mxmx serve

Chas Tennis · Feb 4, 2014

mxmx said:
**Feedback more than a year since the upload**

My serve has changed since I uploaded this video...I am surprised how much some of the tips here by members helped me to improve. The toss-up is so so important imo...
...........................................................

What determines the speed of the serve is the final racket head acceleration to impact. This occurs over the last 25 or 30 milliseconds before impact in a high level serve. Your video camera, if 30 fps, takes one frame every 33 milliseconds. It is not capable of showing the motion of the most important part of your serve.

Besides the low frame rate, the motion blur in your video is so large that the racket cannot be seen at impact. The side view is also important and the racket will have even more motion blur from the side. Direct sunlight would improve the motion blur to some degree. Your camera is useless, and maybe misleading, for the fastest, most important part of the serve.

I posted a very low cost camera with 240 fps and a fast shutter speed for videoing the serve. It can show the fastest details of the serve leading to impact.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=484212&highlight=black+friday+sale+camera

mxmx · Feb 5, 2014

hi Chas

Thank you for a lot of details on this. Where did you learn this?
Have you applied this to your serve?

Chas Tennis · Feb 5, 2014

I have posted a lot on internal shoulder rotation and the serve. Elliott and others published the importance of ISR for the serve in the 1990s. Earlier research by Badminton researchers in the 1970s & 1980s also stated it for tennis but it was not widely recognized until Elliott's work. At least, that is my understanding.

Search above "Find Posts": camera behind Chas Tennis

I verified what I learned with these videos most of which deal with the serve
https://vimeo.com/user6237669/videos/all/page:1/sort:date

You can do stop action single frame on Vimeo with

hold SHIFT KEY & use RIGHT or LEFT ARROW KEYS

I've posted details of Federer's motion

Search: milliseconds Chas Tennis

I wanted to see my ISR so I took a before video in 2011 -
https://vimeo.com/21512296

Watch the black tape on my arm just above the shoulder move. That is internal shoulder rotation, really puny ISR. Compare it to the high level serves by looking at the sudden axial arm rotation best seen by at the elbow bones. You can compare ISR for the high level serves to some lower level serves.

You are probably doing ISR to some degree. ?

LeeD · Feb 5, 2014

I think most everyone would agree your serves in the first video was over 100.
It would be interesting to see your improvments, or evolution, from there.
100 would be pretty fast for a 4.0 level player, as used as a first flat serve, usually less than 40% in match play, but closer to 65% in practice.
As for the shoulder turn thing.... some guys use it, other's don't. Tall guys don't need it, as they get power from long arms.

boramiNYC · Feb 5, 2014

LeeD said:
I think most everyone would agree your serves in the first video was over 100.
It would be interesting to see your improvments, or evolution, from there.
100 would be pretty fast for a 4.0 level player, as used as a first flat serve, usually less than 40% in match play, but closer to 65% in practice.
As for the shoulder turn thing.... some guys use it, other's don't. Tall guys don't need it, as they get power from long arms.

That serve looks around 80 or 90 to me.

LeeD · Feb 5, 2014

You should consider recaliberating.
His first serve mishit.
He took it easy his second.
This third serve is more indicative of his flat serve ceiling.
Then he goes on to hit slice serves out wide, which are always hit lots slower than flat serves up the T.
And if you ask OP, he would tell you he can swing faster, if he chooses.

RoddickAce · Feb 5, 2014

The foundation of your serve reminds me of this serve: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPzcq5GS9x8

Which is a really really good serve.

The foundation is there, your arm is very loose/relaxed, pronation is great, racquet drop is deep, etc.

As others have mentioned, you could try to open up a bit more, and also remember to keep the intensity up through until after the followthrough.

Another thing to note is that, except for kick serves, your racquet should normally followthrough to the left side of your body. Right now, you are trading quite a bit of pace for spin, because you are not putting your weight behind the ball in the path it is going.

Edit: Didn't notice that the thread was from a while back...

Chas Tennis · Feb 5, 2014

RoddickAce said:
The foundation of your serve reminds me of this serve: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPzcq5GS9x8

Which is a really really good serve.

The foundation is there, your arm is very loose/relaxed, pronation is great, racquet drop is deep, etc.

.................................................................

In the video he says to get your arm "fully extended". In the past, I have interpreted such comments to mean reach as high as possible with the arm and racket. In any case, to avoid misunderstanding this point needs some clarification that is usually missing in serve instructional videos that are not high speed video.

If a frame of the the above video is examined at impact, this is what it shows -

232323232%7Ffp83232%3Euqcshlukaxroqdfv3%3A%3A%3Enu%3D92%3B5%3E359%3E257%3EWSNRCG%3D3735399995348nu0mrj

This is far from at the top of a reach because of the following 4 angles:

1) the arm is not vertical as seen from behind, slightly to the right.
2) the arm has an angle away from the camera that does not show from behind.
3) there is an angle between the forearm and racket as clearly shown. This angle is critical for a serve based on internal shoulder rotation.
4) there is another angle between the wrist and racket that does not show from the camera view behind the server.

For a thread with details on these angles see
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=489960

The serve on the video does look like a great serve especially considering the height that the ball hits on the backstop.

Lukhas · Feb 5, 2014

^The arm itself is straight, hence fully extended. His elbow isn't bent. I think it doesn't need interpretation, it really is exactly what is written on the tin.

Chas Tennis · Feb 5, 2014

Lukhas said:
^The arm itself is straight, hence fully extended. His elbow isn't bent. I think it doesn't need interpretation, it really is exactly what is written on the tin.

By the literal definition of arm "fully extended", you are correct.

Do you think that his instruction could be misinterpreted by a considerable number of tennis players?

Do you think that, given the speed of the serve, all instructional videos should show the motion in high speed video or single frames for clarity?

Lukhas · Feb 5, 2014

A lot I don't think so. But when I see instructional videos, there are often many comments asking for diverse precisions; even on things that are very clear. Nothing beats a live coach; the most popular online coaches often try to answer comments and such. So I think that if someone has a question, s/he has to ask it. No such things as stupid questions, only stupid answers.

Now on the use of high-speed videos in general, I think that used well (searching common threads between players) it's a formidable resource. Whenever I want to see something precise, I often go to Essential Tennis' channel which is filled with slow-motion videos of pros strokes.
However, not everybody is made the same: some are more feel oriented and few guidelines often helps; others needs very precise instruction to even visualise the technique they're trying to achieve. That's why I believe nothing beats a real coach (granted that he's good); and even in online tennis instruction there isn't a one size fits all method.

So if I believe that instruction should come with slow-mo footage, well yes and no. Some need it, others don't. And I don't see myself enforcing it on those who don't need it. Instead, I would try to search for instruction that fits me more.

I hope you don't believe I'm trying to avoid the question; but that's really tough for me to speak for others.

mxmx · Feb 6, 2014

Chas Tennis said:
I have posted a lot on internal shoulder rotation and the serve. Elliott and others published the importance of ISR for the serve in the 1990s. Earlier research by Badminton researchers in the 1970s & 1980s also stated it for tennis but it was not widely recognized until Elliott's work. At least, that is my understanding.

Search above "Find Posts": camera behind Chas Tennis

I verified what I learned with these videos most of which deal with the serve
https://vimeo.com/user6237669/videos/all/page:1/sort:date

You can do stop action single frame on Vimeo with

hold SHIFT KEY & use RIGHT or LEFT ARROW KEYS

I've posted details of Federer's motion

Search: milliseconds Chas Tennis

I wanted to see my ISR so I took a before video in 2011 -
https://vimeo.com/21512296

Watch the black tape on my arm just above the shoulder move. That is internal shoulder rotation, really puny ISR. Compare it to the high level serves by looking at the sudden axial arm rotation best seen by at the elbow bones. You can compare ISR for the high level serves to some lower level serves.

You are probably doing ISR to some degree. ?

Impressive...

When you ask if I use ISR (internal shoulder rotation) I would say yes. I know I do this when I pitch a ball...probably to a lesser extent when I serve. But it would be hard not to use ISR when one uses pronation, "whiplash effect" and a relaxed shoulder.

mxmx · Feb 6, 2014

LeeD said:
I think most everyone would agree your serves in the first video was over 100.
It would be interesting to see your improvments, or evolution, from there.
100 would be pretty fast for a 4.0 level player, as used as a first flat serve, usually less than 40% in match play, but closer to 65% in practice.
As for the shoulder turn thing.... some guys use it, other's don't. Tall guys don't need it, as they get power from long arms.

I don't know why, but normally my flat serves are faster in a match then when practicing. Maybe it has to do with focus (and new balls that go hand in hand with new matches)
My own guess would be that my serves on the vid are below 100mph, but above 100mph with new balls.

Just out of interest...I would consider my second serve to be better than my first (my 2nd serve is not included in the video). I probably have a 90% in ratio with my second serve and only around 40% for my first depending on the day...Sometimes in matches I discard the flat serve and go for a more powerful kick serve (especially in doubles).

Not that this is a big deal or anything: But in the current video with the old balls, the balls skid through on the bounce and dip before it hits the fence (between 500mm - 1m).
With new balls, I see less "dippage" after the bounce and the balls hit the fence above 1m. Does this have to do with the bounce or the speed or both? I know that this height also increased when i switched rackets...the exo tour for me, is terrible at first serves (too flexy) and excellent for 2nd serves...After I got the stiffer Blx surge (2011) I certainly have a better crisp feel when I contact the ball - with lead, even better.

mxmx · Feb 6, 2014

RoddickAce said:
The foundation of your serve reminds me of this serve: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPzcq5GS9x8

Which is a really really good serve.

The foundation is there, your arm is very loose/relaxed, pronation is great, racquet drop is deep, etc.

As others have mentioned, you could try to open up a bit more, and also remember to keep the intensity up through until after the followthrough.

Another thing to note is that, except for kick serves, your racquet should normally followthrough to the left side of your body. Right now, you are trading quite a bit of pace for spin, because you are not putting your weight behind the ball in the path it is going.

Edit: Didn't notice that the thread was from a while back...

Wow...the dude in that vid has a lot of power on his serve...certainly much faster than my serve.
Thanks for the compliment on my serve

As for the weight transfer, I have improved that. I do however not feel that I have accomplished the follow through to be around my body on the left. I have to some extent managed to lessen the exaggeration of the follow through to the right...but probably not as far left as it should be

LeeD · Feb 6, 2014

Video example of serving, the guy is swinging faster than OP and hitting flat serves.

mxmx · Feb 7, 2014

LeeD said:
You should consider recaliberating.
His first serve mishit.
He took it easy his second.
This third serve is more indicative of his flat serve ceiling.
Then he goes on to hit slice serves out wide, which are always hit lots slower than flat serves up the T.
And if you ask OP, he would tell you he can swing faster, if he chooses.

I can probably swing faster, but that may result in slower serves at times. Swinging faster but timing it badly or just using the arm makes serving a lot of effort. Timing, ball toss, new balls and more recently, more leg bend, seems to be the biggest influence on my serve speed. Aside from the grip, I consider the ball toss almost the most important aspect of the serve...

LeeD · Feb 7, 2014

So, with your thinking, your serves are limited to 80-90, as a previous poster stated.
My estimate of your service speed is based solely on your third serve, your good form, your slow demonstrated swing speed, and the POTENTIAL of you swinging faster to hit faster. Also, I'd think you could flatten out the ball just a bit more.
But if you believe you are swinging your maximum controlled speed for serving, then 80-90 is correct, and I stand corrected.

mxmx · Mar 5, 2014

I eventually got round to getting more videos online...

day 1 (EDITED)
http://youtu.be/wMVkczgYLic (not that it matters but serve 3 went through the fence)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAC3IaUqopc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5fDJGtaoH8 (no sound)

day 2
http://youtu.be/7SC2DoBD05c
http://youtu.be/gfOBZhKL57I
http://youtu.be/5G57wxJXQ8c

Most of the lower tossed balls, are second serves...

Nickzor · Mar 5, 2014

Looks great, great service motion, great pace, looks nice, i like watching it, good pace, I'm trying to serve more like the way you do, I'm getting close-ish to the motion, whenever i just practice my motion without hitting a ball it looks almost just like yours, but when there's a ball involved it just goes all over the place, i just gotta slow mine down a bit, its a little jumpy and rushed, maybe I'll just toss the ball up 10 feet to make me serve slower

it can be seen here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBA2p57cd88

mxmx · Mar 5, 2014

Nickzor said:
Looks great, great service motion, great pace, looks nice, i like watching it, good pace, I'm trying to serve more like the way you do, I'm getting close-ish to the motion, whenever i just practice my motion without hitting a ball it looks almost just like yours, but when there's a ball involved it just goes all over the place, i just gotta slow mine down a bit, its a little jumpy and rushed, maybe I'll just toss the ball up 10 feet to make me serve slower

it can be seen here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBA2p57cd88

Our videos does not have the best of quality to see the ball

I wonder of youtube downsamples files?

As for your motion...i like the beginning of the serve...your stance basically.
I think if you toss the ball higher you will significantly improve your serve. Secondly, try to have your weight transfer forward. On some of your serves you are falling sideways which tells me two things...you are off balance...and your toss up may be wrong.

Chas Tennis · Mar 5, 2014

mxmx said:
I eventually got round to getting more videos online...

day 1 (I could not get this darn video to rotate and save right)
http://youtu.be/pxlenflz1mI

day 2
http://youtu.be/7SC2DoBD05c
http://youtu.be/gfOBZhKL57I
http://youtu.be/5G57wxJXQ8c

Most of the lower tossed balls, are second serves...

Looks like a nice motion.

I don't know if this was discussed but I just noticed that you always finish with your arm on the right side of your body. This looks like a very natural part of your motion. I don't know why you finish on the right side, what part of your motion tends to make that happen.

I believe that almost all RH servers finish on their left side. Except that sometimes when serving kick serves a considerable percentage of servers finish on their right side. See Stosur.

232323232%7Ffp83232%3Euqcshlukaxroqdfv%3B773%3Dot%3E83%3A6%3D44%3A%3D348%3DXROQDF%3E282%3A9%3B%3B345257ot1lsi

Hard to find issues with this single 30 fps frame.

How does your serve look from the side? From the side how does your arm - shoulder - body line up compared to the pro servers.

I don't know what variety there is but I believe that this orientation is common for high level serves. Needs more research to see how much variation there is. Camera angle may always matter in how a 3D object or motion appears in the 2D video.

Compare to club players from the side view. https://vimeo.com/user6237669/videos

Wear a plain T shirt or sleeveless shirt to get a better video of your shoulder-trunk orientation. Video in direct sunlight.

Motion blur will be a problem. From the side view - in contrast to the behind view - everything is rapidly moving up or down or across the frame. That causes motion blur and will require high speed video with a fast shutter speed. From behind slower cameras produce very useful images.

It is important to see
1) frame before impact
2) impact frame with ball on strings
3) frame after impact
in order to determine the string path on the ball.

There have been some recent threads on ball contact, especially on the kick serve. Are all your serves hitting up a little like a kick serve and that's why you finish arm to the right?

Nickzor · Mar 5, 2014

mxmx said:
Our videos does not have the best of quality to see the ball
I wonder of youtube downsamples files?

As for your motion...i like the beginning of the serve...your stance basically.
I think if you toss the ball higher you will significantly improve your serve. Secondly, try to have your weight transfer forward. On some of your serves you are falling sideways which tells me two things...you are off balance...and your toss up may be wrong.

Oh my video actually has a 1080p option, the ball is clear-ish on that option, but yeh i could see the ball okay on your vids, Im using a go pro 2 strapped up against the fence to film mine, yeh i know what you mean about falling to the side and needing a higher ball toss, I'll get out there and practice again soon , not til the weekend unfortunately though as i have school all week

Chas Tennis · Mar 5, 2014

mxmx said:
Our videos does not have the best of quality to see the ball
I wonder of youtube downsamples files?
...................

Not that sure of this stuff, double check -

Both Vimeo and Youtube compress the video files to reduce the storage requirements. Your camera also compresses video just after sensing it to reduce the size of the video file.

One way that compression is achieved is to record a reference frame and then the next X frames are stored as the difference between the reference frame and a later frame. The compression technique the select another reference frame and repeats. For example, a compression technique may select a frame and then record the next, for example, 20 frames as the difference between each pixel's value and the corresponding pixel value of the reference frame.

The compression can greatly reduce the size of the video file.

It works best if the camera is fixed, on a tripod, and only a few things in the scene move. Compression is less effective for hand held cameras that are panning.

Some video files may work better than others, AVI, MOV etc.

If the video of a smartphone was rotated that might cause degradation.

I noticed some false waving in pine trees and also the fence in one of your video.

I don't understand frame rate issues for smartphones very well but if the light is low indoors I've read that some smartphones may slow down frame rates. If that occurs YT might be reconverting to 30 fps from 24 fps, ???

To view on smartphone take video holding horizontal or vertical whichever looks best. To post a video on YT or Vimeo hold the phone horizontal. You get the same size image displayed on the computer screen, no black side bars, and it may make it easier for YT or Vimeo to process your video.

mxmx · Mar 11, 2014

Chas Tennis said:
Looks like a nice motion.

I don't know if this was discussed but I just noticed that you always finish with your arm on the right side of your body. This looks like a very natural part of your motion. I don't know why you finish on the right side, what part of your motion tends to make that happen.

I believe that almost all RH servers finish on their left side. Except that sometimes when serving kick serves a considerable percentage of servers finish on their right side. See Stosur.

....

How does your serve look from the side? From the side how does your arm - shoulder - body line up compared to the pro servers.

I don't know what variety there is but I believe that this orientation is common for high level serves. Needs more research to see how much variation there is. Camera angle may always matter in how a 3D object or motion appears in the 2D video.

....

It is important to see
1) frame before impact
2) impact frame with ball on strings
3) frame after impact
in order to determine the string path on the ball.

There have been some recent threads on ball contact, especially on the kick serve. Are all your serves hitting up a little like a kick serve and that's why you finish arm to the right?

Yes...some members has spotted my racket ending on the opposite side of my body. I think there is a lot of wrist snap in my action, which combined with the pronation, has a lot of momentum which causes the racket to end up on the "wrong" side. Years back I hit my shins while serving...was quite painful and it may have contributed in me trying to prevent that from happening again.

LeeD · Mar 11, 2014

I think we consider you at least a 4.5 player.
So, the question is, is your flat first serve nearly as fast as your peer's flat first serves? I think not. There seems like a lack of loading on your service motion, like you are just going thru the motions trying to be smooth and consistent. There is no point of explosion. You never seem to wind, unwind, and explode into the ball.
But I still think, with your serve exactly as is, you can hit 105 on your best flat first serves, if you care to take the change during a point that counts.
That puts you in BallinBob's, TopspinShot's, and my range.
I know, you'll quote my service vid. To explain, I didn't post it, it was done in early May after I'd been on court 3 times that whole 4 months of that year.

Topspin Shot · Mar 11, 2014

LeeD said:
I think we consider you at least a 4.5 player.
So, the question is, is your flat first serve nearly as fast as your peer's flat first serves? I think not. There seems like a lack of loading on your service motion, like you are just going thru the motions trying to be smooth and consistent. There is no point of explosion. You never seem to wind, unwind, and explode into the ball.
But I still think, with your serve exactly as is, you can hit 105 on your best flat first serves, if you care to take the change during a point that counts.
That puts you in BallinBob's, TopspinShot's, and my range.
I know, you'll quote my service vid. To explain, I didn't post it, it was done in early May after I'd been on court 3 times that whole 4 months of that year.

Don't make me post links to your serve, Bob's serve, and my serve and let the community decide who has the weakest serve.

LeeD · Mar 11, 2014

Did we go thru this?
YOU posted your serve.
BallinBob posted his serves, the BEST you can find of you serving.
Alex411 posted my serves, after 6 weeks of rain, and no tennis, of course.
Some guys who played me, like Shroud, says my serve is in the one teens, and that my second serve bounces OVER his head when he's standing atop the baseline to return it.
When RobFL (nationally ranked 4.5) played doubles with me, this local 3.5, and PapaMango, I was on the winning end of all 3 sets, easily 3's, regardless of partner. He says, "that LeeD can play his doubs"..... and he's a NATIONALLY ranked 4.5.

Topspin Shot · Mar 11, 2014

LeeD said:
Did we go thru this?
YOU posted your serve.
BallinBob posted his serves, the BEST you can find of you serving.
Alex411 posted my serves, after 6 weeks of rain, and no tennis, of course.
Some guys who played me, like Shroud, says my serve is in the one teens, and that my second serve bounces OVER his head when he's standing atop the baseline to return it.
When RobFL (nationally ranked 4.5) played doubles with me, this local 3.5, and PapaMango, I was on the winning end of all 3 sets, easily 3's, regardless of partner. He says, "that LeeD can play his doubs"..... and he's a NATIONALLY ranked 4.5.

How come Shroud never actually backs up your claims? It's funny; you say Shroud says you do this and that, but Shroud stays away from these threads. Anyway:

LeeD: http://vimeo.com/21713707
Ballinbob: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkpQJkPMXnw
Topspin Shot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0IJfe3nsFs

LeeD · Mar 11, 2014

Thanks for posting, Fintft would appreciate it.
You guys serve at altitude and warm temps.
My serves were at sea level (ok, 75' above), and 60 degrees.
YOU posted your best serving vids.
My vid was just the only one.
As for Shroud, it's not his place to support any of my claims, but if he wants, he can chime in. He DID say I serve into the mid teens and that my second serve bounces over his head...and he's close to 6' tall.

President · Mar 11, 2014

Topspin Shot said:
How come Shroud never actually backs up your claims? It's funny; you say Shroud says you do this and that, but Shroud stays away from these threads. Anyway:

LeeD: http://vimeo.com/21713707
Ballinbob: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkpQJkPMXnw
Topspin Shot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0IJfe3nsFs

I'm sure that Lee's serve in the video are slower than both of yours (he has said he hadn't played for a very long time, like 5 or 6 weeks, at the time of that video), but the camera angle makes it much harder to determine his serve speed. He is on the far side of the court, of course his serve will look slower than your cameras which are right behind you...:-|

Fintft · Mar 11, 2014

LeeD said:
Thanks for posting, Fintft would appreciate it.
You guys serve at altitude and warm temps.
My serves were at sea level (ok, 75' above), and 60 degrees.
YOU posted your best serving vids.
My vid was just the only one.
As for Shroud, it's not his place to support any of my claims, but if he wants, he can chime in. He DID say I serve into the mid teens and that my second serve bounces over his head...and he's close to 6' tall.

Another puzzling thing (in general, not on your serve, especially since I haven't seen it) is that while, for example, I had more power a couple of years ago, maybe the technique wasn't there? Hence less consistency or "not a serve to work with" in the words of my head coach at the club....

LeeD · Mar 11, 2014

Heck, 7 years ago, I could actually RUN. I've been hobbling around the courts since 2007, with a couple of torn detached tendons in the top of my left foot.
And just last week, I couldn't brush my teeth or shave with my left arm. Had to support the wrist with my right wrist to get that high up my face.

Fintft · Mar 11, 2014

LeeD said:
Heck, 7 years ago, I could actually RUN. I've been hobbling around the courts since 2007, with a couple of torn detached tendons in the top of my left foot.
And just last week, I couldn't brush my teeth or shave with my left arm. Had to support the wrist with my right wrist to get that high up my face.

Yeah, but while aging could be a factor (and btw, apparently I run/move better now then say a couple of years ago), I suspect that the lack of technique (or the yo-yo changes on the serve) was the important factor.

Fintft · Mar 12, 2014

mxmx said:
Yes...some members has spotted my racket ending on the opposite side of my body. I think there is a lot of wrist snap in my action, which combined with the pronation, has a lot of momentum which causes the racket to end up on the "wrong" side. Years back I hit my shins while serving...was quite painful and it may have contributed in me trying to prevent that from happening again.

I'm no expert, but could it also be that your left shoulder is not low enough (after the cartwheel motion happens)?

Nice serve irregardless of the follow through!

Fintft · Mar 12, 2014

Topspin Shot said:
Don't make me post links to your serve, Bob's serve, and my serve and let the community decide who has the weakest serve.

Man I watched your serve motion yesterday a bit and I'm in awe (among all three)!

I have a friend at the club with a similar motion (serve being his best shot), better than me and when he's on, he's on.
I love the fluid, deep knee bend you have!

Topspin Shot · Mar 12, 2014

Fintft said:
Man I watched your serve motion yesterday a bit and I'm in awe (among all three)!

I have a friend at the club with a similar motion (serve being his best shot), better than me and when he's on, he's on.
I love the fluid, deep knee bend you have!

Thanks for the compliment. My serve isn't really that much of a weapon though; it's more a point starter that hopefully gets me a look at a centered return. I just put it up there because LeeD was going around posting that I have a weak serve.

Fintft · Mar 12, 2014

Topspin Shot said:
Thanks for the compliment. My serve isn't really that much of a weapon though; it's more a point starter that hopefully gets me a look at a centered return. I just put it up there because LeeD was going around posting that I have a weak serve.

Again, I'm no expert but your serve looks good for at least 4.0- 4.5 level, am I right? What did people here tell you?
(For the love of me, I don't see how anyone can call your serve week- not to mention the great technique).

And based on your response, your groundies are even better!

LeeD · Mar 12, 2014

Well for sure, TopspinShot's posted serve is better than my posted serve, no argument there. As is BallinBob's. I just said they were in the ballpark, like BBob at 110, TShot at 105, mine at 100.
BUT, consider this. I"m 65 years old. I can't run so I can't jump either. I've suffered FOUR broken collarbones. My rotator cuffs are so screwed that 2 weeks ago, I couldn't shave or brush my teeth with my left hand.
Now consider this. All that, and I"m barely slower than those two youngsters.
AND, my serve is a huge forcing weapon at 4-5.0 levels of play, but I"m lefty and have more experience than the youngsters.
While they hope to play 4.5's, I"ve played A/Open, 2 Q's, and have never lost to a former No.1 NorCal 4.0 who's younger than me by 8 years.

Sir Shankalot · Mar 13, 2014

President said:
I'm sure that Lee's serve in the video are slower than both of yours (he has said he hadn't played for a very long time, like 5 or 6 weeks, at the time of that video), but the camera angle makes it much harder to determine his serve speed. He is on the far side of the court, of course his serve will look slower than your cameras which are right behind you...:-|

The first in serve (out wide, hits the camera stand):

mxmx · Mar 13, 2014

LeeD said:
I think we consider you at least a 4.5 player.
So, the question is, is your flat first serve nearly as fast as your peer's flat first serves? I think not. There seems like a lack of loading on your service motion, like you are just going thru the motions trying to be smooth and consistent. There is no point of explosion. You never seem to wind, unwind, and explode into the ball.

When i compare my serve to other servers my age, it depends on their level, which is hard to measure, generally my serve is better than most of my opponents...it is the first shot after that or the one therafter that often severely lacks. At my club there was at least one player with the same power and more than my serve...but their placement and consistency was far behind.
I struggle having patience. I don't know what level player I am. All I know is that my general technique and shot ability on a singles level is quite good, but mentally I am not that experienced against people who do well in tournaments. I have definitely held my own against some of those guys, but on crucial points lose the point. If i can improve my "tenacity" I should do better.
In doubles my second serve is a real problem for most players...but I would say my first volley or shot is not consistently good enough.

As for the explosion part: Well spotted. For a long time I have been muscling the ball on the serve so I tried to time better - which helped. But there is definitely room for some "explosion" and more "muscling" since my technique has improved. My serve tends to improve explosively as the end of the tennis day draws near. I think I take a VERY long time to loosen up.

But I still think, with your serve exactly as is, you can hit 105 on your best flat first serves, if you care to take the change during a point that counts.
That puts you in BallinBob's, TopspinShot's, and my range.
I know, you'll quote my service vid. To explain, I didn't post it, it was done in early May after I'd been on court 3 times that whole 4 months of that year.

I could see BallinBob's serve as well as TopspinShots' serve...but not yours. Flash keeps blocking from your website on my browser. Youtube worked fine...
It was nice seeing some other serves...and they seem to be more in less the same speed as my videos.
What are you basing your "guestimate" on all the above serve speeds?
My general guideline is based on Agassi's serve from the same angle when he served around 101mph...but I guess I could be WAY off...

SFrazeur · Mar 14, 2014

Just an aside mxmx, but whenever I see your user name I keep thinking it's meow mix.

LeeD · Mar 14, 2014

SirShanks says my serve is around 86 mph.
I"m not sure too many sub 90 serves can hit 30+ inch high at the backwall when the serve is hit out wide, where it lands well wide of the doubles alley.
Up the middle hash, yes, it's possible.
Anyways, of the 30 or so 4.0's I play, I have the fastest serve.
Of the handful of 4.5's I play with, my serve is equal to any serve from the 6'2" and taller guys, even the big boyz, the 220 lbs 6'4" guys.
Talking pure speed, and the need for the returner to stand 3' back from the baseline, to just slice/block back the serve. Most better players stand back farther than 4' to return my first flat serves, if they are going in.

mxmx · Mar 19, 2014

Leed: I think we consider you at least a 4.5 player.
So, the question is, is your flat first serve nearly as fast as your peer's flat first serves? I think not. There seems like a lack of loading on your service motion, like you are just going thru the motions trying to be smooth and consistent. There is no point of explosion. You never seem to wind, unwind, and explode into the ball.

This comment bugged me ^.
So a couple of days ago I tried to be more explosive on the serve (- strange that the idea never occurred to me). So when I tried to be more explosive, some of the serves I definitely had more pace. Technique wise I tried to bend my legs even more as well as put more actual effort....So in the points some opponents even commented that they were fast. There was one serve that kept on rising all the way to the fence and went straight through without hesitation.
So I just wanted to say thank you for spotting the element of explosion/effort. This idea alone may have added 10mph to my serve.

I always thought pure fast serves *only* comes through timing and being smooth. But I am now changing my stance that one *has* to sometimes put in some effort or muscle. I suppose its about finding the right balance of muscling and timing and not just one or the other?

Leed: SirShanks says my serve is around 86 mph.
I"m not sure too many sub 90 serves can hit 30+ inch high at the backwall when the serve is hit out wide, where it lands well wide of the doubles alley.
Up the middle hash, yes, it's possible.
Anyways, of the 30 or so 4.0's I play, I have the fastest serve.
Of the handful of 4.5's I play with, my serve is equal to any serve from the 6'2" and taller guys, even the big boyz, the 220 lbs 6'4" guys.
Talking pure speed, and the need for the returner to stand 3' back from the baseline, to just slice/block back the serve. Most better players stand back farther than 4' to return my first flat serves, if they are going in.

But that's guessing your serve. When you estimated my serve speed, did you base it on anything such as your own serve speed or anything else?

SFrazeur: Just an aside mxmx, but whenever I see your user name I keep thinking it's meow mix.

Hehe...well...there is a band called mxpx

arche3 · Mar 19, 2014

LeeD said:
SirShanks says my serve is around 86 mph.
I"m not sure too many sub 90 serves can hit 30+ inch high at the backwall when the serve is hit out wide, where it lands well wide of the doubles alley.
Up the middle hash, yes, it's possible.
Anyways, of the 30 or so 4.0's I play, I have the fastest serve.
Of the handful of 4.5's I play with, my serve is equal to any serve from the 6'2" and taller guys, even the big boyz, the 220 lbs 6'4" guys.
Talking pure speed, and the need for the returner to stand 3' back from the baseline, to just slice/block back the serve. Most better players stand back farther than 4' to return my first flat serves, if they are going in.

Lee your serve sucks balls just deal with it. In the video your service motion is flawed. You don't need to jump to serve. You have an ok rec serve that you made into this fairy tale of 130mph flats and 100mph twists in your youth. Not possible with your serve mechanics. And you are not serving average 100+ now. Stop making excuses why your serve looks bad on video. It looks bad because it is bad.
BalinBob and TSShot while both serves has some issues are light years ahead of yours. Not because of youth but because they have better fundamental motions.
I know a 65 year old teaching pro that still serves 100 easily. Consistently. He doesn't even look like he swings hard.
Your bragging how far people take your serves back from the baseline. What you don't say is the returners are usually 12 year old girls. And fat rec old men.

psv255 · Mar 19, 2014

mxmx said:
This comment bugged me ^.

I always thought pure fast serves *only* comes through timing and being smooth. But I am now changing my stance that one *has* to sometimes put in some effort or muscle. I suppose its about finding the right balance of muscling and timing and not just one or the other?

The serve uses muscles even if you are smooth, it just uses them in a very specific way -- not the same way you hammer a nail but more the way you throw a ball or the leg/torso action when you're swimming butterfly. You quickly tense consequent parts of the body to amplify a whiplike movement of the last element.

A main anchor point that gets missed a lot on the serve is the core/abs - try actively tightening your core just before you hit the ball. Or alternatively, try swinging more explosively but try to keep the core stable. You'll feel like your racket gets pulled down faster, but if your timing is good you will hit the ball before the racket gets pulled down, so the ball will still go where you want it to, just faster

mxmx · Mar 24, 2014

psv255 said:
The serve uses muscles even if you are smooth, it just uses them in a very specific way -- not the same way you hammer a nail but more the way you throw a ball or the leg/torso action when you're swimming butterfly. You quickly tense consequent parts of the body to amplify a whiplike movement of the last element.

A main anchor point that gets missed a lot on the serve is the core/abs - try actively tightening your core just before you hit the ball. Or alternatively, try swinging more explosively but try to keep the core stable. You'll feel like your racket gets pulled down faster, but if your timing is good you will hit the ball before the racket gets pulled down, so the ball will still go where you want it to, just faster

I actively have been doing this ^ ever since my back had problems. Using the core more has thankfully and significantly protected my back over the years.
I also do the whiplike thing you've mentioned, which I've learnt through many years of pitching balls.

In recent times with my current technique as it has hopefully progressed, I have noted that the following has the biggest influence on extra power for me (I have excluded obvious steps that go hand in hand in the serve such as fluidity, contact point, pronation and so forth):

- higher toss up
- bigger leg bend
- more actual effort - something Leed made me more aware of.
(Btw. Whether Leed can serve or not is insignificant to me as wisdom or coaching is not solely dependent on always being able to do these things yourself)

Out of interest...could anyone note any differences in technique between my first "OP video" and the more recent ones?
OLD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv0D5q90XFQ&feature=youtu.be

RECENT:
day 1 (EDITED)
http://youtu.be/wMVkczgYLic (not that it matters but serve 3 went through the fence)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAC3IaUqopc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5fDJGtaoH8 (no sound)

day 2
http://youtu.be/7SC2DoBD05c
http://youtu.be/gfOBZhKL57I
http://youtu.be/5G57wxJXQ8c

LeeD · Mar 24, 2014

A servers DOES have to put out full effort, swing hard, rear back, drive up and forwards, to hit his faster serves.
But too much effort actually slows down the fastest serves, because it starts to muscle the ball, and not allow the HEAD of the racket to come thru past the hand, to hit the ball.
Serving hard takes a bit out of you, if you swing full speed every time, so your groundies might be off on the first hit, or you're out of position to pummel a ball that IS returned.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

mxmx serve

G.O.A.T.

Hall of Fame

G.O.A.T.

Bionic Poster

Hall of Fame

Bionic Poster

Hall of Fame

G.O.A.T.

Legend

G.O.A.T.

Legend

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Bionic Poster

Hall of Fame

Bionic Poster

Hall of Fame

Semi-Pro

Hall of Fame

G.O.A.T.

Semi-Pro

G.O.A.T.

Hall of Fame

Bionic Poster

Legend

Bionic Poster

Legend

Bionic Poster

Legend

G.O.A.T.

Bionic Poster

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

Legend

G.O.A.T.

Bionic Poster

Rookie

Hall of Fame

Legend

Bionic Poster

Hall of Fame

Banned

Professional

Hall of Fame

Bionic Poster

Similar threads