Sid_Vicious
G.O.A.T.
What do you guys think?
Definitely Agassi IMO. A mid 30s Agassi was staying right with Federer in the forehand exchangs, something even peak Roddick (late 2003-2004) only could to somewhat the occasional match.
Agassi...easily. Roddick had a big forehand but IMO it was never a great shot, he needed to give up way too much court positioning to hit it (similar to Gasquet's backhand) and it could be error prone. He couldn't even place it that well. On the other hand, Agassi's forehand was one of the best of all time, Roddick's wasn't never even one of the best his era IMO (just one of the biggest but today there are several forehands that are bigger than Roddick's ever was and more accurate as well).
Andre was such a clean striker of the ball, Roddick can't really come close. With an average serve, Roddick has about a top 20 baseline game at his best IMO (whereas Isner and Karlovic are top 200 without their serves).
Also, what's the point of coming with hypothetical scenarios where Roddick has an average serve? That is his major weapon. If you are going to use these types of arguments, lets apply it across the board to all top players. Berdych wouldn't be in the top 10 if he didn't have his ball-bashing forehand. Ditto for Soderling, Tsonga, and Del Potro. How about Nadal? Let's gave him Melzer's forehand and see if he can win RG 7 times.
My point in bringing up Roddick with an average serve was that the quality his ground game is not what wins him matches, it's his serve (which was one of the best of all time). Because of the quality and insurance that serve gave him , he was able to ball-bash and hit some big shots. IMO if he were forced to rely on his forehand to the extent of someone like Berdych or Gonzales (both of whom had much worse serves than he did) then I think he would have been much less successful than them. And yes, I do think that Del Potro and Berdych have better forehands than Roddick ever did.
I'm not saying Roddick's forehand was a bad shot but I think it is pretty overrated by people who remember it a little too fondly, IMO it was not up to the level of a truly great forehand like Agassi or even Berdych. It's like saying that Isner has a really great forehand today (not saying Roddick is on Isner's level), he can smash some huge winners sometimes because his serve is so big that he can afford to make errors, but its not actually a great shot.
Only Del Potro has (had more like) a forehand that was probably better than Roddick. Berdych is the one with the good , but not great forehand. You criticize Roddicks forehand for being erratic and a shot that makes him lose ground yet you think Berdych has a Jesus forehand? Lol. Berdych is the clown who starts missing forehands by 10 feet when he plays guys like Djokovic or Nadal. Even when he is hitting his supposed "great forehand" well, he gets his ass handed to him by Djokovic who redirects his pace and makes the flat foot oaf stumble around. Berdych does not generate incredible angles on his forehand, he struggles clearing the net when he has to really use his wrist to generate racquet head speed inside the court, and his clutchness with the forehand is pathetic because of his relatively flat swing.My point in bringing up Roddick with an average serve was that the quality his ground game is not what wins him matches, it's his serve (which was one of the best of all time). Because of the quality and insurance that serve gave him , he was able to ball-bash and hit some big shots. IMO if he were forced to rely on his forehand to the extent of someone like Berdych or Gonzales (both of whom had much worse serves than he did) then I think he would have been much less successful than them because his FH was not on their level. And yes, I do think that Del Potro and Berdych have better forehands than Roddick ever did.
I'm not saying Roddick's forehand was a bad shot but I think it is pretty overrated by people who remember it a little too fondly, IMO it was not up to the level of a truly great forehand like Agassi or even Berdych. It's like saying that Isner has a really great forehand today (not saying Roddick is on Isner's level), he can smash some huge winners sometimes because his serve is so big that he can afford to make errors, but its not actually a great shot. Roddick's forehand was a very good shot but not a great one.
Only Del Potro has (had more like) a forehand that was probably better than Roddick. Berdych is the one with the good , but not great forehand. You criticize Roddicks forehand for being erratic and a shot that makes him lose ground yet you think Berdych has a Jesus forehand? Lol. Berdych is the clown who starts missing forehands by 10 feet when he plays guys like Djokovic or Nadal. Even when he is hitting his supposed "great forehand" well, he gets his ass handed to him by Djokovic who redirects his pace and makes the flat foot oaf stumble around. Berdych does not generate incredible angles on his forehand, he struggles clearing the net when he has to really use his wrist to generate racquet head speed inside the court, and his clutchness with the forehand is pathetic because of his relatively flat swing.
Your argument about Roddick having only his serve to win him points is incorrect. Roddick was one of the big hitters who could adapt pretty well to his best shot not helping him. Despite Nalbandian having a great returning day (USO 2003), Roddick hit an enormous amount of forehand winners to keep the match as tight as possible. Nalbandian certainly did not win most forehand to forehand rallies.A clown like Berdych rolls over and dies easily when he is not having a good day of ball bashing or runs into a better player. Roddick at least busted his ass grinding throughout the match trying to find more opportunities to hit forehand winners. He did that a lot during WIM 2004, which is why federer have him props for his inside-in/out forehands
And once again, you can spin this argument the other way. I can say that Berdych and Gonzalez get a sense of safety because they know they can ball bash their way to scoring wins. Berdych and Gonzalez feel just as confident crushing weak shots as roddick does serving huge.The only difference is that Roddick crushed huge serves and forehands unlike Gonzo and Berdych and that is why he is a far superior player than either of them.
I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree, it's true that Roddick did a whole lot more winning than any of these other players. But IMO that was because his serve was MUCH better than any of theirs, and he was a lot mentally tougher. Berdych is a mental clown and has a mediocre serve for his height but he is able to trouble the top players and beat Federer because of his massive and accurate forehand. Unlike Roddick he doesn't have to camp out 10 feet behind the baseline because his backswing is so huge (that's what I meant by Roddick giving up ground and that's why Andy changed his backswing in 2005/2006 to a shorter version, to avoid giving up court) and he can hit spots a lot better with the forehand . I just don't see Roddick's forehand as being on the same technical level as the great ones.
Of course Roddick had some game outside his serve. In the event he didnt he would just be Karlovic, or a bit worse as Karlovic has an even better serve. However one is seriously deluding themselves to think the biggest key to his success and his biggest point getter by far wasnt always the serve. As for if he had just a moderately good serve like Berdych or Gonzalez, he probably would be a top 20 player at best (and I am talking at his peak). As it was his serve was one of the most dominant shots in the game, and unlike someone like Karlovic he was able to put together enough big forehands and other good points to get the wins to be a top 5 player at his peak, and make some slam finals. I also think outside his serve his biggest assets were his mental toughness, fight, and consistency. His forehand was a big weapon for about 18 months, but even then it was just a factor in his success, never the biggest one.
Roddick's forehand is technically not very nice, I agree. However, sometimes great shots are not textbook. Roddick's forehand did not look nice and crisp like Federer or Berdych's, but he was a natural at striking the ball with it. As for Berdych's matches with Federer... tennis is a game of match ups. Berdych might have beaten Federer quite a few times, but lets not forget when Berdych's first win over Federer came in a major..Wimbledon 2010. There is a big difference in the Federer Roddick had to deal with from 2004-2007 than the one Berdych frequently beats up on these days. With that said, Berdych does not beat Federer with accurate forehands. That is what Nadal does when he uses his forehand to get Federer on a string. Berdych hits hard and flat with his forehand to Federer's backhand and, as usual these days, Federer puts up a fluffball that Berdych crushes for a winner.
Federer is also an example of a guy with an accurate forehand. When he is on with that, he probably troubles Djokovic way more than anybody on tour. Berdych's forehand is largely ineffective against Djokovic; it is such a one dimensional shot and guys like Djokovic/Nadal have learned how to absorb it like sponges. Especially Djokovic, he is so comfortable playing Berdych now that he does not even look he is stressed for time like most guys who play Berdych are.
You are right, of course. We are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I saw every minute of Berdych's match against Ferrer at the DC final 2 months ago and just the way Ferrer exposed Berdych's one dimensional ball bashing with solid counterpunching strengthened my belief that Berdych is not the special talent everyone makes him out to be.
Just to address your last paragraph, Del Potro has been "exposed" 4 times in the last year by Ferrer on ALL surfaces worse than Berdych has, do you also believe that he doesn't have a great forehand? Hell Roddick himself was owned by Ferrer 7-3 H2H while definitely being an overall better player. Ferrer is a very tough player to beat if you are not an exceptional mover like the top 4 (interestingly sone of the only other players to own Ferrer are Monfils and Davydenko, other exceptional movers), he is beating everyone up these days.
Berdychs forehand even gave prime Federer trouble sometimes. Look at the 2004 Olympics where it ruined Federers Olympic singles gold dream, they had very tough matches in the Davis Cup once, and one other time at Halle around 06 and 07 where Berdychs forehand was on fire, and at the 2009 Australian Open Berdych went up 2 sets to 0 on Federer who was in midst of winning 4 of 6 slams and reaching 6 finals in a row.
I agree Roddick was a different player after 2004 and never the same again after being coached by Goldfine who didnt seem to understand his game at all.
Anyway, I think even if you can't agree that Berdych has a better forehand than Roddick you can at least admit that Agassi did. Most people in the poll seem to think so, at least.
They are different; Agassi hits quite flat and has a textbook forehand. Let's not forget he is probably one of the few short guys in tennis who hit like a big guy. His forehand was an absolute tank of a shot at times. Roddick's on the other hand, is slightly more violent in power, spin and stroke production. There are those who say Roddick actually muscles his forehand: That's BS. Roddick's forehand just takes a little more energy to produce than Agassi's. But Roddick could blast away from the off whilst Agassi had to wait for the right time to strike.
that's not strictly true ...agassi in his early days hit huge off his forehand wing ...without wasting energy ... it was only under gilbert that he toned it down and made it a more consistent shot ...even afterwards, as and when required, he did hit massive FHs ...
I think Agassi's FH seemed slightly bigger than it was because he took the ball so early, I think Roddick when he was really going for had a bigger FH (heavy as well, he hit it with a lot of spin).
that's not strictly true ...agassi in his early days hit huge off his forehand wing ...without wasting energy ... it was only under gilbert that he toned it down and made it a more consistent shot ...even afterwards, as and when required, he did hit massive FHs ...
I took stats on 2004 Cincinnati(Agassi d Roddick 75, 67, 76)
Roddick edged Agassi 19-7 in fh winners
agassis forehand was the real deal, more versatile, more power, hit it earlier, had more choices.. he really toned it down to be more consistent and less flashy as time went on so alot of people who choose roddick might only know the resurgent agassi of late 90s and on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWvv9WD7xy8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khbD62GehvM
qft. roddick's peak is much easier to pinpoint on a timeline than agassi's. imho, i consider the peak in agassi's game to be circa 94-95 (beating pete at the aussie) but if you're strictly speaking forehands, then early aa (pre-gilbert) is where you need to look. either way, aa gets the edge in my book. even at roddick's peak, his forehand was prone to break down. if you're gonna compare winners off the forehand, you have compare ues too. agassi at his best didn't give away many free points and used both wings to finish the point. aa didn't rely on his fh as much as roddick did because aa had one of the best backhands, so i could see where that might skew the winner totals as well.
No. Pro's strokes only break down due to a lack of fatigue or poor footwork (which is usually the result in poor fatigue). Mechanically Roddick's power forehand is actually a lot more efficient than his 'consistent' moonballing forehand from 05 onwards.
it doesn't matter WHY it happens, only THAT it happens and the point is that at the peaks aa didn't seem to miss as often as roddick did. anyway, wouldn't a "lack of fatigue" (sic) mean that said pro in question wasn't tired.