Does Murray-Ferrer prove courts need to be sped up and the tour needs more variety

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SassyRamirez

Banned
What do you guys think? It was often cited that the 90's Wimbledon matches between Ivanisevic and Sampras, particularly the 94 Final, is what jumpstarted this whole process of slowing down every surface and surface homogenization.

Do absolute ugly, disgusting, low quality, grind-fest matches like Murray-Ferrer (and even Djokovic-Murray) prove that the ITF/ATP/WTA need to seriously consider speeding up some of the ridiculously slow surfaces on tour such as AO, IW, Miami, etc? To bring back surface variety?

If not we'll probably get boring counterpunching ping-pong grind-fest finals on slow-as-molasses courts for eternity.

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mattennis

Hall of Fame
I don't mind AO, IW and Miami being this slow IF they change back Wimbledon, US OPEN and most indoor tournaments to really fast conditions (and leave clay alone, not trying to make it faster).
 
S

SassyRamirez

Banned
mattennis said:
I don't mind AO, IW and Miami being this slow IF they change back Wimbledon, US OPEN and most indoor tournaments to really fast conditions (and leave clay alone, not trying to make it faster).
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I still think this slow is too much: AO, IW, and Miami can still be considered slow whilst being much faster than they are now. See Rebound Ace.

I agree generally though, I don't care about their being slow events on tour if they speed back up the ones that are supposed to be fast.
 
marc45

marc45

G.O.A.T.
ben rothenberg the tennis writer from the new york times just tweeted that the quicker fix is simply to play with the lighter balls the wta uses
 
West Coast Ace

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
It will take some big men to put aside their egos and admit they swung the pendulum too far and bring it back. And that probably won't happen until they see a sustained period of declining revenues which are directly attributed to the play and not the absence of Fed and Nadal.
 
stringertom

stringertom

Bionic Poster
It's not the court speed that matters...Haas' run proves you can succeed with an aggressive game plan.

The problem "court" is the small one between the ears of these two players. I cannot believe how flat Murray came out today, especially with the #2 ranking in the balance. As much progress as Lendl has made with him, he is nowhere close to conquering his mental demons. Today was a prime example. As for Ferrer, he's never going to turn the corner vs any of the top 4. If he can't beat a very subpar Murray today, he may as well pack it up and return to his 250/500 parade, cash his checks and plan his retirement days without a major trophy on the mantle.
 
marc45

marc45

G.O.A.T.
btw, murray said yesterday that slow courts aid longevity..serve and volleying is hard, those guys ended up having a lot of injuries he said...also said training is so great now
 
Relinquis

Relinquis

Hall of Fame
whats needed is variety... i don't mind miami being slow hardcourt, or even clay. just make a few fast hardcourt tournaments later in the year and turn a few slow US hardcourts into grass.

also, the endorsement of ivo karlovic isn't exactly much support of the speeding up argument. the guy is just a servebot*. if i wanted to see home runs i'd watch baseball...


* can't play real tennis.
 
C

ctoth666

Banned
West Coast Ace said:
It will take some big men to put aside their egos and admit they swung the pendulum too far and bring it back. And that probably won't happen until they see a sustained period of declining revenues which are directly attributed to the play and not the absence of Fed and Nadal.
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This. Wealthy white men don't like to admit they're wrong about anything, even at the expense of the people who are affected by their decisions, because they love that cash flow. That basically sums up every problem in the world today.
 
Mustard

Mustard

Bionic Poster
I keeping telling people that the string technology is the reason for the long rallies and the scarcity of "variety", due to the prevelance of heavy topspin. It makes it harder to hit outright winners.
 
S

SassyRamirez

Banned
Mustard said:
I keeping telling people that the string technology is the reason for the long rallies and the scarcity of "variety", due to the prevelance of heavy topspin. It makes it harder to hit outright winners.
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No, it's the court and ball conditions.

Do you really think you know more than current and former pro players? Jesus christ.

I've personally played on the Miami courts and trust me, they are slow as hell and it is ridiculously hard to hit through them.
 
Mustard

Mustard

Bionic Poster
SassyRamirez said:
No, it's the court and ball conditions.

Do you really think you know more than current and former pro players? Jesus christ.

I've personally played on the Miami courts and trust me, they are slow as hell and it is ridiculously hard to hit through them.
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Watch a 1990s match in somewhere like Miami. It's not as fast as you think.
 
S

SassyRamirez

Banned
Mustard said:
Watch a 1990s match in somewhere like Miami. It's not as fast as you think.
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I watch matches from the 90s all the time. 90s Wimbledon, 90s French Open, 90s fast indoor HC, 90s slow HC., etc.

Trust me, court conditions are very slow and homogenized now. The likes of Federer, Murray, Tipsarevic, etc will attest to this.

Keep rambling on about topspin though.
 
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T

Torres

Banned
Why is it sudddenly related to the court and balls?

Ferrer v Murray is always a bit of grindfest since they're both predominately grinders (particularly Ferrer) who favour playing percentages. In terms of entertainment value it was always going to be a poor match up in terms of styles.

Haas didn't seem to have any problems hitting winners or creating an exciting match against Dolgopolov:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQE1DFYGICA
 
Mustard

Mustard

Bionic Poster
SassyRamirez said:
I watch matches from the 90s all the time. 90s Wimbledon, 90s French Open, 90s fast indoor HC, 90s slow HC., etc.

Trust me, court conditions are very slow and homogenized now. The likes of Federer, Murray, Tipsarevic, etc will attest to this.

Keep rambling on about topspin though.
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I will, because it's the truth. People need to stop obsessing so much about the courts and start looking at the string technology also, if they insist on moaning all the time. In reality though, they are just the modern equivalent of the "power is killing tennis" brigade of the 1990s.
 
Andres

Andres

G.O.A.T.
Gasquet had no trouble hitting winners. Neither did Tsonga.
One shouldn't read too much into a Ferrer-Murray match.
They don't have enough firepower to hit through the other.
 
PhrygianDominant

PhrygianDominant

Hall of Fame
Andres said:
Gasquet had no trouble hitting winners. Neither did Tsonga.
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But against whom? Who made the final? the two best retrievers that's who.

One way or another, we can't have the combination of a slow court and poly strings. It makes winners too hard, points too long, and UEs too common. Bad for ratings, bad for players, bad for tennis.
 
stringertom

stringertom

Bionic Poster
Andres said:
Gasquet had no trouble hitting winners. Neither did Tsonga.
One shouldn't read too much into a Ferrer-Murray match.
They don't have enough firepower to hit through the other.
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I think it's "brainpower to outplay" the other. This was a match either could have won outright with a little mental tenacity. Murray managed to win with a lot of help from across the net.
 
Elite

Elite

Semi-Pro
Certain HCs, whilst not perfect, are tolerable. This, on the other hand, is disgraceful - the court is simply way too slow. Sure we're getting longer rallies, but 90% of them are finishing with UEs and not winners. It's ugly tennis.
 
C

corners

Legend
I agree with ARod and Ivo. I'm biased as a Fed fan, but I feel that Wimbledon now produces the best tennis to watch. Baseline rallies on the slow grass, sure, but there is a sense of urgency to them. Pushing doesn't work; a player must have a purpose in the rally and be looking to end the point before the other guy does. At the highest levels, that is how tennis should be, in my opinion.

Wars of attrition, as we saw in the Miami final, don't test, or reward, all the skills that these guys have. Fitness and consistency, as well as doggedness and tenacity, are what win trophies on slow hardcourts. These are things champions must have, but I would rather see lions pouncing and eagles swooping than dogs running with their tongues hanging out.
 
Goosehead

Goosehead

Legend
Andres said:
Gasquet had no trouble hitting winners. Neither did Tsonga.
One shouldn't read too much into a Ferrer-Murray match.
They don't have enough firepower to hit through the other.
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yes..remember when gasgay was fizzing those backhands past murrays nose..court wasn't too slow then.
 
C

corners

Legend
Goosehead said:
yes..remember when gasgay was fizzing those backhands past murrays nose..court wasn't too slow then.
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Yeah, but he couldn't keep it up on the slow courts. Once Murray upped his consistency and prolonged the rallies in the second set Gasquet started getting tired and missing more often. If you like defensive baseline play these courts are for you.
 
Goosehead

Goosehead

Legend
corners said:
Yeah, but he couldn't keep it up on the slow courts. Once Murray upped his consistency and prolonged the rallies in the second set Gasquet started getting tired and missing more often. If you like defensive baseline play these courts are for you.
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think he was undone by the blisters he had though..like murray in AO Final.
 
Relinquis

Relinquis

Hall of Fame
we just need more variety on tour... if all courts are the same we'll get cookie cutter pros with limited skillsets.

there is a reason federer is so good. he was an all courter who had to deal both with quick surfaces and slow ones against server and vollyers and baseliners (attacking and pushing). this forced him to develop the movement, the power, the touch and intelligence needed to compete with everyone across different eras and using different string tech...

servebots can tweet about it all they want. their solution is just as bad as the grinders and the suits. what we need is different conditions and surfaces in different tournaments so we can have complete tennis players that can't hide behind a big serve or the speed to run down balls and mindlessly hit them cross court with topspin.

we have to get the tournaments competing among one another on who has the most interesting tennis, rather than making them all the same.
 
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