2016 - The year of a tweener?

Joonas · Jan 7, 2016

Seems like 2016 is a year when tweeners swarm in big time. Pure Drive and its sons and ******* sons are taking over:
-Roger paved the way already earlier with tweenerlike RF A
-David Ferrer made a switch to PD+ just now
-Chris Edwards made a switch to PD+

-4/14 TW play testers rock PD or PD+ and two more AI100 (one of the ******* sons) so almost half of them rock indisputable tweeners!!
-Power Player switched to Extreme Pro
-Head gave up giving Prestige the steroids - XT returned to Prestige MP to low SW, low power boredom
-I am switching to PD or PD+
-There are whispers that several TT heroes are thinking about wider frame and lower static weight!

Is this the zeitgeist or is my vision just polarized (by Graphene dust)?!

KYHacker · Jan 7, 2016

Nope, I just gave up and decided to join the dark side as well.

Joonas · Jan 7, 2016

Dark side life is sinfully good.
What are you swinging KY?

joohan · Jan 7, 2016

Don't be ridiculous. Nothing feels as good as scorching a backhand down-the-line with a proper mid. Nothing.

bobombom · Jan 7, 2016

joohan said:
Don't be ridiculous. Nothing feels as good as scorching a backhand down-the-line with a proper mid. Nothing.

I personally don't use a tweener, but nothing feels as good as winning. If that means using a tweener...

PhxRacket · Jan 7, 2016

bobombom said:
I personally don't use a tweener, but nothing feels as good as winning. If that means using a tweener...

The power of the dark side is great. I have been using BLX Blade 98, but have been demoing mostly tweeters...whew it is a game changer for the older, but capable player.

robbo1970 · Jan 7, 2016

Using a tweener is fine and if it makes you enjoy your tennis then why the heck not.

Sometimes we'll go out regularly and we play it safe with a few beers.....that's our tweener. But sometimes it's nice to enjoy that glass of champagne, which is our mid

bobombom · Jan 7, 2016

If it helps you win, by all means, use it (within the rules of the game of course).

leohaegger · Jan 7, 2016

bobombom said:
I personally don't use a tweener, but nothing feels as good as winning. If that means using a tweener...

This, Bro! THIS!!

I used to have Prestige MP and now i am using Yonex DR98 (not a tweener, but close for me). Now i win matches easier than before. The racquet has a classic stability with power and speed that suits a modern game.

n8dawg6 · Jan 7, 2016

i think the year came a lot sooner than 2016 ...

Backhanded Compliment · Jan 7, 2016

joohan said:
Don't be ridiculous. Nothing feels as good as scorching a backhand down-the-line with a proper mid. Nothing.

except for hitting an on the run backhand out wide corner to corner winner ala Stefan Edberg with a mid... that one makes even non tennis people who live across the street from the park stand up and cheer.

leohaegger said:
This, Bro! THIS!!

I used to have Prestige MP and now i am using Yonex DR98 (not a tweener, but close for me). Now i win matches easier than before. The racquet has a classic stability with power and speed that suits a modern game.

I cant argue this, whatever works for you! Congrats... I think many play with frames they shouldnt out of some macho need. The DR98 does look like a real winner for a lot of players and I am glad to see Yonex come out with a frame that bucks the stiffer is better trend. You can have more power and comfort if you need it without RA70 sticks.

The_Racketeer · Jan 7, 2016

Strange but I actually play my best tennis with my TC95. I've gone the opposite direction with my racquets over the last 2 years, from the Warrior 100 now to my TC95 (thin beam, flexy, mid+). To each their own.

TennisHound · Jan 7, 2016

This started off like a political ad.To some its a tweener year I guess. Tweener is just a term though. RF is not a tweener, and the XTPrestige? Anyway, tweener was basically a term for the APD and PD (yes I know other racquets fall withing the 10.6oz 100"range ). IMO this is the year for the heavy tweener.

KYHacker · Jan 7, 2016

joohan said:
Don't be ridiculous. Nothing feels as good as scorching a backhand down-the-line with a proper mid. Nothing.

Haha. A screaming running forehand up the line feels pretty good too!

Keeping my Volkl O10 Mids but will be playing competitively with a weighted up APD. 12oz, 325SW. So, TennisHound, I guess that's the very definition of a heavy tweener.

Dominic · Jan 7, 2016

Yea, this is odd, im starting to think about switching to a PDT or Extreme Pro..im just so consistent with these 'new age' rackets...starting to understand all the fuss, and why the youngsters are using them...

sma1001 · Jan 8, 2016

I use a PB 10 mid and LM Radical MP. But i did think "wow, this is so easy" when i hit with the Pure Aero Tour recently. Pity that i'm not sure my arm could take it...

Joonas · Jan 8, 2016

Can't argue with the pleasure of painting lines. Can't argue with the placing a serve in a corner with a mid. Can't argue with the disappointment of losing matches despite some world class winning points. Can't argue the effect of windy conditions with a heavy demanding racket. Can't argue with correcting your shot after a bad bounce in clay with a tweener...

Can't argue how tired I am to keep losing because I am stubborn.

n8dawg6 · Jan 8, 2016

Joonas said:
Can't argue how tired I am to keep losing because I am stubborn.

aw cmon man, keep playin w a heavy ass players frame and getting your ass whipped by inferior players with APDs! it'll pay off one day ... or not.

im just messing. i do hear ya though. i remember when i was just starting league play with my trusty head prestige S and i came up against these dudes that were putting all kinds of spin on their strokes at the flick of a wrist. i didnt understand how big a difference the racquet made until i tried one myself ...

Joonas · Jan 8, 2016

n8dawg6 said:
i remember when i was just starting league play with my trusty head prestige S and i came up against these dudes that were putting all kinds of spin on their strokes at the flick of a wrist. i didnt understand how big a difference the racquet made until i tried one myself ...

This.

I am told by my hitting partners that with GPrestige MP I can really do damage with pace and accuracy. In the corners and the lines. And this obviously flatters my confidence. But I score better with PD - without that pace but perhaps more spin and without that accuracy. My coach calls that this is where tennis begins. You have to build that point. You have to work that point and then close the point.

SpinToWin · Jan 8, 2016

Perhaps not the year of the tweener… Maybe the year of the modern player's frame? I see increasingly more people using such frames and increasingly more frames fitting this category. Classical player's frames are becoming ever rarer.

By the way, does a heavy tweener still count as a tweener? I thought a main attribute of tweeners was their lowish weight.

Joonas · Jan 8, 2016

SpinToWin said:
Perhaps not the year of the tweener… Maybe the year of the modern player's frame? I see increasingly more people using such frames and increasingly more frames fitting this category. Classical player's frames are becoming ever rarer.

By the way, does a heavy tweener still count as a tweener? I thought a main attribute of tweeners was their lowish weight.

Guys, what is a tweener or modern players frame to you? Mind that lot of pros play PD and APD which necessarily are not weighted low...

I would include Extreme Pro, PD Tour / Roddick, Ai/DR98 to tweener / modern players frame. Not only about light weight but perhaps more about wide body.

Buford T Justice · Jan 8, 2016

joohan said:
Don't be ridiculous. Nothing feels as good as scorching a backhand down-the-line with a proper mid. Nothing.

No doubt on this. My problem is, with something like a PS85, I can only do this 1 out of every 10 shots

With a Blade 98, those odds go up notably, thus the use of that racquet.

I recall a couple of years ago using a PS85 for a month or so and really loving it. I almost convinced myself I could use it full time as it was such a sweet feeling hitting ball with that racquet (even though pace/spin was obviously down from what I was using before). But, it was addictive and I enjoyed trying to play a more "old school" type game. Well, all that enjoyment rapidly disappeared when harder hitting guys using Babolats started to blow me off the court!

So in reality (as much as I think generalizations are silly with something like this because we are all different), all else equal, it seems that everyone ends up playing better with a larger more modern racquet. The all else equal is the thing to consider. All practical evidence seems to point to this conclusion. How many current pros use an 85? How many former pros who used to use a 65-85 as their bread winner still use one when on the senior tour? Sampras, Edberg?

SpinToWin · Jan 8, 2016

Joonas said:
Guys, what is a tweener or modern players frame to you? Mind that lot of pros play PD and APD which necessarily are not weighted low...

I would include Extreme Pro, PD Tour / Roddick, Ai/DR98 to tweener / modern players frame. Not only about light weight but perhaps more about wide body.

I was under the impression that the Extreme Pro (as well as the others) is a modern player's frame, as it has the specs of a player's frame yet the design of a more powerful frame. The PS 97S is a modern player's frame due to the opposite logic, specs of a powerful light frame but the design of a player's frame. Classical player's frames to me are frames with a high static weight and a quite HL balance with a low powered/control oriented design… When somebody uses the characteristics of a player's frame but attempts to make it more viable for the modern game in one way or another, that is a modern player's frame to me (they still deserve to be called player's frames as they require a certain level of technique to be used effectively I would say).

I suppose there is no consensus on this topic though, lots of grey areas.

joohan · Jan 8, 2016

Buford T Justice said:
Well, all that enjoyment rapidly disappeared when harder hitting guys using Babolats started to blow me off the court!

I played doubles yesterday against Babolat guys with my midsize racquet and I can relate to this sentiment. Some angles and touch volleys put a lasting smile on my face, though.

Buford T Justice said:
all else equal, it seems that everyone ends up playing better with a larger more modern racquet

Yes. Hard to argue with that.

Joonas · Jan 8, 2016

Lot of grey areas here.

For me PD is way less powerful than Graphene Prestige MP or Yonex VCore Tour G330 when hit clean. But PD gives me decent power and spin even when not hit too clean. And this applies to Extreme Pro as well. For me this is a tweener behaviour.

At the end of the day I don't care about labels so much though. But I could think of traditional frames with thin beam and then the others with more or less tweener attributes. But better playing should result in more win?

Game improvement rackets anyone?

SpinToWin · Jan 8, 2016

Joonas said:
Lot of grey areas here.

For me PD is way less powerful than Graphene Prestige MP or Yonex VCore Tour G330 when hit clean. But PD gives me decent power and spin even when not hit too clean. And this applies to Extreme Pro as well. For me this is a tweener behaviour.

At the end of the day I don't care about labels so much though. But I could think of traditional frames with thin beam and then the others with more or less tweener attributes. But better playing should result in more win?

Game improvement rackets anyone?

Yeah very much true, but I just love that easy power on tap (especially on serve and returns) with higher swingweights and tweener designs are too uncontrollable for my taste with such specs haha

richardc-s · Jan 8, 2016

Well I used to play with a Babolat Pure Aero but switched to a PS85... I'm trend setting in the opposite direction

KYHacker · Jan 8, 2016

Well, the deciding factor for me has been playing competitive juniors. When I am fresh, the heaviness of my ball off my Volkl mid blows through the court and really hurts them. But, about 60 minutes in, the tables get turned when my racquet head speed and footwork get sloppier from fatigue.

So, I think a mix of most of a significant portion of the weight of my normal frames and the power of the tweener should help my consistency. SpinToWin, I have been down this road before and, as you mention, control has suffered. Hoping to find a way around that with customization and string setup. I may just have to hit so big that it doesn't matter! Lol

Buford T Justice · Jan 8, 2016

KYHacker said:
When I am fresh, the heaviness of my ball off my Volkl mid blows through the court and really hurts them. But, about 60 minutes in, the tables get turned

Another good point! Ive learned this lesson as well......about 7 years ago, I was playing with old school Wilson ceramic 95 frames (loved those racquets), as they could seriously crush a ball. As time has passed, Ive found that I simply cant swing that 13 oz stick for very long, so while I might play great for 20-30minutes (I am 43 not 13

), after that it goes downhill

Buford T Justice · Jan 8, 2016

joohan said:
Some angles and touch volleys put a lasting smile on my face, though.

.

Yes......I recall hitting some very sweet volleys with the 85 (and after admiring myself internally) I remember thinking "how can I make this racquet work?!?!?!?" It was very sweet. Then, Id lose the next 5 points because of the small head and Id be back to reality

n8dawg6 · Jan 8, 2016

"a man's got to know his limitations"

Buford T Justice · Jan 8, 2016

n8dawg6 said:
"a man's got to know his limitations"

Buford T Justice · Jan 8, 2016

Turbo-87 · Jan 8, 2016

^^ Ah, the days where you had to write for more information.

richardc-s · Jan 8, 2016

Buford T Justice said:
Yes......I recall hitting some very sweet volleys with the 85 (and after admiring myself internally) I remember thinking "how can I make this racquet work?!?!?!?" It was very sweet. Then, Id lose the next 5 points because of the small head and Id be back to reality

Yes I'm a bit like that! I hit some lovely shots with my 85, think I'm Sampras himself, and then follow it up with some complete garbage!

I personally only play for fun so I'm happy to sacrifice some consistency if it means I can play with a racket which occasionally hits beastly shots!

Joonas · Jan 8, 2016

n8dawg6 said:
"a man's got to know his limitations"

Rec players seem not be so good in this.
Get beaten by a complete pusher helps though

I Have a personal story:
I faced a guy near to his 50s lately in local tournament. He looked messy, clothes hanging, shoes from a decade and carried two PDs (coincidence to this topic though). I think he didn't even bring a bottle of water. Nice guy though. So we warmed up a bit, he had no technique, after few minutes he asked do i want to start. I said I would prefer few serves first and let's "toss the coin" after. It was my second match for that day so I was basically warm but wanted to keep the routine nevertheless.

We started, I lost my serve. Thought that its ok. Just put the ball in. I noticed his arms and he is in good shape. Not big but tight like construction workers.

Next changeover I was 3-0 down. Slight despair started to creep in but I kept cool. This is my match I just need to relax. 5-0 down I took few games and lost the first 6-3.

Some guys of our club walked by and asked what is going on. "J just relax and step in", "Put some pressure and play your game", "play forward, move forward as you normally do", "You can't lose this match!" And of course I knew all this. But I just could not make it happen. I was puzzled. Ok, I took the second set 6-2. I felt I cracked it. But I didn't. Just to lose the third 6-2.

So what actually happened? The guy was a architype of The Retriever described in Brad Gilberts winning ugly. He had unbelievable legs. He ran balls that I only see juniors running. He managed to put his racket in front of the ball always. Even the hardest serves I pounded. I aced maybe only twice and I normally serve big. His balls had nothing behind them. So they mainly dropped to about service lines. I had to move forward all the time.

But what really happened was that I got desperate. I was not being smart enough and he kept doing what he does well. I think I played with Blade 98 18x20 so the racket was not even too heavy or anything. But later I have got to notice that PD type of frame allows me to control balls with spin when there is no pace. It made me think that I should need to try to play little different. And the racket choice should support that.

movdqa · Jan 8, 2016

Seems like this thread is at odds with the other threads talking about 350-400 SWs and arm health.

Joonas · Jan 8, 2016

This thread is about mental health

PhxRacket · Jan 8, 2016

I would like to enjoy a return to the game I loved as a junior and college player. But to enjoy something, sometimes winning is important, and winning requires the proper training, technique and, at an advanced age, equipment. I am not trying to argue for using a Big Bubba, but I would like to have easier power and easier transitions from defense to offense. I love my old BLX Blade 98 and have been blowing some competition off the court with it. But some of the demos I have used...oh boy!!!!

bobombom · Jan 8, 2016

SpinToWin said:
Perhaps not the year of the tweener… Maybe the year of the modern player's frame? I see increasingly more people using such frames and increasingly more frames fitting this category. Classical player's frames are becoming ever rarer.

By the way, does a heavy tweener still count as a tweener? I thought a main attribute of tweeners was their lowish weight.

I agree with this sentiment. I use a "modern players frame" and I think that's the direction most are moving. By definition, a weighted "tweener" category racquet should qualify as a players frame of the modern variety haha.

movdqa · Jan 8, 2016

PhxRacket said:
I would like to enjoy a return to the game I loved as a junior and college player. But to enjoy something, sometimes winning is important, and winning requires the proper training, technique and, at an advanced age, equipment. I am not trying to argue for using a Big Bubba, but I would like to have easier power and easier transitions from defense to offense. I love my old BLX Blade 98 and have been blowing some competition off the court with it. But some of the demos I have used...oh boy!!!!

Can't you get easier power with a heavier racquet?

n8dawg6 · Jan 8, 2016

Joonas said:
Rec players seem not be so good in this.
Get beaten by a complete pusher helps though

I Have a personal story:
I faced a guy near to his 50s lately in local tournament. He looked messy, clothes hanging, shoes from a decade and carried two PDs (coincidence to this topic though). I think he didn't even bring a bottle of water. Nice guy though. So we warmed up a bit, he had no technique, after few minutes he asked do i want to start. I said I would prefer few serves first and let's "toss the coin" after. It was my second match for that day so I was basically warm but wanted to keep the routine nevertheless.

We started, I lost my serve. Thought that its ok. Just put the ball in. I noticed his arms and he is in good shape. Not big but tight like construction workers.

Next changeover I was 3-0 down. Slight despair started to creep in but I kept cool. This is my match I just need to relax. 5-0 down I took few games and lost the first 6-3.

Some guys of our club walked by and asked what is going on. "J just relax and step in", "Put some pressure and play your game", "play forward, move forward as you normally do", "You can't lose this match!" And of course I knew all this. But I just could not make it happen. I was puzzled. Ok, I took the second set 6-2. I felt I cracked it. But I didn't. Just to lose the third 6-2.

So what actually happened? The guy was a architype of The Retriever described in Brad Gilberts winning ugly. He had unbelievable legs. He ran balls that I only see juniors running. He managed to put his racket in front of the ball always. Even the hardest serves I pounded. I aced maybe only twice and I normally serve big. His balls had nothing behind them. So they mainly dropped to about service lines. I had to move forward all the time.

But what really happened was that I got desperate. I was not being smart enough and he kept doing what he does well. I think I played with Blade 98 18x20 so the racket was not even too heavy or anything. But later I have got to notice that PD type of frame allows me to control balls with spin when there is no pace. It made me think that I should need to try to play little different. And the racket choice should support that.

been there done that. i got beat by a pusher using a PRESTRUNG babolat. he retrieved every ball. the more times the ball came back, the harder i tried to hit it past him. got tired, UEs went up. it was ugly ... so so ugly. lost 6-7, 5-7. i had a complete meltdown and quit tennis ... until the next day.

painful learning experience. slow is smooth and smooth is fast ...

PhxRacket · Jan 8, 2016

Of course. If it were 1986 and I was a 19 year old serve and volleyer, I would want the heaviest, mightiest stick available. However, as the game has changed and grinding out points has become an more prevalent strategy and playing style, methinks lighter is better sometimes. Particularly doubles-where I have spent most of my time since rejoining the game.

movdqa · Jan 8, 2016

PhxRacket said:
Of course. If it were 1986 and I was a 19 year old serve and volleyer, I would want the heaviest, mightiest stick available. However, as the game has changed and grinding out points has become an more prevalent strategy and playing style, methinks lighter is better sometimes. Particularly doubles-where I have spent most of my time since rejoining the game.

You don't have to use the power of a heavy stick to attack all the time. You can use a heavy stick to make it easier to play a grinder-style as well.

Andy Murray is a pretty good example of this. I'd say Djokovic used to be a good example but he's more of an attacking player today.

n8dawg6 · Jan 8, 2016

light stick is more forgiving of bad timing too. if you get planted,
start the swing, then realize that you're a little off ... just improvise and arm it with the light stick. heavy stick you're SOL. its a question of degree based on your playing level, of course

movdqa · Jan 8, 2016

n8dawg6 said:
light stick is more forgiving of bad timing too. if you get planted,
start the swing, then realize that you're a little off ... just improvise and arm it with the light stick. heavy stick you're SOL. its a question of degree based on your playing level, of course

You can just block the ball with a heavy stick, especially if the incoming ball has any pace on it. The heavy racquet just reflects the power back.

If you do have good preparation, you can often get a pretty good hit with a heavy frame.

The best reason to use a heavy, flexible frame is arm health, and that's particularly important as you get older.

PhxRacket · Jan 8, 2016

True, true

Turbo-87 · Jan 8, 2016

movdqa said:
You can just block the ball with a heavy stick, especially if the incoming ball has any pace on it. The heavy racquet just reflects the power back.

I have noticed this with the odd combo of racquets in my bag, a Pure Drive Tour and a Prince Textreme Tour 100T. I find that I have to be more on my game with the lighter racquet and the PDT can allow me to get lazy with blocks, especially on one handed backhand service returns. The PDT it just more tolerant and capable for me against big hitters combined with my laziness that particular night. I do play a lot more with the Prince because it is so darn maneuverable and nice to play with when my head and body are in the game. Admittedly, my game is more off than on due to work, grueling gym workouts, etc. Tennis is just a hobby.

n8dawg6 · Jan 8, 2016

movdqa said:
The best reason to use a heavy, flexible frame is arm health, and that's particularly important as you get older.

I resemble that comment!

Buford T Justice · Jan 8, 2016

n8dawg6 said:
been there done that. i got beat by a pusher using a PRESTRUNG babolat. he retrieved every ball. the more times the ball came back, the harder i tried to hit it past him. got tired, UEs went up. it was ugly ... so so ugly. lost 6-7, 5-7.

I can even do worse than this

I lost a few years ago to someone (a good pal) using a Walmart $19.96 Federer pre-strung! He used this racquet for an entire Ultimate Tennis season at 6.0- and actually did fine with it. In fact, he would cave the frame in before the strings broke, bring it back to Walmart, get another, and repeat. It was cheaper than restringing! Meanwhile, Mr.Prissy over here needs a racquet just so, strings just so......and loses.

The good news is, he now uses a Babolat APD at least.

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