Serve the Jay Berger way?

dlam · Nov 6, 2012

Jay Berger has simple but effective way of serving.
He basically starts the serve motion by putting the racket over the right shoulder

I thinking this is so odd, he gets to the back scratch position right away .

Then I thinking, all good servers look slightly different in their deliveries.

However...

All good servers look the same from about the trophy position until contact , so why not simplify the serve the Jay Berger way?

i thinking this may be an effective way to learn and practice the service motion by fast forward to the backscratch position at the vert start of the serve.

As one gets more coordinated with their motion and rhythm then one may wish to abandon this.

Thoughts?

i know some of you dont like the BS position.

WildVolley · Nov 6, 2012

If you try to serve out of the racket drop, you lose energy that is created by the stretch you get from going from trophy to the drop. Some of this is added by the legs pushing off the ground and making the drop greater.

mikeler · Nov 6, 2012

He did it because of shoulder issues. I'd only consider using it in a similar situation.

SystemicAnomaly · Nov 6, 2012

Could not find any videos of Berger's serve motion. Did he start the racket from the trophy position? Did he start with the throat of the racket resting on the clavicle of his serving shoulder? Some other variation?

SFrazeur · Nov 6, 2012

Never seen his serve and could not find video nor pictures.

-SF

dlam · Nov 6, 2012

mikeler said:
He did it because of shoulder issues. I'd only consider using it in a similar situation.

Really?
When was this? As a junior?
I recall watching him win ATP tournament serving this way at his prime

System
Yes essentially resting the throat of the racket over his right clavicle to start the serve motion

TomT · Nov 6, 2012

dlam said:
Jay Berger has simple but effective way of serving.
He basically starts the serve motion by putting the racket over the right shoulder

I thinking this is so odd, he gets to the back scratch position right away .

Then I thinking, all good servers look slightly different in their deliveries.

However...

All good servers look the same from about the trophy position until contact , so why not simplify the serve the Jay Berger way?

i thinking this may be an effective way to learn and practice the service motion by fast forward to the backscratch position at the vert start of the serve.

As one gets more coordinated with their motion and rhythm then one may wish to abandon this.

Thoughts?

i know some of you dont like the BS position.

Please post some videos. Otherwise it's difficult to know exactly what you mean. Also, I don't know what "BS position" means. But am interested to learn. Thanks.

LeeD · Nov 6, 2012

He prepped just like you and I.
Brought rackethand directly back to trophy, racket pointing at sky...like normal.
Then he tossed and rose up to hit...pretty hard, like 132 mph.
Yeah, shoulder issues, so bad he said he would quit tennis.

dlam · Nov 6, 2012

Here a thread on Jay
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=395846

There a link in there showing his funky looking serve playing B Becker at the French

rufus_smith · Nov 6, 2012

Nice find. In there is the only video I've ever seen of Berger serve. It's just one serve versus Becker, btw, because it started raining. I served the Berger way for a few weeks in the summer because of temporary injuries and it worked fine. It helped me focus more on the ball toss since the hitting arm is already set. You might lose a little maximum possible serve speed but not much. You gain serve reliability I think. Heck, I may go back to it.

http://www.ina.fr/sport/tennis/video/I05307271/tournoi-de-roland-garros-jouons-sous-la-pluie.fr.html

2ndServe · Nov 6, 2012

I highly doubt Jay ever served 130ish with that motion.

NLBwell · Nov 6, 2012

I don't remember what his serve speed was, but it was not considered a weak serve.

I've served like that during several of my shoulder and elbow injuries.

dlam · Nov 6, 2012

I brought up this topic, cause Berger's serve looked unusual but he still got the job done reasonable well.
Similarly people talk about how strange Jim Furyk golf swing's compare to the other classic golf swings but he gets the job done and wins too.
The thing I find unusual in Berger's serve is he lacks a windup with his racquet arm yet still manage to get good pace on his serve.
I believe he gets that pace by his natural rhythm
He gets weight shift and momentum as you can see he finishes into the court after he serves.
In general I have observed the deeper one lands into the court with the foot after striking the ball the more pace the ball has if cleanly struke.

LeeD · Nov 7, 2012

Jay Berger was a good athlete, was at least Fed height, and had normal strokes except the serve caused by his shoulder problems.

I Heart Thomas Muster · Nov 8, 2012

Agassi did something similar in 1993 due to a wrist injury.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCpjys2heNA

And Todd Martin after his ATP career (35 seconds in)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-5aycYgifs

SystemicAnomaly · Nov 10, 2012

rufus_smith said:
Nice find. In there is the only video I've ever seen of Berger serve. It's just one serve versus Becker, btw, because it started raining. I served the Berger way for a few weeks in the summer because of temporary injuries and it worked fine. It helped me focus more on the ball toss since the hitting arm is already set. You might lose a little maximum possible serve speed but not much. You gain serve reliability I think. Heck, I may go back to it.

http://www.ina.fr/sport/tennis/video/I05307271/tournoi-de-roland-garros-jouons-sous-la-pluie.fr.html

dlam said:
...
Yes essentially resting the throat of the racket over his right clavicle to start the serve motion

I teach a variation of this Berger serve to novice servers and to intermediate servers who have a significant hitch when attempting a fuller motion. I started with the same variation when I taught myself to serve with my opposite arm -- I normally serve lefty but have developed a pretty decent righty serve.

The thing that I do not like about the Berger serve is that he starts with his right elbow forward. It should be pulled back -- as if pulling back an arrow in a bow. In his start position, he does not employ a pectoral stretch (due to his inferior elbow position). The Serve Doctor (implicitly) talks about this elbow position. (However, in this spring-loaded serve, the server uses a variation of the abbreviated takeback rather than starting with the racket throat starting on the clavicle).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixx-MCC7D88&t=1m56s

I use this "sans takeback" serve as part of a progression. This enables the server to focus on the toss and on the upward swing of the racket head from the so-called BS ("back scratch") position up to the contact. Note: I am one of those who is not fond of the backscratch (BS) terminology -- some servers get the wrong idea by trying to "scratch the back".

After the shoulder/clavicle serve is mastered, the next step in the progression is to develop a serve with the racket starting the "trophy position" -- the elbow starts with a 90 degree band and it (the elbow) is pulled back and is directly in line with the shoulder tilt.

I currently use this "trophy" serve for my right-handed serve. With this serve variation, the server should make certain that they achieve a good (deep) racket head drop (what some refer to as the backscratch position). Many servers do not achieve an adequate racket head drop.

= Trophy position

"Backscratch" position:

SystemicAnomaly · Nov 10, 2012

I Heart Thomas Muster said:
Agassi did something similar in 1993 due to a wrist injury.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCpjys2heNA

And Todd Martin after his ATP career (35 seconds in)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-5aycYgifs

This is pretty much what I meant by the "trophy" serve in the previous post. It is very nearly the same as an "abbreviated takeback" serve. Often, with the trophy serve, the server will pause/hesitate a bit at the trophy position. OTOH, the motion is a tad more continuous with the abbreviated takeback serve. With some implementations, it is difficult to make a distinction between the two variations.

dlam · Nov 16, 2012

SystemicAnomaly said:
This is pretty much what I meant by the "trophy" serve in the previous post. It is very nearly the same as an "abbreviated takeback" serve. Often, with the trophy serve, the server will pause/hesitate a bit at the trophy position. OTOH, the motion is a tad more continuous with the abbreviated takeback serve. With some implementations, it is difficult to make a distinction between the two variations.

Then those video abr serve motion of Aggasi and Martin is that of starting at the trophy position
Berger looks a lot different
He seems to dangling the racket in a BS position to start and has no trophy position at all during the serve
No trophy position in the serve ?
How is that possible?

NTexas · Nov 16, 2012

This is a good way to teach someone to serve. have them start in the back scratch position because it takes a few steps out. then as they get better have them do a full serve.

SystemicAnomaly · Nov 16, 2012

^ Yes, that is exactly what I was saying in #16.

dlam said:
Then those video abr serve motion of Aggasi and Martin is that of starting at the trophy position
Berger looks a lot different
He seems to dangling the racket in a BS position to start and has no trophy position at all during the serve
No trophy position in the serve ?
How is that possible?

This is what I was saying in post #16. The Berger serve, starting on the shoulder, is what I am now calling a stage 1 serve. The trophy serve, a stage 2 serve, is next in the progression. A stage 3 serve is the abbreviated serve motion -- it is more continuous that the static trophy start position seen with the stage 2 serve.

Variations of the stage 3 serve include the Agassi & Martin serves seen previously in this thread. Other variations include Roddick's (standard) motion and the Serve Doctor's spring-loaded serve.

rufus_smith · Nov 18, 2012

SystemicAnomaly said:
^ Yes, that is exactly what I was saying in #16.

This is what I was saying in post #16. The Berger serve, starting on the shoulder, is what I am now calling a stage 1 serve. The trophy serve, a stage 2 serve, is next in the progression. A stage 3 serve is the abbreviated serve motion -- it is more continuous that the static trophy start position seen with the stage 2 serve.

Variations of the stage 3 serve include the Agassi & Martin serves seen previously in this thread. Other variations include Roddick's (standard) motion and the Serve Doctor's spring-loaded serve.

I like this. Btw, there is a term "half-serve" I've seen seen used. That may or my not be stage 2.

SystemicAnomaly · Nov 18, 2012

rufus_smith said:
I like this. Btw, there is a term "half-serve" I've seen seen used. That may or my not be stage 2.

Is that the half-court, half-grip, half- motion serve suggested by Salzenstein (or was it someone else)?

SystemicAnomaly · Nov 18, 2012

^^ Or perhaps you are referring to the half-serve pronation exercise by McCraw. He uses the "dirty diaper" finish that Salzenstein talks about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iONY6fcqZGg

.

rufus_smith · Nov 18, 2012

For example, at the of bottom page, gray box, "beginner" paragraph.

http://elderton.webfactional.com/media/article_pdfs/ImpactPointServe.pdf

SystemicAnomaly · Nov 18, 2012

^ That description of the half-serve is too vague to really be useful. Hopefully, they have a more complete explanation or image elsewhere.

.

Chas Tennis · May 23, 2013

Very Interesting Point in Jay Berger Tennis Channel Academy Show

Technical -

There was a Tennis Channel Academy show, "USTA Player Development", broadcast April 2, 2013 in our area.

Jay Berger was included coaching the serve. See minute 26.

He discussed a point that I've been confused about regarding the 'back scratch'. He used a term that I had never heard before - "racket leaking" - with regard to the 'back scratch'.

He also mentions briefly internal shoulder rotation.

For the leg thrust phase of the serve where the stretch shortening cycle is being used:

CORRECTION - The forearm-racket angle does not appear in line for most servers with camera views from the side. Viewed elbow on as in the Henin picture below it does appear straight in the trophy phase. In the Henin pose below her racket is toward her head. See high speed videos.

1) See CORRECTION above. Forearm-Racket in Line. The forearm and racket should be roughly in line and at a right angle to the upper arm when the leg thrust phase of the serve begins. When the shoulder rises due to the leg thrust and other motions this forearm-racket to upper arm angle causes the shoulder joint to externally rotate and stretch the internal shoulder rotators (lat & pec). When the forearm & racket are in a straight line & at 90° to the upper arm, the moment of inertia of the forearm-racket is maximized. As soon as the wrist breaks to allow the back scratch, the moment of inertia decreases sharply. The racket has not yet "leaked" according to Jay Berger's terminology.

SystemicAnomaly said:
.............................................
After the shoulder/clavicle serve is mastered, the next step in the progression is to develop a serve with the racket starting the "trophy position" -- the elbow starts with a 90 degree band and it (the elbow) is pulled back and is directly in line with the shoulder tilt.

I currently use this "trophy" serve for my right-handed serve. With this serve variation, the server should make certain that they achieve a good (deep) racket head drop (what some refer to as the backscratch position). Many servers do not achieve an adequate racket head drop.

= Trophy position

2) Forearm-Racket at an Angle. At some point after a good shoulder stretch is achieved, the wrist is allowed to let the racket drop down on the back - to the back scratch position. He calls this wrist joint motion 'letting the racket leak'. He discussed that the racket should leak but not too early because the stretch phase needs the forearm and racket more in a straight line. When they are in a straight line & at 90° to the upper arm, the moment of inertia of the forearm-racket is maximized. As soon as the wrist breaks to allow the back scratch, the moment of inertia decreases sharply. This can happen too early during the leg thrust before a good stretch is achieved.

SystemicAnomaly said:
....................................................................................................
I currently use this "trophy" serve for my right-handed serve. With this serve variation, the server should make certain that they achieve a good (deep) racket head drop (what some refer to as the backscratch position). Many servers do not achieve an adequate racket head drop.
............................................
"Backscratch" position:

This video shows both the forearm-racket in a roughly straight line followed by the wrist joint motion allowing the racket to go more into the back scratch position. Type of serve unknown.
https://vimeo.com/63688133

These videos of another service motion show some variation and not as much wrist joint change for the racket drop. Racket is out to side and not behind the back. Type of serve unknown.
https://vimeo.com/63688134
Another similar serve.
https://vimeo.com/63709517

This cleared up a confusing phase of the serve for me as he identified two things that I have seen in high speed videos and explained what is going on and a critical piece of timing.

JackB1 · May 27, 2014

NTexas said:
This is a good way to teach someone to serve. have them start in the back scratch position because it takes a few steps out. then as they get better have them do a full serve.

I have been doing something like this the past week or so and I was amazed that I actually didn't lose anything, but gained some pace, due to my previous very technically poor serve. By starting this way, I am now actaully able to get a little racquet drop, where previously I got none.

Maximagq · May 27, 2014

JackB1 said:
I have been doing something like this the past week or so and I was amazed that I actually didn't lose anything, but gained some pace, due to my previous very technically poor serve. By starting this way, I am now actaully able to get a little racquet drop, where previously I got none.

I actually mentioned this on your thread haha.

SystemicAnomaly · May 27, 2014

Just came across a video of Jay Berger serving in a match against Agassi. His motion is not as simple as it should be. In fact, it is rather ugly and it appears that he might not get to a decent trophy position. It looks like he starts with a flawed drop (backscratch) position, (unsuccessfully) attempts to move it to a trophy position and then does an actual racket head drop.

His elbow starts too high and too far forward for that initial dropped position. His elbow seems to be all over the place. He seems to move is toward a conventional trophy position but it does not appear that he ever really gets the elbow to a proper position where it is in line with the shoulder tilt before his "real" racket head drop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6Unmk4r3JQ&t=3m13s

Here, Agassi shows a much better version of the trophy position serve (a half serve motion):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCpjys2heNA

GuyClinch · May 27, 2014

Looking at the video ... Berger might start in the backscratch position but after the toss he moves into about half way between the backscratch and trophy position and then lets the racquet drop before he hits the ball for more power.

I think most people might be better off starting in this halfway position..and some pros will have their students start that way..

pennc94 · May 27, 2014

SFrazeur said:
Never seen his serve and could not find video nor pictures.

-SF

It was so ugly that film could not capture it and survive.

JackB1 · May 27, 2014

SystemicAnomaly said:
Just came across a video of Jay Berger serving in a match against Agassi. His motion is not as simple as it should be. In fact, it is rather ugly and it appears that he might not get to a decent trophy position. It looks like he starts with a flawed drop (backscratch) position, (unsuccessfully) attempts to move it to a trophy position and then does an actual racket head drop.

His elbow starts too high and too far forward for that initial dropped position. His elbow seems to be all over the place. He seems to move is toward a conventional trophy position but it does not appear that he ever really gets the elbow to a proper position where it is in line with the shoulder tilt before his "real" racket head drop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6Unmk4r3JQ&t=3m13s

Here, Agassi shows a much better version of the trophy position serve (a half serve motion):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCpjys2heNA

Agassi's serve there looks very much like what Todd Martin has been doing lately. I think it's useful if you have trouble getting to a good trophy position, since a bad trophy position will only lead to worse things after that. This makes things cleaner and simpler. Kind of like relief pitchers in baseball pitching from the stretch. They don't seem to lose any velocity.

LeeD · May 27, 2014

Most important, at the moment the racket is pointing at the ground, notice that his forearm is 90 degrees or level with the ground.
THAT is what you need to do.
Your forearm is correct, but you hold the racket in a pistol grip and you don't allow the racket to swing back independent of your forearm.

TennisCJC · May 27, 2014

GuyClinch said:
Looking at the video ... Berger might start in the backscratch position but after the toss he moves into about half way between the backscratch and trophy position and then lets the racquet drop before he hits the ball for more power.

I think most people might be better off starting in this halfway position..and some pros will have their students start that way..

Sara Errani was doing that in Italian Open final against Serena. Sara would let the racket head drop down behind her back and then she pulled it back up to a position near trophy position. Then she tossed and hit with a loop into the drop.

I think starting in the trophy position is fine. Todd Martin has done it at times in his career and he hit 130 mph serves. I also think it is a good training method to start in trophy position like the cute girl in blue in the photos just above - see post 16 by SA.

Sometimes I do warm up progressions when hitting a bucket of practice serves. Hit a few from full drop, then a few from trophy, and then work on full motion.

LeeD · May 27, 2014

Is Todd a good example of effectiveness of starting at trophy?
Todd is 6'6", can probably server 130 with his left hand.
I suspect you would lose at least 10 mph serving starting at trophy position, losing the momentum of the full motion.
Like an ATP forehand, if you started with racket back (WTA), you lose some loop swing effect.

NLBwell · May 27, 2014

I've used a Berger-like serve through several eras in my tennis life when recovering from injuries. (Sometimes I also use it just for fun) There is a little bit of velocity lost, but really not much. Jay could hit a reasonably big serve and I believe the short motion can help with your consistency. It makes it harder to hit a variety of serves (at least for me) since you lack the freedom of motion to put the racket in different positions and move it through different trajectories.

LeeD · May 27, 2014

If I remember correctly, Jay could hit twists, tops, top/slices, and flats, although he mostly used some combination of top/slice, since every tournament I saw him play was on clay surfaces, where consistency was more important than speed on serves.

5263 · May 27, 2014

when the timing is right for big servers, there is a bounce off the bottom/back that would be near completely lost with Berger's style.

President · May 27, 2014

5263 said:
when the timing is right for big servers, there is a bounce off the bottom/back that would be near completely lost with Berger's style.

What do you mean a "bounce"....?

5263 · May 27, 2014

President said:
What do you mean a "bounce"....?

There are several aspects to it imo. It's a coordinated timing of the stop point of the shoulder turn, racket drop and leg drive. There is that near perfect moment when timed well when the shoulder turn nears the stop point and the leg drive for launch begins, that loads the racket drop stretch since the racket is still moving or dropping down a bit during a full service motion. The racket drop is extended and the shoulder turn and dip is getting sort of a ssc stretch from the power of the bow/leg drive upwards if the timing is good.

The Berger way would be more like a pitcher just standing there with his shoulders turn and baseball back behind him static,...then starting a pitch.

toly · May 27, 2014

Jay Berger Racquet Drop looks OK?

SystemicAnomaly · May 27, 2014

^ Despite his wandering/erratic elbow and racket, he does appears to get to a decent drop position -- at least as far as this image is concerned. It would be great if we could get a HD/slow-mo video of his service motion to really get a good look at his racket drop and loop after his pseudo-trophy position.

Bottom line is that his erratic elbow/racket at the start of his motion is not something that players should emulate. The Agassi implementation of the half-serve is much cleaner/better in that respect. Perhaps Todd Martin's version as well -- however, I have not looked at Todd's implementation.

GuyClinch · May 27, 2014

Roddick almost uses a half serve motion IMHO. He kinda hurries up into the trophy position at least. So its clearly not a huge problem.

Its just like throwing. You can start with the ball in a trophy like position and throw fine - lots of drills do that. I am not even certain you should think about racquet drop though. I believe you are suppose to think about moving your elbow forward and letting the forearm (and racquet) lag behind..

LeeD · May 27, 2014

Everything works if you can make it work.
Tim Lincicum has a long complicated motion.
Bartolo Colon just brings his right hand back and fires away.
Both used to throw 95's, now closer to lowest 90's.

SystemicAnomaly · May 27, 2014

GuyClinch said:
Roddick almost uses a half serve motion IMHO. He kinda hurries up into the trophy position at least. So its clearly not a huge problem...

Yes, somewhat. Roddick's motion is actually a bit more than the the half-serve. It is really an implementation of an abbreviated takeback. Not quite a simple as it could be tho'. I prefer Jeff Salzenstein's implementation of the abbreviated takeback as a simpler, cleaner model:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrU6C8eilkI&t=77s

user92626 · May 27, 2014

Quick question for anyone who can answer..

For serve, do you suppose to have the "laid back" wrist action like you do with FH (like Nadal's FH)??

Topspin Shot · May 27, 2014

user92626 said:
Quick question for anyone who can answer..

For serve, do you suppose to have the "laid back" wrist action like you do with FH (like Nadal's FH)??

A loose wrist should lay back fully in the drop and flex through contact. It won't flex much past neutral though as pronation kicks in.

SystemicAnomaly · May 27, 2014

^^ The wrist is "cocked" similarly, but not necessarily exactly the same way, it would be for a FH. The wrist bend for the serve is a combination of wrist extension (laid back) and radial deviation. Some of this wrist bending might happen as the racket head is dropped from the trophy. Further bending might occur at the very start of the upward swing from the racket drop. As the arm and racket continues to move upward, the wrist moves to a neutral position at contact. Some may refer to this wrist action as "wrist snap". However, I abhor that term.

Topspin Shot · May 27, 2014

SystemicAnomaly said:
^^ The wrist is "cocked" similarly, but not necessarily exactly the same way, it would be for a FH. The wrist is bend for the serve is a combination of wrist extension (laid back) and radial deviation. Some of this wrist bending might happen as the racket head is dropped from the trophy. Further bending might occur at the very start of the upward swing from the racket drop. As the arm and racket continues to move upward, the wrist moves to a neutral position at contact. Some may refer to this wrist action as "wrist snap". However, I abhor that term.

Yeah forehand is ulnar to radial whereas serve is radial to ulnar. Why don't you like "snap?" I'm ambivalent on the term.

5263 · May 27, 2014

GuyClinch said:
Roddick almost uses a half serve motion IMHO. He kinda hurries up into the trophy position at least. So its clearly not a huge problem.

Its just like throwing. You can start with the ball in a trophy like position and throw fine - lots of drills do that. I am not even certain you should think about racquet drop though. I believe you are suppose to think about moving your elbow forward and letting the forearm (and racquet) lag behind..

Not really much of a serious comparison between Roddick and this Berger serve. Sure, Berger racket drop is ok, but Roddicks is other worldly in all the aspects I mentioned. Is Berger's fine for an avg pro level serve? Yes, it's fine, but not good and clearly not exceptional as I was referencing.

I agree that racket drop isn't something to think about while serving, but if you want a big serve, then you better be thinking about the things that help you get good drop and delayed extension!

Serve the Jay Berger way?

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