who wins - male 4.0 vs female 5.0
- Thread starter luvforty
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LOL, just looked those girls up (as they're play seemed very good), they're both in the top 500 (in the world) now. So not exactly 5.0's there!!!
TomT
Hall of Fame
That's entirely possible.
I did after all qualify my opinions with: "But this is all just unqualified guessing on my part. Really, being a very inexperienced player myself (although I've watched tennis throughout my life), I have no well formed (or very informed) opinion on this."We're talking about the girls playing from 2:04 to 3:48 in this vid (right?):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cle6Akk5tac
If so, then from 2:04 to 2:12 I see a weak serve, an ok return, some decent but not particularly compelling hitting in a 4-stroke rally ended by netting an easy forehand.
From 2:13 to 2:16, a decent serve, soft bunted return, easy volley netted.
From 2:19 to 2:22, a decent serve, nice return, and an unforced error.
From 2:25 to 2:58, a weak serve, weak return, and lots of weak shots in a rally that was less compelling than some of the 15 to 20 shot rallies I've seen between sub 4.0 players. (In fact, not long ago I watched what had to be about a 25 shot rally between a couple of 3.25 grinders that was absolutely scintillating compared to this rally.)
From 3:00 to 3:48, a weak serve, weak return, another long rally with lots of weak hitting.
I'm sorry but from what I've seen the solid 3.5s to 4.0s I play against simply wouldn't let those girls into a point -- which is what I think would happen in a match between the younger male 4.0s in the first vid and these girls.
As for the backhand overhead angle winner, it was a nice shot, but not overly impressive. Most any player above 3.0, if they have any athletic aptitude at all, should be able to pull something like that off once in a while. Even I've done it.
I live this scenario: I'm a 4.0 in my 40's and started playing in my early 30's. I win around 50% at 4.0 and rarely at 4.5, so I think my rating is accurate. My wife, also in 40's, played since she was a kid and played high level club tennis in Europe (not pro, but likely D1 level). She is rated 4.5. I can take a set here and there but have never beaten her in a full match. I do suspect she is closer to 5 than 4.5.
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TomT
Hall of Fame
Keep in mind that of the 5 points shown of those D1 girls in question, supposedly 5.0 to 5.5 girls, 3 of the points (2, 2, and 4 shots, respectively) ended in low level errors. The serves are much weaker than the male serves (the one girl couldn't break a raw egg with her serve). The young males are faster and stronger in general, and probably winning an inordinately high percentage of their service points.
But I'll give you that maybe, just maybe, in a match with lots of long points, those girls would generally outgrind, outsteady the young 4.0 males. Ok?
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From 2:25 to 2:58, a weak serve, weak return, and lots of weak shots in a rally that was less compelling than some of the 15 to 20 shot rallies I've seen between sub 4.0 players. (In fact, not long ago I watched what had to be about a 25 shot rally between a couple of 3.25 grinders that was absolutely scintillating compared to this rally.)
From 3:00 to 3:48, a weak serve, weak return, another long rally with lots of weak hitting.
I'm sorry but from what I've seen the solid 3.5s to 4.0s I play against simply wouldn't let those girls into a point -- which is what I think would happen in a match between the younger male 4.0s in the first vid and these girls.
As for the backhand overhead angle winner, it was a nice shot, but not overly impressive. Most any player above 3.0, if they have any athletic aptitude at all, should be able to pull something like that off once in a while. Even I've done it.
LOL. You definitely have no idea what you're watching. The rallies aren't exactly "compelling" to watch, but if a 4.0 or lower player tried to play with them, they would fail miserably.
2:33 - Pair of heavy topspin groundstrokes.
2:36 - Moonball, again with heavy top. That ball hits 8 ft up on the back fence if the other girl don't take a chop at it. That chop shot off a ball coming off the court with that much spin is no easy shot.
2:39 - Short ground stroke is a mistake and the response is a penetrating slice backhand that pins the other girl behind the baseline and forces a weak return.
2:48 - Even better slice backhand to the corner requires a lunging forehand to save.
2:50 - Overhead to the forehand corner is run down (excellent defense).
2:52 - Penetrating slice to the backhand corner is once again run down with a "squash shot" defensive lob.
2:55 - Running backwards, back to net backhand overhead lands on the opposite service box corner for a winner.
4.0's don't have ANY of those shot much less all of them.
It doesn't make sense that a 4.0 wan and a 4.0 women could be anything other than equal. For the system to make sense a 4.5 women should beat a 4.0 man. I think it is commonly believed that even the top ranked women in the world would have a hard time hanging with a "pedestrian" 100 to 75 ranked man. To me it makes more sense to assume there are no 7.0 female players in the world than to skew ratings.
I'm not sure if that makes sense.
I'm not sure if that makes sense.
Cheetah
Hall of Fame
That's entirely possible.
We're talking about the girls playing from 2:04 to 3:48 in this vid (right?):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cle6Akk5tac
If so, then from 2:04 to 2:12 I see a weak serve, an ok return, some decent but not particularly compelling hitting in a 4-stroke rally ended by netting an easy forehand.
From 2:13 to 2:16, a decent serve, soft bunted return, easy volley netted.
From 2:19 to 2:22, a decent serve, nice return, and an unforced error.
From 2:25 to 2:58, a weak serve, weak return, and lots of weak shots in a rally that was less compelling than some of the 15 to 20 shot rallies I've seen between sub 4.0 players. (In fact, not long ago I watched what had to be about a 25 shot rally between a couple of 3.25 grinders that was absolutely scintillating compared to this rally.)
From 3:00 to 3:48, a weak serve, weak return, another long rally with lots of weak hitting.
I'm sorry but from what I've seen the solid 3.5s to 4.0s I play against simply wouldn't let those girls into a point -- which is what I think would happen in a match between the younger male 4.0s in the first vid and these girls.
As for the backhand overhead angle winner, it was a nice shot, but not overly impressive. Most any player above 3.0, if they have any athletic aptitude at all, should be able to pull something like that off once in a while. Even I've done it.
No way. those girls would crush a 4.0 male.
TomT
Hall of Fame
I have an idea.
Ok, there's lots of nice hitting and movement. But not substantially unlike many of the rallies I watch at my public courts between ~ 4.0 + or - players.
Oh please. Even I have all those shots. The 4.0 males I've seen can do everything that those girls did in the video, and do it generally faster and harder.
As I mentioned, I'll give you that those girls might outsteady a lot of 4.0 males. But I know at least 2 guys who would beat those girls badly. They would win an obscenely high percentage of their service points, and break somewhere along the line for a relatively easy win.
TomT
Hall of Fame
There must be a really wide range of abilities that NTRP 4.0 refers to. Anyway, I'll stand by my current opinion. I have seen, first hand, 4.0 males who I think would beat either of those girls.
TomT
Hall of Fame
The system makes relative sense. You have to take into consideration that NTRP 4.0 for a female is in relation to female competition and NTRP 4.0 for male is in relation to male competition. In other words, there's no absolute objective standard of tennis proficiency that NTRP ratings refer to. And thus, a 4.0 male would probably (but not necessarily) always be expected to crush a 4.0 female.
It's all very 'iffy' and competition-specific dependent.
Cheetah
Hall of Fame
why? because they hit harder?
sunof tennis
Professional
Played on both 4.0 and 4.5 leagues. These young ladies are much better than the 4.0s I have seen. I understand that this can be location dependent. I have seen 4.5s that certainly can give them a run for their money.
TomT
Hall of Fame
No. At least not necessarily. Though if a 4.0 male would happen to hit consistently harder, then that would be something in his favor.
I think it mostly has to do with my feeling, based on the serves and returns I saw in the women's video in question, that a strong 4.0 male would likely win all of his serving games, and would have a much easier time doing it than either of those girls would have in winning their service games. In the male service games I don't see there being any extended rallies where those girls' great steady and consistent shotmaking and point construction would be a factor. That's the key.
Then, considering how weak the one girl's serve was, I see a strong 4.0 male breaking her at least once a set. The other girl with the stronger serve would be more difficult to break, but her serve still didn't look to me to be nearly as effective as most 4.0 males I've seen.
Assuming that a 4.0 NTRP for a male would generally be equivalent to ~ a 4.7 NTRP for a woman, then it's not much of a step to suppose that a 4.0 male could beat a 5.0 female.
As mentioned before, there's a wide range in the meanings of these ratings. Can we agree that some 4.0 men can beat some 5.0 women, and vice versa, and leave it at that? Even if we had a few "battles of the sexes" on these terms to refer to, it would still, given the ambiguity of NTRP based ratings, be impossible to make a meaningful generalization about it, imho.
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Cheetah
Hall of Fame
ok. i respect your opinion but i don't see it that way at all.
A 4.0 player basically stinks compared to a 5.0. a 5.0 is highly skilled. They return better, serve better (not harder; better) are more consistent, have better control, better shot selection, better footwork, greater shot selection, better anticipation, more experience etc etc.
4.0's are going to double faulting, shanking returns no matter how slow they are, trying to go for winners at inopportune times, will be out of position often, poor footwork, will have more weaknesses than a 5.0 who will spot and exploit better than a 4.0. 4.0's will most likely have a lower tennis iq, will be less match tough, more impatient, weak at net, approach the net at the wrong time, poor 2nd serve, etc etc.
5.0 woman wins easily. It's not about power and serve speed.
A 4.0 player basically stinks compared to a 5.0. a 5.0 is highly skilled. They return better, serve better (not harder; better) are more consistent, have better control, better shot selection, better footwork, greater shot selection, better anticipation, more experience etc etc.
4.0's are going to double faulting, shanking returns no matter how slow they are, trying to go for winners at inopportune times, will be out of position often, poor footwork, will have more weaknesses than a 5.0 who will spot and exploit better than a 4.0. 4.0's will most likely have a lower tennis iq, will be less match tough, more impatient, weak at net, approach the net at the wrong time, poor 2nd serve, etc etc.
5.0 woman wins easily. It's not about power and serve speed.
Cheetah, I claim 3.5, hit my first serve around 100, and almost never doublefault my second serves, and I ALWAYS swing at the second serve FASTER than my first serve swing.
I can play more than 10 sets before a careless doublefault occurs. Maybe one in a match total, at worse.
Not all 4.0's are the same. The recent bump ups from last year suck. I know two different 4.0's who played Div11 singles just 5 years ago, but play tourneys once a year since.
I can play more than 10 sets before a careless doublefault occurs. Maybe one in a match total, at worse.
Not all 4.0's are the same. The recent bump ups from last year suck. I know two different 4.0's who played Div11 singles just 5 years ago, but play tourneys once a year since.
TomT
Hall of Fame
Understood. I have to respect where you're coming from also, because it's probably the case that you have lots more experience with these levels of players than I do..
The only supposed 5.0 women I've seen are the subjects of our debate (from the video). The 4.0 males I've seen play and played aren't as bad, in any respects, as you describe above. They would beat the 4.0 males in the videos, imo, and at least two of the 4.0 males of my experience would, I think, beat those girls. All of the 4.0 males I've seen play or played have better serves, in all respects, than either of the two girls.
We can agree to disagree on the meaningfulness of a generalized statement regarding the relative strengths and weaknesses of 5.0 females vs 4.0 males, and as for the resolution of any disputes regarding matchups of certain male and female players ... the bottom line is that there's only one way to find out. Bring on the battles of the sexes!
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Cheetah
Hall of Fame
Yes but OP said no rising and no falling 4.0's. That counts you out. haha.
Cheetah
Hall of Fame
Got me there..
A 4.0 falling to 3.5, from A/Open would have a consistent serve, if no eyesight, no practice, no movement, and don't care about shots after 4.
yes plus u have eon's of experience. u can win just by the higher tennis iq and out-thinking them.
The problem with the question in the OP is that the definition of 4.0 male is so broad. There are lower level doubles guys who would not win a point against a 5.0 woman. I've played guys in the playoffs who would equal or beat the Harvard women's team players (and when bumped up to 4.5 the next year were some of the best 4.5 players around).
Experience is overated. If Talk Tennis has taught me anything, it's that overweight 4.0s still possesses the requisite athleticism and fitness to play at a high level, plus just by virtue of being male they can bash the ball consistently with pinpoint accuracy. Tennis smarts.... pffft ! Hahaha..
Lets go drink a beer and bash on the ladies sometime???
She's probably a 5.0 maybe feeling like 4.5 here and there if busy with work and kids
. Does she miss the club system? I wish we had it here!I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but this would be VERY rare in my circles (4.0 guy that hits with a few 3.5 girls).
She's probably a 5.0 maybe feeling like 4.5 here and there if busy with work and kids
And BTW... It's about accuracy and consistency. I'm more athletic (former college athlete and still in shape), but she can put the ball on a dime and is super consistent. Serve is nothing special, but she can hit spin, flat, drops, and generate good pace due to great technique. My serve is bigger and she blocks it back every time. It's not so much about sheer athleticism, guys.
Oh for sure. Consistency at the rec level is about 80% of the game.
beernutz
Hall of Fame
As well they should since they are at least 6.0s according to the USTA self rate guidelines.
Div. 1 Top 75 ranked college team or player (commited *sic* to, playing, or played), Age under 30, minimum rating 6.0. Those girls were playing in the 2010 NCAA tournament on ranked teams (Virginia was 25th and Charleston was 65th) hence they are 6.0s.
http://www.itatennis.com/AwardsAndR..._2010_-_Division_I_Women_s_Final_Rankings.htm
and
http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/USTA_Import/USTA/dps/doc_13_7372.pdf
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