Low Friction Poly X's For Gut Mains : Softer Alternative to MSV Co-Focus?

So... After taking a look at the coefficient of friction and a few other characteristics of some poly strings, I've come up with 4 poly crosses I want to try with natural gut in the mains (specifically Babolat Tonic +; my budget doesn't really allow for more unfortunately). These are...
-Head Hawk 16
-Topspin Cyber Blue 16
-Kirschbaum Pro Line II 1.30
-Solinco Revolution 16
Thank you very much to everyone who contributed to this thread, it truly is one of the most informative and interesting threads I have seen to date. Once I have time to get what I need and test the strings (waiting for the outdoor season to begin ), I'll start going through the set ups and writing reviews/impressions. I'll probably post these in a new thread, but it might take some time, I've got a LOT going on right now. Anyways cheers and many thanks! Look forward to me emptying my wallets for everyone's sake

moved.....

henman_fan said:

Doesn't Monogut ZX lose just as much tension as Poly. The TWU data has it losing 22.7 to lbs depending on the swing-speed and reference tension. That means there are 90 polys that lose less tension. I fail to see how Zyex is a replacement for polys that die quickly. There are nylons/polys that lose less tension and have lower friction. The one that stands out is Prince Premier Touch which has low stiffness, low COF and low tension loss.

Can't you just take a string that has higher stiffness then ZX, but better tension loss and COF, and string it at a lower tension. Won't this lead to a similar launch angle but more spin and lasts longer.

Click to expand...

He is searching for a poly-less set up due to consistent arm pains. He does not want to play a normal poly, but he doesn't want to give up on the gut main, poly cross feel, hence ZX (Long story short )

SpinToWin said:

He is searching for a poly-less set up due to consistent arm pains. He does not want to play a normal poly, but he doesn't want to give up on the gut main, poly cross feel, hence ZX (Long story short )

Click to expand...

It was a general question. I've started a new thread about it.

SpinToWin said:

So... After taking a look at the coefficient of friction and a few other characteristics of some poly strings, I've come up with 4 poly crosses I want to try with natural gut in the mains (specifically Babolat Tonic +; my budget doesn't really allow for more unfortunately). These are...
-Head Hawk 16
-Topspin Cyber Blue 16
-Kirschbaum Pro Line II 1.30
-Solinco Revolution 16
Thank you very much to everyone who contributed to this thread, it truly is one of the most informative and interesting threads I have seen to date. Once I have time to get what I need and test the strings (waiting for the outdoor season to begin ), I'll start going through the set ups and writing reviews/impressions. I'll probably post these in a new thread, but it might take some time, I've got a LOT going on right now. Anyways cheers and many thanks! Look forward to me emptying my wallets for everyone's sake

Click to expand...

Awesome. Thanks for the thanks. Fwiw, I think you've made some great demo choices. I think I get what you are shooting for. Seems that (in comparison to my search priorities) you are willing sacrifice a little comfort, in order to gain a little bit lower COF and tension maintenance surpassing that of ZX. Out of those four, I'm most hopeful about Head Hawk working out for you. On paper at least, I think that's the most promising. But out on the court is where the magic happens. All this number crunching is just a way for us to figure out some demo options in a way that maximizes our hard earned dollars, and gets us going in the right general direction.

Best of Luck,

-J

SpinToWin said:

Could you tell me how your gut and pro line II hybrid plays?

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I have tried a bunch of poly crosses with gut, and the Pro Line II is the best I've tried. I got a ton of spin, nice power, very good control, and it has a nice sound when struck. Plus it holds it tension very well. I get about 20-22 hours before the string bed gets a little "slangy" and the ball starts coming off the racquet at a higher angle.

Among the good strings I've tried (as crosses) that haven't quite made the grade: BH Blue Rough, Cyclone, Tour Bite and Tour Bite Soft, Hurricane Feel, 4G, Co-Focus, Hurricane Feel, RPM Blast and Hepta-Twist.

I don't want to screw around with any more strings, although the Zx sounds pretty interesting, especially since I'm thinking of stringing a spare frame with a full bed for use on rainy days.

henman_fan said:

It was a general question. I've started a new thread about it.

Click to expand...

I addressed that question in the new thread here:

Why is Zyex better then Poly and thoughts on "dead" strings?
See Reply #2 : http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=8229865&postcount=2

-J

Maui19 said:

I have tried a bunch of poly crosses with gut, and the Pro Line II is the best I've tried. I got a ton of spin, nice power, very good control, and it has a nice sound when struck. Plus it holds it tension very well. I get about 20-22 hours before the string bed gets a little "slangy" and the ball starts coming off the racquet at a higher angle.

Click to expand...

Nice new term.

Among the good strings I've tried (as crosses) that haven't quite made the grade: BH Blue Rough, Cyclone, Tour Bite and Tour Bite Soft, Hurricane Feel, 4G, Co-Focus, Hurricane Feel, RPM Blast and Hepta-Twist.

I don't want to screw around with any more strings, although the Zx sounds pretty interesting, especially since I'm thinking of stringing a spare frame with a full bed for use on rainy days.

Click to expand...

ZX definitely sounds interesting, and for those especially concerned with tension loss, Travlerajm's pre-stretch protocol turns ZX into a tension stability champ. Even the manufacturer has acknowledged on these boards that such pre-stretching is a good idea for those worried about tension loss (as anyone committed to gut mains should be.)

In fact, with regards to tension loss in the crosses, pre-stretching should be the answer, even for polys. If you have doubts, read this paper, where the TW Professor repeatedly stretches and then re-tightens copoly string. Each time, the string becomes "better" - it loses less tension and returns more energy. I suspect that the newer copolys like Hawk are showing such great tension stability numbers because they are factory pre-stretched.

Check out the TWU data below. It shows Alu Power Rough, a string notorious for losing tension and "going dead" compared to Head Hawk, one of the newer copolys that are both pretty soft and great at maintaining tension. TWU pre-stretched the Alu power, so there is data for both pre-stretched and non-pre-stretchted Alu. Notice how the pre-stretchted Alu loses just as little tension as Hawk.

corners said:

Check out the TWU data below. It shows Alu Power Rough, a string notorious for losing tension and "going dead" compared to Head Hawk, one of the newer copolys that are both pretty soft and great at maintaining tension. TWU pre-stretched the Alu power, so there is data for both pre-stretched and non-pre-stretchted Alu. Notice how the pre-stretchted Alu loses just as little tension as Hawk.

Click to expand...

Awesome Post. Now that's effing amazing, a real eye opener right there. The more I learn about string, the more I realize how useless my precious intuition is at times, and the more fascinated I become with the subject. I've read that study on how string goes "dead" about a dozen times. Utterly amazing that TW Professor was able to hammer the poly string down to zero tension, then re-tension it again, six times. Each iteration showing less tension loss and the impact hammer returning at similar or greater speeds. The string finally snapped on the 7th iteration. Pretty amazing stuff.

corners said:

Nice new term.

Click to expand...

Well is was supposed to be "slingy" but it got autocorrected.

corners said:

Nice new term.



ZX definitely sounds interesting, and for those especially concerned with tension loss, Travlerajm's pre-stretch protocol turns ZX into a tension stability champ. Even the manufacturer has acknowledged on these boards that such pre-stretching is a good idea for those worried about tension loss (as anyone committed to gut mains should be.)

In fact, with regards to tension loss in the crosses, pre-stretching should be the answer, even for polys. If you have doubts, read this paper, where the TW Professor repeatedly stretches and then re-tightens copoly string. Each time, the string becomes "better" - it loses less tension and returns more energy. I suspect that the newer copolys like Hawk are showing such great tension stability numbers because they are factory pre-stretched.

Check out the TWU data below. It shows Alu Power Rough, a string notorious for losing tension and "going dead" compared to Head Hawk, one of the newer copolys that are both pretty soft and great at maintaining tension. TWU pre-stretched the Alu power, so there is data for both pre-stretched and non-pre-stretchted Alu. Notice how the pre-stretchted Alu loses just as little tension as Hawk.

Click to expand...

thanks. I suppose the pre stretch data for ZX is not available yet?

anyone try Zyex mains and gut crosses? Two reasons, one is that with the gut's oil secretion I would think this would maintain the low COF of guy and Zyex? is that assumption correct?

and secondly in an extreme spin frame like RAMON is using I was thinking he could use his Zyex mains with a 16 or even 15L gut cross and get the same wear as he does from the Marathon 15L and even more spin and comfort? and with less crosses needed you could likely get 3 cross string jobs from 1 set of gut.

drak said:

anyone try Zyex mains and gut crosses? Two reasons, one is that with the gut's oil secretion I would think this would maintain the low COF of guy and Zyex? is that assumption correct?

and secondly in an extreme spin frame like RAMON is using I was thinking he could use his Zyex mains with a 16 or even 15L gut cross and get the same wear as he does from the Marathon 15L and even more spin and comfort? and with less crosses needed you could likely get 3 cross string jobs from 1 set of gut.

Click to expand...

I get what you are saying. As long as we are just speculating here, I'll add something to consider. If you take a bird's eye view of the friction digits, you will notice that Gut/Poly has the lowest friction digits on record, but Poly/Gut has among the highest. Strings don't behave in the same way when you swap the hybrid arrangement. I've posted more about this a few pages back. See link Here, Post # 197.

-J

ChicagoJack said:

I get what you are saying. As long as we are just speculating here, I'll add something to consider. If you take a bird's eye view of the friction digits, you will notice that Gut/Poly has the lowest friction digits on record, but Poly/Gut has among the highest. Strings don't behave in the same way when you swap the hybrid arrangement. I've posted more about this a few pages back. See link Here, Post # 197.

-J

Click to expand...

Okay, got your thinking on that Chicago, I would think then that a Zyex main/Poly cross would have a very low COF and be significant spin generator?

drak said:

Okay, got your thinking on that Chicago, I would think then that a Zyex main/Poly cross would have a very low COF and be significant spin generator?

Click to expand...

My educated guess would be that if you are trying to create low COF, you'd get much better results with Zx/Poly, as opposed to Zx/Gut. Fyi, I have a full bed of ZX and find it as spinny as a full bed of my favorite polys. The textured polys give me a little more action on my kick serve, but everything else seems like even money in that department.

-J

drak said:

Okay, got your thinking on that Chicago, I would think then that a Zyex main/Poly cross would have a very low COF and be significant spin generator?

Click to expand...

Probably not... Generally the gut main, poly cross combination achieves the lowest possible COF value currently known. Zyex is closer to poly than gut and I think the COF value change due to the difference in material won't be as significant.

Sheesh, I think that we've officially jumped the shark on this topic. This is getting wacky up in here LOL. I think we have enough ZX threads for one board!

ChicagoJack said:

Sheesh, I think that we've officially jumped the shark on this topic. This is getting wacky up in here LOL. I think we have enough ZX threads for one board!

Click to expand...

LOL, get me a healthy achilles and I'll be a ZX experimenting fool, I have read and participated in your Achilles stories amigo and appreciate it, this is my third bout

moonballs said:

thanks. I suppose the pre stretch data for ZX is not available yet?

Click to expand...

Unfortunately not.

It is a new material option

Zyex Monogut is a new string formulation. The braided versions which I have used act like a high end multi. This ZX formulation is entirely different and generates a good deal of interest , especially since so many players are looking for dialed in poly set-ups

Hmm, I remember reading (in one of the many zx threads) that the string is very tension 'sensitive'? IIRC, there was an optimal tension range for this string, if someone remembers could you remind me here? Sorry not trying to be lazy with the search function but I couldn't find it quickly...

CJack, Have you tried lubricating either gut/ZX or full ZX? The launch angle and spin should increase a bit and pace drop a little.

The database is jacked up.

All I get is on Chrome, Firefox and Safari is this:

Warning: mysqli_connect() [function.mysqli-connect]: (HY000/2003): Can't connect to MySQL server on '127.0.0.1' (61) in /Library/WebServer/Documents/twu/learning_center/COFreporter.php on line 36
Connect Failed:Can't connect to MySQL server on '127.0.0.1' (61)
Warning: mysqli_query() expects parameter 1 to be mysqli, boolean given in /Library/WebServer/Documents/twu/learning_center/COFreporter.php on line 479

Warning: mysqli_fetch_array() expects parameter 1 to be mysqli_result, null given in /Library/WebServer/Documents/twu/learning_center/COFreporter.php on line 494

Warning: mysqli_query() expects parameter 1 to be mysqli, boolean given in /Library/WebServer/Documents/twu/learning_center/COFreporter.php on line 164

Warning: mysqli_num_rows() expects parameter 1 to be mysqli_result, null given in /Library/WebServer/Documents/twu/learning_center/COFreporter.php on line 168

Warning: mysqli_fetch_array() expects parameter 1 to be mysqli_result, null given in /Library/WebServer/Documents/twu/learning_center/COFreporter.php on line 172

g4driver said:

The database is jacked up.

All I get is on Chrome, Firefox and Safari is this:

Warning: mysqli_connect() [function.mysqli-connect]: (HY000/2003): Can't connect to MySQL server on '127.0.0.1' (61) in /Library/WebServer/Documents/twu/learning_center/COFreporter.php on line 36
Connect Failed:Can't connect to MySQL server on '127.0.0.1' (61)
Warning: mysqli_query() expects parameter 1 to be mysqli, boolean given in /Library/WebServer/Documents/twu/learning_center/COFreporter.php on line 479

Warning: mysqli_fetch_array() expects parameter 1 to be mysqli_result, null given in /Library/WebServer/Documents/twu/learning_center/COFreporter.php on line 494

Warning: mysqli_query() expects parameter 1 to be mysqli, boolean given in /Library/WebServer/Documents/twu/learning_center/COFreporter.php on line 164

Warning: mysqli_num_rows() expects parameter 1 to be mysqli_result, null given in /Library/WebServer/Documents/twu/learning_center/COFreporter.php on line 168

Warning: mysqli_fetch_array() expects parameter 1 to be mysqli_result, null given in /Library/WebServer/Documents/twu/learning_center/COFreporter.php on line 172

Click to expand...

LOL, yeah, all the TWU tools that rely on the string data are down. I've been meaning to alert TW. Will do now.

SpinToWin said:

What made me curious is that Head Hawk has the lowest friction according to the data (as far as I can see). I've played the string before and quite liked it, however, paired with the power, comfort and touch of natural gut, I think I'd love it. Has anybody tried this specific setup and if yes, how was it? Also, which gauge of gut/poly would you recommend? Or is there a reason why this set up would not work? Sorry for bombarding you with questions, but I'm new to the world of natural gut (as you probably realize).

Click to expand...

Strung up a 1/2 set of Hawk with Pacific Tough Gut 16g in a Steam 99S tonight. I will play a ladder match tomorrow with it on a hard court. My luck with gut/poly on Har-Tru has been the gut snapping too quickly to justify the price.

If I go down by two games at any point, I'm switching back the the Cyclone Tour Steam 99S frames. Tonic 15L / Hawk might be a worthwhile experiment also but Gut/Poly experiments get $$$$.

corners said:

CJack, Have you tried lubricating either gut/ZX or full ZX? The launch angle and spin should increase a bit and pace drop a little.

Click to expand...

Hi corners,

1. I'm open to the idea, but nope, never tried string lubrication.

2. And that question is right on time. What's interesting to me is that the rebound angle doesn't seem low anymore. I'm sure part of this is simply due to the fact that I've adjusted to it. But I think there might be more to this, and perhaps tension loss is playing a role here. I typically string my Gut/Poly at 60/54 or 60/52, but strung my first demo of Gut/zx at 60/58. When I compare the same two racquets side by side a few months later, the trajectories seem very similar. When both set were fresh the difs in rebound angle were very easily noticed within the first few hits.

3. It's fairly common that lower tension will create a higher rebound, hence a gradually higher rebound as tension loss occurs. Maybe something else occuring too? Perhaps the gut mains slide better when the crosses lose tension down from 58lbs? Just thinking out loud here, taking wild guesses. But I totally understand your inquiry as well, and this might also be friction/abrasion related. I'm thinking that since I'm really happy with the Zx, my next round of demos will be centered around finding the optimal tension for me. Here's what I have in mind:

Frame 1. 60/54 ... Gut/Poly (Reference Baseline)

Frame 2. 60/50 ... Gut/Zx
Frame 3. 60/54 ... Gut/Zx
Frame 4. 60/58 ... Gut/Zx

Frame 5. 60/50 ... Full Zx
Frame 6. 60/54 ... Full Zx
Frame 7. 60/58 ... Full Zx

I also want to track my court hours and tension loss this time around. This will help me have more certainty about ideal starting tension, tension loss, abrasion, notching, friction, spin, rebound angles etc. Might be a while till the next round of testing but I'll be sure to report back.

-J

g4driver said:

Strung up a 1/2 set of Hawk with Pacific Tough Gut 16g in a Steam 99S tonight. I will play a ladder match tomorrow with it on a hard court. My luck with gut/poly on Har-Tru has been the gut snapping too quickly to justify the price.

If I go down by two games at any point, I'm switching back the the Cyclone Tour Steam 99S frames. Tonic 15L / Hawk might be a worthwhile experiment also but Gut/Poly experiments get $$$$.

Click to expand...

Hi G4driver -

Cool. That particular hybrid in that particular frame sounds really intriguing. Please do report back if you get a chance. Btw I switch back and forth btwn Tonic 15L and Wilson Natural Gut 16, just buying whatever is cheapest through my rep connection. If I was playing full gut and comparing side by side, it might be another story, but I'm happy with either and really can't tell much difference when switching out various crosses in hybrid.

-J

drak said:

LOL, get me a healthy achilles and I'll be a ZX experimenting fool, I have read and participated in your Achilles stories amigo and appreciate it, this is my third bout

Click to expand...

Oh man, I remember you! that Achilles thread I started must have been 2006 or 2007? I was SO very obsessed with figuring that thing out, not playing was devastating to my emotional and physical well being. Finally got through that hell fire and walked right into minor knee and major back surgery. In many ways, the last two injuries were easier, in that recovery was pretty linear. With the achilles issue, it seemed like 3 steps forward and two steps back the whole way. I wish you well my friend.

-J

JT_2eighty said:

Hmm, I remember reading (in one of the many zx threads) that the string is very tension 'sensitive'? IIRC, there was an optimal tension range for this string, if someone remembers could you remind me here? Sorry not trying to be lazy with the search function but I couldn't find it quickly...

Click to expand...

Hi JT -

I've found good success in the higher tension ranges so far. My first two setup were Gut/Poly at 60/58, and a full bed of Zx at 60 lbs. My next round of testing will be to explore the lower tension ranges. See Post #226.

-J

ChicagoJack said:

Hi JT -

I've found good success in the higher tension ranges so far. My first two setup were Gut/Poly at 60/58, and a full bed of Zx at 60 lbs. My next round of testing will be to explore the lower tension ranges. See Post #226.

-J

Click to expand...

how are you liking the full bed of ZX? spin/power/control/comfort vs your gut mains racket? and Ramon is having very good success in a spin frame with ZX mains and Gamma Marathon crosses

ChicagoJack said:

Hi G4driver -

Cool. That particular hybrid in that particular frame sounds really intriguing. Please do report back if you get a chance. Btw I switch back and forth btwn Tonic 15L and Wilson Natural Gut 16, just buying whatever is cheapest through my rep connection. If I was playing full gut and comparing side by side, it might be another story, but I'm happy with either and really can't tell much difference when switching out various crosses in hybrid.

-J

Click to expand...

Will do Jack. Been beautiful here in Charleston, SC for a week, so naturally, when I string up a gut/hawk it downpours at 4 pm today. Going to try to hit tomorrow am.

Have you tried Pacific Classic? Love to see how it compares to Pacific Tough Gut and Tonic 15L - Chris says Tough Gut is softer than Classic, while Andy mentions he broke the Kelvar string before he broke the Tough Gut. :shock: That is very impressive for durability!

Here's the Tough Gut review for those interested in reading/watching Chris and Andy's thoughts on Tough Gut.

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/reviews/PTG16/PTG16Review.html

Hit three sets of doubles with my 4.0 teammates-

Honestly, I get more spin out of Cyclone Tour 16 g than the Pacific Tough Gut 16g / Head Hawk 17g setup.

Played two sets with CT lost the first set 3-6 with anthracite 16G - switched to another Steam 99S the red CT and win 7-5, then went to the Pacific Gut 16g / head hawk setup - winning that set 7-5

The CT setup has more power and spin at 57m/54x than the Pacific Gut 57 / hawk 54 setup - the gut is softer and I feel like I can play with either setup equally well, but there is no doubt in my mind Cyclone Tour in a Steam 99S gave me more spin.

For $9 a pack, CT is a great deal. The pacific tough gut / hawk set up is $27 a string job tax free- 3x the price of a CT setup with less spin. - not worth the price IMO.

I have no method to measure this, but I asked teammates and they felt I was hitting more spin with full poly setup.

Maui19 said:

I have tried a bunch of poly crosses with gut, and the Pro Line II is the best I've tried. I got a ton of spin, nice power, very good control, and it has a nice sound when struck. Plus it holds it tension very well. I get about 20-22 hours before the string bed gets a little "slangy" and the ball starts coming off the racquet at a higher angle.

Among the good strings I've tried (as crosses) that haven't quite made the grade: BH Blue Rough, Cyclone, Tour Bite and Tour Bite Soft, Hurricane Feel, 4G, Co-Focus, Hurricane Feel, RPM Blast and Hepta-Twist.

I don't want to screw around with any more strings, although the Zx sounds pretty interesting, especially since I'm thinking of stringing a spare frame with a full bed for use on rainy days.

Click to expand...

I am a newbie to nat. gut stringing. Tomorrow I plan on stringing my first ever nat. gut on Babolat Pure Drive. My plan is to do Klip Legend 16 g nat. gut at 57 on mains and Kirschbaum Pro Line II 17g(1.25) at 53 on crosses.

Thanks in advance if you have any valuable tips. I'll also post my results on how it feels. Not so confident on Klip's economical nat. gut but will know more after I test it out.

EpitomeOfAwesome said:

I am a newbie to nat. gut stringing. Tomorrow I plan on stringing my first ever nat. gut on Babolat Pure Drive. My plan is to do Klip Legend 16 g nat. gut at 57 on mains and Kirschbaum Pro Line II 17g(1.25) at 53 on crosses.

Thanks in advance if you have any valuable tips. I'll also post my results on how it feels. Not so confident on Klip's economical nat. gut but will know more after I test it out.

Click to expand...

I used to play that Klip gut, and it plays very well. I switch to Pacific Classic gut because the Klip would fray easily. It wouldn't break or play badly--I just didn't like the way it looked. You know how that goes lol.

drak said:

how are you liking the full bed of ZX? spin/power/control/comfort vs your gut mains racket? and Ramon is having very good success in a spin frame with ZX mains and Gamma Marathon crosses

Click to expand...

Hi Drak -

I absolutely it, Gut/Zx at 60/58 is currently my favorite set up. I wrote a little bit about that combination 30 days ago, in this post here, and my feelings are only gettiing more positve as I continue to find a comfortable groove with it. The rest of my reviews are on page 9 here.

IIRC, Ramon prefers Zx in the mains for durability in his extremely open frame, so I get how that might work given those preferences and situation.

-J

ChicagoJack said:

Hi corners,

1. I'm open to the idea, but nope, never tried string lubrication.

2. And that question is right on time. What's interesting to me is that the rebound angle doesn't seem low anymore. I'm sure part of this is simply due to the fact that I've adjusted to it. But I think there might be more to this, and perhaps tension loss is playing a role here. I typically string my Gut/Poly at 60/54 or 60/52, but strung my first demo of Gut/zx at 60/58. When I compare the same two racquets side by side a few months later, the trajectories seem very similar. When both set were fresh the difs in rebound angle were very easily noticed within the first few hits.

3. It's fairly common that lower tension will create a higher rebound, hence a gradually higher rebound as tension loss occurs. Maybe something else occuring too? Perhaps the gut mains slide better when the crosses lose tension down from 58lbs? Just thinking out loud here, taking wild guesses. But I totally understand your inquiry as well, and this might also be friction/abrasion related. I'm thinking that since I'm really happy with the Zx, my next round of demos will be centered around finding the optimal tension for me. Here's what I have in mind:

Frame 1. 60/54 ... Gut/Poly (Reference Baseline)

Frame 2. 60/50 ... Gut/Zx
Frame 3. 60/54 ... Gut/Zx
Frame 4. 60/58 ... Gut/Zx

Frame 5. 60/50 ... Full Zx
Frame 6. 60/54 ... Full Zx
Frame 7. 60/58 ... Full Zx

I also want to track my court hours and tension loss this time around. This will help me have more certainty about ideal starting tension, tension loss, abrasion, notching, friction, spin, rebound angles etc. Might be a while till the next round of testing but I'll be sure to report back.

-J

Click to expand...

Hey Jack, missed your reply to my earlier question. I think your thinking about tension loss of the ZX crosses possibly facilitating more/easier mains movement being responsible for the higher rebound angle you're seeing as the bed breaks in is pretty reasonable. I wonder if lubricating the strings at the outset might replicate those results.

Thinking on this, I looked back at TWU's Spin and String Lubrication paper, and noticed how different materials respond to lubrication. All strings tested - gut, nylon and fresh and used poly - gained in spin after lubrication was applied, but the effect of lubrication on rebound angle is more complex. The rebound angle of fresh poly didn't change much with lube, but the rebound angle of notched poly increased dramatically after lubrication. Notched gut responded similarly. Unplayed but old (sat in the racquet for a month, probably denting the crosses) syngut gained the most spin after lubrication, but like fresh poly, the rebound angle didn't change much.

Not sure what all this means for gut/ZX. I sure would like to build a lab setup like TWU has.

Personally, I've grown pretty accustomed to the high rebound angle of gut/poly and would like to figure out what tensions, or maybe lube, might give a similar response with gut/ZX. Looking forward to hearing how your tension experiments play out!

EpitomeOfAwesome said:

I am a newbie to nat. gut stringing. Tomorrow I plan on stringing my first ever nat. gut on Babolat Pure Drive. My plan is to do Klip Legend 16 g nat. gut at 57 on mains and Kirschbaum Pro Line II 17g(1.25) at 53 on crosses.

Thanks in advance if you have any valuable tips. I'll also post my results on how it feels. Not so confident on Klip's economical nat. gut but will know more after I test it out.

Click to expand...

Hi EpitomeOfAwesome,

1. One heads up for first time users of Gut/poly. Your ball is going to go deeper into the court on baseline to baseline rally by a noticeable amount. Depending on your stroke, it's going deeper by at least 1-4 feet. I've seen this over and over when folks switch from just about anything else to this hybrid.

2. The human body isn't sensitive enough to judge the true measure of spin, which is the number of revolutions per second. I have no idea if the ball is spinning at 2400 rpms, or 1700 rpms. What we all do is try to guesstimate spin based on flight path height over the net, depth into the court, and how steep the drop just before the bounce. Sometimes these differences are really obvious, and hard to miss, as in the case of full gut vs full poly. But in the case of swapping out various poly cross strings in with gut mains, the differences in flight path seem pretty small (to me anyways).

3. If I ever win the gazillion dollar power ball lottery, the first thing I will buy is a sexy electric sports car (Tesla Model S) . The second thing I will buy is that Wilson Doppler Radar ThingaMaJiggy that can provide feedback on ball rpms on a real tennis court in real time. Until I have that thing in my back yard, I will be using my observational skills as best I can just like the rest of us.

4. TWU does provide empirical evidence regarding outgoing RPMs based on all sorts of variables.. impact angle, string pattern, string weave, tension, material, string to ball friction, string to string friction among others. But it's the stroke adjustments you'll make to a given string creating a lower, higher, deeper or shorter ball that will probably determine a preference, a like or a dislike. Because the ball travels deeper with Gut/poly, many will conclude that there is less spin. This may or may not be the case, but where the rubber meets the road here is that the technique adjustment to that long ball will probably determine your fondness or dislike for Gut/poly.

5. If you see the ball sailing long, and your adjustment to that phenomena is to shorten the swing, swing slower and start to push, the results won't be positive. However, if you are able to maintain your typical timing, keep your racquet head speed, but simply tilt the racquet face slightly closed, this slight angle adjustment (with any string) will significantly increase spin. This adjustment will be easy for some, but for most of us it might take several weeks. On my backhand wing especially, I have to remember that little tip that Serena is fond of sharing. She suggests that to create a heavy, spinny BH, you need to think ... "push down on the ball but swing hard".

-J

Update on the cyclone tour 16g vs a Pacific Tough Gut 16g / head Hawk 17g


Had a under 30 year old USTA 5.0 friend ask me to warm up before a ladder match- so I did under the condition he hit with both my. steam 99S frames to determine which gave him more spin -

He first hit with his Pure Drove Play versions strung with Signum Poly Pro ? / gamma glide

Then he hit with my Steams -

Volkl Cyclone Tour in the Steam 99S took the title for most spin- easily beating the Gut/Hawk according to him and witnessed by friends

^^ thanks G4driver, that update is much appreciated!

Thank you Chicago Jack. I promise to remember to swing hard at all times and not push to compensate for the extra power.

Just finished stringing. Babolat Pure Drive. Klip Legend 16 g in mains at 57 and Kirschabum Pro Line II 17 g in crosses at 53.

Overall this is just my 7th racquet strung. All previous jobs were poly mains and multifilaments in crosses.

Doing poly in crosses today felt very unpleasant as it was the first time. I like ProLine II for its tension maintenance, hate RPM blast and dual, but putting it in crosses took 2 hours.

Wonder if WeissCannon Silver String or Topspin Cyber Blue would be easier. My top priorities for polys are 1. Tension Maintenance 2.Playability Duration 3. Soft on Arm 4. Ease of Stringing (for now)

Also I had to move almost each cross about 1/3 of an inch in direction away from the handle to straighten it out after finishing stringing. Hoping that's not abnormal.

Well that was a giant waste of time and money

I went to string up a full bed of Monogut ZX, and broke one of the center mains during stringing. Yikes, this string is more fragile than gut (IME). So I break out my second pack of Monogut and string up the racquet. As I am tying off the bottom cross (yes, I was done stringing) I hear a "snap" and find that the third cross had snapped at the grommet. WTF? I was super gentle the second time--no kinks, smooth pulling, etc. FWIW, I was stringing as a hybrid 54/52.

I feel like this is a very fragile string, and I wasted a bunch of time and money screwing around with it. Bummer.

Maui19 said:

I went to string up a full bed of Monogut ZX, and broke one of the center mains during stringing. Yikes, this string is more fragile than gut (IME). So I break out my second pack of Monogut and string up the racquet. As I am tying off the bottom cross (yes, I was done stringing) I hear a "snap" and find that the third cross had snapped at the grommet. WTF? I was super gentle the second time--no kinks, smooth pulling, etc. FWIW, I was stringing as a hybrid 54/52.

I feel like this is a very fragile string, and I wasted a bunch of time and money screwing around with it. Bummer.

Click to expand...

Contact Ashaway and request some kind of adjustment. I think they might accommodate you. It's also worth mentioning that Travlerajm claims that pre-stretching ZX eliminates the fragility issues.

corners said:

Contact Ashaway and request some kind of adjustment. I think they might accommodate you. It's also worth mentioning that Travlerajm claims that pre-stretching ZX eliminates the fragility issues.

Click to expand...

That's a great suggestion--thanks. But I would be worrying about this string all the entire time it was sitting in my backup racquet. I was kinda looking forward to crossing it with my gut mains. It's just too fragile to be a reliable string for me.

It reminds me of that Global gut I tried a few years back.

EpitomeOfAwesome said:

Thank you Chicago Jack. I promise to remember to swing hard at all times and not push to compensate for the extra power.

Just finished stringing. Babolat Pure Drive. Klip Legend 16 g in mains at 57 and Kirschabum Pro Line II 17 g in crosses at 53.

Overall this is just my 7th racquet strung. All previous jobs were poly mains and multifilaments in crosses.

Doing poly in crosses today felt very unpleasant as it was the first time. I like ProLine II for its tension maintenance, hate RPM blast and dual, but putting it in crosses took 2 hours.

Wonder if WeissCannon Silver String or Topspin Cyber Blue would be easier. My top priorities for polys are 1. Tension Maintenance 2.Playability Duration 3. Soft on Arm 4. Ease of Stringing (for now)

Also I had to move almost each cross about 1/3 of an inch in direction away from the handle to straighten it out after finishing stringing. Hoping that's not abnormal.

Click to expand...

You will get quicker stringing. Poly crosses aren't that bad once you get used to it. Ease of stringing is pretty much the same for all polys IMO. Cyber Blue is great to cross with gut though. I plays similars to Proline II and is very soft but plays a little crisper.

Rjtennis said:

You will get quicker stringing. Poly crosses aren't that bad once you get used to it. Ease of stringing is pretty much the same for all polys IMO. Cyber Blue is great to cross with gut though. I plays similars to Proline II and is very soft but plays a little crisper.

Click to expand...

Thank you. If you've had experience with CyberBlue or heard of someone play with it what characteristics of CyberBlue make it good to hybrid with gut? Would it hold tension/playability for 4 weeks at 5 hrs/week.

EpitomeOfAwesome said:

Thank you. If you've had experience with CyberBlue or heard of someone play with it what characteristics of CyberBlue make it good to hybrid with gut? Would it hold tension/playability for 4 weeks at 5 hrs/week.

Click to expand...

there is a gut/poly thread about this exact hybrid and the guy absolutely loves it.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=497469

Went back a few pages and read Jack's superlative review on Gosen PolyMaster 17. It's low stiffness is quite attractive but its pricey and spin potential (3.4) is a bit low.

Cyber Blue 16 and 17 on the other hand is only slightly stiffer, more spin potential and cheaper.

Weiss Cannon Scorpion (1.22 only) has a good mixture of Tension Maintenance, Stiffness, Coefficient of Friction and price.

Currently I have Kirschbaum Pro Line II 17 as the cross for Klip Legend gut main.

If anyone knows how the above strings compare with each other, kindly post. If they are all roughly equally playable, my personal tie-breaker would be ease of weaving as crosses.

EpitomeOfAwesome said:

Went back a few pages and read Jack's superlative review on Gosen PolyMaster 17. It's low stiffness is quite attractive but its pricey and spin potential (3.4) is a bit low.

Click to expand...

The spin potential number from TWU is a combination of inter-string coefficient of friction (COF) and ball/string COF. If you're only using the string in the crosses the ball/string COF doesn't matter. Polymaster's inter-string COF is lower than any of the other copolys you mention below.

Cyber Blue 16 and 17 on the other hand is only slightly stiffer, more spin potential and cheaper.

Weiss Cannon Scorpion (1.22 only) has a good mixture of Tension Maintenance, Stiffness, Coefficient of Friction and price.

Currently I have Kirschbaum Pro Line II 17 as the cross for Klip Legend gut main.

If anyone knows how the above strings compare with each other, kindly post. If they are all roughly equally playable, my personal tie-breaker would be ease of weaving as crosses.

Click to expand...

EpitomeOfAwesome said:

Went back a few pages and read Jack's superlative review on Gosen PolyMaster 17. It's low stiffness is quite attractive but its pricey and spin potential (3.4) is a bit low.

Cyber Blue 16 and 17 on the other hand is only slightly stiffer, more spin potential and cheaper.

Weiss Cannon Scorpion (1.22 only) has a good mixture of Tension Maintenance, Stiffness, Coefficient of Friction and price.

Currently I have Kirschbaum Pro Line II 17 as the cross for Klip Legend gut main.

If anyone knows how the above strings compare with each other, kindly post. If they are all roughly equally playable, my personal tie-breaker would be ease of weaving as crosses.

Click to expand...

corners said:

The spin potential number from TWU is a combination of inter-string coefficient of friction (COF) and ball/string COF. If you're only using the string in the crosses the ball/string COF doesn't matter. Polymaster's inter-string COF is lower than any of the other copolys you mention below.

Click to expand...

Hi EpitomeOfAwesome -

Just want to build a little bit on the excellent clarification regarding the TWU "spin potential" digits that corners has provided. I've done a quick copy and paste from my demo list on the first page, then put the strings you've mentioned as a red font. This is not to suggest that the strings you mention are good or bad. I have my top priority as low stiffness, followed by low friction, followed by good tension maintenance. With that order of priorities cross referenced and sorted in this way, some strings will float to the top, and some will float to the bottom. Somebody with less sensitive arm will be more open to shopping in stiffer end of the poly pool, as that seems to be (with a few exceptions) where better tension maintenance is found.

Proline II is a great string with many fans here, and it's got above scores in the tension department. But with my particular order of priorities, you can see the that stiffness of Pro line II drops it to the bottom of my shopping list. Same deal with Scorpion, I love that string too, but my arm is not happy with it at all.

Here's my list from the first page with the string you mention in red. Underlined means I've demoed it. The Grey Font just means it's a non-poly string.

( stiffness lbs/in ) ( actual pre-test tension, reference tension was 62 lbs, fast swing ) ( inter-string friction )

( 086.3 ) ( 54.4 ) ( 0.103 ) .. Pacific Prime 16
( 089.2 ) ( 53.8 ) ( 0.180 ) .. Pacific Classic 16
( 092.6 ) ( 54.2 ) ( 0.173 ) .. Wilson Natural 17
( 097.7 ) ( 53.1 ) ( 0.147 ) .. Babolat VS Team 17
( 099.4 ) ( 51.9 ) ( 0.245 ) .. Wilson Natural 16
( 104.6 ) ( 54.3 ) ( 0.298 ) .. Klip Legend Uncoated 16
( 101.7 ) ( 51.1 ) ( 0.124 ) .. VS Natural ThermoGut 16 Touch
( 105.2 ) ( 54.2 ) ( 0.194 ) .. Klip Armour Pro 16

( 118.3 ) ( 39.0 ) ( 0.088 ) .. Ashaway Zyex MonoGut 16 Nylon/Zyex
( 161.2 ) ( 48.1 ) ( 0.085 ) .. Volk Gripper 17 Nylon
( 166.3 ) ( 27.5 ) ( 0.098 ) .. Topspin Cyber Flash 17L
( 171.5 ) ( 47.6 ) ( 0.079 ) .. Gosen Compositemaster II 16 Nylon
( 176.0 ) ( 50.4 ) ( 0.089 ) .. Head FXP Power 17 Nylon
( 178.9 ) ( 49.3 ) ( 0.080 ) .. Gosen Powermaster II 16 Nylon
( 180.6 ) ( 37.8 ) ( 0.090 ) .. Gosen Sidewinder 17
( 181.2 ) ( 49.1 ) ( 0.082 ) .. Volkl Synthetic Gut 17 Nylon
( 181.2 ) ( 48.8 ) ( 0.088 ) .. Gosen Nanosilver 17 Nylon
( 181.7 ) ( 30.0 ) ( 0.102 ) .. WC Silverstring 120
( 182.9 ) ( 48.5 ) ( 0.075 ) .. Gosen Powermaster I 16 Nylon
( 183.5 ) ( 49.7 ) ( 0.089 ) .. Gosen AK Pro 17 Nylon
( 188.0 ) ( 47.8 ) ( 0.081 ) .. Klip Synth Gut 16 Nylon
( 188.0 ) ( 30.9 ) ( x.xxx ) .. Yonex Poly Tour Pro 1.25
( 000.0 ) ( 00.0 ) ( 0.000 ) .. Weiss CANNON Mosquito Bite 18 (Not In TWU Data Base)
( 189.2 ) ( 44.7 ) ( 0.114 ) .. Technifibre Pro Mix 17Nylon/Poly
( 191.5 ) ( 34.3 ) ( 0.083 ) .. Big Hitter Black 7 17, edged
( 192.0 ) ( 34.2 ) ( 0.083 ) .. Big Hitter Silver 17
( 192.6 ) ( 32.9 ) ( 0.112 ) .. Polyfibre Poly Hitec 18
( 192.6 ) ( 30.2 ) ( 0.070 ) .. IsoSpeed Pulse 16
( 193.2 ) ( 33.3 ) ( 0.071 ) .. Gosen Polyon Polybreak 18
( 193.7 ) ( 33.1 ) ( 0.092 ) .. Head Sonic Pro 16
( 197.2 ) ( 38.3 ) ( 0.120 ) .. Babolat Pro Hurricane 18
( 199.5 ) ( 34.3 ) ( 0.090 ) .. Topspin Cyber Blue 17
( 200.0 ) ( xx.x ) ( 0.089 ) .. MSV Co-Focus 17L .. [estimated stiffness, USRSA digits n/a]
( 200.0 ) ( 30.9 ) ( 0.100 ) .. Polyfibre TCS 17
( 200.6 ) ( 35.3 ) ( 0.097 ) .. Kirschbaum Pro Line II 18
( 203.5 ) ( 33.4 ) ( 0.087 ) .. Head Sonic Pro 17
( 203.5 ) ( 34.9 ) ( 0.079 ) .. Topspin Cyber Blue 16
( 205.0 ) ( xx.x ) ( 0.072 ) .. Solinco Revolution 18 .. [corners estimated data]
( 205.5 ) ( 35.7 ) ( 0.075 ) .. Solinco Tour Bite 17, edged
( 206.3 ) ( 35.6 ) ( 0.085 ) .. Gamma Zo Twist 16
( 206.9 ) ( 34.9 ) ( 0.074 ) .. Gosen PolyMaster II 16, flat
( 210.9 ) ( 35.4 ) ( 0.082 ) .. Volkl Cyclone 18
( 210.3 ) ( 30.0 ) ( 0.085 ) .. Polyfibre Hitec Premium 16
( 211.5 ) ( 35.1 ) ( 0.083 ) .. Gosen Polyon SP 17
( 211.5 ) ( 36.5 ) ( 0.092 ) .. WC Scorpion 1.22
( 213.2 ) ( 36.3 ) ( 0.089 ) .. MSV Co-Focus 16L
( 214.3 ) ( 35.6 ) ( 0.074 ) .. Solinco Outlast 17
( 214.3 ) ( 35.9 ) ( 0.085 ) .. MSV Hepta Twist 17 edged
( 218.3 ) ( 37.4 ) ( 0.090 ) .. Kirschbaum Pro Line II 17L
( 222.3 ) ( 38.7 ) ( x.xxx ) .. Signum Pro Poly Plasma 17L , 1.18
( 227.5 ) ( 38.87 ) ( 0.101 ) .. Kirschbaum Pro Line II 17
( 228.0 ) ( 45.7 ) ( 0.069 ) .. Head Hawk
( 225.0 ) ( 39.6 ) ( x.xxx ) .. Tecnifibre Black Code 18
( 228.6 ) ( 39.6 ) ( x.xxx ) .. Prince Beast XP 16
( 323.6 ) ( 36.8 ) ( x.xxx ) .. Signum Pro Hyperion 17
( 237.0 ) ( 37.3 ) ( 0.098 ) .. MSV Focus Evo 17
( 262.3 ) ( 45.6 ) ( 0.071 ) .. Ltec Premium 4S 16L
( 273.2 ) ( 51.3 ) ( x.xxx ) .. Luxilon 4G 16L, 1.25

Play Testing, String Review Links:
1. 60/52 … Mains: Wilson Natural Gut 16 | X's: Yonex Poly Pro Tour Black (16L / 1.25mm)
2. 60/52 … Mains: Wilson Natural Gut 16 | X's: Wiess CANNON Mosquito Bite (18g / 1.16mm) Red
3. 54/54 … Dunlop Black Widow (18g / 1.21) (Rainy Day Back Up)
4. 60/52 … Mains: Wilson Natural Gut 16 | X's: Gosen SideWinder (17g /1.22-1.24)
5. 60/52 … Mains: Wilson Natural Gut 16 | X's: Gosen PolyMaster I (16g / 1.02-1.46)
6. 60/56 … Mains: Wilson Natural Gut 16 | X's: Ashaway MonoGut Zx Red (16g / 1.27mm)
7. 60/60 … Full Bed : Ashaway MonoGut Zx Red (16g / 1.27mm)


Links: [1] String Friction Rankings , String Movement , Inter-string Friction , String To Ball Friction , Rank Strings By Spin Potential , USRSA String Selector Map 2012 , Gosen Sidewinder Video Review , Big Hitter Black 7 Video Review , Volkl Cyclone Video & Written Review
- Jack

Jack, I actually borrowed your idea and made my own spreadsheet except with medium tension and medium swing speeds and ranked in order of Stiffness, Tension Maintenance and Coefficient of Friction.

Out of all the strings I thought 4 strings fit perfectly for my criteria.

I meant Gosen SideWinder 17, not Polymaster.

Further I took one more page out of your book and don't want to invest purely in the lab results.

Within the next 6-8 months, I will likely try all 4 of those, but for now I'd like to pick one and roll with it for the ongoing USTA league season.

I was wondering how those fared comparatively in the real world if somebody did try those. Kirschbaum Proline II 17, Topspin CyberBlue 16,17, WeissCannon Scorpion 1.22 and Gosen SideWinder 17