Stuck playing in a flex league I'm too good for.....

Brian11785 · Feb 20, 2013

I have been playing in flex leagues for a couple of years now, working my way up from

winning only one match in my first 3.0 season to
winning the city 3.0 tournament to
winning only one set my first season in 3.5 to
going 4-2 my second season in 3.5 (beating a guy in straight sets who'd previously beat me 6-1,6-1.)

All of this progression happened in LeagueTennis.

With a sweet $10 season deal they had going this spring, I decided to sign up for UltimateTennis this time.

The last time I played Ultimate was last summer, I went a respectable 6-1 with a loss in the second round of the 16-person playoffs in 3.0. However, I won several three setters and my rating was a little shy of causing me to be bumped up. All of this happened around the time I was getting demolished in 3.5 LeagueTennis (as mentioned above.)

In the months after that season, I took a few lessons, worked on some weak areas, improved my strengths and found a racquet/string setup that gave me a lot of confidence. Hence, the turn-around and 4-2 record in the fall season of LeagueTennis 3.5. And I think I'm now better than I was in the fall.

I sent an email to UltimateTennis telling them this....that I'd finished with a winning record in 3.5 LeagueTennis, along the way beating a guy who regularly does well in Ultimate 3.5. Basically requesting to be bumped up to 3.5...seemed reasonable.

I was sent a form copy-and-paste-from-the-website letter response denying my request.

So.....here I am. Stuck playing 3.0 for one more season.

Should I:
(a) Attempt to double bagel every person that I play.
(b) Play the whole season with my Jimmy Connors and/or Chris Evert American Star Wilson woodies.
(c) Be a cold machine on court and forward my opponent Ultimate's response at the first sounds of "sandbagger."
(d) Both a and c
(e) Create your own.

???

spot · Feb 20, 2013

Sounds to me like ultimate tennis was right to deny your request. Just because you did well in another league doesn't mean they should bump you. Go out and prove you don't belong. IF you truly dominate then you will get bumped up 2 levels but that is very difficult to do.

I guess this thread would have a lot more validity if you had already crushed your first 2 opponents.

Brian11785 · Feb 20, 2013

spot said:
Sounds to me like ultimate tennis was right to deny your request. Just because you did well in another league doesn't mean they should bump you. Go out and prove you don't belong. IF you truly dominate then you will get bumped up 2 levels but that is very difficult to do.

I guess this thread would have a lot more validity if you had already crushed your first 2 opponents.

I am not really mad or offended and understand why they would be hesitant to take my word for it.

I know the thread title is a little snarky, but I honestly see this as sort of a challenge.

I can keep this thread updated, regardless of how it goes.

OrangePower · Feb 20, 2013

Hmm, weird situation.

You are effectively a 3.5, know you are a 3.5, and you want to play 3.5 rather than sandbag at 3.0. So you are trying to do the right thing.

But UltimateTennis won't let you play at 3.5 and insists you play 3.0. I'm not familar with Ultimate but seems silly that they won't let you play up especially since you can demonstrate a history of success at 3.5.

Anyway, I would either (1) not play at all, or (2) play, and treat the matches just as I would any other match - play with your regular equipment, try play your best at the outset of each match, and if you happen to get bored or lose focus (sometimes happens when opponents are much weaker), try work on some different strategies (serve and volley, chip and charge, etc).

And if your opponents accuse you of sandbagging, just be honest with them about the circumstances.

J_R_B · Feb 20, 2013

Crush them! And hear the lamentations of their women...

Brian11785 · Feb 20, 2013

OrangePower said:
Hmm, weird situation.

You are effectively a 3.5, know you are a 3.5, and you want to play 3.5 rather than sandbag at 3.0. So you are trying to do the right thing.

But UltimateTennis won't let you play at 3.5 and insists you play 3.0. I'm not familar with Ultimate but seems silly that they won't let you play up especially since you can demonstrate a history of success at 3.5.

Anyway, I would either (1) not play at all, or (2) play, and treat the matches just as I would any other match - play with your regular equipment, try play your best at the outset of each match, and if you happen to get bored or lose focus (sometimes happens when opponents are much weaker), try work on some different strategies (serve and volley, chip and charge, etc).

And if your opponents accuse you of sandbagging, just be honest with them about the circumstances.

This is the right answer I think.

J_R_B said:
Crush them! And hear the lamentations of their women...

There actually are a good number of wives who come along for these matches. Imagining giving some guy a beatdown, then, as I'm walking away, asking his girl "You leaving wit' me or him?"

asimple · Feb 20, 2013

I'm a bit surprised as I was under the impression that Ultimate pretty easily bumps people up. I actually sent a complaint about this and a few other things last year. A few of us started another league as Ultimate didn't fit us anymore. I really liked Ultimate and wish we didn't have to do that though.

During the fall season, I was kind of in the same position you are because they bumped the good players out of the league and added some from the lower division. I picked one of your options and set my goal to lose as few games as possible. This is actually more difficult than you would think and actually good practice. I was somewhat successful at it, but lost more games than I would have liked.

I've also seen people use false names in Ultimate, so you could actually play both.

spot · Feb 20, 2013

asimple said:
I'm a bit surprised as I was under the impression that Ultimate pretty easily bumps people up..

That was my experience. I had a season where I was truly dominant and in line for at least a bump if not a double bump but in the last match I broke strings on both my racquets and had to borrow a random one from someone there and it was a disaster. I think I was up 6-2 4-1 at the time and proceeded to lose the match in a third set tiebreaker. I just emailed them and they moved me up.

But I do understand why they wouldn't do it. In Atlanta at least Ultimate Tennis has a higher level of play than some of the smaller singles leagues (though USTA ratings are higher) so I think they were right to tell him to go prove it on the court in their league. I really do think that he may end up having more work to do than he thinks.

And if he really is that dominate and wins the whole thing at his level then that would probably make them start bumping up people in similar situations.

Cindysphinx · Feb 20, 2013

Try to get through the season with more double-bagels than anyone has ever compiled ever.

Go for a Golden Set.

Dominate, crush, demoralize.

When your defeated opponents complain to you, cheerfully tell them that you asked for a bump up but were denied.

That said . . . it takes real mental toughness to get bagel sets. A momentary lapse and before you know it a game has slipped away. If nothing else, this will be good practice in not playing "down" to the level of your opponents.

fundrazer · Feb 20, 2013

Given your response to the one post, I'm guessing his reference to Conan totally went over your head.

Brian11785 · Feb 20, 2013

fundrazer said:
Given your response to the one post, I'm guessing his reference to Conan totally went over your head.

Had to look it up. Too old for me. More likely to catch a Conan (O'Brien) reference.

ttocs013 · Feb 20, 2013

If this is Atlanta then they were most likely correct in not bumping you (although why they wouldn't do it after a request is unknown to me).

UltimateTennis is a much deeper league than LeagueTennis (I've played both at 4.0). I'd say just play your matches, win them with breathing room, and move up to 3.5 next season.

This happened to me when I was a 3.0 (or 3.5, can't remember) as well and I took the maximum amount of points and got bounced in the 2nd round of playoffs. **** happens.

Good luck though, Going back to try to make 4.5 after a 2 year singles hiatus in Ultimate. I will probably get destroyed.

Brian11785 · Feb 20, 2013

ttocs013 said:
If this is Atlanta then they were most likely correct in not bumping you (although why they wouldn't do it after a request is unknown to me).

UltimateTennis is a much deeper league than LeagueTennis (I've played both at 4.0). I'd say just play your matches, win them with breathing room, and move up to 3.5 next season.

This happened to me when I was a 3.0 (or 3.5, can't remember) as well and I took the maximum amount of points and got bounced in the 2nd round of playoffs. **** happens.

Good luck though, Going back to try to make 4.5 after a 2 year singles hiatus in Ultimate. I will probably get destroyed.

I'm in Dallas, but it is the same here. 3.0 in UT is a bit stronger than LT at every skill level. I still think I should win out in the regular season (like I said, I went 6-1 last summer, before my improvement; lost in the second round of the playoffs 7-6 in the third set after leading 4 games to 1...but that's another story.) I'll likely lose in the playoffs against someone in my situation or a conscious sandbagger (My first season making the 3.0 playoffs was eventually won by a guy who'd won 3.5 in the past but they were allowing to play down after an injury.....Ugh.)

Govnor · Feb 20, 2013

That is very frustrating. I feel bad for you. Maybe you could bribe someone?

Buford T Justice · Feb 20, 2013

Your other option, as you haven't played UT in a year, is to wait another year. At that point, you'll have to requalify preferably by playing another benchmark player at your desired level. UT will then take that qualifying match as "proof" of your proper rating level. They seem quite reasonable on this.

This happened to me as I didn't play in the league for a couple of years so my old level was no longer considered accurate.

Ultimately though, all you have to do is end the season with a 10.0 rating or higher and you'll move up two levels. If your area has the minus levels, youll move from 3.0 to 3.5 (and skip the 3.5- level). If you are notably better than everyone else in your league, this will not be that hard to do. It basically means you'll win matches 6-2, 6-2.

jaybear1909 · Feb 20, 2013

Glad to see I'm not the only one having this problem with UT. I played 2 seasons of 4.0-, the first going 5-1 and losing in the quarterfinals. Second season I went 7-0, but only had a 5.33 rating. UT's standards are 5.5+ moves up, below 5.5 stays the same level. Basically, .17 rating is keeping me from being moved up.

The first and second season, I played many of the same opponents. I had a few good matches (played a guy that has played many seasons including 4.5 a few seasons ago, and beat him in 3). 3 straights and 3 3-setters.

But get this: my 7th match, the opponent withdrew from the league. So I was left to play a sub, if one joined. Problem was, no sub joined and I ended up having to win by default on that one, granting me 12 points instead of 14 had I won in straights (which I had the season previous to this opponent). Had I played that match I would have had the .17 rating necessary.

UT wouldn't listen and kept sending me automated responses. I eventually just created a new account and put myself at 4.5. That way, if I lose, it's because the opponent was better than me, and I won't have any more of these move-up problems.

I feel your pain.

Buford T Justice · Feb 20, 2013

IMO, the way UT rates players and determines move ups or move downs is very well thought out. It addresses the idea that how much one wins by matters. I've had similar seasons to Jaybear where I won all matches and moved up 2 levels and another season where I won all matches and didn't. I've also had a season where I went 1-6 and stayed at the same level. Again....because the losses weren't bad enough to warrant a drop down.

The simplest way to show that one is much better than everyone else is to win the league. In many cases, finishing runner up or making the semis means one moves up if there is a good sized field. ln these cases, no matter your season rating you move up.

Buford T Justice · Feb 20, 2013

jaybear1909 said:
But get this: my 7th match, the opponent withdrew from the league. So I was left to play a sub, if one joined. Problem was, no sub joined and I ended up having to win by default on that one, granting me 12 points instead of 14 had I won in straights (which I had the season previous to this opponent). Had I played that match I would have had the .17 rating

Even if you played a sub (and UT allows you to find and pick your own sub....basically any other player in your league) the match would not have counted towards your rating.

https://www.ultimatetennis.com/support_pages/singles-rating-calculation

jaybear1909 · Feb 20, 2013

Buford T Justice said:
Even if you played a sub (and UT allows you to find and pick your own sub....basically any other player in your league) the match would not have counted towards your rating.

https://www.ultimatetennis.com/support_pages/singles-rating-calculation

What I meant was, had I played the original player to sign up, I would have had the rating. I'm assuming I would have won because I had beat him comfortably the season prior and had gotten a lot better as well.

It sucks the sub wouldn't have granted rating. That's kind of dumb in my opinion.

jaybear1909 · Feb 20, 2013

Buford T Justice said:
IMO, the way UT rates players and determines move ups or move downs is very well thought out. It addresses the idea that how much one wins by matters. I've had similar seasons to Jaybear where I won all matches and moved up 2 levels and another season where I won all matches and didn't. I've also had a season where I went 1-6 and stayed at the same level. Again....because the losses weren't bad enough to warrant a drop down.

The simplest way to show that one is much better than everyone else is to win the league. In many cases, finishing runner up or making the semis means one moves up if there is a good sized field. ln these cases, no matter your season rating you move up.

I agree, but it's much easier said than done. I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I play much better against better competition. At 4.0- I was playing people that were athletic, but didn't really have put-aways. They were consistent and I'd end up beating myself (or going to 3 sets when I should have won in 2). I've improved even more since last season, but still feel like I wouldn't do amazing (UT's standards for move-up) just because I wouldn't be able to get into those matches.

For example, I play a 5.0 friend often. He's beaten me 49/50 sets (give or take), but every time we play, I know it's him beating me and not myself. I play my best tennis and get better doing it. When we first started hitting, he beat me 6-0/6-1 easily. Now I can force a tiebreak and have chances to win the set (for instance, yesterday I was up 4-2 serving. He ended up coming back to beat me in the tiebreaker).

At 4.0- I play people that hit slow, push balls and in general just aren't any fun. This makes my level drop tremendously.

Personally, I see no harm in moving up. Worst case someone gets a free bagel. I'm sure they won't complain. The problem would be when wanting to move down. Then sandbagging comes into play.

EDIT: As Cindy said though, it is good practice against playing down. That is my #1 hurdle in tennis.

spot · Feb 20, 2013

Honestly- I think the single best thing that Ultimate tennis does is that they level people very well. You get a good match every week because it is tough to move up a level and you really have to be at the next level to do so. (At least in Atlanta where there are a lot of people at every half-level.

I like that they require extenuating circumstances to bump someone who didn't win in their league. This OP has a perfect example of someone that I don't think they should bump. Earn you way up- the league is better for it. Too many people have grossly overrated themselves and the ultimate tennis methodology does a good job of separating people within a couple seasons in my experience. For me the only people I really see who are out of level are the self rates.

jaybear1909 · Feb 20, 2013

spot said:
Honestly- I think the single best thing that Ultimate tennis does is that they level people very well. You get a good match every week because it is tough to move up a level and you really have to be at the next level to do so. (At least in Atlanta where there are a lot of people at every half-level.

I like that they require extenuating circumstances to bump someone who didn't win in their league. This OP has a perfect example of someone that I don't think they should bump. Earn you way up- the league is better for it. Too many people have grossly overrated themselves and the ultimate tennis methodology does a good job of separating people within a couple seasons in my experience. For me the only people I really see who are out of level are the self rates.

But 7-0 (6-0 and 1 default) isn't good enough for a bump up why? Yes, UT has many good characteristics, but they're a little harsh on the move-up givings. In my opinion they should grant move-ups to players that (a.) win their division or (b.) drop the requirement down about half a point. There really is no harm in bumping someone up half a level when they dominated their division.

And the OP's situation: Why would he want to play 3.0 when he successfully plays 3.5 in other leagues? He has to waste his money to prove to UT that he is capable of 3.5, when he already knows he is? Not to mention, what if he has one bad day and squanders his rating?

omega4 · Feb 20, 2013

Brian11785 said:
There actually are a good number of wives who come along for these matches. Imagining giving some guy a beatdown, then, as I'm walking away, asking his girl "You leaving wit' me or him?"

There was a GREAT "Seinfeld" episode along those lines, except it was the tennis pro that wanted Jerry to throw the match so that the pro could impress his wife.

I agree with JRB: crush your opponents, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.

spot · Feb 20, 2013

He has to waste his money to prove to UT that he is capable of 3.5, when he already knows he is?

Lots of people KNOW they are better even though their results show otherwise. He THINKS he is better- make him prove it and the league is better off.

fleabitten · Feb 20, 2013

Goddamn, the egos on TW.

omega4 · Feb 20, 2013

spot said:
Lots of people KNOW they are better than their results show otherwise. He THINKS he is better- make him prove it and the league is better off.

Maybe the OP KNOWS he's better than his results but doesn't want to come across as an egotistical jerk and get called out for it by some members on this forum who have a predilection for doing so.

So he does the SMART thing and writes that he thinks he's better than his results instead.

spot · Feb 20, 2013

omega4 said:
Maybe the OP KNOWS he's better than his results but doesn't want to come across as an egotistical jerk and get called out for it by some members on this forum who have a predilection for doing so.

So he does the SMART thing and writes that he thinks he's better than his results.

His exact quote of why he thinks he is better.

In the months after that season, I took a few lessons, worked on some weak areas, improved my strengths and found a racquet/string setup that gave me a lot of confidence. Hence, the turn-around and 4-2 record in the fall season of LeagueTennis 3.5. And I think I'm now better than I was in the fall.

HIS words were that he thinks he is better. That simply isn't nearly enough to move someone up. A few lessons, "working" on weak areas, getting a new string setup, and more confidence are not nearly enough for me.

I say this as someone who has experience running a big Round Robin. People use ridiculous grade inflation when they assess their own levels. They want to play against better players because they want to think of themselves as a better player. If they move down from where I start them it doesn't affect their perception of how good they are.

If the OP had said he was winning at 4.0 in a lesser league then I'd be on his side.Going 4-2 in peach tennis in atlanta at 3.5 would likely mean he would have trouble moving up at 3.0 in Ultimate tennis. Given the evidence that the OP presented I would have done just what ultimate tennis did and tell him to go out and earn the promotion because I would have no reason think he was actually out of level.

We shall see how out of level the OP was. I will be impressed if he pulls off the 10.0 rating of an average 6-2 to 6-2 score and I will absolutely admit he was right if he pulls that off.

jaybear1909 · Feb 20, 2013

spot said:
Lots of people KNOW they are better even though their results show otherwise. He THINKS he is better- make him prove it and the league is better off.

His results do show he is better... He went 6-1 at 3.0 while losing badly at 3.5. After lessons etc, he goes from losing badly at 3.5 to winning majority. This means he got better. Not that he THINKS he got better.

I guarantee you sandbaggers lose more money for UT than people playing up do.

omega4 · Feb 20, 2013

Some people want to play better players because they enjoy a challenge. It's win/win for them. If they lose, then there's nothing lost as they were defeated by a superior opponent. If they win, then they can revel in the knowledge that they beat a superior opponent.

Not every person feels the need to underestimate their capabilities to ensure an easy victory or overestimating their current proficiency.

spot said:
I say this as someone who has experience running a big Round Robin. People use ridiculous grade inflation when they assess their own levels. They want to play against better players because they want to think of themselves as a better player. If they move down from where I start them it doesn't affect their perception of how good they are.

Buford T Justice · Feb 21, 2013

jaybear1909 said:
But 7-0 (6-0 and 1 default) isn't good enough for a bump up why? Yes, UT has many good characteristics, but they're a little harsh on the move-up givings. In my opinion they should grant move-ups to players that (a.) win their division or (b.) drop the requirement down about half a point. There really is no harm in bumping someone up half a level when they dominated their division.

No....7-0 is not automatically good enough for a bump up. What if all those wins were 7-6, 6-7, 7-6?

That's the point of the UT rating system. You can't just win....you have to win on average by a certain amount to prove to them you are significantly better than the others in the league.

Basically, all that's required to move up is to win all matches on average 6-4, 6-4. That will give one a season rating of +6 and a bump up. (In reality, all one has to do to end with a +6 is to win all matches 7-6, 7-6 as UT caps the points for a loss at 8 and awards 14 points for a straight sets win.) What's so unrealistic about that? Those are not exactly scores that indicate domination of a league, but they still show consistent performance that is slightly better than the opponent, so a bump up is awarded.

IMO, if UT grants move ups any more easily, the levels will get diluted and there will be too many people getting bageled an breadsticked. Most guys that play don't want to go out and annihilate their opponent. Granted, some do like the easy 14 points, but most are playing to have good matches.

spot · Feb 21, 2013

jaybear1909 said:
But 7-0 (6-0 and 1 default) isn't good enough for a bump up why?

If someone has 6 grueling 3 set matches that they win then they are at the right level because every match is competitive. For me the time someone should be moving up is when they are starting to have non-competitive matches at the level where they are at. You have 4 grueling 3 setters and also win a couple other matches 6-2 6-2 then the system does move you up which I think is completely fair.

People here act like its a virtue to want to play better players but ignore people in the higher league who also want to play better players. Once you let people play against higher level players just because they wish they could have that challenge then the system becomes worse for everyone else. Go out and show you don't belong at that level. If you aren't getting any straight set victories at your current level you obviously have a lot you can still learn there.

beernutz · Feb 21, 2013

jaybear1909 said:
His results do show he is better... He went 6-1 at 3.0 while losing badly at 3.5. After lessons etc, he goes from losing badly at 3.5 to winning majority. This means he got better. Not that he THINKS he got better.

I guarantee you sandbaggers lose more money for UT than people playing up do.

I would say he did not necessarily get better just because his win loss record improved as it matters a great deal WHO he played. If you let me cherry pick my opponents, I am positive I could pick out a large number of local players who are computer rated at my level who could not take a set off me in ten tries. Conversely, there are a number of players at my level who I am probably even money or worse against, so we'd each likely win about five of those ten tries.

My point is that depending on their mix of opponents, someone could easily not get better but still dramatically improve their win/loss record against players of a particular rating level.

Buford T Justice · Feb 21, 2013

spot said:
If someone has 6 grueling 3 set matches that they win then they are at the right level because every match is competitive. For me the time someone should be moving up is when they are starting to have non-competitive matches at the level where they are at. You have 4 grueling 3 setters and also win a couple other matches 6-2 6-2 then the system does move you up which I think is completely fair.

People here act like its a virtue to want to play better players but ignore people in the higher league who also want to play better players. Once you let people play against higher level players just because they wish they could have that challenge then the system becomes worse for everyone else. Go out and show you don't belong at that level. If you aren't getting any straight set victories at your current level you obviously have a lot you can still learn at that level.

I think this post summarizes the UT methodology.

Buford T Justice · Feb 21, 2013

beernutz said:
I would say he did not necessarily get better just because his win loss record improved as it matters a great deal WHO he played. If you let me cherry pick my opponents, I am positive I could pick out a large number of local players who are computer rated at my level who could not take a set off me in ten tries. Conversely, there are a number of players at my level who I am probably even money or worse against, so we'd each likely win about five of those ten tries.

My point is that depending on their mix of opponents, someone could easily not get better but still dramatically improve their win/loss record against players of a particular rating level.

And I have heard that, in theory, using the NTRP system, that the top rated player of a given level should double bagel the lowest rated player of that same level? I dont believe that will happen in UTs system as a rule. Of course, it DOES happen in reality once in awhile.....as I can show you all with one of my doubles match results last year! Hint hint......me and my partner were the ones eating the carbohydrates. We didnt get the pleasure of offering them to our opponents

At least these same guys went on to win the championship in 6.0 that season, and the season after, so it was obvious they deserved it. In fact, the next time we played them, I swear I played the best tennis of my life, and we lost 2 and 3, yet my partner and I both were happy with it:shock:

But, these types of oddities aside, overall the UT system seems to work pretty well IMO.

Brian11785 · Feb 21, 2013

beernutz said:
I would say he did not necessarily get better just because his win loss record improved as it matters a great deal WHO he played. If you let me cherry pick my opponents, I am positive I could pick out a large number of local players who are computer rated at my level who could not take a set off me in ten tries. Conversely, there are a number of players at my level who I am probably even money or worse against, so we'd each likely win about five of those ten tries.

My point is that depending on their mix of opponents, someone could easily not get better but still dramatically improve their win/loss record against players of a particular rating level.

I'll say again that I understand Ultimate's rationale in not bumping me up and am beginning to look forward to the challenge. I am not claiming that the ratings system is flawed or that my ego is damaged by having to play what I consider most likely down (regardless of how inflammatory my thread title was.) I just felt kind of bummed about having to play a bunch of matches that (aside from hopefully one or two) probably won't be very close and the potential of people getting pissy. Again, it isn't an ego thing.....I mean, it'd be pretty silly to come here bragging about how I'm really a 3.5 (you know.....the upper echelons of the game.)

and above the peons at 3.0.

But I did beat a guy 7-6, 6-3 in the fall 3.5 league that had beaten me two months earlier 6-2, 6-1.

Edit: I got an email from one of the guys I've played with a bunch in flex leagues and hit with outside of them that he made and was denied the same request. I have never lost to him, but it is always close. So at least I know he'll be in there.

omega4 · Feb 21, 2013

spot said:
People here act like its a virtue to want to play better players but ignore people in the higher league who also want to play better players. Once you let people play against higher level players just because they wish they could have that challenge then the system becomes worse for everyone else. Go out and show you don't belong at that level. If you aren't getting any straight set victories at your current level you obviously have a lot you can still learn there.

Especially when compared with players who want to play weaker opponents in league tennis, tennis playoffs, and tournaments via sandbagging, it IS a virtue to want to play better players and challenge oneself. To say that it isn't a virtue is just delusional. It's the whole premise of "challenge ladders" where players challenge higher ranked players on a ladder in order to climb up the ladder.

I do think that there's merit to playing challenging matches where the scores end up being close though. So perhaps the best solution is to set a range limit as to how high a level a lower level person can compete against.

At some point in time, everyone ends up playing someone below them in skill level.

omega4 · Feb 21, 2013

Is it possible to just quit and start a new "account" with Ultimate and self rate yourself higher?

Brian11785 said:
I'll say again that I understand Ultimate's rationale in not bumping me up and am beginning to look forward to the challenge. I am not claiming that the ratings system is flawed or that my ego is damaged by having to play what I consider most likely down (regardless of how inflammatory my thread title was.) I just felt kind of bummed about having to play a bunch of matches that (aside from hopefully one or two) probably won't be very close and the potential of people getting pissy. Again, it isn't an ego thing.....I mean, it'd be pretty silly to come here bragging about how I'm really a 3.5 (you know.....the upper echelons of the game.) and above the peons at 3.0.

But I did beat a guy 7-6, 6-3 in the fall 3.5 league that had beaten me two months earlier 6-2, 6-1.

Edit: I got an email from one of the guys I've played with a bunch in flex leagues and hit with outside of them that he made and was denied the same request. I have never lost to him, but it is always close. So at least I know he'll be in there.

omega4 · Feb 21, 2013

Does Ultimate allow players to "cherry pick" their opponents?

beernutz said:
I would say he did not necessarily get better just because his win loss record improved as it matters a great deal WHO he played. If you let me cherry pick my opponents, I am positive I could pick out a large number of local players who are computer rated at my level who could not take a set off me in ten tries. Conversely, there are a number of players at my level who I am probably even money or worse against, so we'd each likely win about five of those ten tries.

My point is that depending on their mix of opponents, someone could easily not get better but still dramatically improve their win/loss record against players of a particular rating level.

spot · Feb 21, 2013

Especially when compared with players who want to play weaker opponents in league tennis, tennis playoffs, and tournaments via sandbagging, it IS a virtue to want to play better players and challenge oneself.

I don't think that you get the difference between the incentives involved for flex league vs tournaments and team play. I haven't ever known any player who manipulated their rating to stay down a level in Ultimate Tennis to have a better chance of winning in playoffs. In USTA or tournaments then absolutely people do this. But I haven't ever seen anyone try and not get bumped- everyone wants to move up in Ultimate Tennis. (More common are people who simply default playoff matches if the drive is too far)

Once again I'm rather sure you haven't ever played Ultimate Tennis so your opinion of how the league should work is pretty meaningless.

In a flex league the purpose is to try and put everyone at a level where they can play competitive matches- people playing up at a level they don't belong is a huge problem in many leagues so I greatly appreciate Ultimate Tennis trying to make people prove it on the court that they do not belong at their current level. Pretty much EVERYONE wants to play as high as they can in Ultimate.

The only people I have ever seen manipulate the season are people who self rate too low and then will try and find the magic number where they make playoffs and move up but also where they are eligible for the postseason. I've seen people strategically default a match because they wanted to keep their rating at a certain level so that they could move up. I haven't EVER seen someone try and make sure they avoided a bump up.

Buford T Justice · Feb 21, 2013

omega4 said:
Does Ultimate allow players to "cherry pick" their opponents?

No. The only time someone can pick their opponent is if a sub is needed (i.e. a player cant play for whatever reason, and that player chooses not to provide the sub, or if someone defaults the season (due to injury, etc). In those two cases, a player may choose their opponent, but that opponent must be from the same level.

Buford T Justice · Feb 21, 2013

omega4 said:
So perhaps the best solution is to set a range limit as to how high a level a lower level person can compete against.

That is exactly what the UT rating system does within a given level.

The range to "stay put" in your current level is a year end rating of between -5.4 and +5.4. (In the smaller markets, this range to "stay put" is -6.4 to +6.4).

Buford T Justice · Feb 21, 2013

spot said:
I haven't EVER seen someone try and make sure they avoided a bump up.

Me either. Everyone wants to move up IMO. The sandbagging stuff is few and far between.

Of course, eventually, ones goal is no longer to keep moving up....but to just be able to stay put! Thats my target going forward as I suspect I have reached my top level where I can be be reliably competitive in UT.

spot · Feb 21, 2013

Buford T Justice said:
That is exactly what the UT rating system does within a given level.

The range to "stay put" in your current level is a year end rating of between -5.4 and +5.4. (In the smaller markets, this range to "stay put" is -6.4 to +6.4).

And there is a range where you have the option to move up or move down as well. You just have to earn that option through results on the court and not from just wishing you were higher.

Buford T Justice · Feb 21, 2013

spot said:
And there is a range where you have the option to move up or move down as well. You just have to earn that option through results on the court and not from just wishing you were higher.

Yes, exactly.

Very simply laid on on UTs website----

Regular Season
Move Up Requirements •If your rating is -5.4 to +5.4 you remain at your current level.
•If your rating is +5.5 to +9.9 you move up 1 level.
•If your rating is +10.0 or greater you move up 2 levels.
Move Down Requirements•If your rating is -5.5 to -9.9 you move down 1 level.
•If your rating is -10.0 or lower you move down 2 levels.
Move Down Exceptions•If you moved up to a new skill level in your last season of play and finished with a -5.5 rating or lower, you will remain at your current skill level. This rule is designed to allow your game to to adjust to the higher level of play.
•If you finished the season with a -5.5 rating or lower, but in the season prior earned a rating of -4.0 or higher, you will remain at your current level for one more season.

Playoff Move Up Requirements

If you advance to the following playoff rounds you will be moved up to the next highest skill level regardless of your end of season rating.
•Draw of 2 - champion moves up
•Draw of 4 - champion moves up
•Draw of 8 - champion moves up
•Draw of 16 - finalist and champion move up
•Draw of 32 - finalist and champion move up
•Draw of 64 - semi-finalist, finalist and champion move up
•Draw of 128 - semi-finalist, finalist and champion move up

omega4 · Feb 21, 2013

Buford T Justice said:
Me either. Everyone wants to move up IMO. The sandbagging stuff is few and far between.

Of course, eventually, ones goal is no longer to keep moving up....but to just be able to stay put! Thats my target going forward as I suspect I have reached my top level where I can be be reliably competitive in UT.

But ultimately, where you go (up or down) is a direct result of your performance on court (sandbagging or not), right?

Are attitudes about moving up to higher levels different because Ultimate is all singles, whereas the leagues are a combination of singles and doubles (or just doubles only)? Both Ultimate and the leagues have playoffs, right?

Buford T Justice · Feb 21, 2013

omega4 said:
But ultimately, where you go (up or down) is a direct result of your performance on court (sandbagging or not), right?

Yes.

But, you cant sandbag too much in UT as if you "manage" your season rating, if you then turn on the jets in the playoffs, you will get bumped.

Are attitudes about moving up to higher levels different because Ultimate is all singles, where as the leagues are a combination of singles and doubles (or just doubles only)? Both Ultimate and the leagues have playoffs, right?

UT is singles and doubles. And, yes UT has playoffs.

OrangePower · Feb 21, 2013

spot said:
If someone has 6 grueling 3 set matches that they win then they are at the right level because every match is competitive. For me the time someone should be moving up is when they are starting to have non-competitive matches at the level where they are at. You have 4 grueling 3 setters and also win a couple other matches 6-2 6-2 then the system does move you up which I think is completely fair.

People here act like its a virtue to want to play better players but ignore people in the higher league who also want to play better players. Once you let people play against higher level players just because they wish they could have that challenge then the system becomes worse for everyone else. Go out and show you don't belong at that level. If you aren't getting any straight set victories at your current level you obviously have a lot you can still learn there.

Completely agree with everything you said.

Question is what to do with players who have legitimate reason to believe that they are significantly better than where the league thinks they belong, and how to determine what is their true competitive level.

As an extreme example, if a player recently out of DI tennis wants to play, we're obviously not going to ask them to 'prove' their level by starting them out at a low level. Instead, we would take their tennis history into account. Likewise, the OP has a history at a higher level (3.5), so it seems that should be taken into consideration.

Disclaimer: I know nothing about Ultimate or other leagues outside of USTA, so I'm assuming levels between leagues are roughly equal.

spot · Feb 21, 2013

Question is what to do with players who have legitimate reason to believe that they are significantly better than where the league thinks they belong, and how to determine what is their true competitive level.

You have a lot of latitude to set your first level you play at. You are supposed to play a "verifier" to make sure that you are at the right level but if you can't make the schedule work then I believe you can just sign up wherever you wish. In order to try and stop people from self rating at the bottom of their level then they ahve a rule where if your rating is too high then you are ineligible for playoffs.

If the OP were playing Ultimate tennis for the first time then he could rate at 3.5 with no problems. Because he has already played in the league then the system is set up such that he would have to have a more dominant season in order to move up rather than just telling them that he improved over the winter.

Brian11785 · Feb 21, 2013

FYI, my last time playing 3.0 singles in Ultimate.

This could be its own thread.
- All the bagels I served, including the first set in the one match I lost.
- The third set choke in the playoffs, after being up 4-1.

Buford T Justice · Feb 21, 2013

OrangePower said:
Completely agree with everything you said.

Question is what to do with players who have legitimate reason to believe that they are significantly better than where the league thinks they belong, and how to determine what is their true competitive level.

As an extreme example, if a player recently out of DI tennis wants to play, we're obviously not going to ask them to 'prove' their level by starting them out at a low level. Instead, we would take their tennis history into account. Likewise, the OP has a history at a higher level (3.5), so it seems that should be taken into consideration.

Disclaimer: I know nothing about Ultimate or other leagues outside of USTA, so I'm assuming levels between leagues are roughly equal.

I am getting good at the cut and pastes!

From UT website-----

Ultimate Tennis Skill Levels
•2.5 Beginner - low, less than one year of play
•3.0- Beginner - mid
•3.0 Beginner - high
•3.5- Intermediate - low
•3.5 Intermediate - mid
•4.0- Intermediate - high
•4.0 Advanced - low
•4.5- Advanced - mid
•4.5 Advanced - high
•5.0 Tournament level - low
•5.5 Tournament level - high
•6.0- Division 2-3 college level
•6.0 Division 1 college level or national ranking

New League cities will begin with core skill levels and then expand to include "minus" levels shown above.

Also, as far as tennis history goes---

USTA Requirements

If you are a new member you may not rate yourself at a level below your USTA rating. You must select a level at or above your USTA level in your first season. Players found playing below their USTA level are subject to being removed anytime during the regular season or the playoffs. When found, the Ultimate Tennis office will review the case and make a ruling.

So, if someone out of a D1 school joins the league, if they dont register at 6.0 and are caught, they will be kicked out.

Stuck playing in a flex league I'm too good for.....

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