower.
See all forehand analyses especially for higher takeback in this TennisOxygen series of videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFY3GZV0gEE
http://www.youtube.com/user/xstf/videos

This TW thread had some related discussion and links
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=423053

Elliott's book is an excellent tennis stroke reference based on scientific analysis of the strokes using high speed imaging and other observations. It sums up many research findings for current strokes.
Only available through ITF I believe-
https://store.itftennis.com/product.asp?pid=86&previousscript=/home.asp
 
Last edited:
10isfreak

10isfreak

Semi-Pro
Cheetah said:
You lack racquet head speed thus the shots are not heavy and have no pace.

But your form looks very good for sure.
Click to expand...

It does look neat and I feel like he can hit with some consistency.

I'm wondering about his take back... it's a small detail, but I think it could help him feel freer to swing at the ball.

If you carefully watch the best forehands on ATP tour (the top four, namely) or what I personally think is the best forehand on the WTA tour (Stosur) versus the commoners, you realize there's a major difference. Some accomplish their take back by more or less dropping their racket and show a rather clear pronation whereas others rotate their forearm, rather showing a supinated forearm. Amateur-wise, just to show how it applies to our lives as mere mortals, Aimr75 shows a pronated take back whereas the OP shows a supinated take back -- it would be better to find more similar players to compare, but that's just to illustrate the idea, just to show what it looks like. I could do it for anyone willing to figure it out -- or less, just do it yourself and look at where the knuckles point when the player is about to swing forward.

The first style I highlighted (pronation) is highly correlated with the heaviest forehands on both tours. There are exceptions such as flat hitters like Berdych who use it, but don't generate a ridiculous amount of spin like the Big Four, Roddick, Stosur, etc.

If I do have a certainty regarding tennis is that your body position when you are about to swing is probably the most important thing there is... Maybe it would turn out to yield improvements for him.
 
anubis

anubis

Hall of Fame
You've only been playing for 7 months? You look great, IMO. Much farther along than most are @ that amount of experience. Don't rush it. You've only been playing for 7 months, you have a looong time to improve.

Racquet head speed is your issue, but it's not something that you need to deal with right now I think. Just focus on the basics, your footwork, preparation, and attacking the ball early. Racquet head speed comes with experience and confidence. It's not something you can learn overnight. It's developed slowly with the proper fundamentals.

If you simply sped up your head speed right now, your balls would soar over the fence. With proper training, you can bring up your game -- all facets of your game -- a little bit at a time.
 
C

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
10isfreak said:
.......................................
I'm wondering about his take back... it's a small detail, but I think it could help him feel freer to swing at the ball.

If you carefully watch the best forehands on ATP tour (the top four, namely) or what I personally think is the best forehand on the WTA tour (Stosur) versus the commoners, you realize there's a major difference. Some accomplish their take back by more or less dropping their racket and show a rather clear pronation whereas others rotate their forearm, rather showing a supinated forearm. ....................................................
...................................................................................
...........................................
Click to expand...

What do you mean by dropping the racket? Could you point it out on one of these videos? I see the rackets winding up higher than the head in these videos from reply #12.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFY3GZV0gEE
 
10isfreak

10isfreak

Semi-Pro
Chas Tennis said:
What do you mean by dropping the racket? Could you point it out on one of these videos? I see the rackets winding up higher than the head in these videos from reply #12.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFY3GZV0gEE
Click to expand...

They begin with the racket higher, but when I compare Federer's or Nadal's forehand to the average forehand on the tour, I feel like their take back is less circular, more like a racket drop. But, that's an illustration or a visual cue, if you prefer; the point was to bring people get an idea of what this type of forehand look like since some might not be very comfortable using pronation/supination, extension/flexion, radial deviation/ulnar deviation, etc.

To me, personally, it feels like the racket just drops down. However, that's my perception and it's heavily influenced by my personal experience and, unfortunately, it can't be an actual illustration for everyone.


Regardless, the important point was pronation versus supination during the take back... Again, "take back" is also not clear, but I would say that when both hands split (usually, players keep both hands together before until they are ready to swing; many, for instance, will hold the throat with their off hand), the take back begins. As for when to identify this feature, it's mainly by the end of the take back: as the player is just about to swing.
 
A

ATP100

Professional
DO NOT CHANGE ANYTHING, JUST KEEP PRACTICING.

Take another video in a couple months, than change 1 thing at a time.
 
N

NLBwell

Legend
After actually watching the video, I'm agreeing with ATP100. Don't think about specific changes to your forehand at this point. There are no major problems. Just practice a lot with the idea of learning what you have to do to hit harder and lower, or put more spin on the ball, or loop the ball higher, or hit a short angle, etc. Don't go overboard and start flailing about, but work on specific improvements. Takebacks, racket head drop, etc. should develop naturally as you learn what you must to to achieve these things.
Post another video or, even better, have a pro look at your strokes in a couple months and see where you are then.
 
TennisA

TennisA

Rookie
I think the main change you need to make is what your legs are doing. Right now, your body faces the court when you hit your forehands. That, and you aren't bending your legs much, either. You should also start practicing split stepping a bit to help with movement. Other than that, I think your groundstrokes are excellent for only playing 7 months.
 
C

corners

Legend
latestgood said:
Hello,

I've been play tennis for 7 months now and while I do have okay forehand, I feel that my shots are heavy. This is very puzzling because many people compliment my form but I feel that there's no real pace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySw8qYn6DIs&feature=youtu.be
Click to expand...

I agree with the others - you look like you've got a really nice natural and relaxed forehand. I wouldn't worry about your ball quality right now. Just focus on your movement and timing. If think if you start trying to hit "hard" right now you might start tightening up and muscling the shot. Unlike most beginners you are not doing that right now, which is great. You might get some short-term gains by muscling the ball but in the long-run you'll lose the best parts of your current form - the relaxation and ease of your hitting. That relaxation and ease will become easy power over time. I think you just need to hit lots more. Focus on timing, shot trajectory, placement and spin. The heavy ball and the fast racquet will come with time.

Just my two cents after seeing lots of video of players more advanced than you but with very stiff, choppy strokes. Keep the fluidity you have now, no matter what.
 
C

corners

Legend
10isfreak said:
They begin with the racket higher, but when I compare Federer's or Nadal's forehand to the average forehand on the tour, I feel like their take back is less circular, more like a racket drop. But, that's an illustration or a visual cue, if you prefer; the point was to bring people get an idea of what this type of forehand look like since some might not be very comfortable using pronation/supination, extension/flexion, radial deviation/ulnar deviation, etc.

To me, personally, it feels like the racket just drops down. However, that's my perception and it's heavily influenced by my personal experience and, unfortunately, it can't be an actual illustration for everyone.


Regardless, the important point was pronation versus supination during the take back... Again, "take back" is also not clear, but I would say that when both hands split (usually, players keep both hands together before until they are ready to swing; many, for instance, will hold the throat with their off hand), the take back begins. As for when to identify this feature, it's mainly by the end of the take back: as the player is just about to swing.
Click to expand...

I know exactly where you are coming from with the pronated vs. supinated takeback. But don't you think this absolute beginner has a nice looking forehand right now? He might not have the optimal takeback that will allow him to develop one of the greatest forehands of all time, but he does not currently have a technique flaw. I wouldn't change anything right now. Nothing. I think he's lucky to be where he is - a rank beginner with solid, relaxed and repeatable technique. It can only get better from here.

But if he goes back and starts tweaking his backswing at this point it could set him back months or years. And he can always figure out the pronated takeback trick later on if he wants. I just don't think this is the thread for that.
 
Cheetah

Cheetah

Hall of Fame
Just keep practicing. The rhs will come. You already have a lot of the basic pre-requisites in place for that. If you start messing with your swing technique now you can kiss that nice form goodbye.

I'd recommend working on developing footwork.
 
L

latestgood

New User
Thank you for your feedback!

By the way, when I play club players, they tell me that my balls too loopy (too much net clearance). I thought whole point of top spin is to increase the margin of error.
 
C

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I find that my top spin is mostly not heavy enough to cause problems and often bounces and sets up nice for the bigger hitting opponents. For angles and deeper shots it causes trouble and is an asset. I need heavier average pace topspin also.

BTW - Have you been able to find some organized tennis leagues - tennis club, USTA, etc where you play different people? It is good to see the strokes that a variety of people use.
 
Last edited:
ace_pace

ace_pace

Rookie
Title made me lol.

Heres some advice that I found quite useful. Rather than copy a pro players stroke, copy their fundamentals i.e. footwork and shoulder turn etc.
 
psv255

psv255

Professional
latestgood said:
By the way, when I play club players, they tell me that my balls too loopy (too much net clearance). I thought whole point of top spin is to increase the margin of error.
Click to expand...

No such thing as too loopy a ball, and having seen your video, your ball isn't all that high; it's just something they may not like returning and complain about.

The form is excellent for 7 months; relaxed, fluid swing utilizing the better part of your whole body. At this point, as others have said, don't tweak anything in particular. Just hit a lot of balls to solidify your skills and make sure you can consistently repeat the last two forehands you showed in the clip. Then, you can start swinging faster by increasing coil and quicker hip/shoulder rotation.
 
D

dominikk1985

Legend
10isfreak said:
They begin with the racket higher, but when I compare Federer's or Nadal's forehand to the average forehand on the tour, I feel like their take back is less circular, more like a racket drop. But, that's an illustration or a visual cue, if you prefer; the point was to bring people get an idea of what this type of forehand look like since some might not be very comfortable using pronation/supination, extension/flexion, radial deviation/ulnar deviation, etc.

To me, personally, it feels like the racket just drops down. However, that's my perception and it's heavily influenced by my personal experience and, unfortunately, it can't be an actual illustration for everyone.


Regardless, the important point was pronation versus supination during the take back... Again, "take back" is also not clear, but I would say that when both hands split (usually, players keep both hands together before until they are ready to swing; many, for instance, will hold the throat with their off hand), the take back begins. As for when to identify this feature, it's mainly by the end of the take back: as the player is just about to swing.
Click to expand...

I agree with that. both fed and nadal have a small loop but I think it is more a "Pseudo loop" because they both are dropping the racket very slowly as their arm extends. they are not really using gravity as most double bend loop FHs (like gonzelez or tsonga) do but instead basically start the acceleration at the low point.

however I think the OP shouldn't worry about those details. his swing is good, now he just has to add more footwork and then more leg drive and hip rotation to generate more RHS.

but don't try to rush the process.

first start by getting into position better, then add some leg and hip drive and then finally swing faster (as a product of both). if you try to swing harder you will overswing and shank a lot.


tennis should never be about increasing power and then somehow try to harness it and get more balls in but first keep the ball in and then increase the speed gradually.
 
C

counterfeit25

Rookie
A "heavy" ball is relative~ If I hit a ball to a beginner he may feel it's heavy, but if I hit that same ball to Federer it would feel like tissue paper to him.
 
L

latestgood

New User
Hey Guys,

thanks for you tips and feedback. :)

As I was hitting yesterday, I rotated my shoulder more during my take-back and uncoiled my body faster while hitting the ball out in front of my body. Well, I can now say that my ball has pace and spin.

My friend told me that my forehand has pace of ntrp player of 4.0 -4.5

I couldn't have done it without you guys!

I'll try to post videos sometime this weekend.
 
J

jmnk

Hall of Fame
latestgood said:
Hey Guys,

thanks for you tips and feedback. :)

As I was hitting yesterday, I rotated my shoulder more during my take-back and uncoiled my body faster while hitting the ball out in front of my body. Well, I can now say that my ball has pace and spin.

My friend told me that my forehand has pace of ntrp player of 4.0 -4.5

I couldn't have done it without you guys!

I'll try to post videos sometime this weekend.
Click to expand...

there you have it - perhaps low, but still 4.5 level forehand after only 7 months of playing. Predicting ATP level in perhaps 12 months tops??
 
L

latestgood

New User
Here's the video I promised to upload couple days ago.
My forehand is consistent enough to rally with 4.0 - 4.5 I think I was able to improve my forehand in a short span of time due to emphasizing relaxed wrist. And reading different tips posted by other members. I couldn't have done it without guys guys. Thanks!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-2WQsxqBEo

However, I get destroyed by 4.0 in matches.
 
B

B.B.

Rookie
You are talented that´s for sure.

I agree with most in here, keep having fun and train a lot. If you can play on different surfaces and maybe some doubles also that would be ideal.

Do you have some backhand shots aswell?
 
L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
You have excellent swing speed for the time you''ve played.
However, it's all translated into pure topspin with little ball speed, so if you relaxed more, and swung FASTER, the result would only be more spin without adding any ball speed.
Not saying it's a bad stroke whatsoever, but be aware you won't be hitting many forcing shots and winners with your forehand. Right now, it's a rallyball forehand only, forcing you to run and cover more court since you aren't hitting forcing shots against 4.0 level players.
And of course, I can rally with a 5.0 pretty even if they hit somewhere I can reach, but I would lose to a quick, athletic 3.5 singles player in a real match.
Rallying and playing points are two entirely different animals.
 
B

Bagumbawalla

G.O.A.T.
Your form looks good for just a few months playing. When it comes to a "heavy" ball, as mentioned, racket heads speed is what makes the difference.

You do want topspin, but, also, much more foreward momentum. Just as a sort of drill, find an old racket that has a cover, just for the head (or cover your racket head with a plastic bag), and "shadow" practice your normal stroke- striving for speed and smoothness against the added resistance- the same stroke, just faster.
 
L

latestgood

New User
LeeD said:
You have excellent swing speed for the time you''ve played.
However, it's all translated into pure topspin with little ball speed, so if you relaxed more, and swung FASTER, the result would only be more spin without adding any ball speed.
Not saying it's a bad stroke whatsoever, but be aware you won't be hitting many forcing shots and winners with your forehand. Right now, it's a rallyball forehand only, forcing you to run and cover more court since you aren't hitting forcing shots against 4.0 level players.
And of course, I can rally with a 5.0 pretty even if they hit somewhere I can reach, but I would lose to a quick, athletic 3.5 singles player in a real match.
Rallying and playing points are two entirely different animals.
Click to expand...

Hi Leed,

You're right, rally strokes are completely different from playing in a real match. I am trying to play more games but I lack the anticipation and footwork.

Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrR1rwJjZPU
 
corbind

corbind

Professional
latestgood said:
Hi Leed,

You're right, rally strokes are completely different from playing in a real match. I am trying to play more games but I lack the anticipation and footwork.

Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrR1rwJjZPU
Click to expand...

I'm jealous you're a lefty! As such I noticed in this video you hit so many of your forehands either to the middle of the court so the opponent could move usually to hit forehands or you hit to his deuce side which is his forehand!

Use left-handed ability to your advantage. Unless he has a stronger BH, why not hit 80% or more of your FH to his backhand? Usually it is cross court so even easier!
 
Last edited:
L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Poster 45....
You have a great forehand, no backhand, absolutley no serve.
BUT, you have a great forehand, for your level.
Play more, you look like you've been playing for just a year.
Use your backhand, either 1 or 2 hands.
Use you legs to drive upwards into your serve, and swing faster on serves than you do on forehands.
 
G

Govnor

Professional
This is the point where you have to FORCE yourself to use your back hand as much as you possibly can. You will not lose that forehand, but you HAVE to be able to play on both sides or any decent player will hit to your backhand at every chance they get. Until you improve that, your serve will be a total liability, as the opponent will get a free chance to hit to your back hand at the start of every point.
 
F

fullpolyserve&volley

Rookie
If they aint broke, don't fix em, Just be happy with what nature gave you.... Silicone injections in that area is possible, but its almost an irreversible procedure..
 
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