What is 4.5?

jservoss · Mar 7, 2014

JoelDali said:
Can a 4.5 enter The Wimbledon if they paid the tourney fee? Is it even listed on TennisLink anywhere?

No, but a 4.5 can enter the US Open regional qualifying tournaments. If all their opponents get injured and default they have a chance.

This kind of reminds me an extremely wealthy guy I play tennis with and he joking said he was going to enter into one of those tournaments and try and pay off all his opponents. I don't think he ever tried.

JoelDali · Mar 7, 2014

I will pull a Nancy Kerrigan on all of my opponents one by one then play Richie in round 1 and get breadsticked.

Pickle9 · Mar 7, 2014

how would they do in 9.0 mixed nationals?

JoelDali · Mar 7, 2014

So tired of all these 3.5s taking the courts all weekend. I spoak to the Philipino Davis Cup captain and he said the Korean Mens 3.5 Nationals team has all of Billie Jean King NTC Indoor clay courts booked tomorrow. Several of the top 3.5 Lebanese GOATs from Long Island were spraying GOAT juice at CityView tonight - epic doubles oldGOAT guy name Barry was GOATing hardcore. Dude was on fire with champions choice Cortex infused weaponry.

mikeler · Mar 7, 2014

Pickle9 said:
how would they do in 9.0 mixed nationals?

Against a rising doubles team or falling?

hcb0804 · Mar 7, 2014

Pickle9 said:
how would they do in 9.0 mixed nationals?

Fed doesn't have a strong enough backhand.....out in the semis.

WildVolley · Mar 8, 2014

jservoss said:
I feel like it is common enough that if a male player made the claim that they could serve over 100mph I would have very little reason to doubt that.

You can add my name into the hat of people that claim to be 5.0!! I have another claim that you guys will love to doubt too. I can serve over 120mph!

I have no reason to doubt you. But you either only play with other high level rec-players or don't play with many rec-players if you claim it is "extremely" common.

I mostly play on public courts in Southern California and see at least a few hundred different rec-players (I may be underestimating) each year. I can only count on my fingers the ones I've seen hitting over 100mph serves. The only guy I saw clearly serving over 120mph ended up being an ex-Division 1 player.

I also tend to agree with you that among posters on TTW, there are probably a greater % of 4.5+ players than among the general tennis playing population. I think forums with self-selected populations tend to be that way.

LeeD · Mar 8, 2014

Not so sure....
While a 5.5 can certainly be classified a "rec" player......
The SanPabloPark 4.0 team was out practicing last week, that's USTA Leaque4.0, not tournament 4.0. So, more than half played for their old colleges, either D-2 or 3's.
I'd say, over 5 guys on that team can easily first serve well over 105. Of those guys, most were around 6'2" and over 190 lbs., the tallest was 6'5" and easy 210, a Brit.
They are rec players, just like anyone not making money for a living by solely playing tennis.
The 4.5 team has a couple guys who serve harder, but they all play better. And 4.5 is also rec player.

JoelDali · Mar 8, 2014

The Brit would destroy all of these Talk Tennis clowns.

6 5 210 is one helluva monster tennis player.

4.0 GOAT.

Rjtennis · Mar 8, 2014

This is strictly my opinion since I've never clocked my or my opponents serves but I think people aren't breaking 100 all that frequently at 4.5. I would guess the only time I clear 100 mph on my own serve is when I hit flat serves and that isn't too often.

JoelDali · Mar 8, 2014

The guys with 6 pack raquet bags and a bandana serve 100.

The guys with Wilson shoes serve 75-85.

hcb0804 · Mar 9, 2014

JoelDali said:
The guys with 6 pack raquet bags and a bandana serve 100.

The guys with Wilson shoes serve 75-85.

What do the guys with Converse shoes serve?

Edburger · Mar 9, 2014

Burgers and fries.

JoelDali · Mar 9, 2014

Ding fries are done. Ding fries are done. Ding fries are done.

SCRAP IRON · Mar 9, 2014

Edburger said:
Ahhh, I see. We have similar system in Sweden, but reverse - start at ITN 7, work up to ITN 6, etc.

Ah you are from Sweden- That's why your name is clever! The irony is that Edberg was at the net all the time and the great pioneer of Swedish tennis, Bjorn Borg was a pure baseliner...

jhick · Mar 10, 2014

JoelDali said:
I will pull a Nancy Kerrigan on all of my opponents one by one then play Richie in round 1 and get breadsticked.

You're going to wait for someone to whack you in the knee? :-?

JoelDali · Mar 10, 2014

It's obvious no one here can properly define a 4.5.

End of thread.

Matt H. · Mar 11, 2014

4.5 is the most difficult to define here in south FL.

There is a hardline difference between a 4.0 and a 5.0 That can easily be observed.

5.0’s are the really good former college and tournament players. The good 4.0’s are the athletic guys with some tennis skill. You can tell the 2 between the motion of the strokes, footwork, and serve motion.

In reality, the 4.5 league becomes a mix of the 4.0’s that won a lot of matches and got bumped, and the old 5.0’s that don’t play often. From what I see, even though they’re rated 4.5, they’re still in the 4.0 camp and even on their best days they’re not going to beat the former 5.0 on a bad day.

I guess the main point is that an adult recreational player working his way from 3.0 will most likely peak at 4.0 playing ability. A good 4.5 was someone who established at the age of 16-18.

Bdarb · Mar 11, 2014

Matt H. said:
4.5 is the most difficult to define here in south FL.

There is a hardline difference between a 4.0 and a 5.0 That can easily be observed.

5.0’s are the really good former college and tournament players. The good 4.0’s are the athletic guys with some tennis skill. You can tell the 2 between the motion of the strokes, footwork, and serve motion.

In reality, the 4.5 league becomes a mix of the 4.0’s that won a lot of matches and got bumped, and the old 5.0’s that don’t play often. From what I see, even though they’re rated 4.5, they’re still in the 4.0 camp and even on their best days they’re not going to beat the former 5.0 on a bad day.

I guess the main point is that an adult recreational player working his way from 3.0 will most likely peak at 4.0 playing ability. A good 4.5 was someone who established at the age of 16-18.

I agree with this. Most adults who pick up the game just don't have the time to devote to learning and developing like kids and college players do. If I didn't have a coach telling me to hit for hours and hours in college there is no way I would ever have gotten to where I am at now. There are exceptions to every rule, but in general, sounds spot on from my observations.

beernutz · Mar 11, 2014

Bdarb said:
I agree with this. Most adults who pick up the game just don't have the time to devote to learning and developing like kids and college players do. If I didn't have a coach telling me to hit for hours and hours in college there is no way I would ever have gotten to where I am at now. There are exceptions to every rule, but in general, sounds spot on from my observations.

My seat-of-the-pants estimate is that for every 100 players who self-rate at 3.0, 75% will eventually be computer rated as high as 3.5, 20% will make it as high as 4.0, and less than 5% will go to 4.5 or higher.

Bdarb · Mar 11, 2014

beernutz said:
My seat-of-the-pants estimate is that for every 100 players who self-rate at 3.0, 75% will eventually be computer rated as high as 3.5, 20% will make it as high as 4.0, and less than 5% will go to 4.5 or higher.

seems reasonable. What would you consider an 'average' tennis player then. 3.0-3.5?

beernutz · Mar 11, 2014

Bdarb said:
seems reasonable. What would you consider an 'average' tennis player then. 3.0-3.5?

For my city these are the number of players in each level:

Code:

Level     # Men    # Women         
2.0         0         15
2.5         6         70
3.0        59        174
3.5       142        247
4.0       124        153
4.5        28         10
5.0         1          0

Using those year end rating numbers, the average male player in my area is 3.65 and the average female is 3.36. However, their dynamic ratings are most likely below their year end numbers since for example a year-end 3.5 rating is given to players with a 3.01 to a 3.50 rating. At least I think that is the range, it could be 3.00 to 3.49 and to be honest I'm not sure but it really isn't that important.

You could assume for purposes of discussion that the average DNTRP rating is 3.65 - .25 or 3.40 which is a pretty good 3.5 level player. That's what I'm going to submit as my answer anyway, feel free to pick it apart.

Bdarb · Mar 11, 2014

beernutz said:
For my city these are the number of players in each level:

Code:

Level # Men # Women 2.0 0 15 2.5 6 70 3.0 59 174 3.5 142 247 4.0 124 153 4.5 28 10 5.0 1 0

Using those year end rating numbers, the average male player in my area is 3.65 and the average female is 3.36. However, their dynamic ratings are most likely below their year end numbers since for example a year-end 3.5 rating is given to players with a 3.01 to a 3.50 rating. At least I think that is the range, it could be 3.00 to 3.49 and to be honest I'm not sure but it really isn't that important.

You could assume for purposes of discussion that the average DNTRP rating is 3.65 - .25 or 3.40 which is a pretty good 3.5 level player. That's what I'm going to submit as my answer anyway, feel free to pick it apart.

are you setting the curve as the lone 5.0?

ChicagoJack · Mar 11, 2014

JoelDali said:
It's obvious no one here can properly define a 4.5.
End of thread.

It's somebody who plays almost as good as the worst player on any of the Men's 4.0 teams from Puerto Rico competing at Nationals.

Bdarb · Mar 11, 2014

ChicagoJack said:
It's somebody who plays almost as good as the worst player on any of the Men's 4.0 teams from Puerto Rico competing at Nationals.

^^^men's 3.0

Sorry, you must have had a typo

ChicagoJack · Mar 11, 2014

Bdarb said:
^^^men's 3.0 Sorry, you must have had a typo

Ha ha. Good catch. By the way ... where on the USTA site did you get those digits that breaks down the number of players in each ntrp section?

schmke · Mar 11, 2014

beernutz said:
For my city these are the number of players in each level:

Code:

Level # Men # Women 2.0 0 15 2.5 6 70 3.0 59 174 3.5 142 247 4.0 124 153 4.5 28 10 5.0 1 0

Using those year end rating numbers, the average male player in my area is 3.65 and the average female is 3.36. However, their dynamic ratings are most likely below their year end numbers since for example a year-end 3.5 rating is given to players with a 3.01 to a 3.50 rating. At least I think that is the range, it could be 3.00 to 3.49 and to be honest I'm not sure but it really isn't that important.

You could assume for purposes of discussion that the average DNTRP rating is 3.65 - .25 or 3.40 which is a pretty good 3.5 level player. That's what I'm going to submit as my answer anyway, feel free to pick it apart.

The range is 3.01 to 3.50.

This is pretty consistent with what I came up with last year. See http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2013/08/some-interesting-usta-league-stats.html. The largest group of folks is at 3.5, then 4.0, and 3.0.

But also see http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2013/10/interesting-usta-league-stats-histogram.html where the peak rating to the tenth is 3.2, although the midpoint of the peak group is around 3.4.

beernutz · Mar 11, 2014

Bdarb said:
are you setting the curve as the lone 5.0?

I wish.

beernutz · Mar 11, 2014

schmke said:
The range is 3.01 to 3.50.

This is pretty consistent with what I came up with last year. See http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2013/08/some-interesting-usta-league-stats.html. The largest group of folks is at 3.5, then 4.0, and 3.0.

But also see http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2013/10/interesting-usta-league-stats-histogram.html where the peak rating to the tenth is 3.2, although the midpoint of the peak group is around 3.4.

Very interesting Kevin. As you say on that web page any differences are probably explained by your histogram showing data for both men and women and that it contains many more data points than the information from one area of around 400k people.

LeeD · Mar 11, 2014

That graph is pretty close, but because I might live in an outdoor activity oriented area, there are about double the number of 3.0's, and triple the number of tournament playing 5.0's and better. And adding UCBerkeley, that tilts the numbers slightly higher for 4.5 and above.

beernutz · Mar 11, 2014

ChicagoJack said:
Ha ha. Good catch. By the way ... where on the USTA site did you get those digits that breaks down the number of players in each ntrp section?

That was me, not Bdarb. I actually cheated and got them from the tennisleaguestats website for 2013.

You can run an advanced search on tennislink and get them as well. I did that and saved the output to a spreadsheet and computed a few totals. Here are the actual 2014 numbers for men in my city:

Code:

Male	level    #
        2.5	9
	3	51
	3.5	113
	4	126
	4.5	41
	5	3

The numbers aren't very different from what TLS showed, perhaps the most interesting difference is that 4.0s > 3.5s. I believe the perception here is that there were more bump ups than bump downs at the end of the year between those levels here which could explain that difference.

schmke · Mar 11, 2014

LeeD said:
That graph is pretty close, but because I might live in an outdoor activity oriented area, there are about double the number of 3.0's, and triple the number of tournament playing 5.0's and better. And adding UCBerkeley, that tilts the numbers slightly higher for 4.5 and above.

Yep, there are certainly variances by section and area.

See http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2013/08/updated-interesting-usta-league-stats.html that shows levels by section (a sampling, not all sections included when I did it).

You'll see that NorCal, SoCal, and Texas are sections that are have a higher percentage of players at the higher levels than most other sections.

schmke · Mar 11, 2014

Oh, and this blog post has even more detail splitting it out by gender. http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2013/10/more-interesting-usta-league-stats.html

JoelDali · Mar 11, 2014

Can the top 4.5 in the nation teach tennis to adults?

Bdarb · Mar 12, 2014

JoelDali said:
Can the top 4.5 in the nation teach tennis to adults?

the top 4.5 in the nation could teach tennis to jon mcenroe. Have you seen 4.5's play before

ChicagoJack · Mar 12, 2014

JoelDali said:
Can the top 4.5 in the nation teach tennis to adults?

That's Dali being Dali.

Bdarb said:
the top 4.5 in the nation could teach tennis to jon mcenroe. Have you seen 4.5's play before

I think Bdarb's on the right track here. The idea of a 4.5 coaching a pro isn't as wacky as it might sound. But the idea of a 4.5 coaching a pro isn't as wacky as it might sound. Ever hear of a guy named Nick Bolletierri? He never played beyond the 4.5 level himself, I've heard some folks say he played at the 4.0 level. He's a highly controversial figure for sure ... either credited as launching the careers of dozens of ATP pros, or he's a guy who rode a gravy train on the backs of his highly talented pupils. But you gotta give the guy his props. Seems to know the game pretty well. For several decades, some of the best players in the world have sought his advice, coaching, and mentoring.

dizzlmcwizzl · Mar 12, 2014

ChicagoJack said:
I think Bdarb's on the right track here. The idea of a 4.5 coaching a pro isn't as wacky as it might sound. Ever hear of a guy named Nick Bolletierri? He never played beyond the 4.5 level himself, I've heard some folks say he played at the 4.0 level. He's a highly controversial figure for sure ... either credited as launching the careers of dozens of ATP pros, or he's simply a guy who rode a gravy train on the backs of his highly talented pupils. But you gotta give the guy his props. Seems to know the game pretty well. For several decades, some of the best players in the world have sought his advice, coaching, and mentoring.

I love dali

Bdarb · Mar 12, 2014

dizzlmcwizzl said:
I love dali

lmao.

I was being sarcastic but frankly his point is hard to argue with???:shock::shock::shock:

beernutz · Mar 12, 2014

JoelDali said:
Can the top 4.5 in the nation teach tennis to adults?

How long was Bill Belichick's professional football playing career?

Yes, I know he's just stirring the pot but it is an interesting question.

JoelDali · Mar 12, 2014

I got invited to GOATify a mens 4.5 Manhattan team today but I didn't renew my USTA GOAT membership.

Chopin · Mar 12, 2014

JoelDali said:
I got invited to GOATify a mens 4.5 Manhattan team today but I didn't renew my USTA GOAT membership.

Is Federer still 4.5 at his age?? I think we need to get the USTA involved...

tennis tom · Mar 12, 2014

What's Edberg's rating these days?

JoelDali · Mar 15, 2014

Edburg would crush most 4.5s in the Eastern region. I've seen him playing with Courier at Randall's Island and he is rising 5.5 GOATworthy.

Edburger · Mar 16, 2014

tennis tom said:
What's Edberg's rating these days?

You cannot rate God.

Bdarb · Mar 16, 2014

Edburger said:
You cannot rate God.

Who would win in a set, edburg or god??

Trick question...

Chopin · Mar 17, 2014

Bdarb said:
Who would win in a set, edburg or god??

Trick question...

Gold Star Post.

35ft6 · Mar 18, 2014

Edburger said:
I see lots of people say, "I am 4.5" or "you only 3.5" or such.

What is this?

In that video where a 4.5 player plays a female pro. I actually think that guy's level is a great representation of 4.5.

JoelDali · Mar 28, 2014

Can Date Krum beat the top 4.5 in the world?

TennisCJC · Mar 28, 2014

JoelDali said:
Can Date Krum beat the top 4.5 in the world?

Which world?

beernutz · Mar 28, 2014

JoelDali said:
Can Date Krum beat the top 4.5 in the world?

If we *don't* include 4.5 self rates I think its likely.

What is 4.5?

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