This final, this court... this is a shame to the sport.
- Thread starter augustobt
- Start date
give ANYONE from this era a wooden racquet with gut strings and see how they do. The tech has drastically changed the game, in my mind it's for the better
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
I didn't say he did.
Serve and volley is completely different than net points. Can you imagine a better approach shot than your serve? I would NOT recommend coming into the net off an approach shot against Nadal because he's so fast and his passing shots are so good and have so much spin. But as Gasquet proved, I would HIGHLY recommend serving and volleying against Nadal as there's a wide open court to volley into and during the times when Nadal stands 20 feet behind the baseline to receive serve (which he did NOT do against Gasquet as he was receiving much closer to the baseline but S&V still worked). Once you get into a rally with Nadal, your odds of winning the point at the net becomes very slim.
Besides, your chances of beating Nadal from the baseline are basically zero so why not just serve and volley on everything? What do you have to lose?
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BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Give EVERYONE in this era a wood racquet strung with gut and I'd bet Federer would dominate everyone, including Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, etc.give ANYONE from this era a wooden racquet with gut strings and see how they do. The tech has drastically changed the game, in my mind it's for the better
Crose
Professional
Too bad they don't use wood racquets, and Nadal has owned Federer since he was a teenager. Get over it.
6-1 6-3 6-0
Banned
If you'd like, you can create your own fantasy draw with players playing with wooden racquets, and even invent imaginary scorelines!
It'd be equally as futile as your post.
doobiedoodoo
Rookie
Nadal owns Federer .....on clay.
10is
Professional
Around 2006/2007 - when the burgeoning Federer/Nadal rivalry started courting the media's attention.
Not really -- slowness is relative. Compared to the newer post 2007 Plexicushion surface, Rebound Ace was lightening quick.
Surface homogenization via the depreciation of surface speed has really distorted the perception of "quickness" especially for newer tennis fans. For instance, the French is the only major which is actually "relatively" faster than it had been in the past.
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
That's because Nadal doesn't even play "tennis". He plays ping pong on a larger court using modern technology. :shock:
Ajosin
Rookie
Right, but while the ball is in the air speed has been increasing. Players today are stronger than years past. Serves are faster at least until they bounce, which is 75% of their flight path to to opponents baseline. Deep ground strokes are flying faster most of the time up until they bounce a few inches inside the baseline. Also, the balls don't really move much move slower, it's just that they bounce higher and their speed towards the back of the court is turned into upward speed.
In the end slower courts do reward stepping back from the baseline so you maximize the % time the ball is traveling at low speed, but a skilled opponent can take advantage of your court situation.
In the end tennis players today are just stronger than ever. Training and diets are more strict. Equipment is better. Slower courts make for fascinating gut-wrenching tide-turning rallies that end in standing ovations.
The game is better for it in my opinion.
dooknookem
Rookie
lol @ serve and volley.
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Serves and groundstrokes today are not really that much faster than it was 20 years ago. Even at the same serve speeds, there used to be a lot more aces than there are now because the court surfaces were faster. The slower surfaces are also why few choose to serve and volley nowadays despite having serves just as good as the serves 20 years ago. Groundstrokes actually used to be faster 20 years ago than they are now because most pros used to hit much flatter, whereas, most pros today hit with lots more spin which slows down the ball. Agassi and Sampras used to crush the ball flat whereas pros like Nadal these days just spin it. Even Federer commented during a charity match that tennis used to be all about pace but now it's all about spin.
Ajosin
Rookie
It's not always perfect but you can expect that in general if a beats B and B beats c then a beats b. you'll always find outlier matches that are the exception to the rule, but overall you will see that top 10 players beat top 50 players and top 50 players beat 100 players. On the rare occasions that they meet top 10 player beat top 100 players (with exceptions allowed of course).
Anyway, Nadal is better than Sampras even if you want to ignore the data point that links them (Federer). Reason is that Sampras would have tough matches against Nadal on HC/Grasss (staring at a lot of passing shots) while Nadal would destroy Sampras on Clay.
Ajosin
Rookie
Sorry, "then a beats c"
jackson vile
G.O.A.T.
Exactly, the courts were slowed down a long time again. In fact a lot of S&V fans were angry, but Federer fans were quite happy.
I agree! They killed tennis around 2002 or so by slowing down the courts everywhere and a baseline basher, of all players, went on to win 5 straight titles at Wimbledon & the U.S Open! What have they done to my beloved sport?!
jackson vile
G.O.A.T.
Federer uses all the same technology that Nadal does, Federer's racket is 90sqin, a wooden racket is 65sqin.
Stop pretending he is a pure player, the only guys that could play with wooden rackets are now retired. Sampras played with wooden rackets, this is one of the many reason his racket was over 16oz
Stop pretending he is a pure player, the only guys that could play with wooden rackets are now retired. Sampras played with wooden rackets, this is one of the many reason his racket was over 16oz
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Who's racquet is closer to the feel, size, and weight of a wood racquet?
Nadal's or Federer's?
Oh, and Sampras's racquet was almost 14 oz., not "over 16 oz.".
http://www.hdtennis.com/grs/pro_racquet_specs/sampras_wilson.html
Because eventually people will only see Bang, Bang balls due to racket technology that's why court needs to be slowed down. Let's bring back wooden racket and faster court to balance the game all over again. Would you guys want to see one, two rally shots? Just my opinion.
Agreed. This looked like the French Open. The US Open stated they are "happy" with the court speed. God help us.
How about speed the US Open courts back up and then adjust as necessary. One or two huge FH's should be enough to hit a clean winner at the US open. Not 8.
ksbh
Banned
JV, always a voice of reason!
Yes I remember those days thinking- is this the same sport that I watched in the 80's and 90's?
Yes I remember those days thinking- is this the same sport that I watched in the 80's and 90's?
Polvorin
Professional
Don't forget that Roger actually played with Sampras' racket in his younger years (perhaps not leaded up as much)...when they played at Wimbledon they were both using the 6.0 85"
tkoziol
Rookie
Such a shame. No variety at all:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHbCLuEXfpM&feature=youtu.be&t=39m4s
What match were you guys watching? What else is there? Want them to flip the racquet around and hit the ball with the handle?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHbCLuEXfpM&feature=youtu.be&t=39m4s
What match were you guys watching? What else is there? Want them to flip the racquet around and hit the ball with the handle?
Am I the only person who gets excited watching this?:?
jackson vile
G.O.A.T.
Sampras used to play with wooden racket, Federer did not. Sampras' racket was over 16oz, Federer's was never even close to that. Hell, one oz is a lot of weight and Federer is at least 3oz away.
There is no comparison, Federer fans need to stop with the delusions.
Federer could never do what Sampras and other past players could do.
Federer could only defeat Sampras after Wimbledon's surface was changed so that you could rally, and the court/balls were slowed down. It is no coincidence that Sampras started to have troubles after 2000.
USO, was also slowed down after 2000. How else could someone with Hewitt's style defeat Pete Sampras on the fastest major hard court?
Federer fan's did not complain about the courts being slow then, or after, but S&V fans sure did
There is no comparison, Federer fans need to stop with the delusions.
Federer could never do what Sampras and other past players could do.
Federer could only defeat Sampras after Wimbledon's surface was changed so that you could rally, and the court/balls were slowed down. It is no coincidence that Sampras started to have troubles after 2000.
USO, was also slowed down after 2000. How else could someone with Hewitt's style defeat Pete Sampras on the fastest major hard court?
Federer fan's did not complain about the courts being slow then, or after, but S&V fans sure did
jackson vile
G.O.A.T.
Neither racket is closer to a wood racket. These are full carbon rackets, with co-poly strings, Federer uses teflon string savers as well to increase bite and spin.
Wooden rackets are ~16oz, 65sqin, and centralized weight.
The wooden racket Sampras played with growing up was over 16oz, period.
Understand this, Federer uses co-poly, this allows him to string at super low tensions, which increases spin and the sweet spot. The racket is polarized, allowing again, for more spin production. Federer's game is highly dependent on spin, his RPMs are second only to Nadal.
Without all of that modern technology Federer would never be able to produce that kind of spin, and thus he could never play the kind of tennis he played at his absolute peak.
While Sampras' game would be extremely comparable.
Look how badly Federer is shanking balls, while Sampras did not at the same age. Now imagine Federer with a 65sqin racket, that is 25sqin smaller hitting area, now take away the low tension (relative), now take away the co-poly, now take away the string savers.
These are just more Federer mythos, you guys sure like to pretend.
Wooden rackets are ~16oz, 65sqin, and centralized weight.
The wooden racket Sampras played with growing up was over 16oz, period.
Understand this, Federer uses co-poly, this allows him to string at super low tensions, which increases spin and the sweet spot. The racket is polarized, allowing again, for more spin production. Federer's game is highly dependent on spin, his RPMs are second only to Nadal.
Without all of that modern technology Federer would never be able to produce that kind of spin, and thus he could never play the kind of tennis he played at his absolute peak.
While Sampras' game would be extremely comparable.
Look how badly Federer is shanking balls, while Sampras did not at the same age. Now imagine Federer with a 65sqin racket, that is 25sqin smaller hitting area, now take away the low tension (relative), now take away the co-poly, now take away the string savers.
These are just more Federer mythos, you guys sure like to pretend.
Ajosin
Rookie
Judging by the standing ovations at NY, no.
We want some of those shots to come up more often than a few times per match.
Awesome informative post, good read.
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Really? Then how come all of my wood Dunlop Maxply Forts weighed only 13 oz.? These were the same wood racquets that hundreds of pros played with.
Federer would play very well with a wood racquet because of his horizontal swingpath. The co-poly is in his crosses and he uses gut mains and the mains are what produces the spin.
Federer shanks more than Sampras because Federer hits the ball earlier off the bounce and has much higher racquet head speed than Sampras. Sampras used a heavier racquet and swung much slower.
And Sampras used a wood Wilson Jack Kramer Pro Staff which was NOT 16 oz.! Even the Medium version was only 14 oz. And the ProStaff 85 he used during his pro career was under 14 oz.
The guy who would have major problems adjusting to a wood racquet is Nadal.
And here's Federer with his wood Wilson Jack Kramer Autograph. :shock:
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Well, if Nadal can do it, why can't Federer? Everyone agrees that Federer is way more talented than Nadal, right?
SLD76
G.O.A.T.
Really? Then how come all of my wood Dunlop Maxply Forts weighed only 13 oz.? These were the same wood racquets that hundreds of pros played with.
Federer would play very well with a wood racquet because of his horizontal swingpath. The co-poly is in his crosses and he uses gut mains and the mains are what produces the spin.
Federer shanks more than Sampras because Federer hits the ball earlier off the bounce and has much higher racquet head speed than Sampras. Sampras used a heavier racquet and swung much slower.
And Sampras used a wood Wilson Jack Kramer Pro Staff which was NOT 16 oz.! Even the Medium version was only 14 oz. And the ProStaff 85 he used during his pro career was under 14 oz.
The guy who would have major problems adjusting to a wood racquet is Nadal.
And here's Federer with his wood Wilson Jack Kramer Autograph. :shock:
What horizontal swingpath? His windshield wiper forehand?
swordtennis
G.O.A.T.
"He will do anything to win." - Mary Carillo on Nadal
"He does not seem to even be breathing hard?!" - JMac on Nadal after one mind blowing rally.
Does seem to be more of a Tour de France aka Tour de Force now.
I turned the final off during the 3rd set. Djokovic was breathing hard and was doing everything to just hang with Nadal only to have floaters come back right on the baseline. Just knew it was over and it was sorta boring. Djokovic blasting serves and ground strokes only to get a very few by on this court.
The USO is very close to AO now in the type of play it produces.
Very sad to this tennis fanatic. USO was my fav Major. However the SF between Stan and Djokovic was awesome. Two evenly matched players produced some great stuff.
"He does not seem to even be breathing hard?!" - JMac on Nadal after one mind blowing rally.
Does seem to be more of a Tour de France aka Tour de Force now.
I turned the final off during the 3rd set. Djokovic was breathing hard and was doing everything to just hang with Nadal only to have floaters come back right on the baseline. Just knew it was over and it was sorta boring. Djokovic blasting serves and ground strokes only to get a very few by on this court.
The USO is very close to AO now in the type of play it produces.
Very sad to this tennis fanatic. USO was my fav Major. However the SF between Stan and Djokovic was awesome. Two evenly matched players produced some great stuff.
THE court is too slow.
swordtennis
G.O.A.T.
I think you might be right. I for one am not one to say the courts are a ton slower. I think tech and other things disguise the actual court composition. But def there is a big change in the play at the USO. It just not run and gun tennis anymore. For multiple reasons I am not sure....
PeteD
Legend
I remember maybe 10 years ago, Johnny Mac was announcing more and he was saying big servers would take over tennis. He proposed shortening the box by 6 inches. That would have required a public discussion and change in the rules. This thing they did with the courts, on the other hand, has never been publicized. Just a backroom deal intended to make somebody more money somehow. Sneaky creepy.
It was intended to stop what tennis had become and it worked but they need to
start speeding them back up because the pendulum has swung too far.
Really? Then how come all of my wood Dunlop Maxply Forts weighed only 13 oz.? These were the same wood racquets that hundreds of pros played with.
Federer would play very well with a wood racquet because of his horizontal swingpath. The co-poly is in his crosses and he uses gut mains and the mains are what produces the spin.
Federer shanks more than Sampras because Federer hits the ball earlier off the bounce and has much higher racquet head speed than Sampras. Sampras used a heavier racquet and swung much slower.
And Sampras used a wood Wilson Jack Kramer Pro Staff which was NOT 16 oz.! Even the Medium version was only 14 oz. And the ProStaff 85 he used during his pro career was under 14 oz.
The guy who would have major problems adjusting to a wood racquet is Nadal.
And here's Federer with his wood Wilson Jack Kramer Autograph. :shock:
Djokovic really needs to read that magazine..
gregor.b
Professional
Careful! You don't want the truth to break into mainstream society do you?
They are all superhuman, even though they look, talk, walk and sound just like us.
They must be GODS!
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
This one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4VxccAUPto
Federer's swingpath is much more horizontal than vertical and he swings with almost a straight arm. Contrast that with Nadal's swingpath which is much more vertical than horizontal with his reverse forehands.
10is
Professional
10is
Professional
Well said! ... and the "Tour de France" quip rings true in more ways than one.
robin7
Hall of Fame
PeteD
Legend
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