There are...the doubles final is available on British Pathe, and a brief clip of the Laver/Rosewall final was on youtube for a while...it is now pulled.The Wimbledon Pro in 67 was televised surely? Surprised there are not any videos of that around.
Apparently, the Queen enjoyed Hoad's performance in the final...she offered him a Knighthood if he would remain an amateur....of course, he accepted $125,00 of Kramer's gold, and turned pro instead.Here is the Wimbledon final in 1957, good resolution in full-screen...the 1956 and 1958 champions facing each other. The level of play is, I think, comparable to yesterday's final in 2015.
An intelligent decision. I wonder how much knighthood pays. Lol.Apparently, the Queen enjoyed Hoad's performance in the final...she offered him a Knighthood if he would remain an amateur....of course, he accepted $125,00 of Kramer's gold, and turned pro instead.
If Hoad had remained amateur,....how many Wimbledon's would he have won? Perhaps...every year from 1956 to 1963, and the amateurs were making more money than the pros by the mid-1960's, which Hoad could have benefitted from.An intelligent decision. I wonder how much knighthood pays. Lol.
Yes, Hoad would have probably won far more classic majors but I doubt if he would have reached the high level of play that he attained in real life because he played competition like the great Pancho Gonzalez. I think overall you would have preferred what actually happened.If Hoad had remained amateur,....how many Wimbledon's would he have won? Perhaps...every year from 1956 to 1963, and the amateurs were making more money than the pros by the mid-1960's, which Hoad could have benefitted from.
Yes, I think that winning the pro tournament bonus pools in 1958 and 1959 represented a much greater achievement for Hoad than anything in amateur tennis, or, indeed, in the later open years with lesser fields.Yes, Hoad would have probably won far more classic majors but I doubt if he would have reached the high level of play that he attained in real life because he played competition like the great Pancho Gonzalez. I think overall you would have preferred what actually happened.
Also, Trabert's analysis of how to play against Djokovic..I think that Tony could have done it.Here are some great dream matches, including a Hoad/McEnroe dream encounter.
http://www.usta.com/us_open_dream_matches/
As good as Djokovic's groundstrokes are, I would pick Trabert on clay, with greater power and serving than Djokovic.Also, Trabert's analysis of how to play against Djokovic..I think that Tony could have done it.
As good as Djokovic's groundstrokes are, I would pick Trabert on clay, with greater power and serving than Djokovic.
That would be an interesting match. To beat Djokovic you have to really force him and perhaps Trabert could. Trabert was also a superior volleyer to Novak.Here are some great dream matches, including a Hoad/McEnroe dream encounter.
http://www.usta.com/us_open_dream_matches/
You are right, the ultimate dream match would be Hoad/Gonzales, and the greatest match they played by their own reckoning was the second Kooyong match in 1958, Hoad winning 4-6, 9-7, 11-9, 18-16.That would be an interesting match. To beat Djokovic you have to really force him and perhaps Trabert could. Trabert was also a superior volleyer to Novak.
I found it silly to compare Bill Tilden to Agassi. Frankly they are in totally differently classes as players. Bud Collins is right in picking Tilden but it probably would be fun to watch.
I would also pick Borg over Djokovic on red clay.
I'm not sure about Rosewall on clay. Novak's overall power and consistency is incredible. I'm not sure if Rosewall had the overall power off the ground even if he used today's racquets to beat Djokovic on red clay. Could Rosewall have gone to the net enough and be effective?
Perhaps the greatest dream match already happened Dan! Hoad versus Gonzalez!
Any opinions on a Rosewall versus Djokovic match on red clay Dan? Let's say it was Rosewall in 1962 versus the Djokovic of 2015. Both at age 28.
You are right, the ultimate dream match would be Hoad/Gonzales, and the greatest match they played by their own reckoning was the second Kooyong match in 1958, Hoad winning 4-6, 9-7, 11-9, 18-16.
Yes, I like Djokovic's chances against Rosewall on any surface. Djokovic, like Rosewall, can return most shots, and with greater power than Rosewall. But I like Trabert against Djokovic on any surface, as you say, partly because of Trabert's volleying superiority.
That would be an interesting match. To beat Djokovic you have to really force him and perhaps Trabert could. Trabert was also a superior volleyer to Novak.
I found it silly to compare Bill Tilden to Agassi. Frankly they are in totally differently classes as players. Bud Collins is right in picking Tilden but it probably would be fun to watch.
I would also pick Borg over Djokovic on red clay.
I'm not sure about Rosewall on clay. Novak's overall power and consistency is incredible. I'm not sure if Rosewall had the overall power off the ground even if he used today's racquets to beat Djokovic on red clay. Could Rosewall have gone to the net enough and be effective?
Perhaps the greatest dream match already happened Dan! Hoad versus Gonzalez!
Any opinions on a Rosewall versus Djokovic match on red clay Dan? Let's say it was Rosewall in 1962 versus the Djokovic of 2015. Both at age 28.
I meant I'm not sure in actual play how Rosewall would match up against Djokovic. Giving the amount of clay majors is fine but you have to put it in context. Gonzalez won two classic grass majors. Rosewall won more classic grass majors. I still would bet on Gonzalez in a grass major final if both were at their peaks. Heck I would bet on Gonzalez if Gonzalez was slightly past his peak like in 1960 on grass. Incidentally Rosewall won I believe six clay majors, not eleven. Some of the French Pros he won were on wood.Not sure about Rosewall on clay?
You've got to be kidding! He was exceptional on clay. It was his best surface ..... How many French Pro titles was it he won .... NINE? Plus the French in '53 (amateur) and '68 (open) plus he beat Laver at the first tournament of the open era, the '68 British Hard Courts?
So .... 11 Clay Majors plus the first open. How many more do you need? .... and I haven't even checked how he did at Bastaad, Gstaad, Hilversuum and Hamburg.
Yes the late 1950s had a very strong and deep group of talent.We have to keep in mind the level of play among the top players of the two eras.
For 1956-60, Gonzales, Hoad, Rosewall, Sedgman, Trabert, Segura, Cooper, Anderson, Olmedo
For today, Djokovic, Federer, Nadal, Murray Wawrinka
The earlier period is much stronger among the top group.
Interesting evaluations...although Hoad and Anderson were probably more gifted players than Gonzales and Cooper respectively, both Gonzales and Cooper won hth series against them, in Hoad's case due to back injury.On Hoad's abilities .... Gonzales said of Hoad (and he should know) that he was the only player he had ever played who could beat him when he was playing his best. The other top pros agreed that when Hoad was motivated and "on", he was unbeatable. Since Gonzales played Kramer, Segura, Sedgeman, Trabert, Rosewall, Mal Anderson and Laver at their primes that puts Hoad above all of them "at his motivated best". Budge and Riggs were past their primes against Gonzales, although a 42 year old Budge beat Gonzales in 1957, when Gonzales had pissed him off and Budge was hot under the collar (and very focused by his anger?).
Unfortunately, unlike Gonzales and later Rosewall, he wasn't always a motivated competitor. Comparing Laver to Rosewall, Stolle said Rose wall is always tough, meaning the when Laver was off he was more beatable than Rosewall. Hoad's loses to Cooper have already been mentioned. Gonzales never lost to Cooper. Ironically, despite Ashley Cooper's excellent amateur record, Mal Anderson turned out to be the better pro player.
Part of Hoad's apparent lack of motivation may have been related, at least in part, to serious back problems. Despite being unbeatable at his best, he never became the world's Number One. It was Rosewall who succeeded Gonzales as Number One, not Hoad.
As strong as Rosewall was on clay, he played in an era of great clay players, and others such as Trabert, Hoad, Davidson, Laver, and even Newcombe could beat him at Roland Garros.Not sure about Rosewall on clay?
You've got to be kidding! He was exceptional on clay. It was his best surface ..... How many French Pro titles was it he won .... NINE? Plus the French in '53 (amateur) and '68 (open) plus he beat Laver at the first tournament of the open era, the '68 British Hard Courts?
So .... 11 Clay Majors plus the first open. How many more do you need? .... and I haven't even checked how he did at Bastaad, Gstaad, Hilversuum and Hamburg.
Remember a significant number of Rosewall French pro's were on indoor wood. He basically has 4 clay French pro's and 1 amateur French championships and one French open. Even so, I would rate him only behind Nadal and Borg in clay achievement.Not sure about Rosewall on clay?
You've got to be kidding! He was exceptional on clay. It was his best surface ..... How many French Pro titles was it he won .... NINE? Plus the French in '53 (amateur) and '68 (open) plus he beat Laver at the first tournament of the open era, the '68 British Hard Courts?
So .... 11 Clay Majors plus the first open. How many more do you need? .... and I haven't even checked how he did at Bastaad, Gstaad, Hilversuum and Hamburg.
Yes Newcombe beat Rosewall in perhaps the strongest French Pro of them all in 1968 at Roland Garros in five sets 6-4 6-1 5-7 1-6 6-4. Incidentally I don't see how the French Pro in 1968 shouldn't still be considered a Pro Major. Why the arbitrary distinction because Open Tennis started? The French Pro in 1967 had a few weaker field and yet someone decided not to rate it a big tournament. The 1967 French Pro had Gimeno, Laver, Rosewall, Ralston, Stolle, Buchholz, MacKay among others. The 1968 French Pro had Laver, Newcombe, Rosewall, Stolle, Gimeno, Roche, Ralston, Drysdale, Gonzalez, Emerson, Taylor, Buchholz, Davies, Pilic. Laver won both tournaments but clearly the 1968 French Pro was bigger and stronger. In some years you can have more tournaments of greater importance than other years. It seems to me Laver's victory in 1968 is more impressive than his win in 1967 but someone decided to use 1967 as the dividing line and not 1968. Yes I do understand the logic but I think when we look at accomplishments we look at the strength of the tournament that the player won. The 1973 Wimbledon is a major won by Kodes in a weakened field. The 1973 US Open was won by Newcombe in a more stronger field. I think Newcombe's win at the US Open is a more impressive achievement.As strong as Rosewall was on clay, he played in an era of great clay players, and others such as Trabert, Hoad, Davidson, Laver, and even Newcombe could beat him at Roland Garros.
Certainly, the pro majors of 1968 appear to be majors...which means that we have about 6 majors for pro players in 1968, the French Open, Wimbledon, U.S. Open, plus Wembley, Roland Garros Pro, U.S. Pro. Laver actually won three majors that year, Rosewall won two.Yes Newcombe beat Rosewall in perhaps the strongest French Pro of them all in 1968 at Roland Garros in five sets 6-4 6-1 5-7 1-6 6-4. Incidentally I don't see how the French Pro in 1968 shouldn't still be considered a Pro Major. Why the arbitrary distinction because Open Tennis started? The French Pro in 1967 had a few weaker field and yet someone decided not to rate it a big tournament. The 1967 French Pro had Gimeno, Laver, Rosewall, Ralston, Stolle, Buchholz, MacKay among others. The 1968 French Pro had Laver, Newcombe, Rosewall, Stolle, Gimeno, Roche, Ralston, Drysdale, Gonzalez, Emerson, Taylor, Buchholz, Davies, Pilic. Laver won both tournaments but clearly the 1968 French Pro was bigger and stronger. In some years you can have more tournaments of greater importance than other years. It seems to me Laver's victory in 1968 is more impressive than his win in 1967 but someone decided to use 1967 as the dividing line and not 1968. Yes I do understand the logic but I think when we look at accomplishments we look at the strength of the tournament that the player won. The 1973 Wimbledon is a major won by Kodes in a weakened field. The 1973 US Open was won by Newcombe in a more stronger field. I think Newcombe's win at the US Open is a more impressive achievement.
Certainly McCauley included the Pro Majors in 1968.
I would tend to agree with you.Certainly, the pro majors of 1968 appear to be majors...which means that we have about 6 majors for pro players in 1968, the French Open, Wimbledon, U.S. Open, plus Wembley, Roland Garros Pro, U.S. Pro. Laver actually won three majors that year, Rosewall won two.
This also raises the issue of how do we assess pro majors from other years when there was a limited or non-existent pro tour, or, indeed, when tournament play was absorbed into a pro tour.Certainly, the pro majors of 1968 appear to be majors...which means that we have about 6 majors for pro players in 1968, the French Open, Wimbledon, U.S. Open, plus Wembley, Roland Garros Pro, U.S. Pro. Laver actually won three majors that year, Rosewall won two.
Hard to say Dan. They still were Pro Majors but the field may be weaker. Isn't the 1973 Wimbledon still a major even with the boycott? Kodes did win it.This also raises the issue of how do we assess pro majors from other years when there was a limited or non-existent pro tour, or, indeed, when tournament play was absorbed into a pro tour.
Does Wembley have less significance in 1950 or 1951, when some of the best players opted out? Obviously, Wembley has no relevance for 1954 or 1955, when it was not held.
Should other tournaments with strong fields be substituted for the standard "pro majors" in some years?
Good points, PC1. I agree with all of them.Hard to say Dan. They still were Pro Majors but the field may be weaker. Isn't the 1973 Wimbledon still a major even with the boycott? Kodes did win it.
I do think a lot of these so call experts tend to overrate the majors because some tournaments may in some years be more powerful and most prestigious than majors. Perhaps tournaments like the 1967 Wimbledon Pro would be bigger than any of the Pro Majors or the 1971 Tennis Champions Classic or the 1959 Tournament of Champions I believe won by Hoad.
To answer your question Dan, I do think the entire year has to be looked at and if some tournaments are super strong like the Masters Round Robin why shouldn't it be looked at with greater reverence that some majors. For example Segura won the 1958 Masters Round Robin with a 6-0 record defeating Gonzalez, Hartwig, Hoad, Trabert, Sedgman and Rosewall. Dare I write that it's an awesome feat! The field was incredible.
Here is an example of how difficult it was to decide a clear champion in 1958 or 1959.Good points, PC1. I agree with all of them.
1973 Wimbledon and 1973 French Open were officially majors, like some of the weaker Australian championships, but in reality carried less prestige than the WCT final, and the top event that year was the U.S. Open by far. Also, Davis Cup was very strong that year. On that basis, I would give Newcombe the top spot for 1973. with Smith number two. I think that Nastase's year was overrated, similar to Kodes, although both had good years.
The 1950 Wembley was very weak, with only van Horn opposed to Gonzales, the outcome almost predetermined. Surely, Gonzales' win at Philadelphia over Kramer was a much more impressive showing.
The Kramer Tournaments of Champions series (1956 L.A., 1957/58/59 Forest Hills, 1959 Sydney) seemed to be Kramer's attempt to construct a super-tournament for the pro season, surpassing all other events. Obviously, the 1959 Tournament of Champions at Forest Hills had the strongest field and prestige of these events, similar to the 1967 Wimbledon Pro and 1970/71 TCC, although the latter was almost like an extended event or mini-tour.
Some majors have always been weakened occasionally by the absence of top players, such as the 1938 majors which Budge won, absent von Cramm, Vines, Perry due to special reasons.
The reasonable thing to do is to look at each year individually and assess the major events on their merits.
Vic Braden wrote in his book Tennis 2000 that he felt Gonzalez's serve would be regularly in the 140 mph range and that was in the late 1990s when the book was published. You can assume Hoad wouldn't be far behind.Here is an example of how difficult it was to decide a clear champion in 1958 or 1959.
Note that Gonzales' serve is rated at 112 mph., using the measuring equipment of the day. Hoad's serve was similarly measured at 110 mph, and these are cannonballs.
http://www.si.com/vault/1959/07/06/605871/the-kramer-cast-lacks-a-plot
I would assume that Braden is thinking about current measuring methods.Vic Braden wrote in his book Tennis 2000 that he felt Gonzalez's serve would be regularly in the 140 mph range and that was in the late 1990s when the book was published. You can assume Hoad wouldn't be far behind.
Thing about Gonzalez was not only the speed but he had great placement of his serve.
I forgot to mention that Braden wrote using the technology of that time which was the late 1990s to 2000.I would assume that Braden is thinking about current measuring methods.
Certainly, the pro majors of 1968 appear to be majors...which means that we have about 6 majors for pro players in 1968, the French Open, Wimbledon, U.S. Open, plus Wembley, Roland Garros Pro, U.S. Pro. Laver actually won three majors that year, Rosewall won two.
There were many reports in the 1950's of Gonzales' serve at 112 mph, which used the measurement of the serve at the END of its' trajectory, while today we measure the speed at the instant of leaving the tennis racquet. This would account for the much faster speeds recorded recently.I forgot to mention that Braden wrote using the technology of that time which was the late 1990s to 2000.
George, there were many years during the amateur/pro split where each year had a variable number of important pro tournaments, and sometimes they changed locations from one year to the next. There was no Wembley event in 1954 or1955, and Wembley in 1950 had only one notable player in the field, Gonzales, who won the event. Was this a major? I would say not, but I would grant major status to the Philadelphia tournament of that same year, where Gonzales defeated a strong Kramer in the final.You can't really compare apples and oranges. If you limit modern players to the BIG FOUR, you can't allow more than 4 majors in 1968 if you want to make a fair comparison. As the 1968 Australian was amateur, the 4th most prestigious would have been the Pacific Southwest. It had an even better field than the French Open, which the "Handsome Eight" were prevented from playing.
From "Tennis 2000" by Vic Braden---"What always impressed me about Pancho Gonzalez's serve was not his speed, but the fact that fundamentally he had a flawless stroke and normally it with 60 to 70 percent accuracy on his first serve. He didn't have one hitch or one wasted motion; he never made any muscles work against him. He hit the ball harder than anyone, yet his motion was so fluid that he never had upper arm and shoulder problems. At 18-all in the third set, back in the days before the tie-breaker, he would still be hitting rhythmically and throwing in bombs.There were many reports in the 1950's of Gonzales' serve at 112 mph, which used the measurement of the serve at the END of its' trajectory, while today we measure the speed at the instant of leaving the tennis racquet. This would account for the much faster speeds recorded recently.
Fascinating stuff, pc1.From "Tennis 2000" by Vic Braden---"What always impressed me about Pancho Gonzalez's serve was not his speed, but the fact that fundamentally he had a flawless stroke and normally it with 60 to 70 percent accuracy on his first serve. He didn't have one hitch or one wasted motion; he never made any muscles work against him. He hit the ball harder than anyone, yet his motion was so fluid that he never had upper arm and shoulder problems. At 18-all in the third set, back in the days before the tie-breaker, he would still be hitting rhythmically and throwing in bombs.
Even in the 1960s, when he was winning matches at Wimbledon at the age of forty-one, Gonzalez was still the greatest server in the game because he generated his power with rhythm and the proper use of each body link, rather than brute strength. At the old Madison Square Garden, wrestling mats were hooked up in the corridors downstairs and you could find Pancho warming up there beforea match, working on his serving motion. He would throw the ball up and just swing nice and easy, trying to make sure there were no hitches in his swing. Sometimes he would even use a ball; he would almost close his eyes and go through the serving motion, trying to sense the rhythm of his swing rather than the isolated movements of his body.
Out on the court, whatever he did while serving or preparing to serve was calculated to keep himself relaxed. He never bounced the ball hard on the court. He never game his motion excess gyrations. When he walked to the line he would try to shrug his shoulders an shake his arms loose. He looked so calm you would think, "Why doesn't he get excited?" The first time one of my students, Jeff Austin, faced Gorgo's serve, his motion was so easy that Jeff thought Gorgo was going to take it easy on him 'cause he was just a kid. But when Gorgo uncorked the ball right down the middle, Jeff wasn't ready and it scared the heck out of him. I have no doubt Gonzalez would have served in the 140 m.p.h. zone with today's rackets. But a bigger issue is that he would have done it with very little force on his shoulder and elbow. In contrast, power servers like Greg Rusedski (143 m.p.h. in the 1997 U.S. Open) and Pete Sampras hit with a style that places their shoulder and elbow in great jeopardy."
Thanks Dan. I think it's very possible imo that Gonzalez had the greatest weapon in the history of tennis with his serve. Hoad's probably not that far behind. I think Kramer is very comparable also and maybe a couple of others.Fascinating stuff, pc1.
The interview here with Hoad gives some idea of the great public anticipation of his pending series with Gonzales.Here is an appearance by a famous guest in the early moments of "What's My Line".
Guess who?
Interesting how they ask Hoad about his debut as a pro at Forest Hills that same day against Sedgman.Here is an appearance by a famous guest in the early moments of "What's My Line". Guess who?
Hoad seemed to generate a sense of awe with those sports fans he encountered in person.Here is an appearance by a famous guest in the early moments of "What's My Line". Guess who?
Great article Dan but I have to correct you. It was Roy Emerson who picked Hoad as the GOAT. Emerson was at Newcombe's tennis camp. Nevertheless so many have picked Hoad as the GOAT.Hoad seemed to generate a sense of awe with those sports fans he encountered in person.
Here is a recent article citing John Newcombe's pick of Hoad as the GOAT.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/mad-dogs-tennis-game-has-plenty-of-bite-1442015682
I double-checked...right you are. Emmo it was.Great article Dan but I have to correct you. It was Roy Emerson who picked Hoad as the GOAT. Emerson was at Newcombe's tennis camp. Nevertheless so many have picked Hoad as the GOAT.
Speaking of Emmo, here is an event earlier this year featuring four famous Aussie players, all of whom were dominated by Hoad.I double-checked...right you are. Emmo it was.
Very nice video Dan.Speaking of Emmo, here is an event earlier this year featuring four famous Aussie players, all of whom were dominated by Hoad.
Quiz: can you identify each one?
The complete matches are certainly still available with the BBC, which has not seen fit to release them in DVD form, much to our disadvantage.Hoad's last great singles win was probably the Wimbledon Professional quarter-final in 1967 against Gonzales.
Here are the available clips of that great event, which featured Laver's possibly greatest ever performance in the singles final against Rosewall.
and the doubles, with Gonzales, this would be Gonzales' only Wimbledon title, doubles championship.